The recent Israeli attack on a Munition Factory in Sudan, its Attack on a Syrian Nuclear Plant in 2007, and its attack on Iraq's Osirak Nuclear Reactor in 1981, and its preemptive attack on Egypt in 1967, all have one thing in common. ELEMENT OF SURPRISE!!

I have known all along that Israel's most important military doctrine is based on its use of - element of surprise i.e never making its military intentions known. Hence, the first day Israel told the world it was going to attack Iran's Nuclear plants, it was apparent that it has broken one of its most important military doctrine, and for the first time, I knew Israel was bluffing, and will never attack Iran. Thank God I did not hold my breath to be proven wrong when I arrived at this conclusion almost 8 years ago . I deduced that Israel will never attack Iran mainly for two reasons:

1. Israel does not have the military capability to completely destroy Iran Nuclear plants which are spread across the entire country of Iran. With Iran being a country 3 times the size of Iraq, it makes it even more complicated. However only America has the capacity to bomb Iran`s nuclear ambition to stone age. Thus, Israel`s incessant threats on how it was going to launch attack on Iran tomorrow, next week, next month, next few months, next season, next year yada yada yada, was just a bluff and desperate plea for America to do it for them.

2. Israel can not deal with Iran`s response, even if it has the capacity to attack Iran, like it did in Sudan, Syria, and Iraq. Because, unlike these countries, Iran has become almost technologically self-sufficient militarily and with a die hard ally like Hezbollah on its side, Iran can drag Israel into a prolong war. A price which would be too high to pay according to Israeli military Intelligence. Iranians are very nationalistic and resilient people. Iran fought an 8 years war with Saddam Hussein`s Iraq even while under a UN military Embargo ( at a time when Iran was heavily dependent on foreign countries for its military hardware), and at a time when Saddam Hussein was supported financially and militarily by Western countries and most Arab countries. Iran was unrelenting, dragged Iraq into a prolonged war and refused several truces called by UN, and agreed by Saddam Hussein (who ironically first attacked Iran).

The big writing is there on the wall folks. If America does not do the job for Israel (which I doubt it will), ISRAEL WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH A NUCLEAR IRAN. The US is bogged down in wars and deep economic crisis presently. Even if a war monger President like Romney comes to power, US`s chances of attacking Iran is almost ZERO! Sanctioning Iran economically is as far as US can go for Israel. President Obama made this clear. Romney may say he would sacrifice his ``life`` for Israel should he get elected, but do not be fooled, even if he comes to power (which I doubt), He wont attack Iran. America is so much in debt and still nursing its loses in Iraq and Afghanistan, hence it can not afford another war in the near distant future. Going to another war simply for Israel may even result to a state of Anarchy in US, the American people are fed up with wars now. Lucky timing for Iran I must say!

Israel & Iran may have to leave in peace with each other, a peace maintained by Mutually Assured Destruction or MAD - knowing fully well that in the event one attacks another with Nuclear weapon, the attacker would as well be toasted. Since MAD maintained peace between US & former Soviet Union, it would work for Nuclear Iran & Israel.

My opinions may not go down well with some people on this forum, especially those whose support for anything Israel is based on sentiments rather than logic. I hope they prove me wrong by sharing their intellectual point of view to objective-minded readers on this forum.

Nice write up. As you earlier stated in the article that the zionists are known for surprise attacks. So therefore believing israel won't attack iran may end-up been a surprise to you when they do.
My take-»» Israel will definitely attack iran when the time is right.

it is well known that Iran Nuclear Progrmme is a global treat (though some ally are interested & promoted of it ) and some anti-ally are planning to disloge that programme by all means.
so let us expect the unexpected

True, as long as Israel keeps shouting about Iran they will not attack.

However it is obvious that attacks have been going on through the back door, although unsuccesful.


I exoect Israel to fall silent within the next few months, and then I exoect an attack.

Gents, i know the source of this write up. but let me first of all state here that without doubt, israel has never said they will destroy iranian nuclear facilities but the speculations have been drawn from the past military manouvers and hits that has marveled the world in time past. dont forget isreal has always been successful in the most impossible task ( check history and ask the intelligence world). they are respected amongst the KGB, MI6, and CIA for succeeding against all odds.
President putin said, in one of the speech he granted to his inner cartel in 2003, that he knows isreal will definitely knock iranian nukes off, but let them do some business regardless of whose ass is gored.
Check the recent hit in sudan, and compare the distance of the flight manouver. even longer than the distance to iranian sites. remember, distance is the only constrain put up by analyst. but now that is laid to rest.
There is going to be war and isreal will come out stronger.

Iran has been dealing with a 'nuclear' Israel.
I think it is only fair to return the favor.

Israel & Iran may have to leave in peace with each other, a peace maintained by Mutually Assured Destruction or MAD - knowing fully well that in the event one attacks another with Nuclear weapon, the attacker would as well be toasted. Since MAD maintained peace between US & former Soviet Union, it would work for Nuclear Iran & Israel.

Simple! So, I don't know what the problem is really.

israel has never said they will destroy iranian nuclear facilities but the speculations have been drawn from the past military manouvers and hits that has marveled the world in time past.

