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Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil - Religion - Nairaland

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Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 8:19pm On Mar 12, 2013
Some time ago I found this interesting conversation on the problem of evil. I absolutely agree with this. What's your own take?

Norman: Hello world, I’m Norman Mailer. Tonight we have a very special guest with us. He is a man who many consider to be the physical embodiment of everything that is good in the world. His name is Jesus Christ, give him a hand please.

Jesus: Hi Norman. My name is actually just Jesus.

Norman: Fair enough. Jesus I’m going to start with a question that people all over the world has been dying to ask you for two thousand years. Why is there suffering in this world when God is a benevolent and omnipotent being?

Jesus: Norman in my life I fed thousands, healed multitudes, and led a life that was dedicated to the ideals of love, self-sacrifice, forgiveness, and generosity. What have you done?

Norman: I really don’t see how my own actions are relevant in this discussion. We’re discussing you and your Father, Jesus.

Jesus: Your actions are the heart of the matter, Norman.

Norman: How so? I’m not the one with the power to make this world a fantastic place that is free of poverty and evil, you are Jesus.

Jesus: How much do you earn Norman?

Norman: That’s a bit of a personal question; let’s just say I earn enough to get by.

Jesus: You earn enough for fifty men to get by. You have the power, from your income alone, to change the lives of many people. If you love, forgive, and serve others, you have the power to change many more.

Norman: I see what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to turn this around on me. I don’t have the ability to alleviate all suffering, but God does. If he actually existed, I don’t see why he wouldn’t just do it?

Jesus: First ask yourself why you don’t utilise all tools available to you to alleviate suffering, and then it may become clearer.

Norman: Are you saying God is as lazy and indifferent as I am?

Jesus: No, I’m saying that you have no right to ask God this question. Only those who do utilise all tools do.

Norman: You’re dodging the question Jesus, and I think it’s because you don’t have a decent answer.

Jesus: Much of the world’s suffering would disappear quite rapidly if humanity did not embrace indifference.

Norman: But that isn’t enough, is it? Sure famine might disappear, and I’ll even grant you that poverty and social inequality is the source of most of today’s suffering. What about genuine acts of individual evil, when someone kills someone else. The victim, and the victim’s family, suffers.

Jesus: Anyone who suffers or dies in the name of good is rewarded. They will be rewarded with something that is far better than your material abundance. Do not pity these people, Norman, or create intellectual arguments based on their existence. Envy them.

Norman: Hmm... You can try to divert the topic as much as you want, Jesus, but the logical inconsistency still exists. Any freethinking person can see it.

Jesus: If this inconsistency were not to exist, it wouldn't change the way you lived. As an intellectual debate the problem of evil is a man-made construction, with defences and rebuttals being thrown around as if it made any difference who wins the argument.

Norman: I think it does matter who wins this argument.

Jesus: You can formulate a "solution" to the problem to justify a belief already held that the presence of evil is not a serious concern or worth any attention in an intellectual or social sense. Or, alternatively, you can choose to reject all solutions to justify the belief already held that God can't exist; which you hold because you don’t have any personal convictions that one does exist.

Norman: …

Jesus: Both are illegitimate. Instead of being a discussion on the reality of evil and how its force in the world affects the way we feel, think, and act, the problem of evil is a vanity exercise used to serve the illusion that a person's perception of the world is founded on objective impersonal reason. It isn't an existential question, and therefore it’s a meaningless one.

Norman: I’m sorry Jesus but we don’t have any more time. I don’t know what the hell you were talking about, but it was fun.

(c)2009 Timothy Neal
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 8:24pm On Mar 12, 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_existentialism:
Christ's point, it says, is often left unsaid in any particular parable or saying, to permit each individual to confront the truth on their own. This is particularly evident in (but is certainly not limited to) his parables.

Often Christ's parables are a response to a question he is asked. After he tells the parable, he returns the question to the individual who originally asked it. Often we see a person asking a speculative question involving one's duty before God, and Christ's response is more or less the same question—but as God would ask that individual.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 8:45pm On Mar 12, 2013
Good evening Inesqor,

I know that God is good and he loves us greatly but I do understand why some persons would choose to see him as 'bad'; and quite frankly the interview above is focused more on what we can change as individuals and in that sense, I will say the the responses of 'Jesus' makes sense but what do you think his response would be with respect to natural disasters? Say, tornado, heat wave, Volcanic eruption etc as a cause of pains and destruction to man?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 9:30pm On Mar 12, 2013
striktlymi: Good evening Inesqor,

I know that God is good and he loves us greatly but I do understand why some persons would choose to see him as 'bad'; and quite frankly the interview above is focused more on what we can change as individuals and in that sense, I will say the the responses of 'Jesus' makes sense but what do you think his response would be with respect to natural disasters? Say, tornado, heat wave, Volcanic eruption etc as a cause of pains and destruction to man?

