truthislight:

you are only taking this Ins from one side to enable you carry some of the laws of the Abrahamaic convanant into the new convanant.

As you start carrying over this old covanant laws also dont forget to carry over animal sacrifice, or you will also say that the gentiles were not doing animal sacrifice also.

Again, dont forget the sabbath law that paul said that no one should judge us in the keeping of the sabbath.

This is what trying to justify Tithing for christians does.

Try to understand the essense of my post. I wonder what is so scary about tithe which I never brought up in this discussion, why make everything about tithe?
This obsessesion those that do not tithe have is really pathetic especially when they claim to give much more.

Please let us discuss the topic.

I do not understand what you mean by the 'laws of the Abrahamic convenant', there was no law in the time of Abraham.

The scripture is simply talking about what Christ abolished that created enmity between the Jews and Gentiles. The law of commandment contained in Ordinances, things they werw specifically commanded not to do like not marrying outside the tribe of the Israelites, the circumcision, the foods they could not eat like pork, purification before eating. These are some of the ordinances.

There were specific commandments that the Israelites received (examples given above), that they held unto and saw other nations as unclean and unfit for God. They were commanded to set themselves apart from all other nations by those ordinances.

That was the enmity that Christ's coming brought to an end because Christ abolished the enmity, which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances as simply as it said.

Gentiles also did sacrifices to their gods, I have not seen anywhere in the bible that says that Jews were distinct from other nations because they were commanded to do animal sacrifices.
If you still do not get what I am saying then let's let it be o.

Pastor Kun: Even if the law was not abolished we as gentile christians have no business keeping it as the law was addressed strictly to the ancient Israelites and the Apostles made it crystal clear in the first church council(Acts 15) that THE LAW was not a part of the christian doctrine.

In addition, the Gentile Christians (where we belong) were NEVER under the law in the first place. If I wasn't under the law in the first place or from the beginning, why teach me/us NOW to obey the law or be under the law?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God. - Romans 2:14

New International Version (©1984)
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

The Bible is written to three (3) different groups but mainly two (2), namely:

1. The Jews
2. The Gentiles
3. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles).

It was ONLY the Jews the law was written to. Even to the Jews who have the law, the law had come to and End - Glory to God!

okeyxyz:

So what exactly is fornication? I believe @JoAgbaje has an insight into what the bible regards as fornication. But you, like most people who read bible colloquially, you project modern day context unto bible words, still think fornication is simply sex between unmarried people. It might be useful to you to know that one of the definitions of fornication was the use of se.x as a pagan ritual to idols.

i dont have time for this ^^^
my time is for useful discussion and not on rubbish.

Please yourself.

With this sort of understanding this forum, will continue to be a place to help people develop themselves on what the bible says.

Goshen360:

In addition, the Gentile Christians (where we belong) were NEVER under the law in the first place. If I wasn't under the law in the first place or from the beginning, why teach me/us NOW to obey the law or be under the law?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God. - Romans 2:14

New International Version (©1984)
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

The Bible is written to three (3) different groups but mainly two (2), namely:

1. The Jews
2. The Gentiles
3. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles).

It was ONLY the Jews the law was written to. Even to the Jews who have the law, the law had come to and End - Glory to God!

christianity is strictly a new covanant thing.

But we learn from principles in the OT.

And that is why the writings of the apostles covers all aspects of a christian living.

Pastor Kun: Even if the law was not abolished we as gentile christians have no business keeping it as the law was addressed strictly to the ancient Israelites and the Apostles made it crystal clear in the first church council(Acts 15) that THE LAW was not a part of the christian doctrine.

^^^
very true.

"He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." (Psalm 147:19-20).

The law was for the Jews to enable us appreciate the reason for the new covanant.

Joagbaje: Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

The verse above makes it clear that Jesus has abolished the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, given to the Jews in the Old Testament. He fulfilled them and abolished them. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament are not relevant to the new creation in Christ Jesus. It’s therefore wrong for you to live your life trying to obey the Law.

