₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135281209][/quote]Perhaps God hasn't shown you that you are wrong for centering on your belief. "It is more blessed to give than to receive", says Jesus.

"Who told you I'm not a giver? I said I’d gladly share how faithful God has been to me—not because of my giving, but because of His love. I give, not to get something in return or to earn His favor, but because He has already blessed me. My God is always proactive. I give as a response to His goodness, not as a way to provoke his blessings as you do claim. He is not a transactional God—He is a loving God. So stop misrepresenting Him."

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135281209][/quote]
"For God so loved the world(ADAMAH, the race of man) that he gave his only begotten(unique) Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM(through heart one believes unto salvation) shall not perish but have everlasting life." (Emphasis added). "Simply loved" is seen in His outgoing love for the race of man regardless (Iran ENIA ki nse ti awon Angeli). No reservation! What work did Adam do for God for making provisions for him before he created him? Tell me! Nothing! "For not doing anything for my mother for breastfeeding, clothing, and sending me to school" is reserved in the eternal plan of the Creator who decreed procreation_God is multiplying Himself for you and I have His spirit! For survival purpose, the Eternal God ordered man TO DRESS AND KEEP THE GARDEN. Man, God hates laziness! Paul equally said anyone who wouldn't work should not eat. The same goes for giving(tithe inclusive)!


God's unconditional love—that before Adam lifted a finger, God had already provided for him. That truth is echoed in the gospel: “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:. God’s love is not transactional—it’s initiating, generous, and undeserved.

John 3:16 is indeed a powerful declaration of divine love for “the world”. His love is not based on our merit but on His nature. And yes, man was created to walk in relationship and responsibility God did place Adam in the garden "to dress and keep it" (Genesis 2:15). Work, in that sense, is not a curse but a calling.

But we must be careful not to mix categories. The gospel is not about earning—not by works, giving, or even tithing. Salvation is “not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9). We work because we are saved, not to be saved. We give not to earn favor but in response to grace. and you need to get this fact.

I'm not disputing that God hates laziness (as Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:10), but He does not base our salvation—or even His initial provision—on our labor. Grace precedes effort.

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135281209][/quote]You show your true self here! God's words are not man's. DAVID DID NOT WRITE THE SCRIPTURE FROM HIS OWN WILL.(2 Timothy 3:16). In Matthew 22:43, we have:
"He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord,..." How then did he have limited understanding of God's dealings when Jesus said it was the Spirit that enabled him write? I am wondering?

Hebrews 1:1–2 tells us that while God spoke in various ways through the prophets, He has now spoken to us by His Son—indicating that Christ is the fullest and clearest revelation of God's nature.

John 1:18 affirms this: “No one has ever seen God, but the only Son... has made Him known.”

Likewise, Colossians 2:9 declares that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.” In Him, the character of God is not shadowed, but fully revealed.

I am not denying that David spoke by the Spirit; rather, I’m recognizing that the revelation available to him was partial. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:9,12, “we know in part... we see through a glass, darkly.” David’s psalms are indeed divinely inspired, but they are expressed through the lens of the Old Covenant.

Psalm 18:26, for instance, reflects this perspective: “With the pure You show Yourself pure; and with the crooked You show Yourself shrewd.” This presents a view of God responding in kind to human behavior—appearing to mirror moral states. However, in the life and teachings of Jesus, we see a deeper, fuller reality: God is consistently merciful and gracious, even toward the undeserving.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 5:44–45 that God “makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good,” and in Luke 6:35–36, that “He is kind to the unthankful and evil... therefore be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Nowhere does Jesus portray the Father as “shrewd” toward sinners; rather, He reveals a God who is redemptive even in the face of rebellion.

So while Psalm 18:26 is inspired and true, it does not represent the full scope of God’s heart as revealed in Christ. It is a true word within a partial light—a shadow cast by the greater glory that has now dawned in the face of Jesus Christ.

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135281209][/quote]Let me respectfully clarify where I stand: I’m not a “Pro New Testament Christian” — I’m pro-Christ. My foundation is not built on a portion of Scripture, but on the person of Christ, in whom all Scripture finds its fulfillment and meaning. As Jesus Himself said, “These are the Scriptures that testify about Me” (John 5:39). Both the Old and New Testaments are inspired by God, and as you rightly noted, they are deeply intertwined — one gives birth to the other, much like a seed produces a tree.

As is often said:
“The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed.”
That’s why I read the Old Testament through the lens of Christ — not to discard it, but to discern how it points to Him. Every law, symbol, judgment, and act of mercy ultimately leads to Christ, who is the perfect revelation of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).

Yes, God is sovereign and beyond our full comprehension. Yes, He has executed judgment in Scripture. But I do not label this His “dark side” — rather, I call it His righteous justice. He judged Egypt, yet preserved Israel — both actions rooted in His covenant faithfulness. Yet all the weight of that justice and mercy converged at the cross, where Christ bore what we deserved and gave us what we never could earn.

To be clear, I do not disregard the Old Testament. I honor it — but I interpret it through Christ, who declared that He came not to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). Jesus and the apostles quoted the Old Testament not to reinforce the old covenant as still binding, but to reveal how it pointed to something greater — a new and living way. As Hebrews 8:13 says, “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”

God’s acts of judgment under the old covenant were based on His relationship with Israel under the Law. But now, through Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20), we have a new covenant, where mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13), and salvation is offered not by works or fear, but by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9).

You mentioned Isaiah 45:7 and Psalm 18 — and you’re right: they reflect the awe and mystery of God. But as Hebrews 1:1–2 reminds us, God once spoke in fragments and shadows through the prophets, but now He has spoken fully through His Son. In Christ, we no longer just see mystery — we see the Father’s heart made visible in grace, truth, and love (John 1:14–18).


So again, I don’t reject the Old Testament — I just refuse to interpret it apart from the One who fulfilled it. That’s not weakness; that’s alignment with the heart of God.

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135274624][/quote]When I say you're still forming your view of God based on Old Covenant acts rather than the full revelation of God in Christ, you seem to think I'm exaggerating. But the very fact that you describe God as both “good and wicked” shows how limited your understanding of Him truly is.

1 John 1:5 says,
“God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.”
Where, then, do you get the idea that wickedness is part of His nature?

Any knowledge of God that is not rooted in Christ is incomplete—a shadow.
You quoted Psalm 18:24–26, but those verses reflect David’s limited understanding of God’s dealings, not the full light of His character revealed in Christ.

Now compare that to Romans 5:8,
“But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
How do you reconcile this sacrificial love with the idea that God changes His behavior based on man’s attitude, as implied in Psalm 18:26?

You are, of course, entitled to your current understanding—but I’m sincerely telling you: if you try to know God apart from Christ, you are only seeing shadows, not substance. The fullness of God is revealed in Jesus alone.

Why are you trying to make people believe something that doesn’t reflect the reality of God’s grace?

You mentioned that your mother used to say, “Igbokosẹ ò kọ̀ jẹ,” meaning, “If you don’t work, you don’t eat.” But let’s be honest—what work did you do for your mother before she breastfed you, clothed you, fed you, and sent you to school? Nothing. You were simply loved.

So why are you painting a false portrait of God—as if He only blesses when we pay Him with tithes? If you believe tithing is the reason you're blessed, give me one clear example. Then I’ll show you people who enjoy far greater blessings without ever paying a tithe.

We don’t give to get—we give because we’ve already been blessed. Don’t use tithing to fabricate attributes of God that don’t reflect His heart.

If you want to talk about testimonies, I’ll gladly share how faithful God has been to me—not because of my giving, but because of His love.
As Romans 8:32 says:
"He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all—how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?"

Seriously, do you even know this God you are describing?

Captain4Jehovah:
Anyone can claim to have experienced God's power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their testimony is rooted in true reliance on God. So, don't misquote me.

I appreciate you stated clearly why stage-managed miracles/testimonies are rampant these days.

So how can anyone motivate or impress Him? The examples you gave don’t show God being impressed—they’re simply anthropopathic expressions (human language used to describe divine actions). God is not human, and He is never surprised or moved by human effort in the way we might imagine.

In response to your reply I shall quote one passage from the same Malachi 3:10 and the other from Exodus 5:20. In Malachi 3:10, God states and I quote:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, AND PROVE ME NOW HEREWITH, SAITH THE LORD OF HOSTS, IF I WILL NOT OPEN YOU THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN, AND POUR YOU OUT A BLESSING, THAT THERE SHALL NOT BE ROOM ENOUGH TO RECEIVE IT" . In one way, God says TEST ME by VALIDATING WHAT I SAY YOU SHOULD DO. In another sense, He says MOVE ME BY YOUR TITHE_PROVOKE, INSPIRE, INDUCE ME BY GIVING ME YOUR TITHE. The inference from your statement that God is omniscient and nothing catches Him off guard by man's impression is established in the right or bad statehood of his heart at the moment he offers Him the gift. He is all-knowing God. It's just like what apostle James said when he made a reference to why prayers are not answered at the moment of offering them to him_there is a evil intent in man's heart. No one can impress Him by a robust or meager gift when his heart is evil(being evil has a deeper meaning). He would say, "you that I have known your heart before bringing your gift to me. I know why you are doing so. I won't accept you and gift. Consider Cain's and Abel's offerings. Even Jesus reckoned Abel as a righteous man in Mathew 23:35.