Good evening friend, thanks for joining the discussion.

Actually recent Geophysical research shows that environmental pollution is most probably a major predisposing factor for tornados, twisters and hailstorms.

Abstract of the peer reviewed Geophysical journal: Why do tornados and hailstorms rest on weekends?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011JD016214/abstract

Still the same point, then. We are doing this to ourselves. We interact with our environment and shape it, and in return it shapes us.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Alfamann: 9:44pm On Mar 12, 2013
InesQor:

Good evening friend, thanks for joining the discussion.

Actually recent Geophysical research shows that environmental pollution is most probably a major predisposing factor for tornados, twisters and hailstorms.

Abstract of the peer reviewed Geophysical journal: Why do tornados and hailstorms rest on weekends?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011JD016214/abstract

Still the same point, then. We are doing this to ourselves. We interact with our environment and shape it, and in return it shapes us.

so, of what fuckin' use is god then?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by UyiIredia(m): 12:08pm On Mar 13, 2013
The problem I find here is that your post ignores the problem of natural evil. It is instead shifting the focus to evil caused due to human shortcomings eg poor distribution of goods and services, lying etc. Diseases, famine, tornadoes and typhoons won't disappear if there was no indifference. These are evils that are whether you admit it or not are the creation of God. The presence of evil is of serious concern if God is said to be all-good and loving. In light of all I've said I opine Jesus did not answer the question of evil. He beat around it.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by mumumugu(m): 12:09pm On Mar 13, 2013
Jesus said hi. Lol
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 12:30pm On Mar 13, 2013
@InesQor, awfully good thread this. I also have always had a niggling suspicion that there is a scientifically discernible link between the environment and our actions. Everything in creation is indeed linked and it all takes its character from the human being. That was a really good post up there.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 12:36pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor:

Good evening friend, thanks for joining the discussion.

Actually recent Geophysical research shows that environmental pollution is most probably a major predisposing factor for tornados, twisters and hailstorms.

Abstract of the peer reviewed Geophysical journal: Why do tornados and hailstorms rest on weekends?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011JD016214/abstract

Still the same point, then. We are doing this to ourselves. We interact with our environment and shape it, and in return it shapes us.

Hi InsiQor,

I am on the road right now and can't address your post. Will be back though at the earliest opportunity.

#Will need my lappy for this.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 12:38pm On Mar 13, 2013
@Uyi Iredia

Nature and its ecosystem are adequately designed to handle famine and diseases. It is when man disrupts nature, that's when both go out of control.

Natural disasters as I said above, increase in frequency due to human disruption. Not to say they'll disappear without our interaction, but they'll be minimal. On the other hand, observe how animals are still so sensitive to natural disasters that way before they occur, they migrate from the scene. Maybe man was also built this way from the onset but we have desensitized ourselves or have grown apathetic such that we've lost that ability.

I do not know for sure but I can't totally exonerate man from these evils. Neither have I said God does only the things that mere men like us will refer to as "only Good".
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by amdatam: 12:40pm On Mar 13, 2013
Uyi Iredia: The problem I find here is that your post ignores the problem of natural evil. It is instead shifting the focus to evil caused due to human shortcomings eg poor distribution of goods and services, lying etc. Diseases, famine, tornadoes and typhoons won't disappear if there was no indifference. These are evils that are whether you admit it or not are the creation of God. The presence of evil is of serious concern if God is said to be all-good and loving. In light of all I've said I opine Jesus did not answer the question of evil. He beat around it.


@Uyi Iredia

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Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 1:51pm On Mar 13, 2013
@striktlymi Sure, no problems! smiley

@Ihedinobi: Thanks for joining! Indeed, everything is connected to everything and only God who knows all, knows how our actions and inactions can affect other things.

@amdatam: Maybe it could help if you give us a hint what the videos are about.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by amdatam: 2:13pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor: @striktlymi Sure, no problems! smiley

@Ihedinobi: Thanks for joining! Indeed, everything is connected to everything and only God who knows all, knows how our actions and inactions can affect other things.

