teniyi: Hoax! Cross or stake? The source also gave confusion even to the christian. So what is the muslim headache?

vedaxcool: ^
And the gospel of barnabas, the balisades, the Paulisades etc

And the soldiers came before him,
bowing down in mockery, saluting him
as King of the Jews. And they held out
their hands to receive gifts, such as
new kings are accustomed to give; and
receiving nothing they smote Judas,
saying: 'Now, how are you crowned,
foolish king, if you will not pay your
soldiers and servants?' The chief
priests with the scribes and Pharisees,
seeing that Judas died not by the
scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should
set him at liberty, made a gift of
money to the governor, who having
received it gave Judas to the scribes
and Pharisees as guilty to death.
Whereupon they condemned two
robbers with him to the death of the
cross. So they led him to Mount
Calvary, where they used to hang
malefactors, and there they crucified
him Unclad;, for the greater ignominy.
Judas truly did nothing else but cry
out: 'God, why have you forsaken me,
seeing the malefactor has escaped
and I die unjustly?' Truly I say that the
voice, the face, and the person of
Judas were so like to Jesus, that his
disciples and believers entirely
believed that he was Jesus; wherefore
some departed from the doctrine of
Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a
false prophet, and that by art magic
he had done the miracles which he
did: for Jesus had said that he should
not die till near the end of the world;
for that at that time he should be
taken away from the world
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/gbar/
gbar217.htm


So are christian implying that despite the fact the Jesus prayed to God to save him, let this cup pass over me . . . God refused his prayer? In essence Jesus prayer was rejected? The burden lays more on your head!

manmacho:
U can chose to beleive what u want to believe choice is what u have. But no that the truth is our daily experience more than a text. That truth is Jesus christ whose resurection was confirmed by the apostles. The truth they all died for.

deSika: abeg help me ask them what is their headache. did he call Allah on a cross or did he not die on a cross so as not be able to call Allah.

#maybe he jumped into the cross, shouted Allah and then came down.

#my point is muslims make claims without thinking about what they are saying and in so doing expose their folly

vedaxcool:

Lol I am glad that I falsified your lies, the Gospel of Barnabas clearly rejected the notion of crucifixion of christ! Truth is more than a text? Really? So you got to know about crucified christ by stairing at the skies? Lol u must be cracking jokes indeed! Christ never died for anyone sins, and the bible affirms this and that at the most critical period . . . Jesus disciples forsook him and fled. . . Hence they never confirmed whether he ever died on the cross some many lies and confusion on the cruci problems but pre- eminent of this problems is the fact Jesus never wanted to die and prayed to God to pass the cup over him . . . Believe what you want but Jesus never died on the cross . . . To further prove he was the man for the jews he told them . . . No sign shall be given except the sign of jonah for as jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the son of man (not God) be in the belly of the earth . . . Commonsense Jonah was alive for three days and three night in the belly of whale . . . You christians falsify this statement by insisting he died! Problems problems problems andit get worse!

deSika: one minute muslims will tell u Jesus did not die on the cross and in another minute u find them trying to explain to you that Jesus called Eli/Ellah/Allah on that same cross.(in a bid to find Allah in the bible)

now the question is this.
did Jesus die on the cross and while there called Allah or did he not and as such did not have the opportuntity to shout Allah.

#by the way i have to give credit to u guys in yur ability to twist Eli/Eloi into Ellah and then into Allahu and then into Allah.
just as you twist Alleluya into Allaluya.