Hebrews 7:12
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Lord Jesus became our High Priest in the New Testament, not in the order of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood, but in the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:17&21). This signifies an eternal priesthood; a new priesthood, headed by Jesus Christ, different from what obtained in the Old Testament.
Now, the importance of that is this: Jesus Christ has become our High Priest, and He’s not the High Priest of the Old Testament Law; He has a new law. Remember what we read in Hebrews 7:12, that a change in priesthood automatically means a change of the Law. Since the priesthood has been changed and Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the New Testament, the law has also been changed. That’s why Jesus said in

John 13:34,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Love has replaced all the laws and ordinances of the Old Testament (Read Romans 13:8-10)

. In Matthew 22:37-40
"…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

‎​This however doesn’t mean that the Old Testament is not useful to us today.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The things written in the Old Testament have been written only for our learning; they’re not the revelations by which we live today as new creations in Christ. Now learn more of what it is to walk in love.

Damn! this cannot be Joagbaje's doing. something is seriously wrong somewhere

Goshen360: @ Snowwy,

Context is one of the key to understanding the subject of law especially when it relates to Grace. For instance, when scriptures say, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" - John 1:17. This verse didn't differentiate what kind of law it is, it was taken as a whole because the whole package of law was given by Moses. Also, when it says, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" - Romans 10:4.

If Christ or the manifestation of Christ IS THE END of the law, simply means the law had ended. If you are trying to teach Christians back to continue to obey the law (of Moses), I think you should start with the example of some hard laws in the Torah and I can give you some examples of some laws to keep. Also remember, if you break one of those laws, you are guilty of all.

Hi Goshen, long time.
Just saw this, I missed it. It is the very same context that would have been nice if you had quoted the whole Romans 2:14-15

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I noticed you only highlighted 'Gentiles which have no law' but you failed to mention that they were not given any law but they do what was in God's law. Simply the law is written in their hearts. And the bible confirms it.

Paul Himself said 'For I delight in the law of God after the inward man'.



You further quoted:

"For Christ is the end of the law FOR righteousness to everyone that believes"

Is it not obvious, Christ is the end of the law FOR righteousness for those that believe because the law will not make you righteous, CHRIST WILL. Pick the entire sentence in context. It never said Christ was the end of the law, Christ was the end of the law FOR righteousness.

You can only truly obey God's law in Christ. Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ but does all the laws is not righteous.

Romans 8:3-4

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Context, law was not abolished but was fulfilled in Christ Jesus and the only way to fulfil God's laws is to believe in Christ Jesus, for flesh cannot fulfil God's laws, only those that walk in the Spirit.

Romans 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Goshen, that is the context.

Snowwy,

Sure a long time. Sure you are good.

Very true to the fact you advocate the continuous practice of the law. I don't always like dwelling in much argument with you most time. One good thing about scripture is you can quote to establish a certain truth which am sure you know. When I quoted the "Gentiles who do not have the law" is to confirm the fact and truth that Gentiles Christians were NEVER under the law. Gentiles was included into God's redemption plan after calvary. So the Gentile Christian were NEVER under the law of Moses as it. Also, when the bible says these Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature what is in the law is the truth of doing things though in the law but by natural instinct. The law had ended my brother, we are no more under law but under Grace.

Goshen360: Snowwy,

Sure a long time. Sure you are good.

Very true to the fact you advocate the continuous practice of the law. I don't always like dwelling in much argument with you most time. One good thing about scripture is you can quote to establish a certain truth which am sure you know. When I quoted the "Gentiles who do not have the law" is to confirm the fact and truth that Gentiles Christians were NEVER under the law. Gentiles was included into God's redemption plan after calvary. So the Gentile Christian were NEVER under the law of Moses as it. Also, when the bible says these Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature what is in the law is the truth of doing things though in the law but by natural instinct. The law had ended my brother, we are no more under law but under Grace.

Goshen,
Hope the hurricane damages are being cleaned out over there.
It is well with you guys o.
No you cannot like arguing with me because I use the scriptures and you cannot argue that.

