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Health / Pay Parity Among Healthcare Professionals: The UK Vs. Nigeria Example by Thanks18(m): 12:18pm On May 21, 2018 |
>> Pay Parity, Equity and Equality Among Healthcare Professionals: The UK vs. Nigeria Example By Daniel Okpla Onaji Pay Parity, Equity and Equality Among Healthcare Professionals: The UK vs. Nigeria Example By Daniel Okpla Onaji 0 On 21/May/2018 / In Articles Twines of conscience twines me like a meandering snake when I ruminate on the senseless debacle that has engulfed the Nigerian health sector for years now. Historically, the Nigerian medical doctors use the Nigerian Medical association (NMA) or the National Association of Resident Doctors (NARD) and other affiliates to persuade the government to either increase their wages or prevent the government from honouring agreement with other healthcare workers. Hardly has the NMA gone on strike to press for improved infrastructure or the alarming state of decay in the health sector. To define the terms above; - Pay Parity can be defined as the state or condition of receiving equal income, allowances and/attaining equal socio-economic status. - Equity is defined as the quality or state of being fair and impartial to all concerned. - Equality is defined as the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities without discriminating against others. Everyone has the right to chose the profession they deem best for themselves. It is ones' choice to be a medical doctor, and another to be a nurse, radiographer, laboratory scientist or physiotherapist, all working to deliver best of care to the patient. In the UK, the health sector is seen as a multi-disciplinary sector where team work is enshrined in healthcare delivery for the overall benefit of the patient. In Nigeria, the salary of most other health professional is less than 40% that of the doctors at entry point and most will need to work for about 15 years to get to the grade level of a newly qualified medical doctor. To earn the same as a newly qualified medical doctor, most healthcare workers will have to work for about 15 years, assuming they receive specialist training and are promptly promoted. Recently, other healthcare professionals in (the NHS) England got an increment based on negotiations with all their affiliate bodies without a query from the British Medical Association(BMA). When it favours the NMA, they refer to international best practices. A quick comparism of pay parity among doctors and radiographers in the UK visa-vis Nigeria will help, as follows: In the UK (2018), basic salary for junior doctors/foundation year 1 (FY1) starts at about £26,614 rising to £76,761 (specialist medical consultant) .It takes about 19 years to progress from FY1 to specialist consultant in the UK. Basic pay for a newly qualified radiographer / (band 5) is £23,023 rising to £62,001 (Band specialist or consultant radiographer. As a radiographer, it takes about 15 years to progress from band 5 to band 8. In the Nigeria (2018), basic salary for junior doctors (CONMESS1/GL12) starts at about N240,000 rising to about N850,000 (COMESS 9/GL 16 (specialist medical consultant). It takes about 10 years to progress from house officer to specialist consultant in Nigeria if you pass your examinations. Basic pay for newly qualified radiographer / (CONHESS 9/GL10) is N140,000 rising to about N500,000 (CONHESS 15) deputy director, radiography. As a radiographer, it takes about 23 years to progress from senior radiographer to deputy director if you achieve professional skills and duly promoted. The above comparism, although confirms pay parity, but clearly contrast the huge pay gap between a newly qualified medical doctor and a newly qualified radiographer in Nigeria visa-vis their UK counterpart.. Yes, the NMA insists parity is "sarcrosant" but denies that parity has been implemented ab initio entry point for the doctors. In 2009, the federal government approved CONMESS for medical doctors and CONHESS for other professionals and workers in the sector. At the entry point, the pay disparity between the two salary structure fall short of all know international best practices for equity. This injustice was further entrenched in 2014, against the tenets of the 2009 agreement, the federal government approved an upward adjustment of CONMESS for the doctors without an equivalent upward adjustment of CONHESS for other healthcare workers. In the UK, pay parity is implemented only at entry point and any further pay negotiation between the NHS and any trade union is implemented without the fury of BMA. Most healthcare professionals or groups can earn as much as they can clock in their hours based on service needs and skills/expertise. So you find a radiographer clock so many hours and may earn more than a specialist registrar whose services are not needed as that of the radiographer. Will Nigerian doctors allow this to happen here?. NMA is opposed to other healthcare professionals becoming consultants working in the hospital. In the UK, a radiographer can rise to become a specialist /advanced practitioner radiographer (reporting plain x-ray, cathlab, cardiac CT, cardiac MRI, etc) or consultant radiographer ( mammographer, cathlab, ultrasound, etc). In the UK, a lot of Nigerian radiographers, nurses and midwives carry out ultrasound services but Nigerian doctors do not allow Nigerians radiographers/sonographers including those returning from the UK to practice especially in the teaching hospitals where the doctors hold court. In the UK, all the managers/heads of departments/units of NHS radiology are radiographers, working side by side doctors/radiologists who are appointed as clinical leads. The same goes for biomedical, physiotherapy, etc including the private hospitals (BUPA, SPIRE, BMI) where even non-medical mangers hold sway. The NMA is opposed to the appointment of other health care professional as minister of health, minister of state for health, chief medical directors, chairman medical advisory committee, heads of departments and units including department such as radiography, pathology, medical laboratory etc. In the UK ( as well as most parts of europe) , the secretary of health and chief executives of most NHS are non-doctors. Jeremy Hunt is the current secretary of state for health and social care in the UK and holds a degree in