In another sense, all we have is His(Psalm 50) notwithstanding, He expects us to give back from the little we have for we know no one can gain the whole world!
Again, man can impress Him. First of all, He gives us free will to choose our path. The sons of Jonadab son of Rechab in Jeremiah 35 is a perfect example. God tested them through Jeremiah:"kindly place bottles of wine in front of them in my holy temple. Tell them to drink it." Their following response was shocking in spite it was through God's prophet: "our father before he died has ordered us not to taste or drink wine." And then God spoke through the same prophet on the spot:

"And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever." Verse 18-19.

Another case is seen in the parable of talents. Those who were given 5 and 2 talents and made profits from it were compensated unlike the one who buried his for he perceived God as a hard man.

When a man does something for God which satisfies Him, He responds by a promise and blessings.

Anthropopathic expressions cannot be used to screen spiritual content though the written words came through mechanical means which were inspired by His Spirit .The words came from God to express the position of HIS BEING. The message of God must be understood through human language anyway as it is glaring there is heavenly language. Also, those expressions are not solely reserved for man but also for God and any other supernatural beings if we would justify it through the light of Psalm 115 where the Psalmist convinces us that God can talk, walk, see, and hears unlike graven and molten images. He is a LIVING GOD NOT DEAD. A dead figure feels nothing. Another angle of view of this is the truth for instance, that the devils(demons) can suffer injuries. They feel the pain of such. Consider the gadarene demonic man through whom the demon representing many more demons inside of him spoke a fact of torture_"...I adjure thee by God that thou torment me not." My point is, God reacts to man's actions just like we human no matter who He is.

Exodus 20:5 expresses a character which is exclusively reserved to God as far as having a rival_whoring after another god is concerned _jealousy. He says," ...for I the LORD thy God I am a jealous God". In other words, HE FEELS THE WAY MAN'S DOES(Exodus 2:22-23).

Let me drop this in addition to my response,

Jesus said, "No one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18). That means many of the portrayals of God in the Old Testament are types and shadows—they point forward, but they aren't the full picture. Christ is the true and complete revelation of God. So, any character trait that Jesus didn’t display cannot rightly be attributed to God.

In one of your responses, you said God is both “good and wicked.” That tells me you're still forming your view of God based on Old Covenant acts, rather than the revelation of God in Christ. I’m not surprised, though—it seems your main goal is to justify tithing as a requirement for receiving blessings.

Let me ask you: if your earthly father can do you good without expecting anything in return, how much more the love of our Heavenly Father? If you're claiming God must receive tithes before He can bless us, then I honestly question whether you've come to know Him in the light of Christ.

I've told you before—you cannot move God by your giving or by your actions, no matter how sincere your sacrifice may be. The Bible says, “He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3). What could you possibly offer in exchange for that?

I understand where you're coming from. But you need to come to know God through Christ—not through a system that treats Him like a negotiator.

Captain4Jehovah:
Anyone can claim to have experienced God's power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their testimony is rooted in true reliance on God. So, don't misquote me.

I appreciate you stated clearly why stage-managed miracles/testimonies are rampant these days.

So how can anyone motivate or impress Him? The examples you gave don’t show God being impressed—they’re simply anthropopathic expressions (human language used to describe divine actions). God is not human, and He is never surprised or moved by human effort in the way we might imagine.

In response to your reply I shall quote one passage from the same Malachi 3:10 and the other from Exodus 5:20. In Malachi 3:10, God states and I quote:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, AND PROVE ME NOW HEREWITH, SAITH THE LORD OF HOSTS, IF I WILL NOT OPEN YOU THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN, AND POUR YOU OUT A BLESSING, THAT THERE SHALL NOT BE ROOM ENOUGH TO RECEIVE IT" . In one way, God says TEST ME by VALIDATING WHAT I SAY YOU SHOULD DO. In another sense, He says MOVE ME BY YOUR TITHE_PROVOKE, INSPIRE, INDUCE ME BY GIVING ME YOUR TITHE. The inference from your statement that God is omniscient and nothing catches Him off guard by man's impression is established in the right or bad statehood of his heart at the moment he offers Him the gift. He is all-knowing God. It's just like what apostle James said when he made a reference to why prayers are not answered at the moment of offering them to him_there is a evil intent in man's heart. No one can impress Him by a robust or meager gift when his heart is evil(being evil has a deeper meaning). He would say, "you that I have known your heart before bringing your gift to me. I know why you are doing so. I won't accept you and gift. Consider Cain's and Abel's offerings. Even Jesus reckoned Abel as a righteous man in Mathew 23:35.

In another sense, all we have is His(Psalm 50) notwithstanding, He expects us to give back from the little we have for we know no one can gain the whole world!
Again, man can impress Him. First of all, He gives us free will to choose our path. The sons of Jonadab son of Rechab in Jeremiah 35 is a perfect example. God tested them through Jeremiah:"kindly place bottles of wine in front of them in my holy temple. Tell them to drink it." Their following response was shocking in spite it was through God's prophet: "our father before he died has ordered us not to taste or drink wine." And then God spoke through the same prophet on the spot:

"And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever." Verse 18-19.

Another case is seen in the parable of talents. Those who were given 5 and 2 talents and made profits from it were compensated unlike the one who buried his for he perceived God as a hard man.

When a man does something for God which satisfies Him, He responds by a promise and blessings.

Anthropopathic expressions cannot be used to screen spiritual content though the written words came through mechanical means which were inspired by His Spirit .The words came from God to express the position of HIS BEING. The message of God must be understood through human language anyway as it is glaring there is heavenly language. Also, those expressions are not solely reserved for man but also for God and any other supernatural beings if we would justify it through the light of Psalm 115 where the Psalmist convinces us that God can talk, walk, see, and hears unlike graven and molten images. He is a LIVING GOD NOT DEAD. A dead figure feels nothing. Another angle of view of this is the truth for instance, that the devils(demons) can suffer injuries. They feel the pain of such. Consider the gadarene demonic man through whom the demon representing many more demons inside of him spoke a fact of torture_"...I adjure thee by God that thou torment me not." My point is, God reacts to man's actions just like we human no matter who He is.

Exodus 20:5 expresses a character which is exclusively reserved to God as far as having a rival_whoring after another god is concerned _jealousy. He says," ...for I the LORD thy God I am a jealous God". In other words, HE FEELS THE WAY MAN'S DOES(Exodus 2:22-23).

"In one way, God says TEST ME by VALIDATING WHAT I SAY YOU SHOULD DO. In another sense, He says MOVE ME BY YOUR TITHE_PROVOKE, INSPIRE, INDUCE ME BY GIVING ME YOUR TITHE"

Come, Why are you trying to murder God's character in the name of tithing?

Get this fact,
“Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.” —Acts 15:18
“Declaring the end from the beginning…” —Isaiah 46:10

God is not surprised or “moved” as humans are. He knows every decision and action before it happens. He knew the Rechabites would remain obedient. He knew Cain would offer an unacceptable sacrifice. He knows who will give or withhold tithes. Nothing catches Him off guard.

God allows us to experience the manifestation of His blessings through obedience—not because we change His mind—but because this is how He has designed His relational dealings with us.

God is not mechanical—but He is not emotionally unstable either.
He is a living, personal, relational Being who interacts with us in ways we can understand,
yet remains sovereign, eternal, and unchanging in His nature.

We must keep this foundation clear: God is proactive. His responses in Scripture are not triggered by surprise or need—but are expressions of His eternal purpose playing out in time through His relationship with mankind.

It is an act of unbelief when we refuse to acknowledge what Christ has done for us and who He has declared us to be. Faith is not merely believing that Jesus exists—it is agreeing with His finished work and accepting His Word as truth, even when it contradicts how we feel or how others see us.

Christ has:

1. Justified us — “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

2. Forgiven us — “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins” (Colossians 1:14).

3. Made us righteous — “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

4. Declared us holy — “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10).

5. Called us a peculiar people — “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people…” (1 Peter 2:9).

6. Given us the Holy Spirit — “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Galatians 4:6).

7. Given us eternal life — “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 John 5:11).


The Subtle Unbelief in the Church Today

Many Christians, though sincere, fall into the trap of unbelief—not by denying Christ, but by failing to believe what He has accomplished and declared about them. This unbelief has real implications:

1. Living in Condemnation and Guilt

Romans 8:1 — “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus…”
When we do not believe we are truly forgiven and justified, we carry guilt that Christ already bore. This weakens our faith and hinders our walk.

