It's gonna be interesting.

#Thread activated

E be like say una dey afraid for this topic huh.

^You spread the tablecloth, laid out the dinnerplates, lined up the silverware...

but you didn't put any food on the table

Start off the thread with something now...

^ Okay. Honestly I don't really know how to start this particular teaching/topic but it has been on my mind for a while so I decided to make it open and participatory. Okay. Let me start with a scripture from the Gospel.

New International Version (©1984)
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." - Luke 19:8-10

This is one of the scriptures used by those who teach restitution for Christians. What say ye of this scriptures?

hmmmm, saddening questions.

^ Welcome on board bro.

Which one be Sadducee saddening question again. I left it open as a discussion and now na saddening kweshion. Na you sabi o. Abeg contribute joor. Is restitution for the church or part of old testament And please remember to answer with scripture...that's our standard.

no comments, sorry my friend.

Interesting topic and i will like to contribute to it when i find time enough to do so. Lets keep it up because its very important in our heavenly race. Make i sleep first. Time don go o.

Goshen360: ^ Okay. Honestly I don't really know how to start this particular teaching/topic but it has been on my mind for a while so I decided to make it open and participatory. Okay. Let me start with a scripture from the Gospel.

New International Version (©1984)
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." - Luke 19:8-10

This is one of the scriptures used by those who teach restitution for Christians. What say ye of this scriptures?

If we examine the verse quoted above,you'll notice he wasn't prompted by the lord but he willingly activated the law of Moses because he was a Jew keeping the law of Moses.Jesus said salvation is come to this house because this man was a son of Abraham not because of the restitution which he did.

Acts 15 talks about the Jerusalem council.i wont quote all the verses here,pls read up the entire chapter yourself but see verse 10 which goes thus ''Now therefore why tempt ye God,to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?'' this was in response to the requirement that gentile Christians which includes you and i, must observe all the laws in the torah.If Apostle Peter called the law a yoke why pick out a part of it(ignoring other equally important parts) and ask Christians to observe it or be damned? Let the spirit of God lead us as Romans 8:14 shows.

I ask honestly for someone to show me a verse expressly where Christ asked for it to be done or even a place in the all the new testament where it was raised.

We should really allow the Spirit to lead us.That is the only way we can enjoy the liberty for which Jesus died and resurrected.

God bless us all

Candour:

If we examine the verse quoted above,you'll notice he wasn't prompted by the lord but he willingly activated the law of Moses because he was a Jew keeping the law of Moses.Jesus said salvation is come to this house because this man was a son of Abraham not because of the restitution which he did.

Acts 15 talks about the Jerusalem council.i wont quote all the verses here,pls read up the entire chapter yourself but see verse 10 which goes thus ''Now therefore why tempt ye God,to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?'' this was in response to the requirement that gentile Christians which includes you and i, must observe all the laws in the torah.If Apostle Peter called the law a yoke why pick out a part of it(ignoring other equally important parts) and ask Christians to observe it or be damned? Let the spirit of God lead us as Romans 8:14 shows.

I ask honestly for someone to show me a verse expressly where Christ asked for it to be done or even a place in the all the new testament where it was raised.

We should really allow the Spirit to lead us.That is the only way we can enjoy the liberty for which Jesus died and resurrected.

God bless us all

THREAD CLOSED!

Though I believe in restitution to a certain extent, in deeperlife it went too far.

I remember the case of a brother who had no inner peace because he had stolen a biro almost 15 years earlier when in secondary school, and he had to go back and return it in the form of a new one.

There were also other extreme cases in deeperlife where couples who had married for the second time while in sin , had to either return to their spouse from an earlier marriage or remain unmarried after becoming born again , even though the second marriages had produced children. In my opinion this is wrong and causes mayhem.

We should not bring anyone under condemnation here , but follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Problem is MEN set the yardstick for what restitution is , and suddenly we are pleasing MEN and not GOD and causing more hurt and injury to others.