philosophy. I recall the uproar when prince Julius Adelusi ( a pharmacist) was appointed minister of health. The NMA fought him to a stand-still because he was "not medically" qualified to be appointed minister of health in Nigeria. The birth of JOHESU is the greatest hope of liberation of the health sector from the mundane perception that the ministry of health belongs to doctors and doctors alone. JOHESU stands for Justice (not Injustice), Order (not anarchy), Humility (not arrogance), Equity (not inequality), Service (not slavery) and Unity (not disharmony). The NMA needs to imbibe these values in order to move the health sector forward. The way forward is for Nigerian doctors to put their patients first, understand that the health sector is multi-disciplinary and team work is the only way forward for service delivery in the interest of the patient . At the moment, they pay lip service to team work. The times have moved on from when every other health worker is seen as part of the doctor's tool. The days are gone when the doctors built schools of nursing, medical laboratory and radiography awarding diplomas while doctors alone got MBBS degree from the universities. Knowledge and technological advances now demystify most skills including healthcare. Knowledge boundaries are getting thinner. Patients now demands more choices, knowledge and rights about their treatment never like before. Artificial Intelligence, telemedicine, virtual reality learning are tools knocking on everyone's door and demands a more open approach to patient treatment. JOHESU and other healthcare workers must demonstrate that patient is the king and the reason why everyone is in the business of healthcare. The place of the doctor as a clinical lead must be sacrosanct, as is the practice globally. Also, Doctors do not hold exclusive knowledge in human resource management and other professionals with pre-requisite knowledge and skills must be allowed to manage our health systems. Any agitation for improved condition of service of healthcare workers must have patient interest at the centre. #thereality Source: https://www.medicalworldnigeria.com/2018/05/pay-parity-equity-and-equality-among-healthcare-professionals-the-uk-vs-nigeria-example-by-daniel-okpla-onaji 3 Likes 1 Share |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:58am On May 21, 2018 |
MistadeRegal: Yes, let him return to daura by 2019 |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:51am On May 21, 2018 |
mansamusa08: As you sure you have ever encountered a qualified and licenced physiotherapist/physical therapist and not quackeries, Traditional bone setters & herbalist who parade as professionals and even usurp the role of orthopedic surgeon and physiotherapist. Even at that, Stroke is a neurological condition thus a long term management and its prognosis is dependent on extent of CVA. 5 Likes |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:44am On May 21, 2018 |
Johnrake69: Indeed our university curriculum is in a mess and should be totally overhauled. Nigeria is still in darkness |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:39am On May 21, 2018 |
MistadeRegal: The same way, he detested the entire hospitals and centres in Nigeria since 2015 and cannot entrust his delicate health to Nigerian physicians even for a mere ear disease. Thus, he regards all health professionals in Nigeria as inferior when compared to his "superior" British medical personnel. 1 Like |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 12:20am On May 21, 2018 |
Greyworld:Yes you are right 2 Likes |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:51pm On May 20, 2018 |
Greyworld: In the same vein, there's no qualified doctors in Nigeria to treat the king who also personally and unofficially made London to be Nigeria capital due to medical tourism. Nigerian physicians are qualified for commoners but not worthy to touch the KING himself 81 Likes 5 Shares |
Politics / Re: Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 10:51pm On May 20, 2018 |
[quote author=Greyworld post=67733517] There are qualified personnel for "commoners" not worthy to touch the King's son. [/quote ? |
Health / Re: PHOTOS: Doctors Treat 19 Striking Health Workers Involved In Motor Accident by Thanks18(m): 10:42pm On May 20, 2018 |
frank41: Laughable You are daft and responding to you again is a waste of resources. The garbage and riddle you vomited out here shows that you are a liability bent on wasting the resources and energy of your kith and kin in training you in school. So they better give you a corner of your village so that you can practice your herbalism and quackery. I am an enthusiastic Physiotherapist with a singular aim to rub ideas with intelligent fellows in health team and not a complete illiterate like you. |
Politics / Yusuf Buhari's Rehabilitation: Nigeria Society Of Physiotherapy Reacts by Thanks18(m): 9:34pm On May 20, 2018 |
Buhari’s son’s post-operative: ‘Nigeria has over 750 trained specialists to handle such' https://www.dailytrust.com.ng/buhari-s-son-s-post-operative-nigeria-has-over-750-trained-specialists-to-handle-such-251497.html 9 Likes 5 Shares
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Health / Re: PHOTOS: Doctors Treat 19 Striking Health Workers Involved In Motor Accident by Thanks18(m): 9:25pm On May 20, 2018 |
frank41: Are you okay at all? Did you actually read my post before mentioning me? Who told that other healthcare professions including physiotherapist did not write professional exam at every stage? how should one year extra in school make physician to be alpha and omega in health sector? if you don't have any valid and objective points to marshal out instead of these petty sentiments and trash, why not keep mute and learn by googling how most developed health system in the world runs with their physicians working as team member with other health care givers in the sector. Do it fast and thank me later |
Health / Re: PHOTOS: Doctors Treat 19 Striking Health Workers Involved In Motor Accident by Thanks18(m): 9:22pm On May 20, 2018 |
