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Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by therationa(m): 12:14am On Feb 19, 2008 |
The Jesus Mysteries (TJM)hypothesis has been around for more than two centuries. Essentially, it posits that the central tenets of the Christian tradition were copied from the Pagan Mysteries of the era (of which there were many - Mithras, Iris, Osiris-Dionysus, etc) and that there never was a REAL human character called Jesus. Since Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy published their popular book, Jesus Mysteries, a number of other historians (professional and amateur) have started investigating the history of Christianity from a purely mythological perspective (Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty, Robert M. Price, R. G. Price). The central tenets of TJM was that Christianity developed from the cocktail of mystical religions of the 3rd century BCE to the 2-3 century CE. These religions deified a central figure who lived in the allegorical (mythical) world, rather than a real flesh and blood individual. The Gnostics were an example of such religion, in that there did not believe that Jesus was a flesh and blood individual, but rather appeared to be flesh and blood ( docetism). Gnostic belief cause a lot of trouble for early Christian doctrine, in that if Jesus was never flesh and blood, then it could never be said that he suffered for mankind. With the ascendency of orthodoxy Christianity, Gnosticism was persecuted out of the existence by the early Christian church. Ironically, to counter Gnostic doctrine, early church fathers were motivated to interpolate existing gospels and pauline epistles inserting anti-gnostic material. Freke and Gandy postulate that the apostle Paul may indeed have been Gnostic and with orthodoxy winning the battle for supremacy, orthodoxy adapted Paul's message to fit their doctrine. Their case for this thesis is the notion that nowhere does Paul, in any of his surviving works, show an intimate knowledge of the man Jesus, in flesh and blood. That there are Gnostic ideas in the NT is also supported by a number of NT scholars today, notably Robert M. Price, Elaine Pagel. However, this is still a new area of research. Gnosticism was clearly one of the mystical forms of religions of the early first millenium, deriving most of its character from the other mystical tradition of the region. Within a few decades of the establishment of orthodoxy Christianity, its similarity to the Pagan cults of the day did not fail to be noticed by some of its critics, the most famous of whom was Celsus( c. 170 CE.), a philosopher and satirist. The similarity between Christianity and the Pagan Mysteries (Osirus-Dionysus, Horus, Mythras, Iris etc) so disturbed some of the early Christian fathers, such as Justin Martyr (100 -165 CE), that some of them have to resort to the most bizarre of reason to explain the similarity to the Pagan cults. This is what Celsus had to say about early Christianity; "Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christiains - and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths ans theirs believed? What reasons do the Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believes, except that the believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God". The 2nd century Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, on being countered that Christianity had borrowed all its basic features from the existing cults of the Greco-Egyptico-Romano-Persion world, this is what he had to say; "Having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come and that the ungodly amongst men were to be punished by fire, the wicked spirit put forth many to be called Sons of God, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things that were said with regards to Christ were merely marvellous tales, like the things that were said by the poets". The father Tertullian also used the diabolical mimicry excuse to explain the close similarity between Christianity and the pre-existing cults at the time. This is Tertullian; "The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness o fsins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, andbrings in the symbol of resurrection. Let u stherefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who caopies certain things of those that be Divine". Essentially, these early Christian apologist were saying "So what, our religions looks similar to your religions, but we did not copy from you. The devil mimicked our religion in your religion in anticipation of the advent of our religion". This was the standard excuse given then by the apologist, which has not changed in 2000 years of the evolution of Christianity. Is it not obvious how desperate the Christians had to go to explain away their wholesale copying of the cults of the Roman world and dressing them up as unique and their own. WHO ARE THE REAL PLAGIARIST? References The Jesus Mysteries, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy The Jesus Puzzle, Earl Doherty The Incredibly Shrinking Son of Man, Robert M Price The Jesus Legend, G. A. Wells Misquoting Jesus, Bart Erhman Lost Christianities, Bart Erhman Jesus - A very Jewish Myth, R. G. Price The Pagan Christ, Tom Hapur Jesus For the Non-religious, Bishop John Spelby Spong http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b3a47345f84.htm ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? 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The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by 4Him(m): 12:35am On Feb 19, 2008 |