In my opinion, these are the restitutions we should carry out :

1. Return any stolen property in our possession if we know where the owners are .
2. Pay off our bills and debts within reason and over a period we can afford.
3. If you have any enemies or people who you have hurt or vice versa , seek for reconciliation ONLY as the Spirit leads.
4. If you have defrauded anyone in any other way not mentioned, get it right as soon as you can .


I have to keep emphasising 'as the spirit leads' , because I was once brought under relentless condemnation because of this concept in the deeperlife church.


Just my small opinion.

Candour:

If we examine the verse quoted above,you'll notice he wasn't prompted by the lord but he willingly activated the law of Moses because he was a Jew keeping the law of Moses.Jesus said salvation is come to this house because this man was a son of Abraham not because of the restitution which he did.

Acts 15 talks about the Jerusalem council.i wont quote all the verses here,pls read up the entire chapter yourself but see verse 10 which goes thus ''Now therefore why tempt ye God,to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?'' this was in response to the requirement that gentile Christians which includes you and i, must observe all the laws in the torah.If Apostle Peter called the law a yoke why pick out a part of it(ignoring other equally important parts) and ask Christians to observe it or be damned? Let the spirit of God lead us as Romans 8:14 shows.

I ask honestly for someone to show me a verse expressly where Christ asked for it to be done or even a place in the all the new testament where it was raised.

We should really allow the Spirit to lead us.That is the only way we can enjoy the liberty for which Jesus died and resurrected.

God bless us all

As the Spirit leads indeed, but we cannot hold unto stolen property and refuse to return them or we cannot owe debts and refuse to pay back or we cannot defraud someone and refuse to make it right.

Getting these things right is actually part and parcel of our testimony , that could potentially attract them to Jesus Christ.

frosbel:

As the Spirit leads indeed, but we cannot hold unto stolen property and refuse to return them or we cannot owe debts and refuse to pay back or we cannot defraud someone and refuse to make it right.

Getting these things right is actually part and parcel of our testimony , that could potentially attract them to Jesus Christ.

@frosbel, i didn't want to take up space with expatiating my point but you got the gist.If the spirit directs you to do it,you might even win a soul in the process because returning stolen goods to the owner who isn't a christian would sure make him want to hear what came over you in the process learning about the work done on the cross.However destroying the lives of 5 children because their mom had to leave their father after 20 years of marriage by the leading of their pastor is very cruel i think.Like you mentioned your own experience,i've seen it happen and bros,it wasn't nice.

@Bella3, pls don't instigate thread closure lest you be tagged a dictator

Good morning Mr. Goshen,

I am happy that this topic saw the light of day but, like you, I am also at a loss for words because restitution is one of the least understood but very important scriptural teachings. For some persons, restitution is the act of restoring to a rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost or surrendered; but for me I hold the view that restitution is simply put: Faith in action!

Though some Christians are of the opinion that Christians are not subject to the laws of the old testament with good reasons but I believe that some laws of the old testament made their way to the new testament whilst becoming part of the principles Christians are expected to live by.

In Exodus 22: 1-4

“If someone steals a cow or a sheep and kills it or sells it, he must pay five cows for one cow and four sheep for one sheep. 2-4 He must pay for what he stole. If he owns nothing, he shall be sold as a slave to pay for what he has stolen. If the stolen animal, whether a cow, a donkey, or a sheep, is found alive in his possession, he shall pay two for one.

“If a thief is caught breaking into a house at night and is killed, the one who killed him is not guilty of murder. But if it happens during the day, he is guilty of murder.

it is quite clear that restitution was a key element in the lives of the people of Israel at the time and I believe that this became a key principle of Christianity. Though restitution is not explicitly stated in the new testament but we should understand that this, like ma.sturbation, is implied in the teachings of Christ in the new testament.

Every Christian is bound by the command to love. No Christian can make heaven if he or she cannot afford to show love to God and neighbour. Restitution is part of the act of love we show to our neighbour. The death of Christ though liberating, is not cheap and God cannot be made a fool of. There are those who would say: "Let me steal as much as I can, then repent and keep the loot for myself". This is never the way of God! True repentance comes with a sincere sorrow for the sin committed borne out of a profound love for God. For repentance to be complete there must be a firm resolution of not going back to the sin committed and the will to live a spirit-filled life.