Holy God!! you must have been out of touch with Global politics/events. Please, read this Israeli News for a start: http://www.timesofisrael.com/decision-by-netanyahu-and-barak-to-strike-iran-is-almost-final-israeli-tv-says/

Gents, i know the source of this write up. but let me first of all state here that without doubt, israel has never said they will destroy iranian nuclear facilities but the speculations have been drawn from the past military manouvers and hits that has marveled the world in time past.dont forget isreal has always been successful in the most impossible task ( check history and ask the intelligence world). they are respected amongst the KGB, MI6, and CIA for succeeding against all odds.
President putin said, in one of the speech he granted to his inner cartel in 2003, that he knows isreal will definitely knock iranian nukes off, but let them do some business regardless of whose Bottom is gored.
Check the recent hit in sudan, and compare the distance of the flight manouver. even longer than the distance to iranian sites. remember, distance is the only constrain put up by analyst. but now that is laid to rest.
There is going to be war and isreal will come out stronger.

Please read the post very well. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

Because a country has the ability to attack Mexico does not mean it also has the ability to attack the United States. Sudan and Iran are worlds apart in many ways; I'll elaborate a bit:

1) Next to Israel, Iran has the most sophisticated defense system in the entire region, and its airspace, particularly the areas close to the nuclear sites can not be penetrated by any flying object in Israel's arsenal.

2) Iran's Nuclear sites are not only spread across the entire country, but most are buried deep beneath mountains, which makes them almost impossible to destroy completely, meaning they may be operational again within a year or two. And in the case of such an unsuccessful attack, Iran would then have the excuse to leave the United Nation's Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty organization(NPT), for which it is a member and Israel is not . Ironically , Israel has refused to be a member of the UN organization (NPT). Iran after it leaves the NPT, would then aggressively build a Nuclear bomb as a deterrent i.e If they dont have one already.

3) Iran, unlike Sudan (a poor, backward and flea-infested country), has the capability to respond in kind to any Israeli attack. The reason why you dont see countries like US, china, Russia, UK, North Korea, France, Germany, India, Pakistan etc at war with each other is because they all have military deterrents, thus each one has the ability to fight back and cause major harm to any attack on its sovereignty, a price high enough to dissuade any attacker. A country is only susceptible to attacks and humiliation by enemy countries only when it is militarily weak and powerless to fight back; Sudan is a very good example. Israel's No.1 enemy and next door neighbor Hezbollah has many munition and missiles sites/factories in Lebanon. And you already mentioned how Israel has the world's best Intelligence & Security agencies (Mossad & Shin-Beth), which I dont doubt. Hence, you and I would agree that Israel knows their exact locations in Lebanon, but have you asked yourself why Israel has not attacked any of them since the 2006 war? Think about it!

To allege that the reason why Israel is not attacking (or has not attacked) Iran yet is because of the distance between the two countries is absolutely not true. But let one assume for a moment that you were right, and also assume for a moment that Israel is crazy enough to launch an attack on Iran, because Israel, as you said, has just ''laid to rest'' the issue of DISTANCE to Iran, cos its recent attack on A MUNITION FACTORY in Sudan proves it. Take a very good look at the map of the middle east, Israeli planes would have to fly over enemy countries like Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, or Iraq before they can reach Iran. Make no mistake, those countries have sophisticated air defense systems as well, and they have all made their stance known to the world; that they would shoot down any Israeli plane flying over their airspace. Israel problem is thus compounded!

According to the news link below, a couple of days ago, the Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Iran has temporarily pulled back its ambition to build Nuclear Weapons, hence Israel would have to confront Iran in next summer i.e 8 - 10 months from now.

[url]http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/143315/DM-Barak%3A-Attack-Against-Iran-was-Cancelled-at-the-Last-Moment.html[/url]

And remarkably according to the news link below, the next day, Iran again dared Israel by confirming to the world that it has finished installing uranium centrifuges at its Nuclear Plant in Fordo.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-confirms-it-has-finished-installing-uranium-centrifuges-at-fordo-plant.premium-1.473862


The recent postponement by Israel of an attack on Iran is one of many and Incessant postponements that has been ongoing for the past 8 years. Sorry to break your balls, but you'll be wasting your time if you are expecting any attack on Iran by Israel; US may be, but I dont see that happening either. Iran is already a Nuclear Power!

Nice write up. As you earlier stated in the article that the zionists are known for surprise attacks. So therefore believing israel won't attack iran may end-up been a surprise to you when they do. My take-»» Israel will definitely attack iran when the time is right.

Until now, those who believe Israel will attack Iran are still in the majority, hence it wont be a surprise at all if Israel eventually do, which I greatly doubt. However a SURPRISE would be, the majority accepting the fact that Israel has bluffed and lacks the ability to launch an attack on Iran, and is on her knees asking the US to do it for them.

BTW, "When the time is right" is an ambiguous phrase and could be no time at all. Nigeria my country, would be the world's next superpower "when the time is right"!

However, I do agree that it is "the right time" for Israel to launch an attack on Sudan, considering Sudan is a poor, hungry, educationally backward, and militarily weak African country that cant fight back when attacked by a country like Israel. Iran is not Sudan and I dont see it becoming like Sudan in the near future, untill then, you can keep waiting.

