@debosky

If you are posing the question about nomenclature (i.e. "whether it is called tithing or not is immaterial" to garyarnold I think that fairness requires that you do the same with wordtalk.

From what we gather wordtalk would say that a person who gives their tenth in money and in church is a tither. If nomenclature doesn't matter, and if you can so 'descend' on garyarnold, I think it is only fair to ask if wordtalk too would agree that a person who gives his tenth in a form other than money or outside church is also a tither.  If this so matters that the latter person cannot be called a tither, then I think it is unfair to descend on garyarnold about nomenclature.  

Enigma:

@debosky

If you are posing the question about nomenclature (i.e. "whether it is called tithing or not is immaterial" to garyarnold I think that fairness requires that you do the same with wordtalk.

It's not really a question - that is my opinion.

Garyarnold appears to be attempting to dissuade anyone from using the term tithing to describe their giving - a position I don't agree with.

I don't have any issues with people using or not using 'tithes/tithing', but I do take exception when an attempt is made to 'dictate' that people should nor should not use a particular term to describe their actions - I think that decision lies with the giver alone.

From what we gather wordtalk would say that a person who gives their tenth in money and in church is a tither. If nomenclature doesn't matter, and if you can so 'descend' on garyarnold, I think it is only fair to ask if wordtalk too would agree that a person who gives his tenth in a form other than money or outside church is also a tither.

That is a question wordtalk has chosen to answer with 'it is up to them', essentially choosing to pursue a non-committal stance. That is his/her prerogative. As far as I'm concerned, as long as WT hasn't said his/her way is the only acceptable form of tithing, I am satisfied.

 If this so matters that the latter person cannot be called a tither, then I think it is unfair to descend on garyarnold about nomenclature.  

WT has avoided any strictures around nomenclature, while garyarnold seeks to enforce strictures on what can/cannot be called tithes (beyond what the bible clearly lays out) and how that is taught. Surely you can see they are polar opposites when it comes to this issue of nomenclature?

The bible doesn't say you must refer to all types of tithing before you can teach about it - Paul didn't refer to all the examples when he drew parallels in the NT, yet garyarnold is demanding this level of detail above and beyond what was done in the bible.

If I see examples of WT trying to enforce personal opinion as the 'final word' on a matter, rest assured I will call him/her out on it.

debosky:

WT has avoided any strictures around nomenclature, while garyarnold seeks to enforce strictures on what can/cannot be called tithes and how that is taught. Surely you can see they are polar opposites when it comes to this issue of nomenclature?

If I see examples of WT trying to enforce personal opinion as the 'final word' on a matter, rest assured I will call him/her out on it.

Ah, you too have the wool pulled over your eyes my friend!

Read wordtalk's posts carefully --- any giving of a tenth which is not in money or to church --- wordtalk only ever calls giving. Only giving of a tenth of money and into church does wortalk ever describe as tithing.

Read carefully. That is why i cannot stand the double standard (not of yours) but of wordtalk's about garyarnold having issues with the word "tithing".

garyarnold:

Only IF it is labeled as an example and not written to infer that it is the only way.

For one, nobody has argued that it is the "only" way, so you can't take that up as an issue otherwise you're just chasing red herring all over again. An example is still an example, labelling it exactly as an 'E-X-A-M-P-L-E' in order to be qualified as an example is to stretch things way out of proportion.

I don't brag about my giving.

You actually do. I've seen you in other blogs boasting several times about how much you give. Remember the hub where you engaged someone by the username "Debradoo"? Although that wasn't me, this is what you said to him/her:

Debradoo - To answer your question, I have given to the church as God directs me. Sometimes that has amounted to far in excess of ten percent. My total giving to the church and to those who I know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income, and I am retired.

. . . and it goes on and on and on, describing how you purchased a 20-inch analog tv instead of buying a big-screen hdtv, etc., etc., etc.

On that same hubpage, you even said this:

I GIVE out of LOVE. I expect nothing in return. I give because it is in my heart to give. The Spirit puts in my heart where to give, and how much to give, and it's far, far, far, far, far more than a tenth of my income.

Tell me, if it were a tither that should brag in public like that, what would you qualify that as, if not the same bragging you're known for? These are not to show you up - there are far too many places you have made statements bragging about your giving! The point here is that you cannot claim that you don't brag about your giving - that is just plain false.

