Arithmetical conundrum

Luke 24 v 33; and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together and them that were with them

1. Which eleven?

2. Did they include themselves in the numbers they find?

Even if they do, the disciples there (of the elected 12 of Jesus) could never be more than 10 altogether because on this visit of Jesus to that upper room, Judas and Thomas were definitely not present.

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.

3. Which twelve?

The word ‘then’ excludes Peter. Even if you add him, you will never get the twelve because the traitor Judas had committed suicide before the alleged resurrection!

Thanks

By God's grace this is no conundrum but a concerted attempt to read a puzzle where there is none.

babs787:

Arithmetical conundrum

Luke 24 v 33; and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together and them that were with them

1. Which eleven?

2. Did they include themselves in the numbers they find?

Even if they do, the disciples there (of the elected 12 of Jesus) could never be more than 10 altogether because on this visit of Jesus to that upper room, Judas and Thomas were definitely not present.

You quote Luke 24:33 BUT your actual reference is in John 20 (the chapter that mentions thomas' absence when Christ first appeared to the disciples.
John 20 indicates clearly that Christ appeared to the 11 TWICE:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Verse 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Note that verse 19 talks about the first meeting where Thomas was absent. But verse 26 records that there was yet again another encounter with the disciples in a room where Thomas was present and would have been counted among the 11 disciples.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Obviously Luke 24 records only the second and what was to be the final meeting with His disciples before His ascension.
Please note also that there were more than 12 "disciples". There were many others who were also called "disciples" but were not numbered among the 12. There was a time he sent out 70 "disciples", certainly many of these were with the 11 apostles.

babs787:

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.
3. Which twelve?

The word ‘then’ excludes Peter. Even if you add him, you will never get the twelve because the traitor Judas had committed suicide before the alleged resurrection!

I will start from the second question: the word "then" in no way excludes Peter . . . it merely says that Peter was the first to see Jesus Christ, He later appeared to all the disciples at once.

Back to your first question: i did mention earlier that there were a lot more than 12 disciples for those who have paid a lot closer attention to the gospels. There were 12 who were more prominent but there were certainly others who were in the background.
Paul mentions that Christ was seen of the 12 apostles before His resurrection . . . remember that Mathias was chosen to replace Judas after the ascension of Jesus Christ and thus became the 12th apostle.

Paul definitely counted Mathias among the 12 . . . Mathias clearly was one of the over 500 disciples who also saw Jesus before He ascended up into heaven as it is unlikely that the apostles would have chosen a complete outsider to replace Judas. Clearly Mathias had walked closely with the apostles and had known Jesus Christ personally.

In that context Paul's statement in I Cor 15:5 then becomes clear . . . he was already counting Mathias among the 12 disciples who saw Christ.

Hope this helps.

There is a bigger conundrum for you to worry about:

God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = One God.


Yet another big one->

God the Son + the Body of Christ + the Soul of Christ = One Christ



And a smaller one here ->

The body of babs787 + The soul of babs787 = One babs787

lol

@ poster, the bible cannot be derided, if you want to solve any puzzle, get ur hands on the original manuscripts and seek their translatin.

Why do you guys just copy and paste stuff which are untrue and try to make it real? Y' all claim to have read the Bible, but none of you have studied it, to understand a single verse in it.
Verily verily I say unto you, "if you concentrate on making yourself a better human, you will discover many truths, Christ inclusive". God never lies. The Bible is His word, written by men of God by inspiration. Hence, the Bible never lies.
***You can never break the Bible. It will break you instead if you try such folly.

yeah millena, dats d stuff, some guys just lend their brains to the devil

@ Millena

Why do you guys just copy and paste stuff which are untrue and try to make it real? Y' all claim to have read the Bible, but none of you have studied it, to understand a single verse in it.
Verily verily I say unto you, "if you concentrate on making yourself a better human, you will discover many truths, Christ inclusive". God never lies. The Bible is His word, written by men of God by inspiration. Hence, the Bible never lies.
***You can never break the Bible. It will break you instead if you try such folly

Dont be hard on urself, its true that God doesnt lie but men can make mistakes because the bible is a collection of books written by men so dis might just be one of the many arithmetric conudrum caused by men of men founnd in the bible.

router:

@ Millena

Dont be hard on yourself, its true that God doesnt lie but men can make mistakes because the bible is a collection of books written by men so this might just be one of the many arithmetric conudrum caused by men of men founnd in the bible.

If you were interested in the truth (as most muslims usually arent) you shld have seen the very second post on this thread that addressed babs787's alleged conundrum.

babs787:

Arithmetical conundrum

Luke 24 v 33; and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together and them that were with them

1. Which eleven?

2. Did they include themselves in the numbers they find?

Even if they do, the disciples there (of the elected 12 of Jesus) could never be more than 10 altogether because on this visit of Jesus to that upper room, Judas and Thomas were definitely not present.

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.

3. Which twelve?

The word ‘then’ excludes Peter. Even if you add him, you will never get the twelve because the traitor Judas had committed suicide before the alleged resurrection!

Thanks

My dear, take time and read the Bible, 4Him already gave you an excellent answer,I'll just take you back to Luke 6,before the event you reported in Luke 24.
Our God is orderly and is not an author of confusion.