frank41: Are you okay at all? Did you actually read my post before mentioning me? Who told that other healthcare professions including physiotherapist did not write professional exam at every stage? how should one year extra in school make physician to be alpha and omega in health sector? if you don't have any valid and objective points to marshal out instead of these petty sentiments and trash, why not keep mute and learn by googling how most developed health system in the world runs with their physicians working as team member with other health care givers in the sector. Do it fast and thank me later |
Health / Re: No Accident Involving UBTH JOHESU Members. by Thanks18(m): 6:34pm On May 20, 2018 |
Dear Esteemed JOHESU members, greetings to you ALL. THE STRIKE IS ONGOING. Why do they need JOHESU members to return to work by force. Come to think of it, why is the ministry riding on another horse (NGO) to issues directive to MD's and CMD 'S? I believed some of the CMD' S are not fools, they have their own hospital barrister who could advise them accordingly because the Minister is desperate right now and he is making mockery of himself at every move he is making contrary to resolving the issues at hand. The MDs and CMDs cannot deny the FACT that paying JOHESU SABOUTEOUS is not the solution to the issues at hand. The Minister of Health and the ministry should be bold enough to take JOHESU to court. Why are they avoiding the same court they flagrantly ignored and disobeyed Nine (9) good times. Is it not embarrassing, shameful, for the ministry to jump on the line of NGO court arrangement they organized. The plans with NGO as fore runner is not working. Let THE PRESIDENCY, THE SENATE, OR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE take JOHESU to court, but to INTERNATIONAL COURT WHERE NO PARTY COULD DISOBEY and all INTERNATIONAL BEST PRACTICES adhere to. OPENING OF REGISTER IS NOT NEW, THE SAME REGISTER MAY BE VERY USEFUL TO THE UNION TOMORROW. BE STRONG, FIRM AND RESOLUTE, WHAT EVER THAT HAS A BEGINNING MUST HAVE AN END. DON'T GIVE UP VICTORY IS CERTAIN. Com Fred: No body should be afraid,it was JOHESU leadership that declared the strike ,they are d ones empowered to relax or call members back to work. No one shd write any register for now. Afterall govt has named the JOHESU leaders they are interested in. Commit our actions n further actions for victory this holy month of Ramadan as we pray n take action. From NUAHP President |
Health / Re: No Accident Involving UBTH JOHESU Members. by Thanks18(m): 4:20pm On May 20, 2018 |
neonly: You are daft. what concerns APC with this post. Or are you still in touch with reality? |
Health / No Accident Involving UBTH JOHESU Members. by Thanks18(m): 3:51pm On May 20, 2018 |
*VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH |
Health / Re: PHOTOS: Doctors Treat 19 Striking Health Workers Involved In Motor Accident by Thanks18(m): 3:46pm On May 20, 2018 |
frank41: *VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH |
Health / Re: PHOTOS: Doctors Treat 19 Striking Health Workers Involved In Motor Accident by Thanks18(m): 3:44pm On May 20, 2018 |
CeoNewshelm: *VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH |
Health / Re: Doctors At ISTH Irrua Respond To Mass Casualty Involving UBTH JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 7:14am On May 20, 2018 |
*VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH |
Health / Re: Federal Health Workers Under The Umbrella Of JOHESU Embark On Indefinite Trike by Thanks18(m): 7:10am On May 20, 2018 |
*VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH 1 Like |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 7:08am On May 20, 2018 |
*VERY IMPORTANT* # Fowardedasrecieved . # COPIED # Our attention has been drawn to news making the round that UBTH JOHESU EXCO members were involved in a road traffic accident today 19.05.2018 on their way to Auchi in Edo state. While there was indeed a road traffic accident: ** the victims are neither UBTH JOHESU EXCO NOR MEMBERS** We understand the desperation of the sponsors of this false news to always seek ways to score cheap points but we are saddened by the fact that they could descend so low as seeing the pain and anguish of the accident victims as something to be celebrated to the extent of uploading the pictures of this NIGERIANS IN PAIN to the whole world. I want to state here again that this news is not correct as no UBTH JOHESU MEMBERS were involved in any kind of accident today and we shall by the GRACE OF GOD NOT BE INVOLVED IN ANY. We want to advise ARD/NMA members to always check their facts and avoid rushing into conclusions so as not to continue spreading falsehoods to the general public. They could have asked questions and get correct answers before painting the social media red with this lies. I advice the NMA to avoid wishing JOHESU MEMBERS evil as evidenced by the way they celebrated this falsehood on the social media. WE WISH THE VICTIMS OF THIS R.T.A A VERY QUICK RECOVERY. WE ALSO APPEAL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO PREVAIL ON THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND LABOUR TO QUICKLY PUT AN END TO THIS STRIKE BY DOING THE NEEDFUL. GOD WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT JOHESU MEMBERS. OUR DEMANDS ARE LEGITIMATE. GOD BLESS JOHESU. OSIGBEME AUGUSTINE Chairman, NANNM UBTH 1 Like 1 Share |
Health / Uk Health Council by Thanks18(m): 12:46pm On May 19, 2018 |
*UK HEALTH COUNCIL* In united kingdom where our president and other senators often seek medical care, leaving our jeopardized health system being managed by minister of doctors over the years without meaningful development, but rather what we are experiencing are anarchy, morbid egocentric mentality, industrial disharmony, superiority complexes, and strong desire to head all departments. They have termed other health care professionals such as Physiotherapists, Nurses, Medical Laboratory Scientists, Pharmacists, Optometrists, Radiographers, Dieticians and Occupational therapists as Non medical Health workers and they are the only medical health workers in Nigeria. With this showmanship of ignorance and acute behaviour of catatonic schizophrenia found among medical doctors in Nigeria. We wish to explain how the UK HEALTH COUNCIL IS HEADED. *UK Minister of State For Health- Stephen Barclay* ; - He studied Law at the College of Law, Chester. *UK Secretary of state for Health and Social care- Jeremy Hunt MP* ;- He studied philosophy, politics and economics at Magdelen College, Oxford. *UK Minister of State for Care- Caroline Dinenage* ;- She studied Politics and English at Swansea University *UK Secretary of State for Mental Health and Inequalities- Jackie Dougle* ;- She studied economics at University College, Durham *UK Secretary of State for Public Health and Primary care- Steve Brina MP* - He studied History from Liverpool Hope University Is it not laughable that NMA is citing International best practices, I wonder where their own international best practices came from. Concerned UGONSITE JOHESUITE |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 12:45pm On May 19, 2018 |