2. Striving to Earn What Is Already Given

Galatians 3:3 — “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”
Instead of resting in God's grace, many live in constant performance mode—trying to earn righteousness, holiness, or God’s approval.

3. Rejecting Our Identity and Inheritance

Ephesians 1:11 — “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance…”
Doubting our identity causes us to live below our spiritual privileges, robbing us of confidence, authority, and joy.

4. Ineffective Christian Living

Philemon 1:6 — “That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.”
Our faith becomes powerful as we acknowledge—not deny—what is already in us through Christ.

5. Opening Doors to Fear and Defeat

2 Timothy 1:7 — “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear…”
Unbelief fuels fear, insecurity, and confusion. Believing the truth gives boldness, clarity, and peace.


Finally, Faith receives God's verdict over our own. When God calls us holy, righteous, and beloved, true belief responds with “Amen.” Our identity in Christ is not based on performance but on His finished work. Denying it—intentionally or not—robs us of the victory He has already won.


Let us therefore repent of unbelief, even in its subtle forms, and walk boldly in what Christ has accomplished. Only then can we truly live out the fullness of our calling in Him.

Scripture Reference:
“Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
— 1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV)

The phrase "supposing gain is godliness" refers to the mistaken belief that material wealth or success is proof of a person’s godliness or favor with God. It reflects a twisted theology where prosperity is seen as the measure of spiritual life, and wealth is wrongly assumed to be a sign of righteousness.

The apostle Paul exposes the false logic behind this idea. He warns Timothy about certain individuals who use religion as a tool for personal gain. These people are not interested in truth or holiness—they are driven by selfish motives and view faith as a way to profit. Paul instructs believers to avoid such individuals.

In contrast, Paul presents the true view in the following verse:

“But godliness with contentment is great gain.” (1 Timothy 6:6)

Here, Paul redefines what real gain is: not riches or possessions, but a life of godliness combined with contentment. True spiritual wealth comes from living faithfully before God and being satisfied with what He provides.

In short: “Supposing gain is godliness” is the false idea that money/materials things equals God's favor. But true godliness is not about riches—it’s about loving and obeying God, being content, and living in integrity. That’s the kind of gain that truly matters in God's eyes.

Captain4Jehovah:
"God's power or response cannot be validated by people’s experiences or testimonies" when translated into my mother's tongue means that: " A ko le fi idi agbara tabi idahun Olorun mule nipase iriri tabi eri awon enia". How would man know He exists(His name) IF His MIGHT is not manifested through His providence? How would he APPRECIATE the selfsame power and response of His IF MAN HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT. Even those people of Israel who whored by serving the Queen of heaven in Jeremiah 44 testified to her providence.

"He is God—He doesn't react; He acts proactively." you penned shows you don't understand who God is. First of all He is a living fully composed Spirit who feels just as we do. Genesis has a record of the rejection of THE PERSON OF Cain and OFFERING AT THE MOMENT HE WAS OFFERING to the LORD(Genesis 4:4). And God asked him why he was angry in verse 6. In Genesis 6:6, we are informed "He was hurt in His heart." Noah's sacrifice tells us about His positive reaction_" And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in His heart..."(Genesis 8:21).

"And let’s be honest—many people tithe and still have no testimony to show for it."
Read "Do's and Don'ts" of what I posted. "A ki n wo" just like Abraham did on the sacrifice he made for the LORD. Two, what is the source of the tithe? Three, what is a Christian heart's stance while giving it. God cannot be mocked!

"His blessings are not tied to whether you give or not."
It seems you don't know who God is! He is both wicked I should say and good_"Olorun buru beni o si JE alanu ati olore-ofe. Iha ti enia ba ko si ni yio ko si enia." No cheating! No blessings of God if you don't give to Him(Psalm 18:24-26). Forget about the general grace of God on every creature_He gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good ,and he sends rain on the just and unjust alike"(Matthew 5:45)

I assume you meant "God cannot be bribed or we cannot cut corners" when you wrote "God cannot be motivated or manipulated by our giving." HE CAN BE MOTIVATED. "IWURI NI O MA NJE FUN ỌLỌRUN ALAYE NIGBATI ENIA BA SE OHUN TO DUN MO O NINU JOJO. YIO SE EYI TI O YANILENU LEYIN IFIFUNNI WA. APERE EYI NI A RI NIGBATI ABRAHAM YONDA OMO RE KAN SOSO FUN ỌLỌRUN. NOAH NKO? Consider the widow's mite too! It was a clear-cut offering in that she gave her all resource to the LORD. But it is true we cannot manipulate Him by giving because He cannot be mocked.

"You mentioned Abraham. Let me clarify—Abraham’s tithe was a one-time event. Nowhere else in the Bible do we see him tithing again after what he gave to Melchizedek. A single event like that cannot be used to establish a consistent practice."

But GOD COMMANDED ISRAELITES to bring it to His house. Jesus mentioned it WITH NO CONDEMNATION!

In fact, Abraham gave that tithe and also the rest spoil to make it clear that he did not become rich from the spoils of war—he wanted no accusation of benefiting from those gains. So using that story as a basis for tithing is shaky.

Abraham was in his Father when he met Melchizedek_he was in God_his spirit was in agreement with God_"His spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are children of God." The essence of this is that whatever he did as far as tithing is concerned is what God accepted and later commanded for Israel. Remember Adam's participation in creation story_"...and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock,..."(Genesis 2:19). As Israelites are Abraham's progenitors, so are the rest of those who find salvation in Christ Jesus regardless of tribe or race today. What is expected of Israel is also expected of non-Israel today!

Before you shift the focus of this discussion, let me clarify what I meant when I said God's power cannot be validated by people’s experiences. That statement was in direct response to your claim that some people tithe and have testimonies. Please don't deviate from the subject. Anyone can claim to have experienced God's power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their testimony is rooted in true reliance on God. So, don't misquote me.

Now, regarding my statement that God cannot be motivated—you responded by saying I don't understand who God is. Let me make this clear: God is omniscient; He knows all things and nothing catches Him off guard. So how can anyone motivate or impress Him? The examples you gave don’t show God being impressed—they’re simply anthropopathic expressions (human language used to describe divine actions). God is not human, and He is never surprised or moved by human effort in the way we might imagine.

As Philippians 1:6 says: "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (NIV)


Philippians 2:13
"For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (NIV)

Jesus also said, "Without me, you can do nothing."

If you're going to claim people have testimonies because they tithe, then can you point to anyone who has been cursed for not tithing? We must be careful not to assign to God characteristics He has not revealed about Himself. He is God over all. I'm glad you quoted a verse that reveals the fullness of His character. Just know this: your tithes do not move Him, and your giving will never alter His nature.

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135228020][/quote]When you said, "those who tithe with a pure heart have positive testimonies to share," I had to laugh. God's power or response cannot be validated by people’s experiences or testimonies. He is God—He doesn't react; He acts proactively. And let’s be honest—many people tithe and still have no testimony to show for it.

What I'm trying to say is this: God has already put everything in place for His children to enjoy. His blessings are not tied to whether you give or not. God cannot be motivated or manipulated by our giving.

You mentioned Abraham. Let me clarify—Abraham’s tithe was a one-time event. Nowhere else in the Bible do we see him tithing again after what he gave to Melchizedek. A single event like that cannot be used to establish a consistent practice.

In fact, Abraham gave that tithe and also the rest spoil to make it clear that he did not become rich from the spoils of war—he wanted no accusation of benefiting from those gains. So using that story as a basis for tithing is shaky.

The same goes for Jacob. If tithing were a standard, we should have seen Isaac practicing it too, but the Bible makes no mention of him ever tithing.

[quote author=Captain4Jehovah post=135212084][/quote]Christianity is both apostolic and prophetic. As followers of Christ, we are called to follow the example and teachings of the apostles. If the apostles did not practice something, we should be cautious about embracing it.

For your information, Jesus never paid or received tithes, and neither did the apostles. The system of tithing was specific to the Israelites under the Law of Moses and was administered by the Levitical priesthood.

The apostles lived and ministered under grace, not law. If we are also under grace, why then should we return to practices rooted in the law?

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the fulfillment and end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Romans 10:4). Therefore, it is inconsistent for those under grace to continue enforcing a system that was fulfilled in Him.

Tithing, as prescribed in the law, was to be received by Levites. So how does anyone today—who is not a Levite—justify receiving tithes?

Captain4Jehovah:
I really appreciate your enlightenment and little exposition regarding tithing. Remember tithe is not an act of giving which comes in form of A WILLING OFFERING for your main point and line of thought counter tithing equating tithe with a willing giving. While one is based on BELIEVERS' WILL according to your point, what the Bible teaches and RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION for we see this in the Bible many times where people of God brings offerings to the house of God(Ex. 35:1-36:7; Ezra 7:15-18; 2 Chronicles 6:7-9, 1 Chronicles 29; Mark 12:41), tithe IS EXPEDIENT.