The question now is: if one is truly sorry for the sin committed, why would the individual be afraid to make restitution, after-all what the individual has in his or her possession does not belong to him or her? It's just like an individual keeping another man's wife in his house when he says he is truly sorry for committing adultery. It doesn't make much sense, does it? The truth is, every Christian MUST make restitution for every sin committed, the only ish would be HOW? Apostle Paul committed a lot of atrocities and had to pay back with something. As Christ puts it succinctly:

Acts9:16 "I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Thank you!

Candour:


@frosbel, i didn't want to take up space with expatiating my point but you got the gist.If the spirit directs you to do it,you might even win a soul in the process because returning stolen goods to the owner who isn't a christian would sure make him want to hear what came over you in the process learning about the work done on the cross.[b]However destroying the lives of 5 children because their mom had to leave their father after 20 years of marriage by the leading of their pastor is very cruel i think.[/b]Like you mentioned your own experience,i've seen it happen and bros,it wasn't nice.

Very cruel indeed.

Even the woman that Jesus spoke to at the well and who had 5 previous husbands was never condemned , instead Jesus preached the good news to her because she was a sinner and needed salvation. Also , if you take notice, he never requested that she return to the first husband though he did not also encourage her partner status at the time.

I am happy we see eye to eye on this , because it always boggled my mind , as to how this requirement could ever be implemented without causing undue stress and chaos.

striktlymi: Good morning Mr. Goshen,

The question now is: if one is truly sorry for the sin committed, why would the individual be afraid to make restitution, after-all what the individual has in his or her possession does not belong to him or her? It's just like an individual keeping another man's wife in his house when he says he is truly sorry for committing adultery. It doesn't make much sense, does it? The truth is, every Christian MUST make restitution for every sin committed, the only ish would be HOW? Apostle Paul committed a lot of atrocities and had to pay back with something. As Christ puts it succinctly:


Thank you!

Sinners are sinners because they do not know Christ.

Once they repent from their sins and become born again, they only make restitution as the spirit leads.

For example, if a MAN stole another MAN's wive while living in sin and they produced say 3 children, to erroneously suggest that he should give the wife back to the first husband, who may have remarried and had other children is not only wrong it is also unbiblical.

This is what the bible has to say on this matter ;

"4 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance." - Deuteronomy 24:1-4

Goshen360: E be like say una dey afraid for this topic huh.

You know how e be now bro Goshen.

You are needed here www.nairaland.com/1152439/take-it-personal-give-et

Give your take on the thread above sir.

@frosbel--we no see you there either

I hope say "una no dey fear the topic"

Good morning Mr. Frosbel

frosbel:


Sinners are sinners because they do not know Christ.

Once they repent from their sins and become born again, they only make restitution as the spirit leads.

The bolded suggests that we are in agreement that restitution is needed.

frosbel:
For example, if a MAN stole another MAN's wive while living in sin and they produced say 3 children, to erroneously suggest that he should give the wife back to the first husband, who may have remarried and had other children is not only wrong it is also unbiblical.

I guess in your 'haste' you did not read my post properly or may be because my post was a bit lengthy. Sorry about that. Now if you go through my post again (assuming you have the time), you would realize that I did not imply that the wife should be given back to the husband (this is left for the husband to decide). I gave an example of the case of Saul. Saul never brought Stephen back to life but this did not mean that Paul never made restitution via some other means. Some restitution are clear-cut while some others might prove a bit difficult. I tried to pass across this message in my post when I said "How"! but may be I wasn't effective.

frosbel:
This is what the bible has to say on this matter ;

"4 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance." - Deuteronomy 24:1-4

Though the quote above is really not needed but you should realize that Christ gave the reason why the above was done in the old testament. See the comments of Christ on the matter:

Matthew 19: 7-8

7 The Pharisees asked him, “Why, then, did Moses give the law for a man to hand his wife a divorce notice and send her away?”