*UK HEALTH COUNCIL* In united kingdom where our president and other senators often seek medical care, leaving our jeopardized health system being managed by minister of doctors over the years without meaningful development, but rather what we are experiencing are anarchy, morbid egocentric mentality, industrial disharmony, superiority complexes, and strong desire to head all departments. They have termed other health care professionals such as Physiotherapists, Nurses, Medical Laboratory Scientists, Pharmacists, Optometrists, Radiographers, Dieticians and Occupational therapists as Non medical Health workers and they are the only medical health workers in Nigeria. With this showmanship of ignorance and acute behaviour of catatonic schizophrenia found among medical doctors in Nigeria. We wish to explain how the UK HEALTH COUNCIL IS HEADED. *UK Minister of State For Health- Stephen Barclay* ; - He studied Law at the College of Law, Chester. *UK Secretary of state for Health and Social care- Jeremy Hunt MP* ;- He studied philosophy, politics and economics at Magdelen College, Oxford. *UK Minister of State for Care- Caroline Dinenage* ;- She studied Politics and English at Swansea University *UK Secretary of State for Mental Health and Inequalities- Jackie Dougle* ;- She studied economics at University College, Durham *UK Secretary of State for Public Health and Primary care- Steve Brina MP* - He studied History from Liverpool Hope University Is it not laughable that NMA is citing International best practices, I wonder where their own international best practices came from. Concerned UGONSITE JOHESUITE |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 10:00am On May 19, 2018 |
optm: Bros, you should have ignored him for silence is the best answer to a fool. I just observed he is still a student. Reality has not dawn on him. Let him graduate and come and meet us in the hospital. He will know where he belong. 1 Like |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 7:39am On May 19, 2018 |
Jack of all trades. master of none. We are in the modern era for goodness sake. From 19th century till date, after the French revolution and industrial revolution in the west, there became an emphasis on specialization of skills and knowledge for more productivity and usefulness. One day, NMA members will claim to know jurisprudence better than lawyers since they did a bit in school. They may also claim to know A level biology, chemistry and physics better than biologist, chemist and physicist respectively. Sometimes, I wonder why there's rampant increase of impunity in all our sectors and national existence as some derail folks foster a supremacy agenda on others. Fulani herdsmen are fighting a supremacy war on the whole 250 tribes in Nigeria; NMA is fighting a supremacy agenda in our backward health sector; At times, some zealous lawyer also even claimed to be the only learned profession in the country. I am a physiotherapist and there's no other profession in Nigeria can brag that he knows my discipline better. Everybody should know their limit. Physician does not know pharmacology more than pharmacist. They know just a bit of it in order to practice Anyone claiming such should submitted self for examination. 2 Likes |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 3:38pm On May 18, 2018 |
TempoJames: Pls read this so that you will make objective point. I also have my own tale of the harsh undergraduate era. So don't hype it as if yours is from another planet. NMA said the reason for coveting these offices is because other health workers are not "medically qualified" even though they all finished from the same college of medicine; took same or similar causes together or as separate departments. Let's look at the so called international best practices. Lets look at the ministers of health of following countries: 1. France minister of health Morisol Touraine. She is not a degree holder. Studied At Ecole Normale Supereure and specialized in Economics and social issues. 2. Germany minister of health Jens Spahn. Studied Political science and Law at University of Hagen. 3. Saudi Arabia minister of health. Dr. Tawfiq Al Ravish. Obtain bachelor degree in Financial management and Mathematics, then 2 masters in computer science and information science. 4. Israel minister of health. Yaakov Litzman. Studied Torah and his first job was principal of Yaakov Girls school and then join politics. 5. Spain minister of health, social, security and Equality. Dolors Montserrat. A Lawyer and politician. She specialized in Real Estate and Environmental Law. 6. India minister of health Jagat Prakash Nadda. He a graduate of Law at Himachal Prakash. 7. Canada minister of health Genette Petitpas Taylor. She has bachelor degree in Social work. Non of the above ministers study medicine and they are health ministers of their countries. Yet Isaac Adewole and NMA are saying our ministry of health institutions most be headed by medical doctors, ie. the international best practice. # copied and edited. 3 Likes |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 1:50pm On May 18, 2018 |
TempoJames: Laughable No valid point made |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 11:59am On May 18, 2018 |