A shift from the law, PRIMARILY THE LAWS OF MOSES which center on temple rituals to the divine grace found in Jesus ("For the grace which brought salvation has appeared unto all men" does not equate freedom from tithing. For at one point Jesus mentioned tithing without condemning the act in Luke 11:42 and Mathew 23:23.

The book of Hebrews 7:11-14 EXPLICITLY enlightens believers in Jesus Christ to forgo all LEVITICAL RITUALS WHICH ARE UNDER BINDING LAWS. We see in the Old Testament that priests/Levites mainly take care of temple rituals involving cleansing of sin and various uncleanliness (tithe is not a ritual and can't be changed). In fact, chapter 7 explains a change of priesthood and law to that law(WE HAVE A LAW OF THE SPIRIT OPERATING IN SPIRITUAL REALM NOW) found in Jesus' grace which the writer begins to highlight starting from chapter 5 and it ends in chapter 10. In other words, these laws are a drive for the rituals. Even one of these laws was mentioned to the leper Jesus healed of leprosy.

Moreover, I stated earlier in the introduction of the topical issue that the devil and his cohorts strategize against Christians as dispensation changes_"The devil and his cohorts strategize and plan for each time and dispensation of the universe but man does not seem to notice." I didn't just mention this. This is what is happening in the spiritual realm. I also mentioned "I am a testimonial to this!" This is what I know and was mentioned during my encounter with the devil as a means of deliverance. Although Christ did not mention tithing as a requirement in the New Testament, it is expedient for Christians to be wise. As Christians, we must not overrule all the injunctions of the Old Testament. For instance , personal hygiene which is one of the thorough physical cleanliness practised in the Old Testament period is also held high by the Most High God in our era. As God Himself warns us of physical uncleanliness, Satan could also use the selfsame against Christians.

Regarding failure to tithe and the curse that could be incurred, I want to tell you that every disobedience produces a curse automatically. It's just that we are being justified and covered all the time by the blood of Jesus because of the grace found in him. There are some preachings which cannot be accepted by even some big ministers of God these days. They don't preach it either because they know the repercussion since they themselves are doing the same negative things God frowns at.
As we are giving the grace under Christ, we are bound to ask God what is obtainable in Christianity. It is not a sin if someone doesn't know but it is important one seeks to know.

Again, we should understand that the Old Testament contains God's word. And we should understand that Satan selects those ones that he can use against Christians just like what he did to Jesus in Matthew 4. Again, we need to borne it in our hearts WHO A CHRISTIAN IS.

Thank you for your detailed and passionate response. I’d like to offer a gentle clarification based on Scripture:

Jesus and Tithing (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42):
It’s true that Jesus mentioned tithing, but He was speaking directly to the Pharisees—Jews still under the Law—before the New Covenant was established through His death and resurrection. His statement affirmed the Law they were still bound to, but He never extended tithing as a requirement for His followers under grace.

Hebrews 7 and the Change of Law:
You're right that Hebrews 7 highlights a change of priesthood—from Levi to Melchizedek (fulfilled in Christ)—and that this necessitated a change of the law (Hebrews 7:12). This shift is not symbolic; it’s structural. Since the Levitical priesthood has been set aside, the tithing system tied to it has also passed away. We now serve under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), not the Mosaic ordinances.

On Curses and Disobedience:
Yes, disobedience always has consequences, but in Christ, the curse of the Law has been removed. “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13). If failure to tithe still brings a curse, then Christ’s atonement was not complete—which would contradict the gospel. We are no longer under law, but under grace (Romans 6:14).

The Old Testament and Christian Wisdom:
I absolutely agree that we should not disregard the Old Testament. It is God’s Word and full of wisdom, history, and revelation. But we must interpret and apply it through the lens of the New Covenant. Many practices in the Old Testament (e.g. dietary laws, sacrifices, temple rituals) are not binding today, though they carry principles we can still learn from.

Finally, Christians are not commanded to tithe as an obligation. However, we are absolutely encouraged to give—generously and sacrificially—not to fulfill the Law, but as an act of love and faith. The New Testament calls for a heart-led response, not a percentage-based rule. And praise be to God, no curse awaits those who give less or differently than others. We rest in Christ’s finished work.

Captain4Jehovah:
TOPIC: What Do You Think About Mark 4:31, Matthew 9:37 and Malachi 3:10_Its Usage, Application and Criticism?

INTRODUCTION

God's word remains "Yea and Amen." God's word is true and settled in heaven. One dispensation goes another one comes but His word remains. The devil and his cohorts strategize and plan for each time and dispensation of the universe but man does not seem to notice. So, God's word must be studied, examined, used to fit in time. To fit in time does not mean the word has lost its value and power for other times and dispensations. There are many statements of Jesus which are difficult to understand though he spoke them to convey hidden intent of the Most High God. He spoke 39 parables concerning God's kingdom.

It has become the custom of apologetics in the manner they interpret God's word. They consider the Bible like any other historical books. Hence, its content is countered by world philosophy and human intellect with no regard for its spiritual content meant for man's ultimate salvation beginning from here.

BODY

1. Mark 4:31_Mustard Seed Spiritual and Contextualized Meaning in Relation to God's Kingdom Criticized.

"It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth"

There has been criticism about the invalidity of the quote above. What brings about this is the inclusion of "mustard seed" in the statement. Critics say if Jesus is indeed God who knows the end from the beginning(Rev. 1: he should not have used "mustard seed" to convey the meaning of God's kingdom because it is not the smallest seed ever known in the world(planet earth). He was trying to compare two things_"IT(God's kingdom) is like a grain of mustard seed." At some time, his disciples had to question why he spoke in parables and not in plain words to his hearers even his disciples were victims of the selfsame.(Matthew 13:11). He used what his hearers could easily understand. The critics say the correct seed should have been "orchid seed" not "mustard seed" because it is the smallest seed in the world, planet earth.

Ok! First, the smallest and commonest seed grown by farmers of Jesus contemporary time is mustard seed not orchid seed. He used mustard seed so that his hearers could easily understand his message. It's just like a typical teacher who teaches from known to the unknown, from the simple to the most difficult one. To be a good teacher, one needs to use what are within one's students' immediate surrounding to relay the core meaning of any topic. There must be something a good teacher uses to relay basic knowledge of a topic within the environment!

As students, his disciples and hearers never counter the usage of "mustard seed" to convey his message for it is certain there would be at least one intellectual among them.

Second, although orchid seed is the smallest of all seeds ever known, it does not grow into a big tree like mustard seed to convey the message about God's kingdom. Mustard seed does! Birds patch on it. They find rest on it. They make it their comfort zone where refreshment can be obtained.

Third, the word "earth" in the text does not connote the whole world, the planet earth but the soil so that no one would think he made a reference to the entire universe. The statement itself would have been invalid assuming orchid seed was planted in the environment.

2. Matthew 9:37_Its Usage in This Dispensation

"Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few."

The labourers were truly few as at the time Jesus made this statement considering the "workforce", his disciples and where the message about God's kingdom would reach. Unlike his contemporary disciples, there are many disciples today in the field who are harvesting nothing for the LORD GOD though they have large church members and auditoriums. Souls are not saved. Rather, they are sold to the devil instead. These are the thieves and robbers Jesus referred to in John 10:8.

There was a day I had the chance to listen to the message of a missioner. He mentioned that as he was singing the song of Baba Adelakun:"Amona tete ma bo*2 Aye n daru, Amona tete ma bo. Aye n baje o, Amona tete mabo." God told him to stop singing the song because there are many more lands to cover_ there are many souls to be saved.

There are still many souls wasting away. There are many more workers in the vineyard who bring in no soul into God's kingdom.

3. Malachi 3:10_Tithe's Controversy

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

A 1. Let Us Go to the Beginning

There are a lot of criticisms concerning paying tithes from all quarters. There has not been any criticisms and blasphemous statements about it until recently in Nigeria especially. But we need to go to the beginning where the first tenth part was given. Genesis 14 has the story.

A 2. Spoilt of War Equates Abraham's Tenth Part

Studying the chapter closely, I observed that the tenth part is not actually a "tithe"but a spoilt of war for a tithe is any tenth part from one's earnings and labours according to Levitical order or injunction. Every victorious war party shares "the spoilt of war." (Gen. 14:24; 1 Sam. 15:9). What makes Abraham's own different is that he gave "EVERY tenth part of the spoilt of war" to Mechizedek, king of Salem who happened also to be a priest of the Most High God not those things from his earnings. Compare Deuteronomy 14:29. He returned the people of the king of SODOM and "goods" which are spoilt of war. What was the reason for Abraham's gesture in spite "he went through hell" before he could recover all what were taken from him(Lot's wives and goods)? He was already blessed and contented( 14:23). Nothing was mentioned regarding paying a tenth part from his earnings or what was given to him. Compare Deuteronomy 14:22.