therationalist . . . can you prove to us that Jesus Christ never existed in history? That should be the starting point of ur pointless ramblings, seriously. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by therationa(m): 4:27pm On Feb 19, 2008 |
4Him: I can't prove he did not exist (for reasons you already know), but at least I would expect the stories told of him to be consistent and coherent. Am afraid, that standard is not met in his case. For a god, this is a terrible indictment. Could he not have ensured that his message remained "cast in stone" as it were for all eternity, never to be conflated with other gods. What is the point of making himself so hard to be believed? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by LordReed(m): 9:02am On Feb 29, 2008 |
The inconsistencies in the accounts/stories of Jesus stem from the fact that the methods for report events were not much developed as we have them now. Mouth to mouth passage of the stories was bound to introduce several distortions as we humans can never tell a story word for word as we heard it. Written accounts where not mass printed but copied from one manuscript to another by hand when the manuscripts were found to be getting old or damaged. This was also bound to introduce distortion as well as the fact that they were sometimes translated from one language to another with the consequence that there was bound to be some transaliteration utilised one can see where errors could creep in. The point am trying to make is we make not have the full true accounts but doesnt mean events did not occur or the persons involved did not exist. U therationa are quick to point out the barbaric acts recorded in the bible as evidence; why believe some part n still discredit the same book? I want to believe that the fact that there are similarities in alot of religions that it provides an evidence that we may not be mistaken to accept belief in the supernatural. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by Nobody: 9:06am On Feb 29, 2008 |
therationa:@therationa A good scholar like you should be able to prove that Jesus did not exist. If you cannot disprove his existence, then remain quiet, before you wreck you scholarly reputation-----which is bad shape anyway. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by Reptyle(m): 11:05am On Feb 29, 2008 |
I don't need to know the details of the day to day life of Jesus. The essentials have been captured in the Bible and that is good enough for me. The truth is that even if I die today and realize that Heaven and Hell do not exist and Jesus isn't what he claims to be, I'll still be happy I lived my life as a christian. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by therationa(m): 12:04pm On Feb 29, 2008 |
Reptyle: The fact is the "essentials" are very much in doubt. How can you build a belief system on a base of doubt and forgery and falsehood. Truth trumps all of this for me every single time. Our civilization has development a systematic methodology for investigating the nature of reality and it has produced tremendous benefits to humankind in the last 300 years. When this methodology is turned to investigate the claims of the bronze age superstitions we inherited, we find very little worthy of truth. There is an alternative to superstition; it is called naturalism or metaphysical naturalism. This system of belief is founded on the scientific method, amongst other well attested philosophies. You do not need to resort to superstitions - think of all the time you have wasted when such time and effort could have been better spent more progressive endeavours. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by LordReed(m): 2:37pm On Feb 29, 2008 |
therationa: So is this wat u subscribe to? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by therationa(m): 2:41pm On Feb 29, 2008 |
why don't you check it out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_naturalism |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by LordReed(m): 4:12pm On Feb 29, 2008 |
Hmmm interesting so far, |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 4:16pm On May 28, 2008 |
any thoughts? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 11:59am On May 31, 2008 |
Would be interesting to see what students of the history of christianity make of this one! |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by PastorAIO: 12:52pm On Jun 01, 2008 |
What constitutes proof? Evidence? Is seeing really believing? What about the possible of illusion? Would seeing be proof in that case? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 12:52pm On Jun 02, 2008 |
Platinorm: In what sense is this an insult to Christians? Are you affirming that it is an insult because they plagiarised their early theology from the local pagan myths and cults around. Or do you mean that to criticise Christianity is an insult to Christians? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 2:59pm On Oct 04, 2008 |
I wonder whether any members have got any thoughts on this question. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 12:27am On Oct 26, 2008 |
Check out this for the origin of Christianity |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by huxley(m): 2:25pm On Oct 27, 2008 |
