₦airaland Forum

would the instant healing of an amputees under supervision put an end to this age-long debate ?

Captain4Jehovah:
God's word must be handled with delicacy! Genesis 1:3 it's a cap of Genesis 2:7 in conformity with your argument about who God is and his word. It depicts a finished work of God even IF HE DOESN'T SPEAK HIS WORD, HIS SUPREMACY AND WHO HE IS IS ENOUGH for HIS WILL AND PURPOSE TO BE DONE. Consider the ark of Covenant of God in Dogan's house. While Genesis 2:7 talks about a glimpse of the creation process. Consider the making of a vehicle!
Again, Genesis 1 as a whole depicts HOW POWERFUL GOD IS IN COMMANDING THINGS NOT SEEN INTO EXISTENCE. The Bible itself in Genesis 1 informs us of Creation of Adam from WHAT IS AVAILABLE (This is wisdom!) and Eve. What's more? You should understand that MAN IS NOT A FULLY COMPOSED SPIRIT BEING BUT RATHER A SPIRIT BEING IN A MORTAL HOUSE. He is an husbandman, a creator and A PORTAL! He decides what He wants to make and how he wants it be made. If we SEE HIM THUS, it is needless to parade God as inconsistent being in dealing with creation afterall He makes us self creators ourselves!


God created both good and evil even before man's existence. Genesis 2:9 informs us about this. Why would the all knowing and loving God create such good and evil even before man came into existence? Do understand that evil had been present on earth before man's creation going by Genesis 1:1 and John 8:44! And who is that? Satan! He was defeated and thrown down to earth. Evil was not created by Him in heaven, His abode. Satan created one from HIS SELF WILL. Do understand that his defeat was before the creation of heaven, sky, firmament and earth!
Again, I was made to understand that MAN IS A PROJECT OF GOD JUST LIKE JESUS WAS WHEN IN HUMAN flesh. This means THERE IS A PURPOSE FOR EACH CREATURE EXISTENCE ON EARTH JUST LIKE EVERY HERB AND ANIMAL ON EARTH! Jesus was tempted by Satan himself as he did to Eve and Adam was romanced by his wife. Had he failed, it would have been the end of God's eternal plan. This is one reality about WHO GOD IS.
So, Isaiah 45:7 does not inform us about present creation of good and evil as at the time of the prophecy(prophecy speaks about the past, present and the future), it refers to Genesis 2:9.
In the same vein since evil is ever present before any of us were born, it does not MAKE sense to see God inconsistent in His words and evil as well. Since evil is ever present with us, we should not see Him as a wicked being like Satan. If He shows Himself as wicked, it means we ourselves have been wicked as rotten fruits which can't be eaten.

Yes that would be the best path to follow if you are reading the Bible as a spiritual text but I am writing from a hermeneutic point of view which takes a more biblical scholarship path to understanding.
appreciate your contribution to the overall discussion
shalom

Lucifyre:
What you've stated here is nothing but absolute fact and aptly put. When you look at the context of the creation of the texts - from writing to editing to redaction to copying - and the historical & cultural context as well as against the backdrop of the region of the ancient near east, there's no how one wouldn't come to that conclusion. Different authors covering different time periods, writing for different audiences trying to pass their own agendas and for distinct purposes.

This is not even considering the evolution of their beliefs from polytheistic to henotheistic to finally monotheistic. Also the coalescing or conflation of YHWH with Baal and the chief god of the cannanite patheon El. It results in different perspectives that are not univocal and can only be univocal by outright mental gymnastics and renegotiation of the texts and that's undeniable hard fact. Suddenly storm/warrior god YHWH, suddenly turns around to say he loves everyone after several genocides and becomes a god of love yet he doesn't change?! Its nothing short of mental gymnastics.

Even the creation story in Genesis depicts 2 different gods as its 2 different writers with different perspectives, which is why you find the details and order of creation in the first(Gen 1:1 - 2:3a) differs from thr creation story from 2:3b before they were conflated and passed as a singular story ergo lots of contradictions. The second story even gives god anthropomorphic features as i think you pointed out in another comment. The whole bible, same story plays out.

i'm writing on the evolution and influence of the Babylonian Exile and its impact on Jewish religious precepts, hopefully it'll be ready by sunday

lol

safe trip

Kobojunkie:
Una too dey like add una own delusions between the lines of what is plainly stated in that book... Religion na serious mindfuckery! 🙄🙄🙄🙄

If you have ever read that book without your religious goggles on, you would have learned this much which is that all good and evil orchestrated for or against the people of Israel was as designed by the God of Israel Himself. Blessings and curses come from Him upon them. When God of Israel said in His Law, for instance, that all false prophets would serve nothing but lies using His name and commanded that they all be stoned to death for such, it was by his design. He explained who the false prophets would be— obviously, they would tell only lies using His name.