vedaxcool: ^
And the gospel of barnabas, the balisades, the Paulisades etc

And the soldiers came before him,
bowing down in mockery, saluting him
as King of the Jews. And they held out
their hands to receive gifts, such as
new kings are accustomed to give; and
receiving nothing they smote Judas,
saying: 'Now, how are you crowned,
foolish king, if you will not pay your
soldiers and servants?' The chief
priests with the scribes and Pharisees,
seeing that Judas died not by the
scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should
set him at liberty, made a gift of
money to the governor, who having
received it gave Judas to the scribes
and Pharisees as guilty to death.
Whereupon they condemned two
robbers with him to the death of the
cross. So they led him to Mount
Calvary, where they used to hang
malefactors, and there they crucified
him Unclad;, for the greater ignominy.
Judas truly did nothing else but cry
out: 'God, why have you forsaken me,
seeing the malefactor has escaped
and I die unjustly?' Truly I say that the
voice, the face, and the person of
Judas were so like to Jesus, that his
disciples and believers entirely
believed that he was Jesus; wherefore
some departed from the doctrine of
Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a
false prophet, and that by art magic
he had done the miracles which he
did: for Jesus had said that he should
not die till near the end of the world;
for that at that time he should be
taken away from the world
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/gbar/
gbar217.htm


So are christian implying that despite the fact the Jesus prayed to God to save him, let this cup pass over me . . . God refused his prayer? In essence Jesus prayer was rejected? The burden lays more on your head!

LagosShia:
you are very silly.you coin and design what to believe and turn that into a religion.you practice ignorance and come here to preach.

do you know why? first pointing out that the word "Elah" (if you like twist it into Eli or Eloi) is found in the bible,and according to what is found in the bible Jesus (as) is reported to have made a statement while allegedly dying on the cross or stake,makes no difference as to what the Muslim believe in regards to the Christian belief in crucifixion.the muslim is only trying to let you see how extant the word "Elah" is in the bible and in Aramaic to point out that we muslims refer to God just as it was done in the days of Jesus (as).

not once is the word "Yahweh","Jehovah" or even the tetragrammaton (YHWH) from which Christians derive "God's name" is found in the bible.God and Jesus (as) forgot to mention God's name in His "book".how amazing and unbelievable that is?!!! /

secondly,the word "Elah" (turned into Eli and Eloi) is the root word in Aramaic (the semitic language Jesus spoke,and closely related to Arabic) for calling the Almighty God./

he never died.early church fathers of the roman catholic church adopting a unified position to claim that Jesus (as) died on the cross doesn't make the claim true.

LagosShia:
there were early Christians who did not believe Jesus (as) died on the cross and I will bring the historical evidence,

LagosShia:
in addition to what is found in the gospel of barnabas,whose authenticity is doubted by Christians.

christians need to review their religion and discover that the decision to unify Christendom by imposing many beliefs like the crucifixion to give Christianity a one color is not only based on falsehood but very misleading up to this day for Christians who do not know their past.

LagosShia:
you need to see that believing in human sacrifice,a belief which contradicts basic tenets of the bible,and also common sense and history,should be thrown away as a stone age ideology that have no place in our modern world

LagosShia:
no matter how much Christians package the belief in crucifixion with the shroud of "love" and "sacrifice",it only bounce back to expose the idea that an "unjust" God made an innocent man pay for the "sins" of others (sin,which according to the bible is not inherited or passed from one man to another),and a blood-thirsty "god" who would watch his son die a slow painful death on the cross to please his ego.christians have turned the thirst for blood into "mercy".and worse,it expose a ridiculous and silly "god" who would kill "himself" or his son to pay/please himself for what is punishable of others.its silly!!! I would not give my second car away to a thief who stole my first car (and should be punished) in order that he would be able to pay me back (instead of just forgiving him),would you?s.

LagosShia:
I guess you are pointing finger at me for stating the above in the other thread.may be you can tell us what does Alleluya means and why it is suprising to render it as Allaluya,knowing that El and Al are root words for calling God in semitic languages? And also that "e" and "a" are vowels which can be used interchangeably for semitic languages.

LagosShia: According to three out of the four versions of the Gospel present in the Christian Bible, it is said that whilst Jesus was on the way to be crucified, the soldiers escorting him stopped a certain Jewish man who happened to be passing by named Simon of Cyrene, and made him carry the cross for Jesus.

Now, read carefully the account given in the Gospel of Matthew [Matthew 27:31-37] and note that the text actually implies the crucifixion of Simon of Cyrene and not Jesus (all Biblical quotes in this article are from the King James translation):

31: And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
32: And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
33: And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
34: They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36: And sitting down they watched him there;
37: And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Notice that in verse 32, Simon of Cyrene is referred to, and that in all of the verses following it up to verse 37, Jesus' name is not mentioned, there is only "him" and "he". Thus implying that the word "him" in verse 35 refers to Simon of Cyrene, and not to Jesus.