Please read this.



Luk 6:12 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.


Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Luk 6:14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,


Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,


Luk 6:16 And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.


so honey,Christ had a whole bunch of disciples including women but 12 apostles, sort of like an inner circle.

and just because you like translations @ babs,take your pick.

[b]KJV And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
King James Version 1611, 1769


NKJV - Luk 6:13 - And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson


NLT - Luk 6:13 - At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and chose twelve of them to be apostles. Here are their names:
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust


NIV - Luk 6:13 - When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:

New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society


ESV - Luk 6:13 - And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles


NASB - Luk 6:13 - And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation


RSV - Luk 6:13 - And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.


ASV - Luk 6:13 - And when it was day, he called his disciples; and he chose from them twelve, whom also he named apostles:
American Standard Version 1901 Info


Young - Luk 6:13 - and when it became day, he called near his disciples, and having chosen from them twelve, whom also he named apostles,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info


Darby - Luk 6:13 - And when it was day he called his disciples, and having chosen out twelve from them, whom also he named apostles:
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info


Webster - Luk 6:13 - And when it was day, he called [to him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named Apostles;
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info


HNV - Luk 6:13 - When it was day, he called his talmidim, and from them he chose twelve, whom he also named apostles:
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info


Vulgate - Luk 6:13 - et cum dies factus esset vocavit discipulos suos et elegit duodecim ex ipsis quos et apostolos nominavit
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info
[/b]

@+Osisi: All you do is just give versions, in English. Give one in Igbo for a change. Afterall, neither Igbo, nor Oyinbo is the language of inspiration of the Bible writers. Too many cooks spoil the broth! Too many writers spoil the master piece, the best seller of all time, the novel! lol/rofl. You inspire me, like the way the bible writers were inspired; there emotion and demeanor changing as they face this audience or that audience, trying to satisfy the needs of each!

Your prayer goes to you first, if you are wrong!

@his_grace

I think you are very very close to hell already by calling everybody fools The Bible warns us against calling one fool.

Repent and the Good Lord may have mercy on you.

@davidylan

I intentionally waited for christian apologists to fumble before responding and they did just that and I even read Babyosis' post going the other way and praising his brother's dishonesty.

Let me attend to your post now:

By God's grace this is no conundrum but a concerted attempt to read a puzzle where there is none.

Okay, let us read through

You quote Luke 24:33 BUT your actual reference is in John 20 (the chapter that mentions thomas' absence when Christ first appeared to the disciples.
John 20 indicates clearly that Christ appeared to the 11 TWICE:

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Verse 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Note that verse 19 talks about the first meeting where Thomas was absent. But verse 26 records that there was yet again another encounter with the disciples in a room where Thomas was present and would have been counted among the 11 disciples.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Obviously Luke 24 records only the second and what was to be the final meeting with His disciples before His ascension.
Please note also that there were more than 12 "disciples". There were many others who were also called "disciples" but were not numbered among the 12. There was a time he sent out 70 "disciples", certainly many of these were with the 11 apostles.

Brother read below:

Luke 24 v 33; and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together and them that were with them.

Why trying to cover the fraud that has been exposed? I gave you the verses from the gospel of John and you goofed by giving me that of John.

You claimed that Luke recorded the second meeting. Ok, let us take it like that in order to get to where we are going.

The Luke I quoted above showed that they referred to the 12 disciples of Jesus hence the mentioning of eleven. There was no mention of another '70' disciples and even if we are to assume another 70 disciples, it just did not tally up with that figure.

Now, let us be straight forward in our post:

1. Who rose up at the early hour?

2. Who are the eleven disciples mentioned therein.

Note that the 70 you are trying to include has no bearing therein. I even have another pictorial bible having eleven people that are supposed to be his disciples but no traces of the 70 you tried smuggling in.
Your last post even showed that 12 disciples were recognised and are called disciples and if that happens, how come we arrive at eleven rather than smuggling in another 70 disciples.

So help yourself out.

I will start from the second question: the word "then" in no way excludes Peter . . . it merely says that Peter was the first to see Jesus Christ, He later appeared to all the disciples at once.

Brother why do like deceiving yourself, covering truth with falsehood? The verse I gave you is a very straight forward one.

Let us view the verse again:

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.

Paul made it known to us that Jesus first saw Peter and then the twelve, meaning that he first saw Peter and later saw the twelve, so which twelve was he referring to here?



B

ack to your first question: i did mention earlier that there were a lot more than 12 disciples for those who have paid a lot closer attention to the gospels. There were 12 who were more prominent but there were certainly others who were in the background.
Paul mentions that Christ was seen of the 12 apostles before His resurrection . . . remember that Mathias was chosen to replace Judas after the ascension of Jesus Christ and thus became the 12th apostle.

I thought you claimed that the 70 disciples were not numbered among the 12.
Now let me put your brain to test: Can I have the verse where Jesus appointed Mathias to replace Jesus?
Was the appointment made before the verse that says that Jesus appeared to Peter and then the eleven?

Read again:

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.