The problem is that anti-tithers are constantly being accused of being stingy. I try to make the point that I am not stingy and in fact give far more than most tithers, percentage wise.

You don't have to brag about anything. It is enough to know that you give - and for many of us we express our giving through tithes, offerings and other types of benevolence. We don't have to give details of how much we had to save in order to buy 20-inch tv instead of HDTV and whatnots.

And second, you cannot wave the victim's card as reason for your bragging - we know the kinds of things you have accused tithers of! So, making excuses for your bragging does not exempt you from the allegations you express on others.

There is no other reason for using "voluntary tithing" other than to let others know what you are doing. You must want others to know you are giving a tenth or you wouldn't need to use the word tithe. You don't need to advertise the percentage that you give. Giving is between you and God.

You don't need to advertize what type of tv you had to buy so that you can give "far, far, far, far, far more than a tenth of [your] income" - whatever tv or HDTV you purchased or did not purcahse was between you and God. Let others live rather than trying to justify yourself in the things you condemn in other believers.

Enigma:

Ah, you too have the wool pulled over your eyes my friend!

Read wordtalk's posts carefully --- any giving of a tenth which is not in money or to church --- wordtalk only ever calls giving. Only giving of a tenth of money and into church does wortalk ever describe as tithing.

I have read, and what I have seen so far is a reluctance to 'endorse' other forms of tithing and focus only on what he/she does in the way of tithing in church. Rather WT leaves it 'up to them' and has not condemned any other form of tithing (as far as I can see). I can find no fault with such an approach.

While you may regard it as duplicitous not to explicitly endorse tithing not rendered to the church, I am not really bothered.

Read carefully. That is why i cannot stand the double standard (not of yours) but of wordtalk's about garyarnold having issues with the word "tithing".

If there is indeed a double standard, I would agree with you - however, a non-committal response on other forms of tithing doesn't equate to an outright denial in my view.

Let us do a small test:

The following two questions were asked of wordtalk (page 3) --- perhaps if you put them to wordtalk you will get an answer; if you don't get an answer then my charge of double standard over garyarnold's concern about "tithing" stands.

Let me try again: there is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100 and gives it to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Let me try once more!

There is this fellow Mr Christian who earns 1000 per month. Every month he takes aside 100, he buys food stuff, clothing, hygiene products etc, and gives these things (not money) to widows, orphanages and other charities. He may then sometimes give 50 in church in a month or sometimes less to the church.

Is Mr Christian a "tither"?

Edited:

Enigma:

Only giving of a tenth of money and into church does wortalk ever describe as tithing.

That is not true, since I did not assert what you're are concluding.

1. I think debosky sees through me as clear as water! perhaps he is the foremost person in this thread to essentially capture my posture and reasoning in these matters - especially when he said:

WT has avoided any strictures around nomenclature, while garyarnold seeks to enforce strictures on what can/cannot be called tithes (beyond what the bible clearly lays out) and how that is taught. Surely you can see they are polar opposites when it comes to this issue of nomenclature?

2. very true - I have hitherto avoided any strictures. Nonetheless, in expressing my own opinion without standing as headmaster for any and/or all voluntary tithers, I nowhere made a case for "ONLY" money or "ONLY" in Church. BEFORE this thread, I have made the point that there are various avenues through which people may express their giving without limiting such expressions to any particularly predefined "standards".

3. If anything, at the very least, I think it is clear that I allow for others to hold their views as fully as I hold mine. This I expressed in various ways, such as saying that people should be free to do as they wish. I did not want to define certain "standards" for anyone for the very simple reason that it would contradict my position on the liberty of all Christians to do as they are led of God to do - which would include the choice of NOT EVEN GIVING ANYTHING if that is how they feel!

Beyond that, I do not understand how else I can help anyone understand my position. My disinclination to make people conform to certain preconceived "definitions" does not mean that I was making a case for "ONLY" this and that! I did not limit giving to "ONLY" money - that is why I often speak instead of RESOURCES!

If you would like to see indeed that I do not limit my understanding of giving to "ONLY" money, perhaps this article I wrote sometime in March this year would help you appreciate my posture a little better -

[size=14pt]Think Resources, Not Just Money[/size]

There are many ways we could make a difference in the lives of people around us. At some point money may be involved – we spend from ourselves and make commitments of financial support for causes that reach out to those we may not be directly able to do so.

