my2cents:

Seriously though, anything of value was said in the first few posts of page 1.

lol another illogical statement from "Mr. ad hominem". I think most people will agree that Ghengis' elaboration on the CMMI/Capability Maturity Model has "value", for those who were not aware of it beforehand

All your posts on the other hand, have had no value whatsoever.

Feel free to continue with your ad hominems. Alternatively, you could actually contribute something of value.

my2cents:

Uhmmm, with respect to these posts, I think you need to check the rock in your eye before checking the speck in mine
Rocking my boat? Nope. Getting my bunches in a wad? Definitely

And so he retreats to "ad hominem" attacks lol . Because he really doesn't have anything of value to contribute to this topic.

If the words "ad hominem" are "too big" for you, here's what they mean:

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man" consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I think the certification you may be referring to is the CMMI and yes, many organisations are starting to embrace it because they realise that their projects "keep failing" due to mis-application or ignorance of software engineering principles. The journey that the organisation embarks on (when they decide to pursue CMMI certification) enables them to institute software engineering principles properly into their "day-to-day" processes and procedures thereby preventing "project failures". Even if an organisation has only made it to level 3 or 2, the CMMI has been proven to improve the organisation's IT efficiency tremendously.

I never asked you to agree with me, I was POINTING OUT your logical fallacies and your pseudo-scientific opinions about software engineering.

You can be the bigger man if that's what rocks your boat. I am happy simply to have helped some people reading these pages see the workings of their "software world" more clearly.

For the record, I'm not trying to "win" anything as there is nothing here to win. I am simply trying to ensure that you don't mislead less knowledgable readers in this thread I started with the goal to educate them in the first place.

my2cents:

A software engineer, generally speaking, can not speak the language of business. For that, you need someone who can and that is where a BA comes in.

You have not understood what I'm saying. The software engineer who cannot understand the business simply doesn't understand "business analysis". It doesn't mean that "business/requirements analysis/engineering" is not part of Software Engineering. If you give up on pseudo-scientific "ideas" about what a Software Engineer is, you'll get my point. But I doubt that you will, since your objective isn't to learn anything new but to protect your ego.

my2cents:

At least not in the American context.

Software Engineering was pioneered by Americans and in fact, the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) is an American institution therefore this statement you made is a logical fallacy which renders your whole argument invalid.

Some information on Requirements Engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requirements_analysis

my2cents, business analysis (of a software system - which is what this thread is about), is a Software Engineering discipline. One of the most important ones in fact. It's generally known as Requirements Engineering. Why don't you google it and learn something new. It shouldn't hurt your ego.

The problem here is degree of understanding. By being dogmatic, you prevent yourself from acquiring the information that will help you improve your understanding .

Ghenghis:

Guys, for the sake of argument you've veered from the main point ,

Most of what you guys are calling "technical" are things a domain professional is expected to know e.g You'd need an accountant as the technical consultant for accounting software, a biologist in biometrics, an electronic engr in digital signal processing , all these are not necessarily software engineers.

You don't need to give the person pseudocode, what of sequence diagrams, entity diagrams, or state diagrams. The systems architect can pass all these on to a programmer to implement, also Business analysis is a SW engineering discipline.

only some time ago software development was considered an art,
anyways the discipline is evolving , and its now the application of of engineering methods to the process of developing software!

Ghenghis demonstrates a superior understanding of the software profession.

cdeveloper:

Hello all i have been a way for a while now , but i think a programmer is an artist who, uses his imagination, i writer who writes greate code, a philosopher who believe in the possibility of what the ordinary minds thinks is impossible and most of all a warm person who views life in its very basic nature and appreciates the way things fit together.

lol

But seriously though, you seem like a programmer who is gifted to someday become a software architect - judging by the way you think (THINKING in a unified and abstract way is the core talent of a software architect).

Solution Architect is my day job, I know when I see a potential neophyte

Generally speaking: In "Industry", there is no care for distinguishing between the software engineer that is a "programmer" or the "general" software engineer. Often you'll have someone with job title of "programmer" doing a lot more than programming or someone with a job title of "software engineer" who in fact, only does programming. The reason for this inconsistency is that most IT managers (and some technical staff too) in industry have a mediocre understanding of the unified field of Software Engineering and its practices that make their IT systems development and delivery possible. This does not change the fact that Software Engineering has a consistent structure in "Academia".

What needs to be understood here is this:
A programmer is "always" a software engineer whether he is properly educated and/or trained or not. A software engineer is "not always" a programmer. He/She can hold any role in the "Software Engineering" domain that He/She has been trained for.

^The insights to be gained from the above statement are:
[list]
[li]Always view yourself as a software engineer if you're doing any "technical/analytical" software work.[/li]
[li]If you intend on having a lasting career, you want to someday "move on up" from the programmer role. [/li]
[/list]

Peace & Love.

Anyway,

For those without dogmatic in-bred beliefs about programming and who would like to find resources on the software engineering discipline, here's a very useful link:

http://www.sei.cmu.edu/

enjoy.

^It's okay to stick up for your friend

Sorry if I came across harsh; it's just that those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between the two are often those who slow down progress in delivering quality software in the "real world".

The real world is "Industry", the ideal world is "Academia". Academia informs Industry and not vice versa, I expect anyone with a degree in Computer Science to know this. Therefore, when discussing programming and software engineering (especially on a forum where hundreds of our Nigerian people hoping to learn might be reading), it is important that we take a formal approach to things and make concepts as clear as possible.

Bossman says:
"I will say it again, Software Engineering and programming are exactly the same thing."