DO NOT BELIEVE THE MEDIA.

Iran is TRADING THEIR OIL IN GOLD.

Oil by All Nations is traded in the good ole American Dollar. It is OIL that keeps the American Dollar Afloat.

the american dollar aint shit without it being traded in OIL.

and because of this Israel and America WILL come after Iran.

Good luck when they do. Because china and Russia, India Need that Iranian Oil


China wants to CONTINUE developing. How can America HORDE AND HOAG all the oil?

This country is a greedy a. r. se PIG!

and Israel the country/the zionist that run IT and RUN America are some DEAD ON THE INSIDE mu tha fuggers that will stop at NOTHING
to continue padding Bank Accounts stolen from Africa/asia/and even homeowners.


DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE

When Israel attacks Iran it will do it with tactical nuclear missiles on those specific Iranian Nuclear sites. It will use tactical missiles for the following reasons:

1. In order to ensure that the sites are completely destroyed by the massive explosion and the ensuing radiation. They will become unusable forever.

2. Isreal can conveniently deny that it actually attacks Iran and could claim that the explosions and radiations are actually caused by accidents in the Iranian nuclear sites.

3. This will teach Iran and any othe Middle Eastern country a seriouss lesson about fcking with Israel.


Believe me,there are several ways of firind a tactical nuclear missile at a country and absolutely nobody will know.



If I were Israel that is what I would do.

I think that the military capability of Iran is greatly underated by Israel. There are strong ties of military cooperation and weapons sales between Beijing and Tehran, and China has provided assistance to Iran in the development of its missile and nuclear programmes. Now we all know that the chineses have long-range nuclear missiles, and because china and Iran exchange intelligence and weapons there is a great possibility that Iran already got many nuclear missiles. I think that the biggest mistake of Israel is to believe that the Iranians do not have an efficient capacity of deadly retaliation.

Horus: I think that the military capability of Iran is greatly underated by Israel. There are strong ties of military cooperation and weapons sales between Beijing and Tehran, and China has provided assistance to Iran in the development of its missile and nuclear programmes. Now we all know that the chineses have long-range nuclear missiles, and because china and Iran exchange intelligence and weapons there is a great possibility that Iran already got many nuclear missiles. I think that the biggest mistake of Israel is to believe that the Iranians do not have an efficient capacity of deadly retaliation.

China is not stvpid to sell the mullahs a nuclear weapon. Iran is not "that precious" to China for China to risk dragging military muscle with the United States. Even Russia, the staunchest of America's rival, refused to sell military defense technology to the mullahs.

[size=17pt]China reaffirms support for Iran's nuclear rights[/size]

Sep 12, 2012

China has once again expressed support for Iran’s nuclear energy program and has insisted that diplomacy is the only way to resolve the West’s dispute with Iran over the program.

The chairman of the Standing Committee of the Chinese National People's Congress, Wu Bangguo, made the remarks during a meeting with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Tehran on Tuesday, the president’s official website reported.

Wu said that China believes the Islamic Republic’s “right to the peaceful use of nuclear energy must be respected” and Beijing opposes “pressure, sanctions, and threats of any kind in this regard.”

The high-ranking Chinese official also said that “the expansion of Tehran-Beijing cooperation is in line with the common interests of the two countries” and efforts must be made to rise to “the challenges posed by the enemies.”

Ahmadinejad asserted that the enemies “are not as powerful as they pretend to be,” and said that Iran and China “will act in the interests of the two countries, regardless of the enemies’ pressure.”

[img]http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20120911/hbeig20120911220951907.jpg[/img]
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (R) meets with the chairman of the Standing Committee
of the Chinese National People's Congress, Wu Bangguo, in Tehran on September 11, 2012

The Iranian president also noted that there should be no limitation in the extent of economic exchanges between the two countries.

Wu is on a three-day official visit to Iran. He came to the country on the invitation of Iranian Majlis Speaker Ali Larijani.

At the beginning of 2012, the United States and the European Union imposed new sanctions on Iran’s oil and financial sectors with the goal of preventing other countries from purchasing Iranian oil and conducting transactions with the Central Bank of Iran.

The illegal US-engineered sanctions were imposed based on the unfounded accusation that Iran is pursuing non-civilian objectives in its nuclear energy program.

The US and Israel have repeatedly threatened to take military action against Iran in order to force the Islamic Republic to halt its uranium enrichment program, which Washington and Tel Aviv claim includes a military component.

Iran rejects the allegations, arguing that as a committed signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), it has the right to use nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.

In addition, the IAEA has conducted numerous inspections of Iran's nuclear facilities but has never found any evidence showing that Iran's civilian nuclear program has been diverted to nuclear weapons production.

Iran is currently China's third largest supplier of crude, providing Beijing with roughly 12 percent of its total annual oil consumption -- nearly one million barrels per day.

Trade between the two countries is currently dominated by Iran's energy exports, while the main Chinese exports to Iran include machinery and textiles among other consumer goods.

Source: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/12/261100/china-supports-irans-nuclear-rights/

When Israel attacks Iran it will do it with tactical nuclear missiles on those specific Iranian Nuclear sites. It will use tactical missiles for the following reasons:

1. In order to ensure that the sites are completely destroyed by the massive explosion and the ensuing radiation. They will become unusable forever.

