wordtalk:

Did you read the end of Matthew 23:23? If Jesus was condemning people for receiving tithes, how do you explain the fact that they should continue to receive tithes in the same way as they observe the weightier matters of the[size=15pt] Law? [/size]

wordtalk:

Sorry, I don't see the author of Hebrews 7 leaving it out, and that's why I discuss it as well. For too long, many anti-tithers have concluded wrong things about Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek that is why they always in a hurry to leave it out, or end up name-calling others out of desperation - which is why I'm not surprised at this part of your quote:

Febup:

Are we still under the Mosaic Law? And who were the people the mosaic law was meant for?

How many times have you been to war with your enemies and you've brought back spoils of war to give your pastor as tithes? This was the only type of tithe that the Bible tells us Abram gave so it is pointless for you to bring Abram’s tithe into this. Jesus did not tell us to go to war with our enemies or is that what your Bible tells you?

You are just trying to run away from the truth.

wordtalk:

Have you ever heard of the word "principle"? Although Christians are not under the Law, can you deny that the New Testament apostles used the Law to teach Christian doctrines which Christians cannot reject today? Look again at the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23 - are they part of your Christian life or not?

Did Abraham's tithes have anything to do with God or not? It is indeed pointless to make you see anything in "principle" where you have already made up your mind to read only the 'letter' in a legalistic manner.

Nope, I'm only trying to keep away from your untruth and name-calling.

debosky:

The 'weightier matters of the law' did not refer to tithing.

Under the law, the tithe was primarily a tithe of produce. Feel free to tithe your produce and comply with all the other laws as well while you are at it.

Besides, this commentary was in relation to a legalistic adherence to giving tithes while missing out on the more important aspects.

The principle that exists is one of giving, not of how much is given - that is what many of you tithe advocates fail to recognise.

wordtalk:

Have you ever heard of the word "principle"? Although Christians are not under the Law, can you deny that the New Testament apostles used the Law to teach Christian doctrines which Christians cannot reject today? Look again at the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23 - are they part of your Christian life or not?

wordtalk:

Did Abraham's tithes have anything to do with God or not? It is indeed pointless to make you see anything in "principle" where you have already made up your mind to read only the 'letter' in a legalistic manner.

wordtalk:

Never said they did. point was simple: for those who throw out the Law as having absolutely no part in their Christian lives, the question is: would they also throw out what Jesus termed the weightier matters of the Law in that verse? To cast out the Law and yet draw from what is cast away is dubious and inconsistent.

Not every case of Biblical tithes were under the Law. One who believes is free to give a tithe of what they choose if they so wish. To strain far too much on the letter of the Law tends only to legalism.

The "principle" of what? If you don't know what you doing, how do you find a "principle" for it?

Besides, Biblical giving in whatever form does not ignore the question of "how much", which is what anti-tithers often fail to check out.

Febup:

Why is this principle of yours to do with stealing a tenth of worshipper’s income?

wordtalk:

If I have stolen from you, your comments would be justified.

debosky:

This would work if the weightier matters as you call them were limited to the law, Jesus taught about them many times in other instances, so did the apostles thereafter.

However, the teaching on tithe is distinctly missing from the apostles' teaching - something often downplayed by 'tithe advocates'.

In actual fact, one could argue that the teaching of Jesus in the oft quoted Matthew passage was directed at a law oriented audience to point out the foolishness of the Pharisees.

I never argued they were  - the other often quoted examples of Abraham and Isaac were one offs and voluntary in nature, not the regular,  mandatory monthly giving that is interpreted as tithing these days. In essence there is little or no semblance between the current tithing practice and those non-law tithing examples.

The principle of giving - the principle that all belongs to God, nothing more.

Whilst not ignored, it definitely does not impose a given percentage - rather, it is left for the giver to 'decide in his/her heart'. This is at polar opposites with those who believe a specific percentage as tithe is mandatory and separate from all other giving, and those who do not do so are 'robbing God'

Febup:

I'm not surprised buy you comment it is you who is a big fool. Anyway I have just been wasting words that are holy and my precious time with a dog and a pig like you that is using the Good New of the New Testament to steal from the people it is meant to set free from bondage

wordtalk:

Whenever you start off a dialogue

garyarnold:

Using Wordtalk's logic, I can say I am tithing if I:

1 - give a tenth (tithe) of the trash from the trash can to the church. Since everything belongs to God, if I give a tenth, I am tithing.

2 - give a tenth (tithe) of the change I have in my pocket. That's a tenth; therefore, it's a tithe; therefore, I am tithing.

3 - take a tenth of anything I have to the church. That would be tithing.