[size=14pt]However, I wrote in a previous post to suggest that it’s not all about money, so we could think a little more instead about resources. I’m persuaded that there are other ways to share resources other than cash or bank notes; so here I want to make some suggested examples.[/size]
Read more:

http://givingtithes.com/think-resources-not-just-money/

I NOWHERE made a case for "ONLY" this and/or that. The way I express my opinions may be different from what exactly you wanted to see; and if that does not appear, it would be unfair to draw unjustified conclusions based on what you hoped I should say that you may not have read. I hope this helps to clear the air a little more.

I am a teacher of sacrificial giving.  There is no better way to teach than to teach by EXAMPLE, the way Jesus did it.  I do not brag about my giving, but use myself as an example.

If someone gives 10% of their income, some say they are a tither.

If someone gives 5% of their income, there is no special title, like tither, to give them.

If someone gives 25% of their income, there is no special title, like tither, to give them.

"Tithers" get a special title assigned to them which makes them feel special.

Why is it that ONLY those who give a tenth are "recognized" by a special title?  It's absolutely childish and silly.

@ debosky

Let me put in further graphic terms what I am saying.

If wordtalk cannot accept that a person who gives a tenth but either not in money or not in church is "tithing", then

why should garyarnold accept that a person who gives a tenth but not in accordance with Abram (Genesis 14) and not in accordance with Deuteronomy etc is "tithing"?

See?

garyarnold:

I am a teacher of sacrificial giving. There is no better way to teach than to teach by EXAMPLE, the way Jesus did it. I do not brag about my giving, but use myself as an example.

We don't want to go through this for many more pages. You brag about your giving and you CANNOT deny the fact! Even where you desire to follow the example of Jesus, you will find that while giving is discreet, He certainly decried the attitudes of people blowing their trumpets about how they did this and did that in order to compare their giving to other people's giving! To brag about your giving"far, far, far, far, far more than" whatever is bragging in absolute terms - and that in no way is an example. If you want to play on words and claim that you use yourself as an example, then know that is a VERY BAD example, End of!

@ debosky,

Wordtalk is pulling the wool over your eyes again.

Wordtalk says I can call tithing if I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army.  But Wordtalk won't call that tithing.  Notice how he words things so carefully as to NEVER say that he would call other than giving a tenth of income in the church "tithing."

@wordtalk

All these long posts are just obfuscation as you well know. What is more I notice again you say people can express their "giving" in different ways --- that is not the issue!

The issue is how people can do their "voluntary" tithing"

As I said, if you do not accept giving in the form of 10% of goods or of money outside church as "tithing", then you are engaged in double-standards if you call up garyarnold when he says people not complying with Genesis, Deuteronomy etc are not really "tithing"!

Simples.  

You brag about your giving and you CANNOT deny the fact!

Since I don't brag about my giving, I must say that you are a liar.

I have never said how much my income is, or what dollar amount I give.  I am not the type of person to brag about my giving.

garyarnold:

@ debosky,

Wordtalk is pulling the wool over your eyes again.

Wordtalk says I can call tithing if I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army.  But Wordtalk won't call that tithing.  Notice how he words things so carefully as to NEVER say that he would call other than giving a tenth of income in the church "tithing."

This again is chasing wind. If you have found a single line where I asserted what you are claiming, please quote me directly and let's discuss it. If you do not find me saying what you're forcing into my position, then you have nothing to tender.

garyarnold:

@ debosky,

Wordtalk is pulling the wool over your eyes again.

Wordtalk says I can call tithing if I give a tenth of my clothes to the Salvation Army.  But Wordtalk won't call that tithing.  Notice how he words things so carefully as to NEVER say that he would call other than giving a tenth of income in the church "tithing."

This is what many people are missing but that is exactly one of the places where the sleight of hand lies!

garyarnold:

You brag about your giving and you CANNOT deny the fact!

Since I don't brag about my giving, I must say that you are a liar.

If I did not post where you have bragged about your giving and only made up the claims, then your accusation would stand. This is where you actually made those braggado claims - http://meetbrandon.hubpages.com/hub/Tithing-Scriptures--What-the-Bible-Says-About-Tithing  

I have never said how much my income is, or what dollar amount I give.  I am not the type of person to brag about my giving.

You actually did, garyarnold - there's no need to pretend this falsehood. You don't need to tell anyone the exact figure of your income, but you made reference to how much from your income you give in saying that "My total giving to the church and to those who I know are in need, probably exceeds 25 or 30 percent of my income, and I am retired."