2. Isreal can conveniently deny that it actually attacks Iran and could claim that the explosions and radiations are actually caused by accidents in the Iranian nuclear sites.

3. This will teach Iran and any othe Middle Eastern country a seriouss lesson about fcking with Israel.


Believe me,there are several ways of firind a tactical nuclear missile at a country and absolutely nobody will know.



If I were Israel that is what I would do.

Very ridiculous indeed!

BTW, Israel is not as crazy as you may think. Iran's retaliation would make such adventurism unworthy for Israel. Besides, the day Israel fires anything close to a Nuclear missile (tactical or not) at Iran, would be the day Iran would announce to the world it would build a Nuclear weapon, and may showcase it within few months, cos they already have the knowledge.


I believe, Israel military capability is the most overrated in the world. As we speak,Israel cant even fight and defeat Iran's proxy and their next door neighbor Hezbollah.

China is not stvpid to sell the mullahs a nuclear weapon. Iran is not "that precious" to China for China to risk dragging military muscle with the United States. Even Russia, the staunchest of America's rival, refused to sell military defense technology to the mullahs.

Yes, China and Russia are not stvpid to sell the mullahs nuclear weapon, but they are sure smart enough to teach them how to build one. How else do you think Iran was able to build all those sophisticated missiles in their arsenal? Ever asked yourself who built those nuclear plants Israel & US are so desperate to destroy in Iran, and how Iran mastered the technology of nuclear enrichment ?

Unlike US, Russia & China often do not only give their close allies fish when they are hungry, but they teach them how to fish as well!

Maple:

Yes, China and Russia are not stvpid to sell the mullahs nuclear weapon, but they are sure smart enough to teach them how to build one. How else do you think Iran was able to build all those sophisticated missiles in their arsenal? Ever asked yourself who built those nuclear plants Israel & US are so desperate to destroy in Iran, and how Iran mastered the technology of nuclear enrichment ?

Unlike US, Russia & China often do not only give their close allies fish when they are hungry, but they teach them how to fish as well!

Tehran does not need to be schooled on building nuclear weapons by the Russians or the Chinese. Any nuclear physics graduate who spends half a day on google will probably have enough information to make a dirty "home-made" nuclear bombs. This is a knowledge that has been available freely since the 1920s and i will be surprised if all the nuclear scientist in Iran combined would require Russia or China to understand the dynamics of the process.

As a matter of fact, Tehran does have the technical know how to build a bomb if they want to. But the US/Israel won't let them. Which leaves them with only one choice--buy from outside. But no one will be stvpid enough to sell to them! China will not want the US selling warheads to Taiwan, and Russia will not want a return to the arms race that bankrupted the old Soviet Union.

Russia and China do not necessarily view Iran as a staunch ally. For both countries, they simply love Iran's money, but when push comes to shove, China will not put it's 1 billion plus citizen's life at risk to fight against the US on behalf of Iran, and Moscow wouldn't risk confrontation with NATO either, so it's strictly OYO!!!

As a matter of fact, Tehran does have the technical know how to build a bomb if they want to. But the US/Israel won't let them. Which leaves them with only one choice--buy from outside. But no one will be stvpid enough to sell to them! China will not want the US selling warheads to Taiwan, and Russia will not want a return to the arms race that bankrupted the old Soviet Union.

Would that include North Korea as well ?? I believe Iran would not need a permission from US/Israel to build a Nuclear bomb, should it decide to build one.

Russia and China do not necessarily view Iran as a staunch ally. For both countries, they simply love Iran's money, but when push comes to shove, China will not put it's 1 billion plus citizen's life at risk to fight against the US on behalf of Iran, and Moscow wouldn't risk confrontation with NATO either, so it's strictly OYO!!!

What has US/Israel or NATO done to Russia who despite their strong opposition, built all the Nuclear plants in Iran which they so much want to destroy??

What has US/Israel or NATO done to China & Russia who have continued to pass Hi-Tech missiles know-how to Iran??

Do you think Russia and China are that stvpid not to know that once US finish with Iran, they may be next or close to next??

Perhaps you dont know, but battle lines have long been drawn between US/NATO and Russia/China. A cold war game has been going on between these giants, and Iran & North Korea happen to be Russia & China's knights in this ''war chess'' game. Russia/China may not intervene directly in the event of a war between US/Israel & Iran, but they surely are arming Iran to a level that should US/Israel go to war with Iran, it would be such a big disaster, that they would never think of partaking in another war for the next 100 years.

When Israel attacked Iran's ally Hezbollah in its invasion of Lebanon in 2006, who would have believed that the Almighty Israeli military would be azz whooped by bunch of guerrilla fighters?? Mighty Armies rise and fall!