LOL This is typically what would be uttered by a "programmer" lacking in academic refinement. I think you should stick to programming as I'm sure you don't know the first thing about software engineering. A good software engineer cannot get by on rhetoric alone.

Ghenghis, I totally agree with you and your suggestions are most practical.

my2cents, I appreciate your opinion.

Your angle is that not everyone sees "programming" as a sub-section of "software engineering". This is a fact, therefore I agree.

Can we then have a "software engineering" forum under "Technology" then, for those more interested in Software Engineering than Programming?

I think this would solve our problem

I was only trying to help shed some light but it seems opinions, not facts rule these boards. Happy Programming!

A Software Engineer is a role that can involve any aspect of Software Engineering, including Programming.

I have taken a Software Engineer role in the past and I worked on requirements gathering, design as well as programming. Really, it's a tricky role to take on because then your boss can ask you to do any work under the "Software Engineering" umbrella.

However, if you are hired as a Java Developer - well, you just have to write Java Code (Programming) and maybe more "development" work such as configuration and deployment.

If people want to glorify themselves, that's their problem. I like to believe this forum is about serious business. I know many so-called Software Architects who are in fact, just Business Analysts. You're right there is a lot of confusion in the industry but this is due to the industry still being relatively new and charlatans take advantage of it.

My point is this: Software Engineering is the big picture. Programming is a (vital) piece of the puzzle.

Programmer is a role, Web Developer is a role.

Software Engineering is the encompassing discipline. It doesn't make any sense to say that "Programming" is not part of "Software Engineering". In fact, it is the core skill of a Software Engineer. Program = Software.

We all have opinions, I stick with the facts.

my2cents, I think an Integrated Circuit Bulder can work as an Electronic Engineer. He is simply the guy on the team that builds the designs of the more senior Electronic Engineers (who see the bigger picture), you can see him as a basic technician on the team.

Likewise, a career developer who has only mastered a programming language (but is not aware of the underlying principles which are independent of the current programming language) is very much a Software Engineer, but he is only a developer as far as the team is concerned. If his skills are no longer needed (e.g. Java or VB), he ceases to be useful.

I think it's very important for us Nigerians to start looking at the bigger picture. I have met excellent Nigerian "programmers" who don't know vital things like process improvement, security, software architecture or any formal techniques (e.g. software engineering maths, specification & design, concurrency etc) that are the foundation of programming itself. Many "developers" can cut any type of Java code, but they cease to be software engineers if they are not allowed to use this very popular (and brilliant, if I may add) language.

Well, you saying that is like saying "Integrated Circuit Building" is the same thing as "Electronic Engineering".

"Software engineering is the application of a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software. It encompasses techniques and procedures, often regulated by a software development process, with the purpose of improving the reliability and maintainability of software systems."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering

"Programming is when Computer programmers make programs. They usually use programming languages to make their programs. Sometimes they use special software which helps them to make programs, and sometimes they use simpler software like Notepad which only gives them a place to type. After they write programs, they use compilers to turn what they've typed, called the source code, into things that they can run, called executables."

source:http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming

I see you guys' point about them being the same thing, but there is a subtle difference. Software Engineering is about Software which is, at its most basic a "Computer Program". However, the "Engineering Discipline" of Software goes beyond programming. Think about it.

Peace.

"Programming" is a subsection of the larger Software Engineering discipline. In order to achieve true success in the IT industry, we have to start looking at the bigger picture. Learning the latest programming language du jour might get you a nice job, but it won't guarantee you longevity in the industry.

Perhaps it's time for Nairaland to have a "Software Engineering" section, to steer Nigerian computer technicians (those at home and abroad) in the right direction.

Peace.

Congrats! on passing the SCEA exams. However, you're not really a SCEA until you pass the essay exam (part III).

Siju

p.s. I am a Nigerian Sun Certified Enterprise Architect (since 2003) 

SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA

Whoever started this thread is an ignorant idiot

God save us from the tyranny of "the bible". It has never occured to us (Nigerian) Christians to find out where this English bible (that has so much control over our lives) REALLY came from. We just believe what we are told by pastors who make vague references to hebrew and aramaic sources,

And here we are on an Internet thread - grown up men & women (presumably, of sound mind) speaking as if there is a policeman hidden in their Bibles.

NIGERIANS, WAKE UP!!!!

We have slumbered too long,

I've never been too happy with Java I/O, but I don't have to use it much (except FileInputStream).

Is anybody here into J2EE? That's where the Java big guns play

What is the point in learning Java Swing? nobody uses it

sbucareer, why are you making these guys use Netbeans? Making them use Textpad is just plain evil.

Netbeans is a pile of poo (no disrespect to SUN Microsystems, but they are not very good at building commercial software). If your IDE is not IDEA (IntelliJ) or Eclipse, you're causing yourself unneccessary pain.

Also, for those of you intending on "making money" out of some programming career, standard Java (J2SE) will not do you much good. What you need to do is learn the industry tools and APIs.

For a site built with the full J2EE stack check out http://www.naijamovies.co.uk/site/naijamovies.jsp

Peace

When will people understand that church is just a business like any other business?

Nigerian movie comedies kick ass - Osuofia In London - A classic any day

If I had a say, I would put Hieroglyphs on the Naira. It is the only true current language of Africans (Nigerians included).

We Nigerians are lost beyond belief. We have come from a great race of Africans in antiquity to a bunch of "christians" and "muslims" fighting each other like the puppets Europeans (and Arabs) have turned us into. These foreing religions were actually adapted from our ancient ONE (for those in the KNOW). Now we're just a bunch of blind followers. I can't believe it, I truly can't believe it. Do we not know that we are all in the same boat?