B. Tradition in Abraham's Household

However, the tenth part became a tradition in Abraham's household for we read in Genesis 28:20-22 where Jacob promised God he would give Him "a tenth part" of WHATEVER GOD WOULD GIVE HIM IN APPRECIATION OF GOD'S PRESENCE IN HIS JOURNEY. This is A VOW but Jacob's response to Jehovah's provisions would be a tenth part of all he would have. I "think" this, Jacob's response, fits a typical tithe. Read the text yourself! NOTE that Abraham had the grace to see Jacob his grandson_Jacob would either have seen his grandfather doing it or heard it from either Abraham or Isaac.

Additionally, no account is given in the Bible as to whom(priest) he gave it or whether he fulfilled his promise to God. But I am confident he did it!

C. Tithe,Tax and Tribute of War

Again, we should understand that tithes are not taxes. Tax has its origin too. Tax was recognized during the Roman empire BUT it had being prior to this(2 Kings 23:34,35). Compare Genesis 41:34, 47:24,26_one fifth of farm produces was given to Pharaoh. It was A FORM OF EXACTION IN ONE WAY TO BALANCE THE ECONOMY SITUATION OF THAT TIME IN EGYPT (Compare 2Kings 23:35_the people of Judah were forced to give an outrageous amount of money).

In this text, 2Kings 23:35, we see the powerful that dominates the least or the one without. I remember when I was still young watching episode Yoruba dramas. After a land is sacked by military force, the land will start paying tributes of any form to the king and chiefs of the powerful land. If the subdued land fails to pay her dues as at when due, the king will send soldiers to take away any available goods by force. This is a tribute! For instance in verse 33, Pharaoh-necho put Judah "to a tribute of an hundred talents of silver(talent here serves as a unit of money like naira and kobo), and a talent(unit of money) of gold." In verse 35, the Bible informs us that Eliakim(Johoiakim) "taxed(certain amount were demanded) the land(in order to meet the oppressor's demand) to give the money(the silver and gold) according to the commandment of Pharaoh: he EXACTED(forced, wrestled, imposed) the silver and the gold of the people of the land(even the poor), of every one according to his taxation, to give it unto Pharaoh-necho." [Emphasis added].

We see here that both come as a result of one war party dominating another and are paid BY FORCE. In fact, employees feel the pain of percentages of money deducted from their salaries each month these days! I believe some workers will be complaining about non correlation of percentages used to calculate their taxes_the percentages are not in conformity with their salaries_not Pay As You Earn. Two, while tribute of war is paid in goods, tax is paid in money majorly.

ONE IS FORCED TO PAY TAX EVEN AS IT IS DONE TODAY(Luke 19:. The government runs after an individual and organization in order to pay the tax owed besides the income tax and indirect tax(the two taxes are steady). ANYONE CAN QUOTE ME WRONG. I STAND TO BE CORRECTED! BUT YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO PAY TITHE THOUGH IT IS COMPULSORY AS TAX AND TRIBUTE OF WAR(Yoruba word for tribute is "ISAKOLE" and tax is "OWO-ODE".

PAYING of tax came into the land of Israel when the Romans gained control of their land. This tax was not primarily shared among the emperor, soldiers and chiefs, it was used for the public. It was introduced into the Roman government by Julius Caesar and then Augustus Caesar with certain percentages. Paying of tax was more evident during Jesus time where we see Matthew, the tax collector chosen by the Roman government NOT ISRAEL to collect it( Matthew 10:3; Luke 19:2,5,. Jesus was also confronted through Peter_"Doth not your master pay tribute?(Matthew 17:24). The word "tribute" means "custom" in usage which is a temple tax demanded from Jesus.

Why did I mention tax and tithe altogether? This is to clear the erroneous belief that Pastors extort members of the Church. While the government exacts and forces people to pay tax these days, tithe is not. While tax is used to provide social amenities, tithe provides both physical and spiritual blessings.

D. Tithe_No Mention of It As a Law in the Beginning of its Inception

There is no mention of it in any other places except the ones already mentioned i.e. in Genesis 14:20 and 28:22. However, God never made it a law to Abraham to pay every tenth part of his earnings neither was Jacob told. It came from their volition. Abraham's own was in appreciation while Jacob's own was both a TOKEN OF VOW and appreciation.

E 1. Its Statutory Beginning

Abraham had God's spirit like Adam_"every name Adam gave to all animals is what they bear" without God's intervention. Applicable, Abraham's tithing to Mechizedek, a priest became an injunction through ages until this present time.(Heb. 7:4)

E 2. The Church in the Wilderness Had a Law of it

The simplicity of tithing or better way to understand WHY God commands tithing is because of what the Israelites went through in Egypt_they were once a subject of hard labours and slavery. Compare Deuteronomy 14:28. Those who are entitled to it are the Levites, poor, widow, and stranger, fatherless_non-working class and less privileged. What does this mean? It means ALL THE FARM PRODUCTS OF THE FARMERS' MUST GO ROUND REGARDLESS. PEOPLE IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL must not complain of hunger. Or simply, they must not suffer as a result of hunger.

A relational angle of view of God's intent commanding His people to pay tithes is seen in Ecclesiastics 8:15 thus:

"Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun."

Notice that Deuteronomy 14:26 mentions about merriment__"and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household."

Exodus is the first book which has a record of God's commandment regarding tithe's concept. In Exodus 22:29, we have:

"Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."

The first fruits including the Israelites' sons must be brought before the LORD WITHOUT DELAY. In reality, God does not eat it but primarily for the Levites BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO SECULAR WORK BUT SPIRITUAL'S. You know, THEY MUST NOT GO HUNGRY. Also, the fatherless, widows, stranger and poor MUST NOT GO HUNGRY TOO. I mentioned it earlier! This is why it is a commandment. Note the last clause of verse 12: "...that they may eat within the gate, AND BE FILLED"

NOTE: The tithes collected by the Levites were not only meant to feed the less privileged but also for "furnishing" the house of God.

F. TYPES OF TITHES
There are three types according to Deuteronomy 14:22-29. They are Levitical tithe, rejoicing tithe and the poor tithe.

1. Levitical Tithe: Every tenth part from the other tribes of Israel farm produce is given to them(Nehemiah 10:37; Deuteronomy 14:22). The Levites are also commanded to give a tenth part of the tithes given to them_they are to bring it to the house of God (Heb. 7:9; Neh. 10:38; Matthew 23:23; Num. 18:26)

2. Rejoicing Tithe: It is so called because God wants His people to be happy after their hard labours. However, THIS MUST BE BROUGHT TO THE HOUSE OF GOD REGARDLESS WHERE THE GIVER LIVES(Deu. 14:23)_if the distance is far (where he lives is far from the LORD'S temple), the produces must be converted to money and brought to the house of God (Deu. 14:24-26). The Levites, fatherless, widow and strangers must be remembered too(Verse 28). THIS IS A SPECIAL TITHE GIVEN AT THE FEAST OF WEEKS, UNLEAVENED BREAD AND Tabernacles(Deu. 16:13-16*).
Notwithstanding, the Levites still remain the supervisors for they are in charge(Deu. 26:12).

3. The Poor Tithe: This is primarily for the widows, foreigners and fatherless(Due.26:12).

The Levites are still entitled to all these categories above(1 Cor. 9:13; Deu. 18:1-4).

G. Why Malachi 3:10?

The real reason why God sent this oracle to the Israelites, the priests inclusive is that they left the right orders_everyone was doing his own things the way he or she felt_religious corruption as touching tithes became norms of the day after their return from exile.

H 1. God Promises Blessings

The verse contains blessings to open the windows of heaven. One, God would send constant rain and all other factors for their crops to flourish would be available. He would rebuke devourers_pests and plants' and animals' diseases. These are physical blessings in relation to their farming.
Today, tithers receive not only physical blessings but also spiritual ones they cannot even imagine. It is also a means of defence in a difficult spiritual battle. Besides, it could serve as a means of deliverance and salvation for one. A similar case is referenced from Acts 10:4 in which God reckoned with Cornelius' alms. I am a testimonial to this!

H 2. Do's and Don'ts

Obedience to paying tithes equal blessings as seen in verses 10 and 11. But, you do not need to have the mind that God needs to do something immediately you pay it. You would not want to be Abraham who wanted to see what would happen to the sacrifice he made. "You must not look at it"! You must not dare God! Pay it, leave the rest to God. Let Him take care of the rest. Check Acts 10:4 for my intent here.

H 3. Timely Payment

The book of Deuteronomy 14:28-29 mentions bringing all tithes to God's house in time. Consider Exodus 22:29. Tithe must be paid without delay! This is what God told me.