The fact that they wrote a sign above his head claiming him to be Jesus only indicates that this was what they thought.

And see Mark's similar account [Mark 15:20-26]:

20: And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
21: And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22: And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23: And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24: And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26: And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

These two accounts clearly imply the likelihood that Simon of Cyrene was the one crucified instead of Jesus. However, due to the belief that later came to prevail among the Christians regarding the crucifixion of Jesus, along with the confusion that they must have had in reconciling all of the contradictory accounts, it is likely that much of the other content of those gospels regarding events afterwards was doctored and distorted.

The accounts of Luke and John [Luke 23:26-43, John 19:17-27] are fairly unambiguous that Jesus was crucified, however these two accounts are considered to have been authored at a later period than those of Mark and Matthew.

The author of Luke, as is evident from certain other writings in the New Testament, was clearly an adherent of the teachings of Paul, while the identity of the author of John is controversial, although it is certain from the content of his Gospel that he held many of the complicated beliefs of the Greek philosophers and thinkers, rather than the simple Semitic monotheism that Jesus so clearly taught.

Then I found this interesting piece of information on Wikipedia:

"According to some Gnostic traditions, [b]Simon of Cyrene, by mistaken identity, suffered the events leading up to the crucifixion, and died on the cross instead of Jesus. [/b]This is the story presented in the Second Treatise of the Great Seth, although it is unclear whether Simon or another actually died on the cross, This belief is also held by many Muslims, "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Cyrene

The following is the translation by Roger A. Bullard and Joseph A. Gibbons of the relevant portion of the work known as "The Second Treatise of the Great Seth" mentioned above, which is one of a collection of early Christian gnostic writings dated around the 3rd or 4th century CE that was discovered near the Egyptian town of Nag' Hammadi in 1945. The quote is attributed to Jesus:

"For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death, It was another, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I[t] was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns, And I was laughing at their ignorance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_, the_Great_Seth

And here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say in its online article on Docetism (an early Christian sect regarded as "heretical" by the later Church):

"According to Basilides, Christ seemed to men to be a man and to have performed miracles. It was not, however, Christ, who suffered but Simon of Cyrene who was constrained to carry the cross and was mistakenly crucified in Christ's stead. Simon having received Jesus' form, Jesus returned Simon's and thus stood by and laughed. Simon was crucified and Jesus returned to his father (Irenaeus, Adv. Char., 1, xxiv). According to some apocrypha it was Judas, not Simon the Cyrenean, who was thus substituted."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05070c.htm

Obviously, many of the other beliefs of the Docetists and other Gnostic sects are clear-cut kufr and deviance, however what is relevant here is the admission by the Christians themselves that there was indeed a controversy from the very earliest periods of Christianity regarding who exactly was killed on the cross.

And indeed, Allah revealed the truth of the matter in his Saying: {And because of their saying: "We killed the Messiah, 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah." But they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not.} [An-Nisa': 157]

And Allah knows better.

courtesy:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f15/but-they-killed-him-not-nor-did-16671/

LagosShia: SIMON OF CYRENE

"According to some Gnostic traditions, Simon of Cyrene, by mistaken identity, suffered the events leading up to the crucifixion, and died on the cross instead of Jesus. This is the story presented in the Second Treatise of the Great Seth, although it is unclear whether Simon or another actually died on the cross".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Cyrene

Second Treatise of the Great Seth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_of_the_Great_Seth

THE BIBLE SAYS HE IS ALIVE,NOT "RESURRECTED"!!!

He's Alive!
the word "resurrected" is not used in the new testament once when the disciples of Jesus were reacting to the news that Jesus was not dead but alive.infact,they keep screaming "he's alive",meaning "not dead" since all of them had received the news that Jesus was sentenced to death and they expected him to have died!if they truly knew Jesus was killed,and had returned from the dead,they surely would have repeatedly exclaimed:"he's resurrected"!but not once!!!