John 1:17

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ

The law was given by Moses but Jesus brought the grace to fulfil that law and understand the truth in the law. The law never ended, we just received God's help to do it through His Son. It was not trade by barter.
Jesus came with grace to suspend the consequences of not doing the law so we can understand the essence of the law and have enough time to repent that is why you see things like 'the handwriting of ordinances against us, the letter of the law etc'. That is why whoever abuses this grace will be punished.

Th bible advocates the fulfilment of the law only through Christ Jesus, and the scriptures I pasted above have said it all.
I never said we are under the law, just as you said, we are under the dispensation of grace. When people say grace it is like they don't understand what it means.

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Under the law sin had dominion over the people and that is where the law of sin and death came into play. Now we enjoy the grace of God of forgiveness of sin because we repent. Grace is no license to sin and how do we know sin, by the law, so Says Apostle Paul below.

Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet

In the OT to know if you are righteous you must do the law, in the NT Christ makes us righteous but to ensure we remain so and not sin, we need to know the law of God so saying it is abolished is not true.

That is why even the Gentiles through conscience know that law, it is not natural instinct.

But grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God’s law. This is the effective reason that we are not under the law’s guilt and condemnation.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Romans 3:31

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law

Grace is only through faith in Christ and as the scripture above said, that faith establishes the law.

The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. Simple.

Revelation 14:12.

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

This is what I have been trying to say. God's commands work hand in hand with the faith of Jesus.


It took alot of personal study for me to understand what Christ meant when He said He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it.

So Bro if you are convinced with what you believe based on the scripture and the Holy Spirit has guided you in all truth very well, stand by it and I stand by mine as the scripture speaks for itself.

truthislight:

i dont have time for this ^^^
my time is for useful discussion and not on rubbish.
Please yourself.

What exactly don't you have time for? You contributed an opinion and I replied with mine. If you think this is a discussion I'd expect you agree or disagree in a discuss-full manner, but your reply above does not conform to discussion. Or am I talking "rubbish" simply because I don't agree with you?

Joagbaje:
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

The verse above makes it clear that Jesus has abolished the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, given to the Jews in the Old Testament. He fulfilled them and abolished them. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament are not relevant to the new creation in Christ Jesus. It’s therefore wrong for you to live your life trying to obey the Law.

Hebrews 7:12
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Lord Jesus became our High Priest in the New Testament, not in the order of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood, but in the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:17&21). This signifies an eternal priesthood; a new priesthood, headed by Jesus Christ, different from what obtained in the Old Testament.
Now, the importance of that is this: Jesus Christ has become our High Priest, and He’s not the High Priest of the Old Testament Law; He has a new law. Remember what we read in Hebrews 7:12, that a change in priesthood automatically means a change of the Law. Since the priesthood has been changed and Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the New Testament, the law has also been changed. That’s why Jesus said in

John 13:34,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Love has replaced all the laws and ordinances of the Old Testament (Read Romans 13:8-10)

. In Matthew 22:37-40
"…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

‎​This however doesn’t mean that the Old Testament is not useful to us today.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The things written in the Old Testament have been written only for our learning; they’re not the revelations by which we live today as new creations in Christ. Now learn more of what it is to walk in love.

Indeed!!!

Joagbaje:
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

The verse above makes it clear that Jesus has abolished the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, given to the Jews in the Old Testament. He fulfilled them and abolished them. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament are not relevant to the new creation in Christ Jesus. It’s therefore wrong for you to live your life trying to obey the Law.

Hebrews 7:12
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Lord Jesus became our High Priest in the New Testament, not in the order of the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood, but in the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:17&21). This signifies an eternal priesthood; a new priesthood, headed by Jesus Christ, different from what obtained in the Old Testament.
Now, the importance of that is this: Jesus Christ has become our High Priest, and He’s not the High Priest of the Old Testament Law; He has a new law. Remember what we read in Hebrews 7:12, that a change in priesthood automatically means a change of the Law. Since the priesthood has been changed and Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the New Testament, the law has also been changed. That’s why Jesus said in

John 13:34,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Love has replaced all the laws and ordinances of the Old Testament (Read Romans 13:8-10)

. In Matthew 22:37-40
"…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

‎​This however doesn’t mean that the Old Testament is not useful to us today.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The things written in the Old Testament have been written only for our learning; they’re not the revelations by which we live today as new creations in Christ. Now learn more of what it is to walk in love.

this is one of the reasons we call tithe collectors 'THIEVES'.

christemmbassey:
this is one of the reasons we call tithe collectors 'THIEVES'.