I. Curse and Allegation

It is evident in verse 9 that those who refuse to bring it to the house of God would be cursed. Why? Such persons are equally transgressors. God declares such persons robbers (verse 9). And this is the accusation the devil will be using against anyone who refuses to pay it. Remember he is an accuser of the brethren (Rev. 12:10). He may accuse one as a robber or thief(1Peter 4:15). With this, IT IS POSSIBLE for someone to miss heaven. You should understand that Satan only looks for disobedience to hold onto so that he may be using it against someone. A foothold of Satan therefore in someone's life makes it possible to claim one as his.

PAY YOUR TITHE AS YOU PAY YOUR TAX! GOD BLESS YOU.

If I may, I’d like to briefly address the point you raised about tithing.

Thank you for your passionate teaching on Malachi 3:10. It's evident that you have a deep commitment to honoring God through giving, and that dedication is truly admirable. However, I believe it's important to address a foundational truth: as believers in Christ, we are no longer under the Law, but under grace.

Hebrews 7:11–14 explains this clearly. The Levitical priesthood—through which tithing was instituted—has been replaced by a new priesthood in Christ, who came not from the tribe of Levi, but from Judah. Verse 12 says, “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” This signifies that the laws tied to that former priesthood, including the command to tithe, are no longer binding on believers in the New Covenant.

Today, we are called to give freely, generously, and cheerfully—not out of obligation or fear, but as led by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 9:6–7). The New Covenant is not focused on percentages, but on the posture of the heart. This doesn't mean we stop giving—it means we give as an expression of love, not legalism.

I also want to lovingly clarify that under the New Covenant, God does not curse His children for not paying tithes. The curse mentioned in Malachi 3:9 was specific to the Old Covenant system given through Moses. But now, as Galatians 3:13 declares, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” Because of Jesus, no believer under grace can be cursed for falling short of the law—including the law of tithing.

While tithing may still serve as a useful personal discipline or starting point in giving, it is not a requirement under the New Covenant. Our giving should always be a joyful, faith-filled response to the abundant grace we’ve received in Christ.

Sin is not just something we do; it’s a condition we’re born into. Left to ourselves, we simply can’t help but sin — it’s our default mode. That’s why human effort alone is never enough to make us right with God. But the good news is found in 2 Corinthians 5:21, which says:

"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (NKJV)

This verse highlights a powerful exchange: Jesus, who never sinned, took on our sin so we could receive His righteousness. In other words, Jesus didn’t just deal with what we do; He dealt with who we are without Him.

Because of this, we are no longer slaves to sin — even though we couldn’t help ourselves before, now in Christ, we have a new nature and the power to live differently. The righteousness of God is not earned, it’s received by faith. So when you feel like you can’t help yourself, remember: Jesus already did what you couldn’t. He became sin so you could be free.

Eternal life is the game changer!!!

sonmvayina:
Well our creator calls it idolatry. Are you not bothered ?
Commandments number 2: Do not make the image or likeness of anything in the heavens, on earth or under the waters below the earth, do not bow down to them or serve them"...

The Romans created a god in the likeness of a man (something that is found on earth ) and you are calling it the truth?? If that is the truth, I wonder what the lie looks like?
Well life is all about making choices, you have chosen to follow the wrong way. No problem. I am not the judge. I only wanted to point you to your mistake and get on the right path with God. Maybe in the future when you continue to study, you might come to a better conclusion so be it.
There is no prophecy about Jesus in the Torah or Tanakh. What you have are all mistranslation and outright lies. If you think you have, I will entertain your proofs. Maybe 1 or 2 will do. I think I am in the mood for teaching now.

I appreciate your passion, but I disagree with your conclusions.

First, your interpretation of idolatry seems to overlook the distinction between worshipping an image as God and recognizing that God manifested in human form through Jesus. The incarnation isn’t about creating a god in man’s image, but about God choosing to reveal Himself in a way we could understand. That’s not idolatry, it’s divine mercy.

As for the prophecies, I’ll gladly share a couple. Isaiah 53 clearly describes a suffering servant who bears the sins of others, this has been historically understood by many, even ancient Jewish scholars, as messianic. Psalm 22 speaks of one who is pierced, surrounded by mockers, whose garments are divided, this isn’t random imagery. Micah 5:2 speaks of a ruler from Bethlehem whose origins are from of old. These are just a few among many.

You’re right that life is about choices. I’ve chosen to follow Jesus not out of ignorance, but after study, prayer, and experience. If you’re open to genuine dialogue rather than mockery, I’d be glad to continue. But if your aim is just to teach without listening, then this won’t be fruitful.

I pray that, in time, we both grow in truth and humility.

sonmvayina:
Jesus is an insult against God. Just like Daniel prophesied. He has got nothing to do with our creator. We are all children of God if we obey his commandments. God is not a man or a human being. (Numbers 23:19) God has no physical form. We are the forms through which God experiences his creation. Your understanding of this statement is the beginning of your salvation.
Christianity is a pagan concept created by the Roman empire. They only added it at the end of the Jewish scripture to give it some legitimatimacy.
It's idea are so so different from what God revealed in the Torah.
Jerimah 31:31 is a new covenant . The old one was written in paper and stone. In the new covenant, the law will be written in our heart so it becomes effortless to keep. Nobody is coming to die for sins. It is a pagan concept.
Take responsibility for your actions there is no devil or Satan to push it to.

Come on! Your explanation has no solid foundation, and I’d advise you to refrain from engaging in matters beyond your understanding. I’m not here to compel you to follow Jesus—you’ve made choices that seem right to you, so keep going with them. Hold on to your beliefs, but as for me, the Jesus I believe in is not shaken by your reasoning. None of your explanations can uproot my faith in Him, especially since you lack a proper understanding of the Old Testament you’re quoting from.

DemonSlayer:
Cool stuff, especially the last paragraph.

I get that wrongdoing has consequences and often causes harm that demands restitution. But here’s the thing: from the very beginning of the story, the so-called “Original Sin” was disobedience. People ate a fruit they were forbidden to eat. They didn’t kill anyone—not even an animal. They didn’t lie to put anyone in danger. They didn’t commit theft or arson. They literally did not harm a soul in any physical sense. The punishment? Death.

My understanding of what you said is that justice is needed to account for harm done. So, who exactly did they harm? God? Can God be harmed? Themselves? So they needed to be k!lled (spiritually) for harming themselves? That’s justice?

Consider this alternative narrative: God strolls in during the evening and discovers (even though He already knew before He even created them) what the humans have done. He calls them out, does a bit of a shakedown to help them understand the seriousness of disobedience. He gives them a chance to say sorry—they do. Then He says, “You know what? I forgive you, but I’m still going to punish you so the lesson sinks in. You’re grounded for a month. No tending to the garden, no playing with cheetahs and hyenas, no roaming. You’ll stay around the Tree of Life for a month to reflect on what you’ve done.” The humans and their Maker are reconciled. They serve their punishment and learn their lesson.

We don’t kick our toddlers out of the house for breaking a plate. Why should the very Embodiment of Love sever ties with His most precious creations over a first-time offense—when “I forgive you; go and sin no more” could have been sufficient?

Christianity is filled with heavy doctrines. Frankly, some of it feels very convoluted, so much acrobatics to make things comprehensive. I appreciate how Islam doesn't need all that; Original Sin, Crucifixion, etc, as far as justice, mercy and salvation goes.

You're right, it wasn’t murder or theft in the usual sense. It was disobedience. But not just breaking a random rule, it was a rupture in relationship. God gave humans everything, life, freedom, purpose, joy and one boundary to honor His authority and trust. Eating the fruit wasn’t about snacking; it was about saying, “I want to decide what’s right and wrong without You.” It was a declaration of independence from the very Source of life.

The consequence of separating from God isn’t just punishment, it’s death, because God is life. If I unplug a lamp, it doesn’t get punished—it just goes dark. Sin is unplugging from the Source, and darkness naturally follows. It’s not about God being offended over a technicality. It’s about the human race stepping out of harmony with the Creator and everything else unraveling from there.

Could God have just forgiven them? Absolutely. But forgiveness, even for God, isn’t ignoring the reality of damage. True forgiveness costs something emotionally, relationally, even spiritually. And that cost is what Jesus eventually bore. But even in the garden, God didn’t sever ties. He went looking for them. He clothed them. He promised a future Redeemer (Genesis 3:15). Discipline came, yes but not abandonment. It was a fracture, not a final goodbye.

Now about the analogy of parenting, it’s a good one. We don’t disown toddlers for breaking plates, true. But we do teach them that choices have consequences. And if that child one day grows up and says, “I don’t want your rules, your values, or your love, I’ll live how I want,” that’s not just a broken plate. That’s a broken relationship. That’s the tragedy of sin and it’s not that God won’t forgive, it’s that people can choose to reject Him.