If you also claim that you never said what dollar amount you give, then that also is falsehood. On that same hubpage you clearly quoted the dollar amount you gave at one time:

I had almost $1,000 saved up when the church I was attending (not even a member of that church) made an appeal to help pay off their building. God directed me to give the money to the church, and I did so cheerfully.

I'm not trying to show you up; but when you make deliberately false statements, I won't put up with that. Sorry.

Enigma:

@wordtalk

All these long posts are just obfuscation as you well know. What is more I notice again you say people can express their "giving" in different ways --- that is not the issue!

That IS the issue - for ME. And the reason is because the way you read things is different from the way I read them. You have certain "standards", and I am not one who makes strictures for anyone no matter how they read things for themselves. Yes, I have been using the word "giving" to express my understanding - and here is why:

For the purpose of this blog, a simple user-friendly understanding of ‘giving’ would be ‘whatever we bestow or render from what we have in order to serve a purpose‘. This may not be an all-embracing definition, yet it’s a functional one that conveys its general meaning in varied aspects of its use in my articles. That is not to deny that there certainly are other shades of meaning to it – and such will be highlighted when and where necessary.

To understand giving as expressed above helps to tidy things up and minimize misconceptions. This implies that such concepts as alms, contributions, donations, offerings, gifts, and tithes are various ways of expressing the same thing: giving. This is why the argument that ‘tithing is not giving’ is quite an uninformed and unnecessary one to make.

http://givingtithes.com/giving-whats-in-a-name/

^^^ Then the way you read is different from the way garyarnold reads. So you must stop the double standard of accusing him for saying that what most people do is not "tithing"!

Enigma:

^^^ Then the way you read is different from the way garyarnold reads. So you must stop the double standard of accusing him for saying that what most people do is not "tithing"!

Lol, Enigma. You're trying too hard to put words into my mouth. Please quote me and let's discuss. Just quote me on what you said I have said. Thank you.

^^^ No need to quote you --- all you need to do is answer the two questions I repeated for debosky's sake on this thread page.

I repeat if you cannot answer them or if the answer is that the person is not a tither then you are engaged in double standards when you accuse garyarnold for saying what most people do is not "tithing".

Wordtalk still accusing me of telling how much I give.  Wordtalk has NO IDEA what my income is.

Wordtalk does a lot of talking but says very little.  Wordtalk leaves it up to each individual to decide what tithing means to them.  Therefore, the word tithing can mean so many different things that the word becomes worthless.

garyarnold:

Wordtalk still accusing me of telling how much I give. Wordtalk has NO IDEA what my income is.

I am not interested in what your income is - I have no idea and don't even want to know! So keep it! The one thing you have done is pretend you don't brag and had the nerve to accuse others of bragging about their giving. You may play fast and lose with untruth here probably because you hope no one else knows you outsside of this forum.

When you do something, it is permissible to accept you have forgotten and nobody would hang that over your neck. But after being shown clearly the facts of your bragging and then you try to deny it, that passes from forgetfulness into deliberate deception.

Wordtalk leaves it up to each individual to decide what tithing means to them.

I am very guilty of that charge - and I will continue to be held guilty of it. I have made my case crystal clear as to WHY I will not harrague anybody concerning what it means for them. What I will not stand for is assume the authority or protocol to force my own or your own definition(s) into someone else's choice of pleasing God - BECAUSE He did not set you or anyone else as His personal secretary.

If you want to hunt people around the globe in order to overwhelm them with your own pre-paid "standards", you are very free to do so. What you cannot do is assume that only your own narrow views must be the only one that everyone else should/must adhere to.

Therefore, the word tithing can mean so many different things that the word becomes worthless.

If it worthless for YOU, it certainly is not for others. You do not "tithe" (however you have chosen to pre-define it for yourself), so stay with your "betwen 25 or 30 percent" and let the world move on!

Enigma:

^^^ No need to quote you --- all you need to do is answer the two questions I repeated for debosky's sake on this thread page.

I repeat if you cannot answer them or if the answer is that the person is not a tither then you are engaged in double standards when you accuse garyarnold for saying what most people do is not "tithing".

Well ??

garyarnold:

Why is it that ONLY those who give a tenth are "recognized" by a special title?  It's absolutely childish and silly.

Why are you bothered by such  childish behaviour? Why so hung up about it? To answer your question, you'd have to ask why tithing was a distinct  way of giving in the OT - both voluntary and otherwise.