Then Jesus is the person you're insulting as thief . Because he's the high priest and tithe collector.

Hebrews 7:8 (Bible in Basic English)
Now at the present time, men over whom death has power take the tenth; but then it was taken by one of whom it is witnessed that he is living.

You no abuse me today kilode? I hope all is well o.

PastorKun:


I don't need to abuse you, you have already heaped more than enough curse on your head by yourself.

Aha ! This sounds more like you.

But you should kindly Read Gen 3:5.

Joagbaje isnt tithing part of the law?

PastorKun, why is the old testament still part of the bible?

Both of you, did Jesus not say not a jot or tittle will pass from the law (and that he did not come to destroy the law)?

Pastor Joagbaje,
You are good people

Well done I have shared Acts 15 with religion. With no reply.

PastorKun:


It is in the bible so that we can understand were we are coming from, Christian doctrine should be strictly from the new testament. We are under a new covenant birthed by Jesus Christ. Also you would notice that Laws in the old testament were directed strictly at the Israelites. Christianity never adopted those Laws in fact it was stated clearly in Acts 15 that old testament Laws are not meant for Christians.

Joagbaje:
Ephesians 2:15
The verse above makes it clear that Jesus has abolished the law of commandments, contained in ordinances, given to the Jews in the Old Testament. He fulfilled them and abolished them. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament are not relevant to the new creation in Christ Jesus. It’s therefore wrong for you to live your life trying to obey the Law.

Yes Jesus fulfilled the law but believers in Christ Jesus are required to walk in the Spirit...so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us too.(Romans 8:1,4). Furthermore, Galatians 5:24,23,22 show us that walking in The Spirit entails crucifying (not indulging) the flesh and manifesting the character of Christ, not just speaking in tongues. while Gal 5.19-21 reveals that if we live a life that does not fulfil the law (by walking in the flesh) as it was in Christ, we will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[color=#990000]John 13:34,
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

Love has replaced all the laws and ordinances of the Old Testament (Read Romans 13:8-10)

Love did not replace but rather it is the fulfilling of the law Romans 13:10.Love here is the one described in Gal. 5:22-24 & Ephesians 5:2-6 &1 Corinthians 13

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The things written in the Old Testament have been written only for our learning; they’re not the revelations by which we live today as new creations in Christ. Now learn more of what it is to walk in love.

2Timothy 3:16,"All Scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,for correction, for instruction in righteousness" corrects this view.
If you consider the Sermon on the Mount and the Command to Disciples (Matthew 10:37 - 38, Matthew 16:24), and the Epistles of the apostles you will realise that God never intended to make us Antinomians after Christ's redemptive work!

The truth will set you free..

Snowwy:


@Joagbaje,
Your topic title and scripture do not seem to match.
Your opening scripture clearly states that Christ has abolished in His flesh the enmity, which is the:

'law of commandments CONTAINED in ordinances'

I would have assumed you would have explained what the enmity is and examples of such ordinances which caused the enmity.
I would like to read more on this from you, possibly you still have more to add.
There is actually a lot of history in that verse as Christ made in himself of two, one new man and made peace. Peace between who? Lots of questions to be answered to do justice to the OP scripture.

Joagbaje:


Then Jesus is the person you're insulting as thief . Because he's the high priest and tithe collector.

Hebrews 7:8 (Bible in Basic English)
Now at the present time, men over whom death has power take the tenth; but then it was taken by one of whom it is witnessed that he is living.

In the OT, God owned tithe, but that vers 8 says men collected it. But it says it was men that dies that collected tithe.

Are you saying that men that dies should still collect tithe today in this dispensation?

Take note, tithe belonged to God in the OT. That is, God collected tithe since it belonged to him. But still, the scriptures says "men collected it".