I believe in the Holy Bible, guided by the help of the Holy Spirit. I don’t compare my faith with Islam or any other belief system. Someone once asked you question from Hebrews 11:3:
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

From there, the conversation just kept unfolding…

Christianity isn’t filled with heavy doctrines, the message is actually clear. The problem isn’t with the faith, but with how it’s often misunderstood. As Jesus said in John 5:39:
“Search the Scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.”
The heart of it all is Christ. If you truly seek Him through the Word, the message becomes clearer.

DemonSlayer:
I get what you’re trying to say, and I understand that for many people, the cross represents something deeply meaningful, I'm not trying to be offensive, please don't be offended. But honestly, I think it still doesn’t hold up when you zoom out.

So the cross is supposed to be where God's justice and love meet—but why do they even have to be in conflict in the first place? Why would God need to “satisfy” His own justice to Himself? If you wronged me, and instead of forgiving you or talking it through, I slaughtered my own child to make peace with you, I’d be deemed psychotic. But when God does it, it’s somehow considered beautiful? Other religions, e.g Islam, embrace a God who is merciful and just—without contradiction. It makes more sense.

God is the creator of all things—including love, mercy, and justice. These qualities flow from Him. If He needs blood to forgive disobedience, that’s not justice—it’s a choice. And a disturbing one at that. Imagine your child breaks a rule you created (one you knew they’d break), and for justice to be “satisfied,” someone needs to die. But because you love her, you kill yourself instead to appease your own standard of justice. Be honest—doesn’t that sound absurd?

The idea that “sin must be paid for” paints a picture of a God who is bound by a system of rules, rather than One who defines them. Why not choose restorative justice instead of punitive justice? To err is human, to forgive is divine, no?

And what about “the wages of sin is death”? Imagine if every citizen who broke a traffic law was sentenced to death by hanging—right alongside those guilty of r@pe or murd€r. A single, unbending punishment, regardless of the offense. That’s not justice—that’s tyranny.

And let’s not even get started on the idea of original sin—the notion that guilt is inherited, that we are born deserving punishment for something we didn’t do. What kind of justice system is that?

Let me share a perspective,not to argue but to offer another lens:

You’re absolutely right in saying that God is the source of justice, love, and mercy. These aren’t qualities He’s subject to; they flow from His very nature. But that’s exactly why they can’t be compromised or played against each other. Love without justice ignores real harm. Justice without love crushes the guilty. The cross is not God at war with Himself—it’s God expressing the full depth of both justice and love, simultaneously.

Your analogy about slaughtering your own child to forgive someone is powerful, but I think it’s missing something key: Jesus wasn’t just an innocent third party. In my belief and according to the scripture (John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh",) Jesus is God in the flesh. He wasn’t a victim caught in the middle—He was the one choosing to step in. That changes the entire picture. It’s more like a judge stepping down from the bench to serve the sentence on behalf of the guilty. It’s radical, yes but not senseless. It’s not God needing blood to calm Himself, it’s God absorbing the cost of justice Himself, so that mercy can be real and still be righteous.

You brought up restorative justice, and I love that. That’s actually what the cross is aiming at not just pardon, but transformation. In Christ, sin isn’t just excused, it’s dealt with. Evil is named, exposed, and broken. And we’re invited not just to be forgiven, but to be made new.

As for original sin, that’s a heavy doctrine. But it’s not about God punishing people for something they didn’t do; it’s about acknowledging that we’re born into a broken system. We all experience and contribute to a world shaped by generations of pride, injustice, and pain. The doctrine says, “This is not how things were meant to be.” And the good news is that God doesn’t leave us in it. Through Christ, He offers a new start, a new nature, and a new family.

Finally, your question about the “wages of sin is death” is fair. But it’s not about God punishing every offense with equal fury, it’s about separation from the source of life. Sin, by nature, disconnects us from God. [/b]And death is just the name for that disconnect. But the story doesn’t end there. “[b]The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Truthseeker10:
😂😂😂....funny man.....So who was the son that was sent if it was God Himself that came to die, and who sent the Son? Or Did God send himself to die?

Keep on showcasing your ignorance, thinking you're making valid points. I've already told you I don't have the energy for endless arguments, despite the fact that I never give you a direct answer. Yet you still come back, only to expose your own foolishness."

Truthseeker10:
Was it God himself that died or his son?

I'm not going to engage in endless arguments. However it appears to you, so be it.

If you believe God died to save the world — you're welcome.
If you believe the Son of God (Christ) died to save the world — you're still welcome.

The Bible verse I shared in my response still points to God.
Whether you believe it was God Himself or His Son who died — the message remains.

Shalom!

DemonSlayer:
I realize, as with every other comment that questions faith, this thread might rub some people the wrong way. But I remember this being an issue that undermined my faith when I still had it. Do you realize that God can forgive whoever He wants, whenever He wants, without needing to slaughter goats or crucify anyone—and it would be totally fine? He could simply delete the entire record of sins, and no one could say sh!t about it. Like, delete the database and completely format the hard drive—and that move would still be completely valid.

If Stephen could forgive his stoners, God can forgive Satan. And not even the vilest sin—not even Hitler’s genocide—is deserving of eternal suffering. A couple million lifetimes, maybe—one for each soul lost—but an eternity? That’s too extreme for any sin that could possibly be committed.

And don’t even get me started on the idea of a genuinely good person—someone who actually puts in the effort to be decent and live right—burning in hell forever simply for not believing the right story. That will never make sense to me.

All said, I really like Jesus, I think he was a cool fella and I absolutely dig his vibe and it's just sad that he was murdered by the state out of jealousy of a handful of religious leaders. I think the main Easter message is for people to interrogate the influence of authority, particularly religious authority.

The cross isn’t about God’s inability to forgive—it’s about the fullness of His justice and love meeting in one powerful moment. If God simply wiped away humanity’s sin without addressing the real weight of evil, He would be a merciful God, but not a just one. On the other hand, if He chose to prove His justice without showing compassion, He would be just, but not loving. The cross is where both justice and love collide perfectly—where God says, “I love you enough to take the hit Myself.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One of the most reassuring truths in Scripture is that our salvation is not fragile, temporary, or dependent on the shifting sands of our performance. It is rooted in the eternal nature of God Himself. What an Eternal God gives cannot be anything less than eternal in quality, purpose, and duration.

Jesus declares in John 10:28, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." This verse dismantles any idea that salvation is momentary or reversible. The life Christ gives is eternal—not merely a promise of long life, but a present possession of unending fellowship with God. When we come to Christ, we are not temporarily improved; we are eternally transformed.

Notice the strength of Jesus’ words: "[b]they shall never perish." [/b]The Greek here is emphatic—it rules out any possibility of spiritual ruin. Eternal life is not subject to expiration. It doesn’t depend on human effort to be maintained. If it could be lost, it would not be eternal.

Furthermore, Jesus adds, "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Our security in Christ is not just about the duration of life, but the safety of it. We are not clinging to Him with our weak grip; He is holding us with His almighty hand. The Eternal God is the one who guards our salvation, and no enemy, no failure, and no circumstance can remove us from His grasp.

To believe that salvation could be lost is to question the nature of the life He gives and the power of the One who gives it. God does not begin a work He will not finish. As Paul writes in Philippians 1:6, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

Let us rest in the confidence that the life we receive from Jesus is not a trial period, not a fragile contract, but a gift sealed by His eternal nature. The Eternal God gives eternal life—and He never changes His mind.

sonmvayina:
The new testament is a Christian/pagan ideology and scriptures. It has got nothing to do with God. The Jewish scriptures ended in Malachi. There is no such thing as a new testament. God does not make mistakes. He got it right the first time.
Man is God's spirit dwelling within a physical body made from Dust. This earth is where God's judgement takes place. When a man expires, his spirit returns to God and his body is buried for it to turn to dust. Will God judge his spirit? Does not make any sense to me. If the spirit has failed to complete his task, he is sent again. "Before you where formed in your mother's womb, I knew you"....(Reference to Jeremiah)., Naked I came from my mother's womb, naked I shall return there Job chapter 1. Etc.

There will be resurrection when God sends his true Messiah in the messianic era. There will be peace on earth and no more wars and oppression. That is true salvation.

The Jewish Scriptures clearly point forward to something greater—a promised Messiah and a new covenant. As it is written in Jeremiah 31:31, “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” This covenant reveals a deeper unfolding of God’s plan for salvation—not only for Israel, but for all nations.

Jesus did not come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets, but to fulfill them. As He said in Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” The New Testament does not contradict the Old—it completes the story God began.

I repeat: while we may see things differently, I am fully convinced that Jesus is not a pagan concept or a man-made idea. He is the Word of God made flesh, the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, and the Savior of the world. The Spirit of God within me bears witness—I know whom I serve.

Truth matters. And I pray that we both continue to seek it with sincere and humble hearts.