Take time to process the bit above, then go back through and re-read that entire passage to see how your conclusions do not change anything of the facts of the God of Israel in this but merely reveal a lack of understanding of what is plainly written in the texts instead.

from the text it was God sanctioning the prophets to lie in order for his will to be fulfilled;
verse 21b ’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’

Kobojunkie:
Again, as I said the chapter states that the false Prophets of the then nation of Israel lied to the King of Israel, Ahab, but somehow you twisted that to say instead that the God of Israel -- YHWH -- lied to Ahab?

Why do you pin the fault of your particular confusion on the person of the God of Israel?

because the lie was told in the name of God and was sanction by God and it was God's will

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks!

So what reservations do you have against the Bible?

I'm a biblical scholar
it is my bread and butter that butters my bread

Kobojunkie:
The chapter instead states that the False Prophets of the then nation of Israel lied to the King of Israel, Ahab, but somehow you twisted that to say instead that the God of Israel -- YHWH -- lied to Ahab?

2 Chronicles 18 from verse 19 (New king james)
19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’
21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’
22 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

MaxInDHouse:
Back in Islam i was taught to believe that God can't be pleased no matter what we do even if we obey all His commandments that's why Muhammed couldn't guarantee the salvation of Muslims hence he told them that Allah can do whatever pleases him leaving faithful, sincere and honest hearted Muslims at a cross road but from the day i read Jesus' last words to his disciples i began seeking more information about this Jesus of Nazareth.
Please read what he said below and try to imagine the confidence this first century young Jew had:

“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” Matthew 28:18-20

This statement from Jesus changed all my thinking about God because Jesus isn't even talking about the salvation of his disciples here rather he is assuming them that the authority in heavens now belongs to him!

Wow! How can someone say that?

Muhammed can't even speak confidently about his own safety!

So i decided to look into Christianity the religion most abusively spoken about by my folks but instead of asking the so called Christians i still went to an Islamic cleric to show him what Jesus said, that's when he quoted the same Bible verse you mentioned up there: Isaiah 45:7

 I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

From his response Muhammed couldn't assure anyone because of what Isaiah said here.

This is why i started asking questions to know what God meant in that verse but even the so called Christians themselves couldn't give me a satisfying answer as to why God could utter such statement if truly He is pure inside out just as Abraham said at Genesis 18:25

But when i met this group called JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES paying visits to people's homes uninvited they gave me a satisfying answer that i will like to share with you.

Note that God sent Isaiah to deliver some messages to the Israelites a stubborn and stiff-necked people meaning Isaiah could start entertaining fear of what this people can do to him.

So God's utterances found at Isaiah 45:7 means:

No matter how dearly anything could be God created it and He has the power to render it harmless anytime He wish. Take for example "FIRE" scientists discovered that it's just the reaction of mixture of gasses but to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon nothing could stop this gasses from consuming living creatures like Shadrak, Meshak and Abednego. But what will the Creator of the gasses do to prove that He created this deadly gasses? Well He commanded the gasses to take a different reaction when His own servants were thrown into the fire so that they came out as if from a room with cool air-conditioner whereas the servants of Nebuchadnezzar perished due its smoke alone!

Another case is that of Daniel who was thrown into the lion's den the predators were playing with him like tamed pets but when those who schemed all these were thrown into the same den they were eaten by the same lions!

So God isn't saying He planned evil things at will as some have misunderstood that verse rather He is assuring His servants that nothing is beyond His control because He created it all both the so called deadly things and harmless ones.

Please feel free to ask any questions that comes to your mind.

wow i'm so happy for your testimony

Dtruthspeaker:
Clearly, you have not heard of True Dichotomy.

Secondly, you that are now changing your post for the issue was God commanded things into existence, and this world was created and you wanted to understand what you termed "contradiction" of God on good and evil based on Isaiah45:7

Now you shifted post after i have explained those 3 issues to

Now you have changed post to "we See that God creates with his hands by using pre-existing materials" which Genesis even shows that the materials were first created before they later used them to creatte other things.

And while you have changed post, you now added God lying to it. This is very not reasonable.

Obviously, you are looking for an eternal argument ready to move from one issue to another, whereas your thread was very specific on what it wanted cleared..

So if you are truly interested in havinga these other issues. cleared, open separate threads on them let everyone see clearly what is being addressed instead of it to look like a mad man's soup of concortions.

you clearly misunderstand the whole point here. We are having a discussing, not an argument.
First of all the whole premise of this discussion is "The Bible does not present a singular depiction of God. It presents numerous different and frequently contradictory depiction of God" and i am not shifting any post but merely pointing out various instances where God is depicted at the both opposite ends of the spectrum. with each example we see God at odds with his earlier depictions;
example 1: God creates by the command of his word(Gen 1) juxtapose to Him creating with his hands from pre-existing material(Gen 2).
example2: God is all good and nothing evil can come out of him juxtapose to God being the origin of good and evil.(Isaiah 45:7)
example3: God cant lie (Hebrew 6:18)juxtapose to God lying and deceiving Ahab(2 chor. 18:22)
the point again if i must emphasize is that GOD IS DEPICTED AS ONE THING OR CHARACTER AND LATER DEPICTED AS THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF SAID CHARACTER.
Now in each example there is a context to why God is depicted that way: Now the context of God lying to Ahab;
Ahab was very much, a self-centered leader and ruler. He conspired against Naboth because Naboth refused to sell him his land. This is just one example of his evil.