Enigma:

@ debosky

Let me put in further graphic terms what I am saying.

If wordtalk cannot accept that a person who gives a tenth but either not in money or not in church is "tithing", then

why should garyarnold accept that a person who gives a tenth but not in accordance with Abram (Genesis 14) and not in accordance with Deuteronomy etc is "tithing"?

See?

if they disagree and hold different opinions that is one thing, but if one person is trying to dictate what is 'acceptable' to everyone else, beyond the stipulations in scripture, then that is reaching too far in my view.

Besides, WT claims he/she accepts what others do as being up to them. Garyarnold has made no such acceptance but seeks to almost 'force' everyone to accept his own view.

Enigma:

Well ??

^^ Well what? You have made a statement which I don't find in my comments, so I cannot answer for what I did not say. If you feel that I said what you alleged, please quote me.  

@ debosky

They are both in exactly the same position --- each says this is what they believe amounts to tithing.

As far as I'm concerned this is the crunch time, this is the time for wordtalk to put up or shut up.

If s/he cannot answer the question then there is no question that s/he is duplicitous - especially when having a go at garyarnold for not accepting that what most people do is "tithing".

wordtalk:

^^ Well what? You have made a statement which I don't find in my comments, so I cannot answer for what I did not say. If you feel that I said what you alleged, please quote me.  

Now I say directly that you are indeed duplicitous. Also, I repeat and stand by my sleight of hand charge. I also repeat that some of us always saw through the chicanery.

Enigma:

If s/he cannot answer the question then there is no question that s/he is duplicitous - especially when having a go at garyarnold for not accepting that what most people do is "tithing".

Before you go off happily with that accusation, I'm still waiting for you to quote me on this -

Enigma:

I repeat if you cannot answer them or if the answer is that the person is not a tither then you are engaged in double standards when you accuse garyarnold for saying what most people do is not "tithing".

I have offered you the opportunity to please quote me and let's discuss your misgivings. Fair enough?  

Enigma:

Now I say directly that you are indeed duplicitous. Also, I repeat and stand by my sleight of hand charge. I also repeat that some of us always saw through the chicanery.

This is not the first time I made a simple request that you evaded, so it's of no consequence at all to me that you'd make such accusations. Quote me on what you said I did say, and let us discuss it - is that too hard?

Enigma:

@ debosky

They are both in exactly the same position --- each says this is what they believe amounts to tithing.

As far as I'm concerned this is the crunch time, this is the time for wordtalk to put up or shut up.

If s/he cannot answer the question then there is no question that s/he is duplicitous - especially when having a go at garyarnold for not accepting that what most people do is "tithing".

But s/he has not denied that people are free to determine what they call their giving has s/he?

That is what I believe to be the crux - as long as people are free to define it the way they choose, it is fine. Garyarnold however wants a strict definition (with various examples) adhered to - this is not his call to make, but for every individual to decide.

Out of stubbornness or plain refusal to give you the satisfaction of a direct answer or some other motivation, s/he refuses to answer the direct question but keeps it non-committal.

Garyarnold is cleary NOT non-committal and intends to force through his views on tithe (i.e anyone teaching on tithing must use 3 or more examples) on anyone that speaks on the subject.

Surely you can't regard both views are identical?

I'll admit I do not know the motivation for the refusal to answer your question point-blank, but in light of his/her admission that individuals are free to make up their own minds, that is the most important aspect - allowing the individual to decide.

^^^ garyarnold also says you can call anything tithing --- why is he challenged on that? With invectives and misrepresentations about trash cans etc?

Enigma:

^^^ garyarnold also says you can call anything tithing --- why is he challenged on that? With invectives and misrepresentations about trash cans etc?

If garyarnold defines HIS OWN tithing as trash from trash can, I fully accept that as his own definition for HIMSELF. What I cannot accept is to make that the definition that every other or any other Christian should follow.


I did not deny garyarnold his right to hold that "definition" for himself - see for yourself:

garyarnold:

1 - give a tenth (tithe) of the trash from the trash can to the church.  Since everything belongs to God, if I give a tenth, I am tithing.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.256.html#msg8870247

my reply:

wordtalk:

1. - You're free to give trash to the church and claim it belongs to God - that's you, not me.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.256.html#msg8870382

WHERE did I deny garyarnold his right to his own "definition" of tithes for himself?