Luke 24:23
but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive.

vedaxcool: ^
Oga haba, now desika would not post on his own thread! WELL DONE!!! Couldn't have done better!

deSika:

if i may advice tell ur muslim brothers who try to tell the world that Allah is in the bible to correct themselves. henceforth they shud start saying that it was Judas who shouted Allah on the cross.
am sure by now yu get my point

and again please tell them to come to a consensus on who really impersonated Jesus. is it
A. Judas
b. Simon of cyrene
they should stop confusing us

vedaxcool:

So you agree Judas not Jesus died on the cross? this is hilarious, so muslims compiled Gospel of Barnabas and the Gospel of luke, mark and mathew? poor you the confusion comes the hands of christains tell them to stop confusing you guys rather than blaming muslims, soon you will say muslims should stop confusing you with the numerous bible

deSika:

let me make my point clear to u. since u didnt get it
i dont agree that Judas was onn the cross.
you were the person who just explained to us that it was Judas on the cross.
am just trying to tell you guys to be consistent. if it was Judas who died as yu say. then it follows that it was Judas whu said Allah.
but if it was Jesus who said Allah then it follows that Jesus was on the cross..
it cant be that Jesus said Allah on the cross and yet did not hang on the cross. except maybe by chance he jumped into the cross and quickly said Allah then jumped down.
#by the way Jesus spoke aramaic and not arabic and cud not have pronounced Allah an arabic word

truth is
Jesus died on the cross
bible attest to this
history attests to this (this is 2013 AD)
Jews attests to this
quran alludes to this

welcome to the world of truth

vedaxcool:

Lie number 1: I did not explain to you Judas died on the cross, the GOSPEL OF BARNABAS STATED CLEARLY JUDAS DIED on the cross!

And was it me or any muslim that compiled Gospel of Barnabass? Clearly not, the gospel of barnabas preceeded Islam, in plain english was before Islam, and clearly christians compiled gospel of Barnabas which flatly rejects the death of christ on the cross!

Common sense demands u tell your christian sources to be consistent not me or any other muslims, truth: Jesus never died on the cross and your christian sources attest to this fact and God in the Qur'an attest to that!

deSika: u dont have a right to say he was not crucified since ur quran agrees that if not for ur Allah he wud have bin crucified. take note that it is only the quran that knows that it was not Jesus. every other person thought they were killing Jesus. ur quran says the person they killed was a Jesus kind of person to thier eyes.. the quran was trying to deny the death of Jesus but was not clever enough. at least it should have told us that there was no animosity between the jews and Jesus.

deSika:
UR QURAN SAYS THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED BUT THE JESUS THAT WAS CRUCIFIED IS NOT THE REAL ONE. now u tell me wu is decieving wu..

vedaxcool:
The truth u invite me to, is one where the god you worships behave as follows:

Insults his own mum by calling her woman?

Insults his elders by calling them vipers etc

Insults a woman by referring her and every other non Jew as Dogs?

Claims to forsaken by God? (Do you know what it means to be forsaken by God?)

Prays to a bigger god for assistance and yet his prayer amounts to nut?

Any religion where one god calls a bigger god is polytheism!

I am sorry such "truth" is not meant for one like me, as clearly it is truly a pack of lies concocted by men to mislead men who are weak headed!

vedaxcool:
Islam is the only truth, where Jesus is a responsible, respectful and reasonable individual, where God does not forsake those who are good nor does Jesus call his own mum woman!

Now that is truth Thank you!

deSika: now back to the op.
this one is just a test of your honesty
if yu can answer it. then u have shown your self to be honest.
if cannot thenn know that a spirit of deception rules over you. you need to free yourself from it

and now the question

did Jesus say Allah on the cross.
Yes or no

if Yes. it means you agree that Jesus died on the cross
if no. then you can see that muslims have been swiming in falsehood and deception.
you owe yourself a duty to free yourself

deSika: i dont see any christian quoting from that book thats because to them that book is not fact. for you to quote that book and use it to support your points means that YOU BELIEVE IT TO BE FACT.