JOHESU AND NIGERIAN GOVERNMENT VS NMA HEALTH BATTLE: THIS IS THE CONCLUSION OF THE MATTER By Fejiro Oliver The equal right of all citizens to health, education, work, food, security, culture, science, and wellbeing – that is, the same rights we proclaimed when we began our struggle, in addition to those which emerge from our dreams of justice and equality for all inhabitants of our world – is what I wish for all. Fidel Castro This is a long write-up for intellectuals who can research and not those who dwell in shallow arguments. For two years, I purposely stayed away from writing as an individual on issues that bothered about the health sector in Nigeria, to enable me research on the true international best practices and come out with an informed and none bias position. Apart from education and defense, the most important aspect of a country is its health sector. Sadly enough, the sector in Nigeria has been bedeviled by animosity and fierce battle between the two prominent groups, namely; Joint Health Sector Union (JOHESU) and the Nigerian Medical Association (NMA). JOHESU consists of all workers in the hospitals apart from Physicians and Dentists who make up NMA. I have decided to skip the word ‘doctor’ for a reason, which will be explained later. Nigeria is currently shut down with death toll rising every twenty four hours since JOHESU embarked on their strike last week. Despite the Federal Government refusal to pay them April salaries, they are bent on not going to work, until their demands are met. The argument from both sides is reasonable, depending on the prism through which one views it. JOHESU is insisting that the FG honors all the agreement it reached with them, especially as it has to do with allowing their members to reach consultancy level, upward review of the CONHESS salary as agreed with FG, retirement age at 65 and few others. NMA on the other hand believes that the increment in salary for JOHESU will place them at par. They have also fought some JOHESU professionals from attaining consultancy status as well as using the prefix ‘Doctor’ before their name. First of all, who is a Doctor? The word was never a medical word from origin. It is a Latin word from 1300, which means “Church father,” from Old French doctour, from Medieval Latin doctor “religious teacher, adviser, scholar,” in classical Latin “teacher,” agent noun from docere “to show, teach, cause to know,” originally “make to appear right,” causative of decere “be seemly, fitting,” from PIE root dek- “to take, accept”, as defined by etymonline. When the art of healing came into serious practice, the word ‘Doctor’ was used to replace the word ‘leech’, which they were initially called. It therefore brings us to the argument on those entitled to use the suffix ‘Dr’ before their names in the health sector. First of all, it’s an acceptable fact that no one went to school to study ‘doctoring’. Unlike Engineers who derived their title from their course of study, this is not entirely so in the health sector. In the school of health or school of medicine, as it’s called in different universities, the courses are Medicine, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Nursing, Medical Rehabilitation or Physical Medicine, Radiography, Medical Laboratory and Optometry. None of these courses is called Doctoring. The word Doctor came to be associated with the art of healing in the medieval period and were initially called Physician and still called so till date. With the advent of Doctor of Philosophy which is the highest level associated with teaching, it later became ascribed to those saddled with the art of healing. The question now bothers to who is a healer in the health profession and who is a paramedic; a degrading word that has been used many times by Nigerian Physicians to spite other medical workers, who retaliates by calling them Allopathic officers. In line with international best practices, only the World Health Organisation (WHO) not World Medical Association and International Labor Organisation (ILO) can define the meaning of every profession. In listing structures for each worker, all professionals were listed as ‘Health Professionals’ and not ‘Medical Professionals’. They were divided into two health groups for easy recognition. The first group listed are: Medical Doctors (Generalist Medical Practitioners and Specialist Medical Practitioners), Nursing and Midwifery Professionals, Traditional and Complementary Medicine Professionals, ***Paramedical Practitioners and Veterinarians. The second group listed Dentists, Pharmacists, Environmental and Occupational Health and Hygiene Professionals, Physiotherapists, Dieticians and Nutritionists, Audiologists and Speech Therapists, Optometrists and Ophthalmic Opticians and Health Professionals Not Elsewhere Classified. Note that Dentists which is a member of NMA is in the second category and Paramedics in the first category, according to International best practices that we like to flout. Let us take a look at WHO definition of these core workers in the health sector. According to WHO, ‘a Generalist medical doctors (including family and primary care doctors) diagnose, TREAT and prevent illness, disease, injury, and other physical and mental impairments and maintain general health in humans through application of the principles and procedures of modern medicine. They plan, supervise and evaluate the implementation of care and treatment plans by other health care providers. They do not limit their practice to certain disease categories or methods of treatment, and may assume responsibility for the provision of continuing and comprehensive medical care to individuals, families and communities’. Same WHO notes that ‘Nursing professionals provide TREATMENT, support and care services for people who are in need of nursing care due to the effects of ageing, injury, illness or other physical or mental impairment, or potential risks to health, according to the practice and standards of modern nursing. They assume responsibility for the planning and management of the care of patients, including the supervision of other health care workers, working autonomously or in teams with medical doctors and others in the practical application of preventive and curative measures in clinical and community settings’. Going down to traditional level, WHO was direct when it stated that ‘Traditional and complementary medicine professionals examine patients and prevent and TREAT illness, disease, injury and other physical, mental and psychosocial ailments by applying knowledge, skills and practices acquired through extensive study of the theories and experiences originating in specific cultures. They research, develop and implement treatment plans using applications such as acupuncture, ayurvedic, homoeopathic and herbal medicine’. For Dentists, the world body noted that ‘Dentists (including dental surgeons and related) diagnose, TREAT and prevent diseases, injuries and abnormalities of the