@amdatam: Maybe it could help if you give us a hint what the videos are about.


@InesQor
Uyi Iredia


That will be a spoiler alert

however, it is about God appearing to Joan and reminds her that she promised to do anything he wanted if he would let her brother survive a car crash that left him a paraplegic.

God appeared to her in the form of various people including small children, teenage boys, elderly ladies, transients, or passersby.

No specific mention of any "true" religion is ever made, and God quotes Bob Dylan, Emily Dickinson and the Beatles rather than any scripture or verses.

In one episode (i.e. in 'Touch Move'), God is portrayed with a very human personality, He tells Joan that He has to send her "down there", and laughs when she becomes worried He means Hell, when He meant the school basement.

In another episode, God hands Joan a book from a store they have just left. When Joan accuses him of stealing, He remarks "Well, technically everything's mine".

#Some memorable God quotes from the series

GOD: 'Good is relative. Beauty's relative. Everything's relative. Except for me. I'm absolute.'

GOD: 'People manage to believe in me, even though they have no idea what I am; they trust me even in the silence.'

GOD: 'Some suicides are motivated by rage. At another human being or the universe… or me.
Others come from a deep sadness—suicide seems the only way of stopping the pain. …
And then there are those who do not end their mortal lives, but still, they stop living. Which is also a kind of suicide.”'
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by UyiIredia(m): 2:16pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor: @Uyi Iredia

Nature and its ecosystem are adequately designed to handle famine and diseases. It is when man disrupts nature, that's when both go out of control.

Natural disasters as I said above, increase in frequency due to human disruption. Not to say they'll disappear without our interaction, but they'll be minimal. On the other hand, observe how animals are still so sensitive to natural disasters that way before they occur, they migrate from the scene. Maybe man was also built this way from the onset but we have desensitized ourselves or have grown apathetic such that we've lost that ability.

I do not know for sure but I can't totally exonerate man from these evils. Neither have I said God does only the things that mere men like us will refer to as "only Good".
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 2:22pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor: @Uyi Iredia

[b]Nature and its ecosystem are adequately designed to handle famine and diseases. It is when man disrupts nature, that's when both go out of control.

[/b]Natural disasters as I said above, increase in frequency due to human disruption. Not to say they'll disappear without our interaction, but they'll be minimal. On the other hand, observe how animals are still so sensitive to natural disasters that way before they occur, they migrate from the scene. Maybe man was also built this way from the onset but we have desensitized ourselves or have grown apathetic such that we've lost that ability.

I do not know for sure but I can't totally exonerate man from these evils. Neither have I said God does only the things that mere men like us will refer to as "only Good".

What kind of pseudoscience is that in bold?

Famine and diseases are natural, infact, diseases existed before human beings and natural disasters existed before human beings. The earth existed before human beings.

Erosion and desert-like conditions that lead to famine existed before humans and, so human actions are only part of many factors influencing nature
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 2:31pm On Mar 13, 2013
@amdatam:

Okay thanks for the spoiler alert. Hmmm not sure I'm interested in seeing it though.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by thehomer: 2:52pm On Mar 13, 2013
So rather than Jesus answering the question, he plays around with words. Norman obviously knows his stuff and doesn't let Jesus off so Jesus just wastes time until he gets kicked off the show.

By the reasoning that Jesus presents there, we shouldn't bother discussing issues since be thinks that people's minds cannot be changed or that they make up arguments after the fact.

Obviously, I think it is clear that the problem of evil is a serious issue if one thinks that their God is good, kind, loving and omnipotent.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by thehomer: 2:58pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor: @Uyi Iredia

Nature and its ecosystem are adequately designed to handle famine and diseases. It is when man disrupts nature, that's when both go out of control.

False. Human diseases are "designed" to make people suffer and die in order for the organism causing the disease to flourish.

InesQor:
Natural disasters as I said above, increase in frequency due to human disruption. Not to say they'll disappear without our interaction, but they'll be minimal. On the other hand, observe how animals are still so sensitive to natural disasters that way before they occur, they migrate from the scene. Maybe man was also built this way from the onset but we have desensitized ourselves or have grown apathetic such that we've lost that ability.

This too is false. How did human disruption cause e.g a volcano eruption, a tsunami caused by an underwater earthquake or even an asteroid hitting the earth? The claim that animals are so sensitive that they migrate before the disasters occur is false. It looks that way in our reports because we focus on reporting about humans.