8 Jesus answered, “Moses gave you permission to divorce your wives because you are so hard to teach. But it was not like that at the time of creation.

Thank you!

[quote author=striktlymi]Good morning Mr. Frosbel

I guess in your 'haste' you did not read my post properly or may be because my post was a bit lengthy.

I was in no haste, I read your post and instinctively understood where you were coming from.

you would realize that I did not imply that the wife should be given back to the husband (this is left for the husband to decide).

If a woman has married another man while in unbelief and had children or not, it is an abomination to return to the first husband, this is not biblical , if it is, show me in scripture where this is applicable.

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." - Matthew 19:9

It does not say that this sin cannot be repented off if done in unbelief. All sins can be repented off if not done willfully and in ignorance.

To bound people by their past sins is demonic , simples.

Show me in scripture , one case where a wife went back to her husband after marrying another man and bearing children for him.

I gave an example of the case of Saul. Saul never brought Stephen back to life but this did not mean that Paul never made restitution via some other means. Some restitution are clear-cut while some others might prove a bit difficult. I tried to pass across this message in my post when I said "How"! but may be I wasn't effective.

uhmm, sorry you lost me here. We are talking about restitution , right ?

Though the quote above is really not needed but you should realize that Christ gave the reason why the above was done in the old testament. See the comments of Christ on the matter:

Matthew 19: 7-8

Of course, I know this and agree 100% , but that is not the point.

Repentance from adultery brings forgiveness from GOD.


Let us be careful lest we put people under burdens that we will not help them bear or bear ourselves, this is what the Pharisees were very good at, insisting on every detail of the law while rejecting the importance of mercy and truth.

"They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." - Matthew 23:4

[quote author=striktlymi]

Dear Brother, you and i can't legislate righteousness.Christians are not subject to the laws of Moses not because of good reasons but simply because ''Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth'' Rom 10:4.we can't start cherry picking some laws and leaving some with ''good reasons'' because i can easily direct you to the curse placed in Deut 27:26 for those who do so.Rom 15:4 tells us why we should study the Pentateuch and other books of the old testament.For instance if you are not a sabatharian, you're in direct contravention of Exodus 20:8-11,Exodus 23:12 and exodus 31:15 in fact with penalty of death.According to Menachem Begin(an Israeli leader of their fight for nationhood),a jew is a person who abides by the 613 laws contained in the torah.he said this in 1947 i think.Brother you can't keep it all i tell u.just read from Deut chapter 12 to chapter 27 for a summary and you'll understand why Apostle Peter called it bondage in Acts 15:10

If the Spirit directs a christian to do restitution no matter how injurious then by all means go ahead.this is because ''it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure''Phil 2:13 and his leading will surely not lead to chaos.A denomination shouldn't make life a living hell for members because a G.O had the leading to do a major restitution.It becomes a case of you're not spiritual that's why u can't do it like me,fast like me,pray like me and give like me.Let God who works in us all lead them pls.

If the killing of Stephen is what made Christ tell Paul he'll suffer for his name,then what Sin did Stephen himself commit to be killed by Saul and his fellow zealots? bringing the gospel to the gentiles was going to be costly and dangerous and that is the truth Christ revealed to Paul.My bible appendix contains the graphic accounts of how the 12 apostles were martyred except John the beloved.I'm sure you agree this can't be some restitution agenda.

Pls let us allow God to lead us by his Spirit.

I might have left out some points i do not like to monopolize the space and that's why i also did not type out the contents of some references.