teeth, mouth, jaws and associated tissues by applying the principles and procedures of modern dentistry. They use a broad range of specialized diagnostic, surgical and other techniques to promote and restore oral health’. According to its supreme definition, ‘Pharmacists store, preserve, compound and dispense medicinal products. They counsel on the proper use and adverse effects of drugs and medicines following prescriptions issued by medical doctors and other health professionals. They contribute to researching, testing, preparing, prescribing and monitoring medicinal therapies for optimizing human health’. For Physiotherapists, WHO didn’t mince word saying that ‘Physiotherapists assess, plan and implement rehabilitative programs that improve or restore human motor functions, maximize movement ability, relieve pain syndromes, and treat or prevent physical challenges associated with injuries, diseases and other impairments. They apply a broad range of physical therapies and techniques such as movement, ultrasound, heating, laser and other techniques. They may develop and implement programmes for screening and prevention of common physical ailments and disorders. ILO in classifying their job stated that “Physiotherapists and related associate professionals TREAT disorders of bones, muscles and parts of the circulatory or the nervous system by manipulative methods, and ultrasound, heating, laser or similar techniques, or apply physiotherapy and related therapies as part of the treatment for the physically disabled, mentally ill or unbalanced. For Optometrists, the world body says Optometrists and ophthalmic opticians provide diagnosis, management and TREATMENT services for disorders of the eyes and visual system. They counsel and advise on eye care and safety, and prescribe optical aids or other therapies for visual disturbance. While this may sound as a thesis, I will leave out what the sacred definition of WHO and ILO gave to the two eyes of medicine, notably Radiography and Medical Laboratory. The reader can Google it up. By these definitions, five professions TREAT sicknesses and disorders and one provides the drugs or body gel they prescribe, while two gives a clearer picture of the diagnosis through tests and imaging. They are General Practitioner called Medical Doctor, Traditional or complimentary medicine practitioners/ Homeopathy, Dentists, Nurses, Optometrists and Physiotherapists. Nursing being a unique and distinct profession cannot be called Doctors, but the rest whose primary duties is to diagnose treat and certify fit can be called Doctor if their regulatory body so wish. On consultancy status, it is criminal for a profession to demand for such almighty position simply because of the years spent in service and not by merit. It’s akin to saying a lecturer can rise to the level of Professorship without studying to get PhD. This is where I disagree with JOHESU. Medical Doctors who are consultants didn’t jump the rope. They went through the rigors of residency training, became fellows and merited it. Medical practice is not law that is determined by the years of practice which leads to the award of SAN. It is study, quest to break medical grounds and solve the everyday health challenges that the world faces. No amount of experience can totally give clinicians that except devotion to knowledge, which is gained through the appropriate postgraduate school or colleges. It is however unjust for the current disparity in salaries of the two warring groups. Whoever separated the salary structure into CONMESS and CONHESS is the common enemy that we should be fighting today. It’s absurd and ridiculous that a House Officer will earn higher than a working class Nurse or any other core medical practitioners, when the difference in study is one year. Only a specialist GP should be allowed to earn more than any other clinician, who refuses to also specialize in his/her own field. The FG should as a matter of urgency make all health workers one salary structure, and their wages determined by level of qualification and specialty as operated globally. The Ministry of Health should be headed by hospitals administrators and not physicians, just as the hospitals should not also be headed by a Dentist or Nurse. For heaven sake, it’s a profit making venture and not a professional body that the Medical Doctors heading it have turned it to. Only the Chief Medical Advisory Committee (CMAC) head should be a Physician while the Deputy CMAC should be from other clinical department like Medical Laboratory or Pharmacy. International best practices that we scream always have proven that the top countries in medical field do not have any health worker as their Minister or Head of health sector. Oh, what about the almighty WHO that defines health, the head is not also a medical doctor, but a biologist. If WHO was a Nigerian union, it’s crystal clear that there would have been strike if a Nurse is appointed the head. What then are we saying? As for JOHESU, calling off the strike now will forever bring your union to doom. Let the government stop salaries till next year, but do not give in to threats and blackmail. Your requests apart from ‘consultancy by years of service’ are just, and Nigerians are solidly behind you, even though we are the ones that ultimately feel the pain. There’s unity in strength and this is the time to be united. The battle is not against NMA but the Federal Government who reserves the right to implement your demands. Every profession is independent of each other and this right to decency of work cannot be taken from you, not now, tomorrow or in the future. To be continued… These little things matter… Fejiro Oliver, an Investigative Journalist, Media Consultant and Human Rights Activist is also the Co-Convener of Coalition of Human Rights Defender (CHORD) and can be reached on +2348022050733 (SMS ONLY) or secretsreporters@gmail.com. Engage him on twitter on @fejirooliver86. |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 11:58am On May 18, 2018 |
phemy2kme: Pls read this article below in case you missed it and understand how WHO defined international best practices regarding medical practice in the world. Intl best practice is not defined by ILO, NMA and health ministry. |
Health / Re: Press Briefing By Johesu Held On Thursday May 17, 2018 by Thanks18(m): 8:25am On May 18, 2018 |