Jesus is the truth. John 14:6

sonmvayina:
We are living souls. We do not have a soul. We are a soul. When God sends his breath, man becomes a living soul. When the soul expires, it dissociates into the spirit going back to God and body being buried.

Why are you confusing yourself. ?
Man is a soul.

You might even be in your 10th or 12th incarnation.
We (men) are the forms through which God experiences itself or his creation.
God created man so he can experience his creation. We are all Gods having a human experience...or walking a human path. If Jesus actually existed, he is no different from you or me. Worshipping a man as God is tantamount to idolatry and it kind of diminishes us..

To us who believe in Him, He is not just a man to be compared with anyone else, but the manifestation of God’s love, mercy, and truth. Worshipping Him is not idolatry—it is acknowledging God revealed in His fullness.

I say this with respect: just as you feel your view honors God, I believe mine does too. We may see things differently, but I'm always open to honest dialogue rooted in truth and Christ is the truth.

sonmvayina:
What is but again?
Confess and forsake, I will forgive. Simple this is what a loving God will do. Not ask for a human sacrifice. That idea is pagan.
The bolded is all that is required, nothing more. Why are you bringing a pagan ideology to it. Is Gods solution not good enough that you want a human to be killed first. Is it not God that created every soul? What will he gain by asking you to murder one for him, does it even make any sense to you.
Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus, it is about a suffering servant. And Isaiah already told you who the servant is. Please check chapter 45:1-7.
Nobody needs to die before God can forgive. It is a pagan idea. When God send Jonah to Nineveh, they repented and God forgave them. No human sacrifice was involved. Why are you people insisting that Jesus is of God. He is not. He was created as a mockery/insult against God.
I only worship my creator and follow his commandments. That is ok for me. I am not going to complicate it by mixing it with paganism.
Thanks....but no thanks.

From your message, I understand that you don’t believe in our Lord Jesus. I won’t try to argue by pointing to various prophecies or shadows of Christ in the Old Testament that we hold to be true. Still, the word of God stands firm. Christ was not sent as an insult or mockery of God, but as the fulfillment of His promise.

You are free to worship your Creator and follow His commandments as you understand them.

Though we see things differently, I believe these kinds of discussions are meaningful. They push us to seek, study, and draw nearer to the truth. And for me, Christ is the truth.

From the beginning, humanity has been in need of rescue from sin and separation from God. But in our brokenness, God provided help—not temporary, but eternal—through Jesus Christ.

Psalm 46:1 – “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.”

1. Christ, Our Redeemer

We could not save ourselves, but Jesus came to redeem us through His death and resurrection. His sacrifice paid the full price for our sins.

Romans 5:6-8 – “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly... God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Ephesians 1:7 – “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.”

2. Christ, Our Advocate

Jesus not only died for us—He now lives to intercede for us. He stands as our Advocate, defending us before the Father and strengthening us in our daily walk.

Romans 8:34 – “Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.”

1 John 2:1 – “We have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.”

3. Christ, Our Hope

In a world full of uncertainty, Christ is the anchor of our souls. He gives us eternal hope, grounded in His promises and secured by His resurrection.

Titus 2:13 – “We wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 6:19 – “We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.”

4. Our Response to His Help

We don’t repay Christ—we respond to Him. We receive His gift by faith, and we live in devotion and obedience out of love.

Romans 10:9 – “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

2 Corinthians 5:15 – “And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.”


Finally;

Jesus is not just help in moments of trouble—He is the eternal help for our greatest need: salvation. He is always present, always powerful, and always willing to save.

Hebrews 7:25 – “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.”

Let us run to Him, rest in Him, and proclaim boldly:

Christ, our ever help to salvation.

sonmvayina:
I don't see how Jesus is important to us or God? If you see point it out. He only exist as a mockery against God. To insult our creator. I refuse to partake in what will insult my creator. He was created by the Roman empire just as Daniel prophesied. God has already told us to confess and forsake...he would forgive and heal our land. That is sufficient for me. He does not need a human sacrifice. See 2nd chronicles 7:14. He already provided a solution. Except you want to advice him that it is not enough. Then....go ahead.

I respect your desire to honor God, and I agree. He calls us to repent, confess, and turn from wickedness (2 Chronicles 7:14), and He is merciful to forgive. But let’s look deeper into how God chose to bring that ultimate healing.

Jesus isn't a mockery of God. He is the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan from the beginning. He wasn’t created by Rome; He was foretold long before Rome existed:

Isaiah 53:5–6 – “He was wounded for our transgressions... and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

Psalm 22, written by David centuries before Jesus, describes crucifixion in detail—long before it was even invented.

Daniel 9:26 says “the Anointed One shall be cut off, but not for Himself.” That’s not a Roman creation—that’s prophecy.


You’re right, God doesn’t need human sacrifice in the pagan sense. But Jesus wasn’t just a man. According to Scripture, He is the Word of God made flesh (John 1:14), sent out of love to take our place.

Rejecting Jesus doesn’t honor God—it rejects the very gift God gave to save us. It’s not about advising God—it’s about humbling ourselves to receive what He already planned.

God’s forgiveness is free, but it’s not cheap—it cost something. And Jesus was that willing sacrifice.

Why would I try to advise God ? His Word is perfect and true. Just take a moment to really think about that.

sonmvayina:
when man dies he ceases to exist, the spirit of God goes to him. If the spirit has not fulfilled his reason of incarnation, God can send it back to earth to finish up. The purpose is experience. Why would God punish his spirit Does not make sense to me.

I hear your point, but let’s weigh it against what Scripture actually says.

The Bible teaches resurrection, not reincarnation.

John 5:28–29 – “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Daniel 12:2 – “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

These verses are clear: after death, people sleep in the grave—not roam or reincarnate—and will be raised by God at the appointed time, either to life or to judgment.

sonmvayina:
So what is remaining? Spirit goes to God and body goes to the earth. See Psalm 104:29-31 send forth your spirit and they are created and fill the earth, take it and they die and return to dust. Which other substance is remaining.?

From Psalm 104:29-31where you quoted speaks of God’s Spirit (or breath) giving life and withdrawing it at death. It shows that life itself is fully dependent on God. But to answer your question, what remains?—the answer lies in understanding that humans aren’t just a mix of body and breath; we are living souls (Genesis 2:7).

When God formed man from the dust and breathed into him, man became a living soul—not that he had a soul, but he became one. At death, the elements separate:

The body returns to dust, The breath/spirit (the life-force) returns to God, But the soul—the person, the consciousness—ceases to function.

Until the resurrection, there's no awareness or activity (Ecclesiastes 9:5, “the dead know nothing”). So what’s “remaining” isn’t a separate part floating around—it's the record of who we are kept by God, and we await resurrection for judgment or eternal life Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt..

The soul doesn't live on independently—it sleeps in death, waiting for God to awaken it at the appointed time.

sonmvayina:
That is the only truth in your whole write up.

Every other things after that is hogwash...

I said the body returns to earth AND the spirit returns to God who gave it....is God going to judge his spirit?

See Ecclesiastes 12:7

Stop filling your head with lies. Jesus is just a pagan concept and has nothing to do with God our creator.

Bro, take a breath—you’re speaking boldly, but you’re missing some key understanding.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 does say, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” That “spirit returning to God” refers to the life-giving breath God breathed into man (see Genesis 2:7). When someone dies, that breath—our very life—goes back to the One who gave it.

But that doesn’t mean every spirit automatically enters heaven or stands in God’s favor. It simply means the life is no longer with the body. Judgment still follows, as made clear in Hebrews 9:27: “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

See this, Ecclesiastes 12:14 - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Ecclesiastes is reflecting on the reality of death—not giving a full theology on the afterlife. It’s a poetic reminder of life’s fragility, not a statement about who is saved or judged.

And as for Jesus—He’s not a pagan concept. He is the centerpiece of God’s redemptive plan, threaded all through Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

StillDtruth:
Not correct!

In the old, God's Presence was very very strongly felt. If you watch movies of the past you would experience this.

So the people of old had His Spirit to teach, lead and guide them. (This was what left when Christ Said "it is Finished and that is why the world started ending and Antichrists started as Christ had Said)

So anyone who truly wanted to be righteous could do it. Which is why people say today to older ones on temptations and sins "ah your days were better na"

So the main matter of God's visitation was to re pave His Way which had been destroyed by Isreal not keeping His Way and further made worse by the world who ensured that it was covered.

So, God came again, a second time to re pave The Way with a more solider cast that the world cannot easily erase.

What exactly is incorrect about what I said?
How does my statement align with your response?

Didn’t the path to God used to be dimly lit through types and shadows—such as the priests, the sacrifices, the Law, and the temple?
And didn’t the faithful before Christ live in hope and expectation of something greater?

Hebrews 11:39 says:
“And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.”
This shows they were waiting—they had faith, but the full reality hadn’t yet come.

But your response seemed disconnected and I honestly don’t see how it directly ties back to the core of our discussion.