So, did God ask someone to lie so Ahab would die? Yes. A spirit volunteered for the task and said they would lie to the prophets,
Now the point is God being depicted as lying is only situationally emergent
in the context of wanting Ahab dead for all his evil deeds. so in a more elementary term " each depiction of God is dependent on the context of the story as written.
It helps if you read the Bible and put things into context
please please tell me you understand now.
shalom

MaxInDHouse:
Why not study the Bible with the real disciples of Christ Jesus: JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES?

I was once a Muslim and from the way i look at matters relating to God as depicted in various books i discovered that there are contradicting ideas about God so i decided to find the one and only true religion that can give satisfying answers to all my questions by speaking to adherents of different religions until i met the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES their response to these questions will shock you!

Hello i'm really interested in your journey and would really love to hear more

Dtruthspeaker:
First of, you see God Commanded, then.you.see the bible runs throughout saying that The LORD GOD which we later see becamea The LORD andI The LORD GOD which interchangeably.

And later wr see The LORD GOD/The LORD iis The Son of God, called Jesus Christ, when He came visiting as a man.

And on creation of good and evil, is it not the same man who you praised for making the Bemz which you would have call good whom you still praise for making the evil machine gun used in killing bandits and kidnappers?

Did you call these things confusion? No.

You understand that the basic Law which is a thing is only good or evil depending on what it has done aka Deeds!

Hence, poison is what you use for your batteries and you called it good whereas, water is what you use for drinking whereas if you dropped in it, you would call it evil.

And there is no confusion in these things, so you see why i knee jerk on post like these?

You don't have to put yourself through all of these mental gymnastics if you just see the what is are discussing for what it is.
First i'm not talking about the Father and The son or the idea of trinity as you may have implied.
look at the bible verses i used to show my point and start from there, rather than an epilogue of false dichotomy.
like we read in Genesis 1; God commands things into existence, but in Genesis 2 we See that God creates with his hands by using pre-existing materials.
one more example if you still don't understand
Titus 1:2, Hebrew 6:18, Number 23:19 all say God can not lie
yet we see God lying and deceiving Ahab in 2 chor. 18:22
now do you get it ?

Dtruthspeaker:
Sorry, its my knee jerk reaction to potentially blasphemous post.

You said " The Bible does not present a singular depiction of God. It presents numerous different and frequently contradictory depiction of God,"

Whereas, the bible shows A great King issued Commands and His Subjects. carried out His Commands.

Then we also know every King a points Administrators to handle certain parts of His Domain.

In which Case The King a points His Son, The LORD to administer this place known as heaven and earth.

What is confusing about this?

Thanks for agreeing to a civil conversation
now this is what i mean when i say " The Bible does not present a single depiction of God. It presents numerous different and frequently contradictory depiction of God," is simply as the words imply He is depicted differently across the Bible, for instance in Genesis 1:3 (. 3 Then God commanded, “Let there be light”...) He is depicted as an ever above distant God who commands things into existence and yet in Genesis 2: 7 (7 Then the Lord God took some soil from the ground and formed a man[c] out of it; he breathed life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man began to live.

8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in Eden,) meanwhile here is is depicted as a more grounded God who doesn't speak things into existence but come down to create them with his own hands from pre-existing materials. heck he even planted a garden in verse 8.
we see this throughout the Bible where in some context God is said to be all good and nothing evil can come out of him and yet in Isaiah 45:7 you God say he is creator of good and evil.

I don't seem to understand the point you are trying to make here,
But let me tell you something, When the most popular institutions bearing the name the of Christ broadcast their wealth as somehow a part of the faith rather that prioritize Christ-like teachings and charity as a result in the eyes of many the church has come to represent corruption and greed

ok

this is so sad

Dtruthspeaker:
Don't be stupid.

Genesis shows The King Spoke and hands over this world to His Mighty Son, Who remained in charge throughout.

You can always make your point without the use of foul language.
Now to your point, what verse in Genesis are you talking about and did you actually read and comprehend the post at all?
Shalom

so sad

The Bible does not present a singular depiction of God. It presents numerous different and frequently contradictory depiction of God, And you can't just add them all together and look at the sum and have a fuller picture of God. You just get a tangled paradoxical mess.

What you can do to get a notion of a "God of the Bible" is negotiate with the the text, and center and prioritize certain depictions, and marginalize, reinterpret or outright ignore other depictions. And all of these is in the interest of making the text more meaningful or more useful for us within a given context or situation.

Which mean any "God of the Bible" that we fine is a situationally emergent, negotiated divine profile, because the Bible is not univocal.
it does not speak with a single unified voice, and does not present a single unified idea of God.

There's no such thing as sin.
It's made up concept

Hmmm

Page couldn't be found

Evil shild

Na waoh

Ok