# fowardedasrecieved .
Breaking news.... ABUJA – THE Joint Health Sector Union,
JOHESU, Thursday night relaxed its four weeks
old strike in Lagos, Kano and Yobe states to
accommodate emergency services.
JOHESU
The union said that the decision to relax the
strike in the three states as a show of
appreciation to the state governments for
meeting the clamour and terms of settlement
demanded by the unions.
Speaking to journalists at a press briefing, the
National President of JOHESU, Biobelemoye
Josiah, also called for the immediate sack of
the Minister of Health, Isaac Adewole;
accusing him of posing as a major barrier to
the resolution of the on-going nationwide
strike of health workers.
His words: “It is paramount we seize this
discourse to specially convey deep
appreciation to State Governments which have
gone ahead to meet the various clamours and
terms of settlement in agreements with
government. This include Yobe and Lagos
State which have now adjusted the CONHESS
Scale as demanded.
“We specially commend the Lagos State
Government for approving the consultancy
cadre for pharmacists in its employment. Just
like the Niger State Government did with
pharmacists since 2012.
“The JOHESU also expresses gratitude to the
Kano State government for ensuring good
welfare package for its healthcare work force
in addition to the intervention of His
Excellency Governor Ganduje to ameliorate the
on-going strike action.
“We urge our members in Lagos, Yobe and
Kano to tactically relax the strike to
accommodate emergency services in those
states as a measure of goodwill.
“President Buhari should immediately remove
Professor Isaac Adewole from office, as his
continued stay remains a major barrier to the
resolution of the on-going nationwide strike of
health workers. This is a major threat to Public
Health especially at a time that the dreaded
Ebola disease is currently rampaging in some
African Countries.
“The Federal Government must energise the
deadlocked negotiations between the JOHESU
and Federal Ministry of Labour and
Employment with genuine conciliators who
have national interest.
“Specifically, a befitting budget to offset the
already compromised three options presented
by JOHESU to the Federal Government on May
16, 2018 must be made available through
interventions facilitated by the Office of the
Secretary to the Government of the
Federation.
“We demand an immediate implementation of
the terms of settlement of the September 30,
2017 agreement.”
We’ll boycott further negotiations, if….
On the order by the National Industrial Court
directing members of the union to suspend
their on-going strike, and resume duties across
the nation within 24 hours, Comrade Josiah
said: “We have not been served any court
notice. But if it happens that the Ministries of
Health and Labour in any way sponsored the
ex-parte motion that brought about the court
order, we will boycott further negotiations.
“The two ministries lack the moral right to
take JOHESU to court for any reason, having
disobeyed no less than eight court orders in
favour of the union.” |
Health / Re: Court Orders JOHESU To End Strike And Resume Work Within 24 Hours by Thanks18(m): 8:24am On May 18, 2018 |
# fowardedasrecieved .
Breaking news.... ABUJA – THE Joint Health Sector Union,
JOHESU, Thursday night relaxed its four weeks
old strike in Lagos, Kano and Yobe states to
accommodate emergency services.
JOHESU
The union said that the decision to relax the
strike in the three states as a show of
appreciation to the state governments for
meeting the clamour and terms of settlement
demanded by the unions.
Speaking to journalists at a press briefing, the
National President of JOHESU, Biobelemoye
Josiah, also called for the immediate sack of
the Minister of Health, Isaac Adewole;
accusing him of posing as a major barrier to
the resolution of the on-going nationwide
strike of health workers.
His words: “It is paramount we seize this
discourse to specially convey deep
appreciation to State Governments which have
gone ahead to meet the various clamours and
terms of settlement in agreements with
government. This include Yobe and Lagos
State which have now adjusted the CONHESS
Scale as demanded.
“We specially commend the Lagos State
Government for approving the consultancy
cadre for pharmacists in its employment. Just
like the Niger State Government did with
pharmacists since 2012.
“The JOHESU also expresses gratitude to the
Kano State government for ensuring good
welfare package for its healthcare work force
in addition to the intervention of His
Excellency Governor Ganduje to ameliorate the
on-going strike action.