I read your post over and over again but wont stop laughing. the day iran gets an inch closer to isreali military might, then isreal is as good as finished. Let me tell you, iranian military technology is obsolete. what do they have in their arsenal that will deflate the isreali war macbine? Yu mentioned hezbollah....let me tell you that hizbollah and hamas are there to keep isreal busy. it doesnt take isreal anything to wipe them off from existence but they are bargain chip. politicians and businness men have to make profit. Know that the security of isreal has not and can never be outsourced to even their stunchest ally america. Once isreal percieves that an existential threat looms, the whole of the middle east would go into flames. arabs know this. talking about air defence systems, it doesnt take isreal 48hrs to take control of any airspace in the region. they did that to syria recently when they bombed their nuclear plant and have been doing that in other countries and will never stop controlling the air system. Do you know that the arabs have an ancient hatred for the iranians? and saudi has never hidden their will to see iran go down.
Let me ask yu maple, when and how long have you started following this middle east affairs? I have lived in almost 9 arab/ middle eastern countries and have had access to first hand info on their strenght. If isreal was wweak, they would have been swallowed up by your muslim brothers.....but watch out and see impossible dymystified.
whats the capability of the lame-duck iranian submarine? what kind of warship do they parade? can you compare their best missile, shihab-3 to the sophsitcation of isreali amoury? you really need to look deep cos after the war, nothing might be left of iran, am 99% sure of this.

^^^^^
Dont be angry, tone down the name callings and lets have an intellectual discussion.

Lebanon, Palestine, Sudan, Syria,and Iraq are Iran allies and they are Arab Nations. The majority of Arabs may not like the Iranians, but they dislike Israel and Jews even more. Most of the political ramblings & enmity between Iran and some Arab countries, especially Saudi Arabia & the Gulf countries is mostly at the governmental level. Since the overthrow of President Mubarak and the coming to power of The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Egypt as a country has strengthened its relations with Iran, and has now become more hostile to Israel. The leaders in Saudi and the gulf kingdoms are widely regarded as US/Zionist puppets, hence they are hated even more by their own people.

These puppet rulers would not mind if Israeli planes fly over their country's airspace to launch an attack on Iran's Nuclear facilities, but they are very afraid of Iran's response and the backlash that would come from their own people and the Muslim world as a whole, for collaborating with Israel to attack a Muslim country. Besides, Iran has already declared to them that allowing Israeli jets to launch an attack on Iranian Soil through their airspace would be tantamount to WAR. These unpopular puppet rulers also know Iran being their strongest neighbor, has the ability to cause political unrest in their Kingdoms; the type of unrest that would make the current Syrian unrest look like a picnic. They love power (who doesn't?) and would not want to be overthrown by their people, especially with the help of Iran. Hence as much as they hate Iran, they would not partake in any adventure with Israel. So, is it any surprise that they've all agreed to shoot down any Israeli plane that crosses their airspace ??

Once isreal percieves that an existential threat looms, the whole of the middle east would go into flames. arabs know this. talking about air defence systems, it doesnt take isreal 48hrs to take control of any airspace in the region. they did that to syria recently when they bombed their nuclear plant and have been doing that in other countries and will never stop controlling the air system.

Perhaps you are not aware, but for the past 8 years the Israelis have been telling who ever cares to listen, that Iran is an existential threat to the state of Israel. So, if the Israeli military is that superb and Iran military obsolete, as you have said, perhaps you could educate us on why Israel has not attacked Iran till now??

You also mentioned that you have lived in many middle eastern countries - God knows where and for how long, hence you have access to first hand information on their strenghts. I would really appreciate if you could share this "first hand" information with readers. Thanks!

Maple:

Would that include North Korea as well ?? I believe Iran would not need a permission from US/Israel to build a Nuclear bomb, should it decide to build one.



What has US/Israel or NATO done to Russia who despite their strong opposition, built all the Nuclear plants in Iran which they so much want to destroy??

What has US/Israel or NATO done to China & Russia who have continued to pass Hi-Tech missiles know-how to Iran??

Do you think Russia and China are that stvpid not to know that once US finish with Iran, they may be next or close to next??

Perhaps you dont know, but battle lines have long been drawn between US/NATO and Russia/China. A cold war game has been going on between these giants, and Iran & North Korea happen to be Russia & China's knights in this ''war chess'' game. Russia/China may not intervene directly in the event of a war between US/Israel & Iran, but they surely are arming Iran to a level that should US/Israel go to war with Iran, it would be such a big disaster, that they would never think of partaking in another war for the next 100 years.

When Israel attacked Iran's ally Hezbollah in its invasion of Lebanon in 2006, who would have believed that the Almighty Israeli military would be azz whooped by bunch of guerrilla fighters?? Mighty Armies rise and fall!

For the Russians and the Chinese, it's strictly business nothing more. They also proposed to build Nigeria's nuclear plants.

Building a nuclear plant is different from building a nuclear weapon. Any country can support Iran in building a nuclear plant for civil purposes, but whatever country supports Iran using those nuclear plants to enrich Uranium at a level that is good enough to produce a nuclear bomb will have to ready itself for a challenge against Washington.

Neither Russia nor China is interested in this. Not in the least on behalf of Iran. Russia is only interested in Russia and same with China. Russia will be cautious of the level and sophistication of military hardware it can supply to either Iran or North Korea, since Russia itself wouldn't want Washington supplying Poland with heavy warheads and China wouldn't want his closest adversaries, Tawian and Japan to gain access to an "out of the world" military technology that can only be supplied by Washington.