InesQor:
I do not know for sure but I can't totally exonerate man from these evils. Neither have I said God does only the things that mere men like us will refer to as "only Good".

If man isn't causing an asteroid strike or a volcano eruption, who then are you blaming for such an event?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by amdatam: 3:02pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor:

@amdatam:

Okay thanks for the spoiler alert. Hmmm not sure I'm interested in seeing it though.

@InesQor

The mind is like a parachute it works best when open

Curiosity won't kill but then do as you please smiley
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Alfamann: 3:09pm On Mar 13, 2013
amdatam:

@InesQor

The mind is like a parachute it works best when open

Curiosity won't kill but then do as you please smiley


You want a christian to have an open mind? Don't make me laugh. I'll be amazed if he even understood what you meant.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 3:43pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor: @striktlymi Sure, no problems! smiley


Good afternoon InesQor,

I guess some comments are making the thread go 'left', no meaningful conversation can be made as a result.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 3:54pm On Mar 13, 2013
amdatam:

@InesQor

The mind is like a parachute it works best when open

Curiosity won't kill but then do as you please smiley

I am more curious than you can ever imagine. I once simply used to attend Church, then I became an Ifa worshipper for some years, then I have been "New Creation" pentecostal Christian (at a time I posted on Nairaland as mavenbox), then I have been fundamentalist Christian, then I was Agnostic for a very long while, then I embraced Amitabha Buddhism, then I studied Eastern philosophies as an adherent of "Enlightened" teachers (in particular, under the guidance of the "master" Osho), and next I was even Atheist - for a short time - after which due to the poor case that Atheism presented to me, I became simply Theist on a borderline between Theist and Christian (at a time when I posted on Nairaland as Dulcet7), and then I have been an Existentialist. Afterwards I went back to being a Theist because I am a seeker and I did not find answers in Existentialism. After further study in Existentialism, I read some of Kierkegaard's works and I am currently a Christian Existentialist. My views are basically Christian, except that I place more emphasis on your role as a responsible caretaker on earth.

SO your opinion is yours but I think I have come too far to be told that I do not have an open mind.

I am simply not interested in watching this fiction at this point in time, no offence meant. Maybe some other day or time.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 4:03pm On Mar 13, 2013
@thehomer:

(a) The disease organisms have a right to live too. In the balanced ecosystem they have their own place in nature, and everything is accounted for.
(b) Of course there are cases where natural disasters are not a consequence of human disruption. What I said is that they usually aggravate things. As for migration of fauna, I believe this is well known in studies of natural disasters, but I am also okay with agreeing to disagree.
(c) Why do you need to blame anybody for a natural disaster? Do you blame anyone for equinoxes, solstices, tides and all other effects of nature?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 4:04pm On Mar 13, 2013
striktlymi:
Good afternoon InesQor,
I guess some comments are making the thread go 'left', no meaningful conversation can be made as a result.
Good afternoon friend.

Yes. Rather unfortunately so...
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Chrisbenogor(m): 5:17pm On Mar 13, 2013
@Inesqor
I have a simple question, why did God not just forgive the world?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 5:34pm On Mar 13, 2013
Chrisbenogor: @Inesqor
I have a simple question, why did God not just forgive the world?
I have no idea really, but I guess if he had directly done that, you will probably be asking another question today smiley

On a more serious note I think the sacrifice of Christ was a symbolic event such that posterity will be able to refer to it. In the OT, they were used to sacrificing animals to cover for their sin so by extension this was to be the final sacrifice.

Sidenote: I believe life on this earth is not all there is. So, someone dying in this life might not be such a big deal to God as long as the person did all that they were scheduled to have done here i.e. lived a "fulfilled" life. And in Jesus' case, I'll like to think he did.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Nobody: 5:39pm On Mar 13, 2013
Uyi Iredia: The problem I find here is that your post ignores the problem of natural evil. It is instead shifting the focus to evil caused due to human shortcomings eg poor distribution of goods and services, lying etc. Diseases, famine, tornadoes and typhoons won't disappear if there was no indifference. These are evils that are whether you admit it or not are the creation of God. The presence of evil is of serious concern if God is said to be all-good and loving. In light of all I've said I opine Jesus did not answer the question of evil. He beat around it.

1 million likes
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Chrisbenogor(m): 5:41pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor:
I have no idea really, but I guess if he had directly done that, you will probably be asking another question today smiley

Good that you have said no idea, you should have stopped there.