God bless us all

In response to candour please read math 5 with emphasis on verse 17-19 these are the words of christ
1. The whole sermon on the mount (math 5-7) is pure law (deutronomy) repeated for your benefit Yashua son of joseph quoted from deutronomy more than any other book in the torah.
2. The future kingdom of christ will be based on this same constitution (Law)
3. With the change of the priesthood came the change in the accepted sacrifice which in the spirit of christ should be yourself (selfsacrifice)Heb 7:12 ceremonial law. What happens to the moral and civil guidance in the kingdom age do you plan to write your own law?
4. Yashua son of joseph fufilled the law to the letter john 8:46, just so you could do the same as a desciple and not come 2000yrs later and say there is no need?
5.When James was saked to give a final settlement to the question of fufilling torah law as regarding the gentiles acts 15: 19-20 the book of deutronomy (book of the law) was still his reference (abstain from things strangled,from blood,from fornication and pollutions of idols) why are you trying to fufill otherwise
6. From within the 613 instances of though shalt not and thou shalt within the old testament which one you wan remove or keep. Is this what Yashua ben joseph has taught you presonally or what the the devil is trying to push on the world.
7.Paul speaks of the lawless man in 2nd thess chapter 2 what makes him lawless what laws has he abandond still knowing the truth.The debate between “law versus grace,” is actually a debate between “law versus lawlessness. Are you a lawless man?

Finally please endevour to quote christ on this issue as much as possible if he is truly your master.

Peace and love!

Good afternoon again Mr. Frosbel,

frosbel: I was in no haste, I read your post and instinctively understood where you were coming from.

I am glad that you were in no haste when you responded to my post but I don't think you should "instinctively understand" where someone is coming from. It's best to ask questions when in doubt.

frosbel:
If a woman has married another man while in unbelief and had children or not, it is an abomination to return to the first husband, this is not biblical , if it is, show me in scripture where this is applicable.

Like I said before in my previous posts, I never said anything about the "wife" going back to the rightful husband. I have my thoughts about this but have not made it known yet. Please read my posts again.

frosbel:
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." - Matthew 19:9

I believe this thread is not meant to talk about divorce or unfaithfulness, if you are so keen to dwell on the topic why not create another thread for this purpose?

frosbel:
It does not say that this sin cannot be repented off if done in unbelief. All sins can be repented off if not done willfully and in ignorance.

To bound people by their past sins is demonic , simples.

Well Mr. Frosbel no one said sins cannot be repented of, and I am at a loss as to where you got the "bind people to their past sin" from.

frosbel:
Show me in scripture , one case where a wife went back to her husband after marrying another man and bearing children for him.

No need to show you this sir because if my memory serves me well, I never made such claims.

frosbel: uhmm, sorry you lost me here. We are talking about restitution , right ?

I believe the above makes sense cause what you and I are doing is called: "derailing the thread"

frosbel: Matthew 19: 7-8

Of course, I know this and agree 100% , but that is not the point.

Sir, if indeed you know why then did you have to quote something that you know very well is outdated?

frosbel:
Repentance from adultery brings forgiveness from GOD.


Let us be careful lest we put people under burdens that we will not help them bear or bear ourselves, this is what the Pharisees were very good at, insisting on every detail of the law while rejecting the importance of mercy and truth.

"They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." - Matthew 23:4

Hmmm...I really do not know where you got all that you talked about in the quote above from. Did anyone make any of the comments you are suggesting above?

Sorry Mr. Goshen for derailing your thread. I will make this my last post to Mr. Frosbel.


Thank you!

^^^^

The thread has not been derailed, this is about the restitution of spouses before the born again experience.

In some churches, one of which I was a member, it is required that wives be returned to their first husbands and vice versa if in a second marriage situation , and irrespective of children involved or status of previous spouse. So we are on track talking about this here, especially because of the comment you made earlier which I may or may have not misunderstood, otherwise it is worthy of debate.

This does not pertain to me in anyway as I am a one man , one woman advocate.

My point , which may be irrelevant to you , is that a number of churches that preach this doctrine of restituting spouses , have caused mayhem ,destruction and deep hurt to the children of both families .

Let us end this here, thanks.