It's a concession game, not "war-chess" as you may wish to put it. Russia isn't interested in another cold war, it wouldn't want countries like Georgia, Poland, Sweden, Bradenburg etc gaining access to military sophistication. It would want to seek NATO's concession on issues relating to Afghanistan and the missile defense shield in Europe. Same with China. China for a large part is US's biggest creditor. If you have your life savings borrowed out to someone, it is in your interest that the person doesn't get pissed off and commit suicide. US and it's European allies are also the biggest importer of Chinese made goods, so China risks economic armageddon for its 1 billion plus citizen by getting itself mired in such a dispute...all for what/who? Iran? why should Iran be that important to the Chinese?

Since these countries and the US both have huge stuffs to gain from each other, it is important that they must seek concessions to agree on a common front.

I can't discount the possibilities that North Korea could very well arm Iran with those weapons. However that said, you should also understand that both NATO and Moscow are spending huge dollar amounts every year to monitor and control arms movement across countries especially military equipments and parts relating to conventional weapons. If it were not the case, then countries such as Saudi and co would have easily obtained such means of deterrence. It is what the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty is all about. You can't simply just smuggle a nuclear missile in your boxers, things like that will have to be shipped and the US Navy for the most part have huge presence in majority of international waters.

Russia may hate the US, but it is also in Russia's interest to work hand in hand with the US to limit the movement of nuclear weapons. What's to say that in 20 years, a government in Iran wouldn't turn it's nuclear weapons against Russia?...well that's how those "war chess players" think.

Also, i think you grossly underrate Israel military's capabilities. If Israel were to forcefully deal with Hezbollah, it will definitely be termed massacre, not a fair war. Israel buttfcked Egypt and Syria in the Yom Kippur war,.....did so much damaged to a combined Egypt, Syria and Jordan in the six day war...captured Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Old City of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.....should they be taking slaves before you know these aren't exactly the kind of people you mess with? Israel military capacities has been severally tested and proven and not just that, it is backed by the most powerful military on earth, you don't underrate such people.

ok maple, lets leave the debate for the D-day. after that we can continue the thread.

Violent, though I respect your opinion, but I do not find it convincing, hence I would give you my reasons.

For the Russians and the Chinese, it's strictly business nothing more. They also proposed to build Nigeria's nuclear plants.

Building a nuclear plant is different from building a nuclear weapon. Any country can support Iran in building a nuclear plant for civil purposes, but whatever country supports Iran using those nuclear plants to enrich Uranium at a level that is good enough to produce a nuclear bomb will have to ready itself for a challenge against Washington.

Nigeria and Iran are two different political entities. Security and Business/Economy interests are often the reason Nations go to war. Without security, economy or Business would be jeopardized, hence Security and Business/economy interests go hand in hand. Nations form allies when they have economy&Security interests to protect. Therefore, it is absolutely UNTRUE to say Russia & China interest in Iran is strictly business. The security of Iran is paramount to both China & Russia as well. If Iran's security is threatened, it means Russia/China Business interests are threatened. Thus, if one goes down, the rest would have a lot to loose. Their security is crucial to their economy survival. The Russia-China-Iran alliance is to protect their economy and security interest, and to do that, they find it necessary to curtail US hegemony & military encroachment in their region or zone of influence.

Countries that have Nuclear plants and the technical know how of Uranium enrichment are only a step away from building a Nuclear bomb. Germany, Brazil, Turkey, Japan, South Korea are few examples. Each can build Nuclear weapons within a couple of months if they choose to do so. And to say any country (especially Iran) can be supported to build a Nuclear plant is absolutely not true. It is easier for a country to master the technology of Uranium enrichment at a level sufficient to build nuclear bombs when it has Nuclear Reactors/Plants.

Take a close look at the Middle East or any Arab country. The US/Israel has always and strongly opposed the building of anything close to a Nuclear plant in all countries in the middle east for fear that they may one day have the capacity and knowledge to build Nuclear Weapons, hence tilt the Power balance against Israel in that region. The bombings of Nuclear reactors/Plants in Syria and Iraq are good examples. Please prove me wrong and tell me, which country (apart from Iran) in the whole middle east or Arab world has a single Nuclear plant today, even the US does not trust it Arab allies (Saudi, Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain etc) enough to let them have even a single Nuclear plant/reactor for medical research. Recently, The Jordanian King Mohammed, a staunch US Ally recently accused US/Israel of sabotaging its ambition to build a Nuclear Power Plants after the US/Israel went around threatening countries not to build it for Jordan.

Ironically, Iran at the time of the Shah i.e pre 1979 was US staunchest ally after Israel in the entire world. In 1950 the US began the construction of the Bushehr Nuclear Power plant for Iran with the ultimate aim of making Iran a nuclear power so as to dissuade the USSR from any ambition to invade Iran. But as soon as the Shah fell and the Mullahs came to power, the US stopped the project completely. Many years after, Iran seek help from Germany and France to complete the project, but both decline due to Political pressure. Iran turned to Russia who against western political pressure completed the project, and built 6 more nuclear facilities (Natanz, Fordo, Arak, Lashkar Abad, Yazd, Isfahan)for Iran. So here is my questions:

If the Iranian Nuclear Enrichment plants built by Russia in Natanz, Fordo and Lashkar Abad are not good enough to Enrich Uranium enough to build bombs, why is US/Israel and western world worried about Iran?? and what has Washington done to Moscow ??