On a more serious note I think the sacrifice of Christ was a symbolic event such that posterity will be able to refer to it. In the OT, they were used to sacrificing animals to cover for their sin so by extension this was to be the final sacrifice.
An intelligent mind like yours should easily pick that this sounds more like what man would do and not God, killing Gods own creature and burning it sounds/smells to you like what a God intelligent enough to create this universe would want to appease him?
Why sacrifice at all, just forgive mankind. Why send a flood? Kill innocent kids who had no choice but to not join noah cos their parents refused? Why not make all the bad guys disappear?

Sidenote: I believe life on this earth is not all there is. So, someone dying in this life might not be such a big deal to God as long as the person did all that they were scheduled to have done here i.e. lived a "fulfilled" life. And in Jesus' case, I'll like to think he did.
Then this is surely a bad way to design the earth, why would God hide and then let people like you speak for him? After designing such a terrific world he designs such a poor way to pass his message across? Seun Osewa would have done better with half of these powers.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 5:50pm On Mar 13, 2013
Chrisbenogor:
Good that you have said no idea, you should have stopped there.
I gave this caveat emptor to prove that I know what will satisfy you. A lot of maybes, and yes indeed so it is.

BUT, you asked for my opinion, so I continued and I gave it.

Chrisbenogor:
An intelligent mind like yours should easily pick that this sounds more like what man would do and not God, killing Gods own creature and burning it sounds/smells to you like what a God intelligent enough to create this universe would want to appease him?
Why sacrifice at all, just forgive mankind. Why send a flood? Kill innocent kids who had no choice but to not join noah cos their parents refused? Why not make all the bad guys disappear?
Religion in general is made of diverse attempts of reconciliation by man. If it sounds like what man will do, I think this is only normal. As for the questions you asked, I can't tell you why God did such and such, I can only tell you my own perception. And to me, making bad guys disappear involve a violation of the bad guys' freewill [I believe in freewill, as you already know]. Of which everyone sef is a bad guy. Or what's the threshold that defines bad guys?

Chrisbenogor:
Then this is surely a bad way to design the earth, why would God hide and then let people like you speak for him? After designing such a terrific world he designs such a poor way to pass his message across?
And who says he wants to pass the message across by himself or through puny me? What if the design is for you to intuitively discover it, whether by personal observation or by interaction with others? Is this a total impossibility?

Maybe your discovery and experience in this life is the main thing you're here for. Why should God interrupt that by forcing himself upon your experience against your freewill?

Chrisbenogor:
Seun Osewa would have done better with half of these powers.
Indeed. After setting up Nairaland, did Seun Osewa begin to impress upon each and every one to get them excited about his world, or did he put things in motion and leave it all for you and I to discover?
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by JeSoul(f): 5:55pm On Mar 13, 2013
InesQor:
I am more curious than you can ever imagine. I once simply used to attend Church, then I became an Ifa worshipper for some years, then I have been "New Creation" pentecostal Christian (at a time I posted on Nairaland as mavenbox), then I have been fundamentalist Christian, then I was Agnostic for a very long while, then I embraced Amitabha Buddhism, then I studied Eastern philosophies as an adherent of "Enlightened" teachers (in particular, under the guidance of the "master" Osho), and next I was even Atheist - for a short time - after which due to the poor case that Atheism presented to me, I became simply Theist on a borderline between Theist and Christian (at a time when I posted on Nairaland as Dulcet7), and then I have been an Existentialist. Afterwards I went back to being a Theist because I am a seeker and I did not find answers in Existentialism. After further study in Existentialism, I read some of Kierkegaard's works and I am currently a Christian Existentialist. My views are basically Christian, except that I place more emphasis on your role as a responsible caretaker on earth.

SO your opinion is yours but I think I have come too far to be told that I do not have an open mind.

I am simply not interested in watching this fiction at this point in time, no offence meant. Maybe some other day or time.
Na wa oh...see journey man cheesy.

1 Like

Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by InesQor(m): 5:59pm On Mar 13, 2013
JeSoul: Na wa oh...see journey man cheesy.

Journeyman indeed, I still am. Till hopefully someday I become a master like you.
Re: Q & A With Jesus On The Problem Of Evil by Image123(m): 6:03pm On Mar 13, 2013
Lovely thread, if i ever said. i hope to be effectively part of this if chanced. BTW, God is good, i'll go with Don Moen on this.

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