“We urge our members in Lagos, Yobe and
Kano to tactically relax the strike to
accommodate emergency services in those
states as a measure of goodwill.
“President Buhari should immediately remove
Professor Isaac Adewole from office, as his
continued stay remains a major barrier to the
resolution of the on-going nationwide strike of
health workers. This is a major threat to Public
Health especially at a time that the dreaded
Ebola disease is currently rampaging in some
African Countries.
“The Federal Government must energise the
deadlocked negotiations between the JOHESU
and Federal Ministry of Labour and
Employment with genuine conciliators who
have national interest.
“Specifically, a befitting budget to offset the
already compromised three options presented
by JOHESU to the Federal Government on May
16, 2018 must be made available through
interventions facilitated by the Office of the
Secretary to the Government of the
Federation.
“We demand an immediate implementation of
the terms of settlement of the September 30,
2017 agreement.”
We’ll boycott further negotiations, if….
On the order by the National Industrial Court
directing members of the union to suspend
their on-going strike, and resume duties across
the nation within 24 hours, Comrade Josiah
said: “We have not been served any court
notice. But if it happens that the Ministries of
Health and Labour in any way sponsored the
ex-parte motion that brought about the court
order, we will boycott further negotiations.
“The two ministries lack the moral right to
take JOHESU to court for any reason, having
disobeyed no less than eight court orders in
favour of the union.” |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 8:20am On May 18, 2018 |
# fowardedasrecieved .
Breaking news.... ABUJA – THE Joint Health Sector Union,
JOHESU, Thursday night relaxed its four weeks
old strike in Lagos, Kano and Yobe states to
accommodate emergency services.
JOHESU
The union said that the decision to relax the
strike in the three states as a show of
appreciation to the state governments for
meeting the clamour and terms of settlement
demanded by the unions.
Speaking to journalists at a press briefing, the
National President of JOHESU, Biobelemoye
Josiah, also called for the immediate sack of
the Minister of Health, Isaac Adewole;
accusing him of posing as a major barrier to
the resolution of the on-going nationwide
strike of health workers.
His words: “It is paramount we seize this
discourse to specially convey deep
appreciation to State Governments which have
gone ahead to meet the various clamours and
terms of settlement in agreements with
government. This include Yobe and Lagos
State which have now adjusted the CONHESS
Scale as demanded.
“We specially commend the Lagos State
Government for approving the consultancy
cadre for pharmacists in its employment. Just
like the Niger State Government did with
pharmacists since 2012.
“The JOHESU also expresses gratitude to the
Kano State government for ensuring good
welfare package for its healthcare work force
in addition to the intervention of His
Excellency Governor Ganduje to ameliorate the
on-going strike action.
“We urge our members in Lagos, Yobe and
Kano to tactically relax the strike to
accommodate emergency services in those
states as a measure of goodwill.
“President Buhari should immediately remove
Professor Isaac Adewole from office, as his
continued stay remains a major barrier to the
resolution of the on-going nationwide strike of
health workers. This is a major threat to Public
Health especially at a time that the dreaded
Ebola disease is currently rampaging in some
African Countries.
“The Federal Government must energise the
deadlocked negotiations between the JOHESU
and Federal Ministry of Labour and
Employment with genuine conciliators who
have national interest.
“Specifically, a befitting budget to offset the
already compromised three options presented
by JOHESU to the Federal Government on May
16, 2018 must be made available through
interventions facilitated by the Office of the
Secretary to the Government of the
Federation.
“We demand an immediate implementation of
the terms of settlement of the September 30,
2017 agreement.”
We’ll boycott further negotiations, if….
On the order by the National Industrial Court
directing members of the union to suspend
their on-going strike, and resume duties across
the nation within 24 hours, Comrade Josiah
said: “We have not been served any court
notice. But if it happens that the Ministries of
Health and Labour in any way sponsored the
ex-parte motion that brought about the court
order, we will boycott further negotiations.
“The two ministries lack the moral right to
take JOHESU to court for any reason, having
disobeyed no less than eight court orders in
favour of the union.” |
Health / Re: NMA Threatens To Embark On Strike If FG Yield To The Demands Of JOHESU by Thanks18(m): 8:16am On May 18, 2018 |
TempoJames: pls get your fact straight JOHESU national body in the press briefing yesterday has relaxed the strike in Lagos and Yobe states as appreciation to the state governments for meeting their demands. Your type was the reason while the great Ikemba once said: "Having a dialogue with my country men is like having a dialogue with the deaf; it requires a great deal of repetition, a great deal of shouting and a great deal of gesticulation. In spite of all these efforts, you still run the risk of being misunderstood". So disobeying court injunctions is now a heroic act abi. This questions that you are absolutely arrogant and uncivilized with your sense of judgement doctored, beclouded with petty sentiments and illiteracy. If the great POTUS will obey a high court injunction to drop his famous travel ban, it is a great lesson to be learnt that the hallmark of civilization is law and order and civility. Mr, your comments in this thread shows you are either deaf, daft or purely an illiterate. |
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