Neither Russia nor China is interested in this. Not in the least on behalf of Iran. Russia is only interested in Russia and same with China. Russia will be cautious of the level and sophistication of military hardware it can supply to either Iran or North Korea, since Russia itself wouldn't want Washington supplying Poland with heavy warheads and China wouldn't want his closest adversaries, Tawian and Japan to gain access to an "out of the world" military technology that can only be supplied by Washington.

To be interested in oneself is to guard and protect your interest wherever they are. China's thirst for oil has surpassed that of the US, and it gets the bulk of its Oil from Iran, in fact there's an ongoing OIL pipeline project running to China from Iran via Pakistan, hence an attack on Iran would jeopardize it. Any disruption in the flow of Iranian Oil would dealt a heavy blow on China, and you think China is gonna sit down and let that happened??

You probably have not read my earlier posts. China and Russia may not intervene directly in the event of a US war with Iran, but they surely would make US bleed just like they did in Vietnam, by ensuring Iran has the weapons and technology to make any war adventure unworthy for US. Just recently, Russia sold a 5th generation radar called NEBO SV to Iran, the only radar capable of detecting every stealth flying object in US arsenal. Russia, China & Iran are the only countries with this 5th generation radar. The Radar jamming equipment Iran used to capture US most advanced Drone, was given to Iran by Russia and is called Avtobazar. President Putin long ago said they may not go to war with US for Iran, but they'll give Iran all it needs to defend itself. In order words Russia is telling US/Israel dont fvck with Iran.

Like I said in my earlier posts, a cold war has been going on for a very long time between US/NATO and Russia/China. US always supplies Taiwan/Japan with some of the most sophisticated weapons in its Arsenal. They have defense treaties, thus Taiwan & Japan are covered under the US Nuclear Umbrella. As for Poland, Poland - courtesy of US - is a member of NATO, a worse danger to Russia than Poland having multiple heavy Warheads.

China's arch enemy is India, and US has been passing sophisticated military technology including Nuclear to India so it can curtail China rising ambitions.,. It seems to me that you have a lot of catching up to do, because the ongoing Cold war has long left you behind!

It's a concession game, not "war-chess" as you may wish to put it. Russia isn't interested in another cold war, it wouldn't want countries like Georgia, Poland, Sweden, Bradenburg etc gaining access to military sophistication. It would want to seek NATO's concession on issues relating to Afghanistan and the missile defense shield in Europe. Same with China. China for a large part is US's biggest creditor. If you have your life savings borrowed out to someone, it is in your interest that the person doesn't get pissed off and commit suicide. US and it's European allies are also the biggest importer of Chinese made goods, so China risks economic armageddon for its 1 billion plus citizen by getting itself mired in such a dispute...all for what/who? Iran? why should Iran be that important to the Chinese?

Since these countries and the US both have huge stuffs to gain from each other, it is important that they must seek concessions to agree on a common front.

Russia has a lot of stakes in Georgia, and the reason Georgia has been refused entry into NATO is because US/NATO does not want to go to war with Russia either. However, Georgia has a steady supply of US sophisticated weapons including defense systems like the Patriots missile & F-16s, which Russia destroyed in its war with Georgia few years ago. Sweden is not a threat to Russia. As for the missile defense in Europe, it is to curtail Russia , and the US has made no concessions and have gone ahead with it. Russia is pissed off!

If US can have its way, it would not only be a creditor to China, but would have the entire country of China to itself. Without security, there'll be no economy to protect, and China is a huge economy giant, and no country threatens its security and economy like the US. According to most analyst, the US can not pay China what it owes it, and the only way US can circumvent its debt is to wage war on China. It is no surprise that every year China increases its defense budget at a percentage higher than any country.

US needs a war with China to avoid paying. An attack on Iran by US would be a decisive move against China's security/economy interest. First priority for China is to safeguard its security, economy is second. Mind you China is very much working on a future independent of US markets.

I can't discount the possibilities that North Korea could very well arm Iran with those weapons. However that said, you should also understand that both NATO and Moscow are spending huge dollar amounts every year to monitor and control arms movement across countries especially military equipments and parts relating to conventional weapons. If it were not the case, then countries such as Saudi and co would have easily obtained such means of deterrence. It is what the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty is all about. You can't simply just smuggle a nuclear missile in your boxers, things like that will have to be shipped and the US Navy for the most part have huge presence in majority of international waters.

Russia and China sells weapons and pass sophisticated missile technology to Iran, via North Korea. You sure know that North Korea gives no hoot about US and the western world. It can sell Nuclear weapons to Iran without blinking an eye, besides it has economy problems for God knows how long and needs money. Because of North Korea, most analyst dont rule out the possibility of Iran already having Nuclear weapons. There are handful of countries who have purchased Nuclear bombs through back doors, but would not admit it (would you??). The US is not that efficient in controlling what goes in and out of its borders and ports, not to talk of controlling what goes into other countries. The so-called weapons proliferation treaties you talked about are only good for the books. France gave Israel its first Nuke bomb and the US has given Israel at least 150 Nuclear Weapons (including tactical Nukes), and there you talk of Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?? The Biggest arms & Nuclear arms proliferators in the world are the five UNSC members, and the US tops the list, followed by Russia and China.