Therefore, I could honestly say I am a tither. I could honestly say I tithed to the church.

After all, the principle is to give a tenth. The principle can't be to give a tenth of "your income" because income was not given as a tithe in the Bible. Just a tenth of anything. We don't want to be legalistic here, so a tithe can be a tenth of ANYTHING.

I see. NOW I see how easy it will be for me to tithe next time I go to church! Can hardly wait to tell the pastor I am a tither!

garyarnold:

Using Wordtalk's logic, I can say I am tithing if I:

1 - give a tenth (tithe) of the trash from the trash can to the church.  Since everything belongs to God, if I give a tenth, I am tithing.

2 - give a tenth (tithe) of the change I have in my pocket.  That's a tenth; therefore, it's a tithe; therefore, I am tithing.

3 - take a tenth of anything I have to the church.  That would be tithing.

Therefore, I could honestly say I am a tither.  I could honestly say I tithed to the church.

We don't want to be legalistic here, so a tithe can be a tenth of ANYTHING.

I see.  NOW I see how easy it will be for me to tithe next time I go to church!  Can hardly wait to tell the pastor I am a tither!

garyarnold:

Okay, all non-tithers.  Let's begin tithing by giving a tenth of whatever we choose.  Doesn't have to be our income.  Can be just anything.  And then tell all those who claim to be tithing that you, too, are a tither.

garyarnold:

1 - give a tenth (tithe) of the trash from the trash can to the church. Since everything belongs to God, if I give a tenth, I am tithing.

garyarnold:

wordtalk, I have given you the definition of "The Lord's tithe" many times.  God told us what His tithe consists of.

God defined HIS tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33.  Take it or leave it.  Doesn't matter to me.

If you want to play with God's Word, that is on you, not me.  The tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 is the ONLY tithe that God claimed to be His.  He didn't claim either tithe in Deut to be His.  ONLY the one in Leviticus 27:30-33.  THAT is the ONLY ONE that is Holy to the Lord.

If you want to give a tenth of your income to the church, fine.  If you want to call it a tithe, I can't stop you.  In my opinion you are insulting God by doing so.  That is between you and God.

Since it is YOU that wants to stick with the original definition of tithe, meaning a tenth, then I can use the term, as you do, anytime I give a tenth of anything.

garyarnold:

The word "tithe" means a tenth. Correct.

garyarnold:

wordtalk,

You take what I say out of context just as you do with God's Word.

Did I say the tithes in Deut were not God's?  I said God only CLAIMED the tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 to be His.  He distinguished that tithe from the others.

I have made my points.  You want to use the definition of a word and ignore it's Biblical application.

That how we get false teachers that teach firstfruits offerings applies to your income.  Firstfruits offerings in the Bible ALWAYS applies to the first of the crops and NEVER on income.  It's taking a definition and ignoring the application.

I can play this game too, as I am now.  I can tithe anything I want and you should agree that I can call it tithing.  If you disagree, then it is YOU who is defining what a tithe is.

garyarnold:

Everyone on this blog can see the type of person you are.  You are making a fool out of yourself.

I have to keep going over the same thing.

Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:  The First Tithe - a tenth of crops and animals and commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.  This is the ONLY tithe that God CLAIMED to be HIS, and HE GAVE this tithe to the Levites.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27:  The Second Tithe aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.  God did NOT give this tithe to anyone.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29:  The Third Tithe aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.  God did not give this tithe to anyone, but He did direct who to invite.

The simple word "tithe" means a tenth.  I have never said it didn't.  I have said the Lord's tithe goes beyond just a "tenth" of anything.

Enigma:

Where in the Bible is a "tithe" of money or salary required or practised?

wordtalk:

Please tell me: what did Abraham's tithes consist of?

Enigma:

^^^^ Both garyarnold and myself agree with you that "tithe" means "tenth" ---- there is no debate there so please stop doing this obfuscation!

Enigma:

OK, I will indulge you: Abraham gave a tithe (or tenth) of the spoils of war.

So please deal with the questions/issues I raised.

wordtalk:

^^ The reason I ask these questions is simple: the default answer often given by those vehemently opposed to tithing is that all mention of tithes in the Bible are ONLY farm produce - nothing other than that.

If that were the case, I wonder what these folks make of "spoils of war" - were they also "farm produce"?

Enigma:

If you cannot deal with the questions/issues I raised please hands up, man up and admit it. As it is, you have no right or privilege now to expect any more answers from me. I asked you questions, you didn't answer; you asked me a question, I answered. You continue to refuse to deal with my queries, yet you want me to answer your self-defeating question of what was in the spoils of war. OK, included were slaves --- did he "tithe" slaves too?