pilgrim.1: Did you mean ad infinitum or ad hominen? The fact is, we want to look at the substance of the charge. How does Freke&Gandy misquoting Tertullian refute the charge of plagiarism? Is ther evidence in the correct version of Tertullian's quote that he was concerned about the similarities between Christianity and the pagan cults? pilgrim.1: I have said, let us grant that the quote from Freke and Gandy is wrong. Can we look at the version you presented (is that is the genuine one) to glean any charges of plagiarism. I submit that we can. Now that is the issue. We are NOT debating whether Freke&Gandy got the quote wrong, much as you would like to to derail the thread. If you have difficulties understand this concept, let me put it in another context. Supposing, while browsing through some text in the library, I had stumbled upon the genuine text from Tertullian. Can I infer from that text that Tertullian was concerned about similarities between Christianity and pagan cults of the day? If you want me to start another thread to debate the Intellectual honesty of Freke and Gandy, I can do that. |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by PastorAIO: 7:18pm On Oct 28, 2008 |
If the French language has a word for a structure called a coline which is a projection upwards from the earth . . . And we also find that the English language has a word for a structure called a hill . . . . and in that there is also a word in the yoruba language called Oke . . . . Who can we conclude stole the idea from whom? |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by Ogaga4Luv(m): 11:24am On Nov 18, 2010 |
[size=13pt]Because of being steeped in, believing, and living a lie, in the the advanced stages of Christianity, the Christian takes on an artificial appearance and begins to look like the lie: The well-known pasty look with the smiley mask. The lie emerges in the physical self. The following respond provide proof that everything in the Christian religion and in the bible has been STOLEN from other religions that predated it from all around the world. Christianity is a tool for removing spiritual/occult knowledge from the populace so this power can be kept in the hands of a few to manipulate and enslave the masses. To really understand the Bible and see the truth, one must be very well educated in the occult. The mass mind is very powerful. When one studies long enough and acquires advanced knowledge of the occult, the truth is utterly shocking. The entire Judeo/Christian Bible is a hoax of catastrophic proportions with a very clear objective using subliminal means and the channeled psychic energy of believers. Whenever Christianity or its cohorts took control of a country or region, the ancient spiritual texts and records were removed and/or destroyed and those who had spiritual knowledge were mass murdered by the Inquisition. This took out of circulation the very knowledge those in power have used and still use to manipulate the ignorant population using spiritual/occult power. The Bible is one of the most powerful subliminal tools used by a select few to enslave the masses. Most people are unaware of this because they lack knowledge regarding the occult, thought power, and psychic energy. The powers that be work to reinforce the belief that the occult, powers of the mind and spirit are nonsense or just plain bunk. Destroying the ancient records allowed an alternative invented "history" to be written which has disconnected humanity from its true origins. Controlling history is important because if one manipulates how people see what we call the past, this influences the present and the future. The entire Bible is an extremely powerful subliminal tool full of occult numbers, messages, allegories, and stolen material, which has been corrupted from ancient religions. In addition, this book has been infused with psychic energy and power to instill fear and to make it believable . When one's eyes are opened and one has the necessary knowledge, the *spell* will no longer be effective . The entire underlying theme of the Judeo/Christian Bible is the establishment of the fictitious history of the Jewish people in the mass mind. What the mass mind believes has power and the energy to make manifest in reality as thoughts are energy There are vacuum-sealed vaults in the Vatican library containing thousands upon thousands of ancient esoteric books from around the world that have been stolen and hoarded over the years and kept out of public circulation. The Catholic Church, which is the root of the Christian religion, is controlled by a secret society that has abused occult power to enslave the masses. The end goal is the total enslavement of humanity, which they have worked towards relentlessly and ruthlessly. All of this has directly affected each and every one of us. Humanity has suffered unnecessarily because of the denial of this knowledge. People have been coerced over the centuries into paying for their own damnation to the tune of billions and billions of currencies to keep this lie prospering and continuing strong. The survival and prosperity of this vicious hoax on humanity requires only ONE thing- A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE! [/size] 1 Like |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by Hitmanso: 10:15am On Jan 22, 2023 |
4Him: The bible itself gives enough evidence that Jesus didn't exist. Matthew says Jesus was born around 6BC while Luke says around 4AD. Why did they contradict themselves if Jesus was born? There are hundreds of claims of each gospel writer that contradicted themselves. The Jews have insisted that Jesus didn't fulfill any single messianic prophecy in their holy book. That christians manipulated their bible deliberately to support their fictional Jesus. They challenge any christian to pick up their Hebrew bible n compare to what christians hv translated |
Re: Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by Hitmanso: 8:03pm On Apr 23, 2023 |
The bible itself disproved his existence. The early church fathers knew Jesus wasn't real but a duplicate of earlier mystic gods |
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