MostHigh: In response to candour please read math 5 with emphasis on verse 17-19 these are the words of christ
1. The whole sermon on the mount (math 5-7) is pure law (deutronomy) repeated for your benefit Yashua son of joseph quoted from deutronomy more than any other book in the torah.
2. The future kingdom of christ will be based on this same constitution (Law)
3. With the change of the priesthood came the change in the accepted sacrifice which in the spirit of christ should be yourself (selfsacrifice)Heb 7:12 ceremonial law. What happens to the moral and civil guidance in the kingdom age do you plan to write your own law?
4. Yashua son of joseph fufilled the law to the letter john 8:46, just so you could do the same as a desciple and not come 2000yrs later and say there is no need?
5.When James was saked to give a final settlement to the question of fufilling torah law as regarding the gentiles acts 15: 19-20 the book of deutronomy (book of the law) was still his reference (abstain from things strangled,from blood,from fornication and pollutions of idols) why are you trying to fufill otherwise
6. From within the 613 instances of though shalt not and thou shalt within the old testament which one you wan remove or keep. Is this what Yashua ben joseph has taught you presonally or what the the devil is trying to push on the world.
7.Paul speaks of the lawless man in 2nd thess chapter 2 what makes him lawless what laws has he abandond still knowing the truth.The debate between “law versus grace,” is actually a debate between “law versus lawlessness. Are you a lawless man?

Finally please endevour to quote christ on this issue as much as possible if he is truly your master.

Peace and love!

Christ said he came to fulfill the law and he did exactly dead by shedding his blood on the cross of Calvary with the proclamation ''it is finished'' John 19:30.Gal 3:13-14 re-echoes it ''Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:That the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ;that we might receive the promise through faith''.

responding to your post point by point

1.You are right he quoted from the torah and I'm happy you used his Hebrew name because until he went to the cross,shed his blood and resurrected, Jesus Christ could not be an object of faith for your salvation(as a gentile) as in Eph 2:11-13.on the mount,he was addressing people(Jews) who had lived all their lives under the reading of the law of Moses so they clearly understood him.
2.i agree with your assertion here until then,there is no temple in Jerusalem to handle the full complement of the law.i am also happy u called it constitution because the law given to Moses was in reality a constitution for the Jews(Deut 12:1) much like the Nigerian constitution and totally inapplicable to a roman for example.
3.why not wait till the kingdom age before bringing back the law? where are the levites to handle the temple services?
4.i didn't see any connection in john 8:46.If you too have to fulfill the law,pls dont cherry pick.read Luke 2:22-24 and ensure your wife or sister does likewise.
5.James & co wrote a letter to the gentiles.here is the crux of it in Acts 15:28-29 ''For it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you NO GREATER BURDEN THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS:That ye abstain from meats offered to idols,and from blood,and from things strangled and from fornication:from which if ye keep yourselves,ye shall do well'' .nothing more.
6.Dear brother, if you are not a sabatharian, the law says i should stone you to death(exodus 31:15), what do you think? it also says when you have a son,your wife should take 2 turtle doves or pigeons when she's ready to dedicate a man child to the temple,do you do this in your church?
7.I disagree on this point with you dear Brother.the debate between law and grace is a debate between hagar & sarah,its a debate between ishmael and isaac,a debate between moses and Jesus,It's a debate between bondage and Liberty in Christ which does not permit us to sin.Gal 5:13-14.YOU CAN NEVER BE SAVED BY THE LAW.with temple destruction by Gen Titus in AD70,the heart was ripped out of judaism hence even for the Jew salvation by the law is IMPOSSIBLE.

read Matt 22:37-40 and see what Christ said so you wont accuse me of not quoting Christ enough.

its a learning process and your points made me stumble on some verses I'd not seen before,for this i say thanks.
i guess i'm derailing the thread, pls my apologies to all especially Bro Goshen the OP.

God bless you

@ Striktlymi

Restitution for 'every sin' eh?

How does one carry out 'restitution' after having 3 kids with 'another man's wife'? Who does he carry out 'restitution' for the kids? Who does he return them to? How does he carry out 'restitution' for the s.ex with the woman?

The truth is, every Christian MUST make restitution for every sin committed, the only ish would be HOW?

This is purely your opinion - the bible places no such requirement on Christians. How many sins have you committed and forgotten? Are the 10, 100, 1000? If it is 'every' sin as you claim, then NO CHRISTIAN will EVER be able to make restitution.

What 'restitution' did the thief on the cross have to make to enter into paradise except belief in Jesus? God help you modern day Pharisees and the yoke you place on your brethren.