In case you dont know, the Saudis are the financiers of Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons Program. Their deterrence is the Pakistani Nuclear Umbrella.

You overestimate the US too much, US that it took 10 years to find Osama Bin Laden ?? Some of Hezbollah's sophisticated weapons were transported by ships to Lebanon, and neither US or Israel ever knew, until after it gave Israel an azz whooping in 2006.

Also, i think you grossly underrate Israel military's capabilities. If Israel were to forcefully deal with Hezbollah, it will definitely be termed massacre, not a fair war. Israel buttfcked Egypt and Syria in the Yom Kippur war,.....did so much damaged to a combined Egypt, Syria and Jordan in the six day war...captured Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Old City of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.....should they be taking slaves before you know these aren't exactly the kind of people you mess with? Israel military capacities has been severally tested and proven and not just that, it is backed by the most powerful military on earth, you don't underrate such people.

You seem to base Israels military capability on past glories. If you studied the military glories of Nations you know that TIME is no respecter of any Nation. Every military giant rises and falls. A nation falls when it weakens militarily from within or when its enemies grow bolder and stronger. Israeli's triumph over the Arabs in the Six day wars was not due to the sophistication of weapons in their Armoury, because the Arabs were well armed by the Soviets. Israel's successes were mainly due to the fact that the Israelis had more tactical and battlefield experience. The bulk of the Israeli army at that time were battle hardened and are Holocaust survivors from WWII, and they gave a combine Arabs armies a good azz whooping. Those battle hardened Ashkenazis were more dedicated to their newly found country's survival, more dedicated than any soldier in the present Israeli Military.

Today the bulk of Israeli soldiers is made up of first generation Immigrants from Europe and they aint that dedicated to Israel. They feel big and relish the experience of fighting stone throwing & rag-tag Palestinian militants inside their Merkeva tanks and F-16s. But, when a well-Equipped, die-hard and battle hardened guerrilla Army taps them on their backs, they shake in their pants. Most of these Immigrants are from Central Europe, they came to Israel to escape the economy hardship in central Europe. Most would prefer to go back to Europe than to die for Israel. So, it is no surprise that a tiny 'Guerrilla' force gave them a good azz whooping.

Imagine Hezbollah subjecting Israel to 24/7 aerial bombardments and even destroying Israel's most Advance War Ship (Sa'ar 5) with an Iranian-made Cruise missile, and there was nothing Israelis could do about it. Never has Israel been humiliated this way. The US/Israel greatly underrated Hezbollah fighting capability. In 2006, a small Arab Guerilla Army achieved victory over Israel, something the whole Arab countries Armies could not achieved in 1967 & 1973.,. how time changes. Hezbollah fighting tactics have come to be admired by even US and its arch enemy Israel. Today, Hezbollah is the best example of how a Guerrilla force could use conventional weapons to subdue an enemy. And who are the pioneers of Hezbollah tactics?? IRAN, that's who!

If weapon sophistication wins wars, the Soviets would not have been defeated by a rag-tagged guerrilla army in Afghanistan. The Vietnamese defeated the US despite US sophistication in weaponries. Being unafraid to die plus little sophistication is what you make great soldiers from. The 3 Israelis (2 are corpses) to 100 Hezbollah prisoner exchange in the aftermath of the 2006 war, and the 1 (Gilad Shalit) to 200 Hamas prisoner exchange last year, tells you what Israelis enemies and most people know of Israel's greatest weakness. Israelis with all their sophisticated weaponry are too afraid to die. Incase you do not know, Israel wanted a ceasefire and an early way out of the 2006 war with Hezbollah; when it became obvious to Israel the war was turning out to be a disaster i.e about two weeks into the war. It was US that kept the pressure on Israel to go on for two more weeks, because the duel between Hezbollah and Israel was supposed to be a trial/assesment for US invasion of IRAN, but it turned out to be a very huge disappointment.

Just like you, the Israelis believed too much in their past glories, that they are mighty and have mighty US behind them, hence they would always come out victorious in every war.,.. Past military victories/glories can be a bad thing, often it makes you get too cocky, and the next thing you'll know is that you are getting azz whooped by an underrated enemy. It is a mistake almost every once Mighty army makes. For example, the French at the start of WWII, grossly underrated Hitler, because of their WWI victory over Germany, but only for Hitler to occupy the whole of France within two weeks. Do not overrate Israel and underrate it enemies, because you'll be doing so at Israel's peril!

ok maple, lets leave the debate for the D-day. after that we can continue the thread.

Fine with me Kopite. Maple would wait for your response

so maple, from your analogy, all you have succeeded in telling us is that should a war ensue, isreal will cease to exist. there will not be a nation called isreal again. thank you very much. this is certainly third world war just as putin has ordered his generals to prepare for it. am watching!!!

^^^
If you indeed understand my posts, my position is very clear.

The price of war between Israel & Iran is too high to make any future military confrontation possible. They both eventually would become the sole Nuclear Powers in the region, hence neither of them would cease to exist.

More Intellectual discussion needed on this subject, any more takers?