If mathias was included, how come they are still 12 when Peter was not included and can I have the verse where he appointed him?

Paul definitely counted Mathias among the 12 . . . Mathias clearly was one of the over 500 disciples who also saw Jesus before He ascended up into heaven as it is unlikely that the apostles would have chosen a complete outsider to replace Judas. Clearly Mathias had walked closely with the apostles and had known Jesus Christ personally.

Let us take it one at a time, if Mathias was included, how come they are still 12 when Peter was first seen, then the twelve. Can they be up to 12 with the exclusion of Peter?

In that context Paul's statement in I Cor 15:5 then becomes clear . . . he was already counting Mathias among the 12 disciples who saw Christ.

Read my questions above and that will help in answering your above post.

Hope this helps.

It didnt at all because I read lies in that post.

@Milenna

Point of correction, Babs has bible versions with him and gives you verses from same because it is what you believe in.He was like you for years before his journey to Islam.





@Babyosis

Pasting different versions is not helping you at all but further exposing you.

Luk 6:12 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.


Luk 6:13  And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Luk 6:14  Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,


Luk 6:15  Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,


Luk 6:16  And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.


so honey,Christ had a whole bunch of disciples including women but 12 apostles, sort of like an inner circle.

Now please, Do we have one or more than one Judas among the 12 disciples of Jesus?
When you do, I will give you another list of twelve disciples different from those listed above in the gospel of Luke.

A thread on the authorship of the four gospels will be out soon.

Thanks

babs the issue is you are a very dishonest person and wouldn't recognise truth even it spoke Yoruba and bit you in the butt.

These were your first 2  questions.

Arithmetical conundrum

Luke 24 v 33; and they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven gathered together and them that were with them

1. Which eleven?

2. Did they include themselves in the numbers they find?

Now anyone reading the above knows the writer is of the opinion that Jesus had 12 disciples,which we know is false,he had many disciples and 12 apostles as shown in the reference I gave you from an earlier vers,for clarity here it is again

KJV And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
King James Version 1611, 1769

so your first ignorance is exposed  but since you love to blow your own trumpets,you gloss over it and latch unto something else [/color][color=#990000]as usual.

Now read the whole of Luke 23 and luke 24,the they in that verse you lifted referred to some men and women and peter.
Yes Christ appeared to Peter and co on the way and to prove that Mattias was then amongst the apostles see this scripture.


"

So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that The Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when He was taken up from us - one of these men must become with us a witness to His resurrection."

"And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "Lord, Who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two Thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:12-26 RSV)

Your questions and arguments sound so childish.

babs wrote

Brother why do like deceiving yourself, covering truth with falsehood? The verse I gave you is a very straight forward one.

Let us view the verse again:

Also Paul said that after the days, Jesus was seen of Cephas (Simon Peter) then to the twelve.

Paul made it known to us that Jesus first saw Peter and then the twelve, meaning that he first saw Peter and later saw the twelve, so which twelve was he referring to here?

does it need any explaining if one told you Christ appeared to Peter and then to the 12.
Is it impossible for you to comprehend that at the second time Peter was included?

Assuming you,olabs and hafees were my disciples and someone reported that
+osisi came to babs and then came to the three.
Who are the 3 referenced?
do you need a soothsayer to tell you babs saw me twice.

babs787:

@Milenna

Point of correction, Babs has bible versions with him and gives you verses from same because it is what you believe in.He was like you for years before his journey to Islam.





@Babyosis

Pasting different versions is not helping you at all but further exposing you.


Now please, Do we have one or more than one Judas among the 12 disciples of Jesus?
When you do, I will give you another list of twelve disciples different from those listed above in the gospel of Luke.
A thread on the authorship of the four gospels will be out soon.

Thanks

You keep showing up your ignorance.
Yes there were 2 Judases amongst the 12.

1. There was Judas the brother of James,whose father was also named James,He is also known as Thaddeus.

2.Simon the cannenite is also referred to as simon the zealot

3. Bartholomew is also called Nathaniel.

4. Christ had as his apostles 2 Judases,2 simons and 2 Jameses and others.

5.Matthias replaced Judas iscariot after the others cast a lot as I shoed earlier.

You see how your ignorance knows no bounds.

The twelve
Main article: Twelve Apostles
Most of the attention in the gospels is given to a specific group of disciples called by Jesus on the top of a mountain and commissioned by him as the Twelve Apostles. These men are:

Simon, called peter

Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter

James (called the son of Zebedee by Mark and Matthew)

John (Mark and Matthew identify him as the brother of James, son of Zebedee)

Philip

Bartholomew, named Nathanael in John

Matthew (whom the Matthew evangelist identifies as a publican), named Levi in Luke
and Mark

Thomas

James, son of Alphaeus

Simon, called a zealot in Mark, Matthew, and Luke

Judas Iscariot

Jude Thaddaeus, called Thaddaeus by Mark, Lebbaeus Thaddaeus by Matthew, and Judas of James by Luke

@poster
One mistake people make is read stuff out of context. Did u read the previous verses preceding the one u quoted? Now it is obvious from the preceding verses dat the 2 who where the subjects of the report where not of the '12 chosen disciples' but where probably among the larger group of followers.