MostHigh: In response to candour please read math 5 with emphasis on verse 17-19 these are the words of christ
4. Yashua son of joseph fufilled the law to the letter john 8:46, just so you could do the same as a desciple and not come 2000yrs later and say there is no need?
Peace and love!

Sure! Jesus fulfilled the law to the letter, including dying as the wages of sin is death. I'm sure I'm also supposed to die for my sins again after Jesus died for them to prove I'm a disciple?

Beware of the modern day Pharisees!

debosky: @ Striktlymi

Restitution for 'every sin' eh?

How does one carry out 'restitution' after having 3 kids with 'another man's wife'? Who does he carry out 'restitution' for the kids? Who does he return them to? How does he carry out 'restitution' for the s.ex with the woman?



This is purely your opinion - the bible places no such requirement on Christians. How many sins have you committed and forgotten? Are the 10, 100, 1000? If it is 'every' sin as you claim, then NO CHRISTIAN will EVER be able to make restitution.

What 'restitution' did the thief on the cross have to make to enter into paradise except belief in Jesus? God help you modern day Pharisees and the yoke you place on your brethren.

This is what countless Christians go through in some churches , endless guilt that eventually derails their faith.

In my case, I had to start thinking back to years gone by , to see I may had mistakenly stolen or borrowed a 'pin' from school, how ridiculous is this, and it was encouraged by the church.

Restitution must always be Spirit led.

debosky: @ Striktlymi

Restitution for 'every sin' eh?

How does one carry out 'restitution' after having 3 kids with 'another man's wife'? Who does he carry out 'restitution' for the kids? Who does he return them to? How does he carry out 'restitution' for the s.ex with the woman?



This is purely your opinion - the bible places no such requirement on Christians. How many sins have you committed and forgotten? Are the 10, 100, 1000? If it is 'every' sin as you claim, then NO CHRISTIAN will EVER be able to make restitution.

What 'restitution' did the thief on the cross have to make to enter into paradise except belief in Jesus? God help you modern day Pharisees and the yoke you place on your brethren.

Good evening Mr. Debosky,

You are right that it is my opinion that there is restitution for every sin just like it is your opinion that it is not so.

Like I mentioned in my first post, restitution is really not understood by some of us. In the case of the repentant thief, what we should understand is that the thief made restitution for what he did. Recall that God looks at the heart of every individual and from my first post, restitution is part of the process of repentance. The thief had perfect contrition for the sins he committed and he ACCEPTED totally without complaint the punishment he was made to face. This was his restitution. For this individual it is impractical for him to come down from the cross to repair the wrong he has committed hence the need for some other form of restitution.

Christ tried to teach the need for making restitution when he said:

Matthew 5:23-24
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift".

Christ even made it quite difficult cause in this case, you need not be the one at fault. If Christ says the above when we are not guilty, how much more in a case where we are guilty? Restitution in other words is like making peace with your neighbour when you have wronged the individual.

There are clear-cut cases where one would NEED to return whatever was taken from the neighbour but this is not to say that there are cases where judgment cannot be applied. For instance, if one commits murder, that individual has taken the life of someone. In making restitution, I do not expect the individual to give back the life. This would be "silly"! At the minimum, I expect the individual to be truly sorry for the sin committed and an apology would be in order. If there is a punishment (like a jail term) given to this individual I expect him or her to accept this in good faith. This is restitution!

You and Mr. Frosbel keeps giving the example of an adulterous woman. What we should understand is that no matter how we paint what is wrong, it can never be right. If indeed the example has to do with adultery then I expect the individuals involved to stop living this life. There is no justification for adultery! I really won't blame the rightful husband if he decides not to accept this woman back and quite frankly I do not expect her to go back to the husband. It would be very messy. But at the minimum, I expect an apology to the rightful husband, a profound contrition for the sin committed and a firm resolution not to go back to the sin of adultery again.


Thank you!

I have a sincere question to ask candour,frosbel,stryklimi n everyoda person who has placed a post on this thread.

what's the reason behind restitution?
Is it to justify us before God or to justify us before man?

I think the answer to ds question would point us in the right direction.

wordthots: I have a sincere question to ask candour,frosbel,stryklimi n everyoda person who has placed a post on this thread.

what's the reason behind restitution?
Is it to justify us before God or to justify us before man?

I think the answer to ds question would point us in the right direction.

Good evening sir,

I don't think we should look at restitution in terms of justification. I prefer to look at it in terms of love. Love for both God and neighbour. If we love God truly then this love should be felt by everyone around us. I am of the opinion that if anyone makes restitution out of anything but love then that individual is not sincere in his or her resolve and as such, the restitution will not be acceptable to God.

Thank you!

Exactly my stand about it. And yeah i also agree it should be according to the leading of the spirit but how many people here will even allow the spirit of God to lead. How many will be sincere enough to listen to the spirit and follow his leading. My dear you ve said the truth. Adultery remains sin so lets not say because the adultrous people gave birth to children they shouldnt seperate. Giving birth to children doesnt make their actions right. Lets not interpret bible with sentiment. Seperation doesnt mean the woman cant take care of her kids but it means stop being a wife to the man. If the real husband of the adultrous woman has married another woman then she has to stay alone and be praying God to also deliver her husband from adultery so that they can reunite. Jesus did not promise us of a smooth ride to heaven so when a christian needs to go through unpleasant situations in other to please God he should do it.

striktlymi:

Good evening Mr. Debosky,

You are right that it is my opinion that there is restitution for every sin just like it is your opinion that it is not so.

Like I mentioned in my first post, restitution is really not understood by some of us. In the case of the repentant thief, what we should understand is that the thief made restitution for what he did. Recall that God looks at the heart of every individual and from my first post, restitution is part of the process of repentance. The thief had perfect contrition for the sins he committed and he ACCEPTED totally without complaint the punishment he was made to face. This was his restitution. For this individual it is impractical for him to come down from the cross to repair the wrong he has committed hence the need for some other form of restitution.

Christ tried to teach the need for making restitution when he said:

Matthew 5:23-24
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift".

Christ even made it quite difficult cause in this case, you need not be the one at fault. If Christ says the above when we are not guilty, how much more in a case where we are guilty? Restitution in other words is like making peace with your neighbour when you have wronged the individual.

There are clear-cut cases where one would NEED to return whatever was taken from the neighbour but this is not to say that there are cases where judgment cannot be applied. For instance, if one commits murder, that individual has taken the life of someone. In making restitution, I do not expect the individual to give back the life. This would be "silly"! At the minimum, I expect the individual to be truly sorry for the sin committed and an apology would be in order. If there is a punishment (like a jail term) given to this individual I expect him or her to accept this in good faith. This is restitution!

You and Mr. Frosbel keeps giving the example of an adulterous woman. What we should understand is that no matter how we paint what is wrong, it can never be right. If indeed the example has to do with adultery then I expect the individuals involved to stop living this life. There is no justification for adultery! I really won't blame the rightful husband if he decides not to accept this woman back and quite frankly I do not expect her to go back to the husband. It would be very messy. But at the minimum, I expect an apology to the rightful husband, a profound contrition for the sin committed and a firm resolution not to go back to the sin of adultery again.


Thank you!

alexleo: My dear you ve said the truth. Adultery remains sin so lets not say because the adultrous people gave birth to children they shouldnt seperate. Giving birth to children doesnt make their actions right. Lets not interpret bible with sentiment. Seperation doesnt mean the woman cant take care of her kids but it means stop being a wife to the man. If the real husband of the adultrous woman has married another woman then she has to stay alone and be praying God to also deliver her husband from adultery so that they can reunite. Jesus did not promise us of a smooth ride to heaven so when a christian needs to go through unpleasant situations in other to please God he should do it.

This is your doctrine, not the doctrine of Christ !!

There is sin in ignorance before one gets saved and there is willful sin done after the knowledge of salvation.

The emphasis here is on sin done in ignorance or in a state of unbelief.