shdemidemi:

Pot calling kettle black.

HOW ARE YA MY DEAR FRIEND SHDEMIDEMI

shdemidemi:



I believe the gospel to gentiles is one, therefore, if two Christians don't agree on an issue,one of them(if not both) is definitely wrong.
Although you accept there is one gospel, but you also accept differences within this same gospel. I believe accepting these differences is totally wrong and unacceptable.

shdemidemi: The gospel to Christians is simple and direct, It is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We can draw doctrines of condemnation, election, justification purification, imputation and more from this gospel. All these doctrines can only mean one thing to anyone. Arguments and differences come when the truth is not preached.

"Different" does not necessarily mean "conflicting".

debosky:

The Second encompasses the First only in its intent, not its content. This is a very important distinction to make. The Second achieves what the first intended to achieve and that's where the focus should be.

The misconception of many is that the First was 'perfect' and conformance with the Second implies conformance with all the requirements of the first. This is clearly not so.

What was the intent of the First?

Alwaystrue: @Ihedinobi,
Amen. Very true. Paul did lots of that and used the scripture (either the law or his knowledge of Christ's walk on earth)to seal what He was saying. You are doing great. The words are very gentle as well. Learning....

Like cool breezes and refreshing springs to a weary worker, you have encouraged my soul, sister. Thank you.

Ihedinobi:

"Different" does not necessarily mean "conflicting".

But the scriptures makes the difference between the law of Moses and the gospel of Christ crystal clear- Why are we trying to trivialise the difference between the two-

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Zikkyy:

You stated somewhere you willing to provide clarification if needed. so i need clarification here. when you say God meant it to apply to all men, i assume you refer to the written law. are you saying it was meant for all men at the time the covenant was made i.e. including non jews. or was it to become applicable to all men after Christ? thanks in advance.

You need not assume anything, Zikkyy. What I meant is in black and white and it is the Old Covenant not the written law. And, it was to apply at the time that it was made.

shdemidemi:

Pot calling kettle black.

more like charcoal calling snow black

shdemidemi:

But the scriptures makes the difference between the law of Moses and the gospel of Christ crystal clear- Why are we trying to trivialise the difference between the two-

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Do you think that the difference between Moses and Christ has been trivialized by this thread? If yes, why do you think so? If no, how do you think it has been trivialized?

Mr anony:
more like charcoal calling snow black

TOP OF THE MORNING TO YOU TOO MR ANONY

obadiah777: TOP OF THE MORNING TO YOU TOO MR ANONY

Same to you my friend

Ihedinobi:
You need not assume anything, Zikkyy. What I meant is in black and white and it is the Old Covenant not the written law.

My brother this is even more confusing o! when i assume it to be the law, it was based on your statement below:

Ihedinobi:
Moses's law was this: you will do such and such in order that God may do such and such. That was the Covenant.

now that you are saying it is not the written law, what then is the 'old covenant'? please clarify sir.

my understanding of the mosaic covenant you will find in Exodus, and it was written and agreed to by both parties:

Exodus 24 NIV:
7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”
8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

Ihedinobi:
And, it was to apply at the time that it was made.

if it applies to all men at the time it was made, how come it was only the Israelite that was present to sign the agreement? and for the Israelite to reap the benefits in covenant, other 'covenant members' will have to suffer:

Exodus 23 NIV:
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.

My thinking is that if it was applicable to all men at the time including the Egyptians that enslaved the Israelites, i believe they should be co-beneficiaries. abi? what do you think?

obadiah777: DAYUMMM IHEDINOBI BRINGING IN HERESIES LIKE THE REPROBATE HE IS I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSING A TESTAMENT AND A COVENANT. WHILE THERE ARE TWO TESTAMENTS IN THE BIBLE ( WHICH A TESTAMENT IS A WRITTEN DOCUMENT ), HOWEVER THERE IS ONLY ONE COVENANT THAT APPLIES TO MAN ON THIS SIDE OF HEAVEN. AND THAT COVENANT IS THE LAWS WE ARE BOUND TO. THE NEW COVENANT TAKES PLACE IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, WHICH WE ARE NOT CURRENTLY IN, SO YOU ARE BRINGING IN HERESIES. WHAT IS THE NEW COVENANT ? THE LAWS WILL BE WRITTEN IN THE INWARD PARTS OF THOSE WHO MAKE IT <<< THATS THE NEW COVENANT. ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING IT IS THAT CORRUPTION WILL INHERIT INCORRUPTION <<<< NEW COVENANT. ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING IT IS THAT TERRESTRIAL BODIES BECOME CELESTIAL BODIES <<<< NEW COVENANT . AND I REPEAT YOU ARE CONFUSING TESTAMENT WITH COVENANT. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THANGS SMDH

Bros Obadiah dropping dimes

Dimes I Say!!

Ihedinobi:

What was the intent of the First?

Galatians 3:19

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.

Galatians 3:24-25

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Mr anony:
more like charcoal calling snow black

You Self Rightouse you......

MostHigh:

Bros Obadiah dropping dimes

Dimes I Say!!

TRYING TO GET TO THE LEVEL OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE MY DEAR SIR. THATS ALL AM DOING BROTHER MOSTHIGH TOP OF THE MORNING TO YOU

MostHigh:

You Self Rightouse you......

Hahahahaha............why are you judging me?

JEREMIAH 31 VS 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. <<< NEW COVENANT.

EXODUS 24 VS 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. <<< OLD COVENANT

GRACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NEW COVENANT. GRACE IS THE ELECT GETTING RELEASED FROM THE OLD COVENANT AND BEING KEPT IN LIMBO TILL THE NEW COVENANT KICKS IN IN THE KINGDOM. SO WHILE THE ELECT ARE NOW ABOVE THE LAW, YET THE CORRUPTIBLE HAS NOT YET INHERITED INCORRUPTION. SO THEY ARE STUCK BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW COVENANT. THATS WHY PAUL WAS STRUGGLING WITH SIN. HE HADNT INHERITED INCORRUPTION. THOUGH HE IS NOW ABOVE THE LAW.

Ihedinobi:

Do you think that the difference between Moses and Christ has been trivialized by this thread? If yes, why do you think so? If no, how do you think it has been trivialized?

you made it clear at the end of the post that the old covenant is now obsolete. The thread still seem like a subtle way of merging beliefs, especially 'the accommodating differences that I pointed out earlier'.

Ihedinobi: God's Demands have never changed. What He wants of man has not wavered from the first Covenant to the Second. His Principles are eternal. However, His "offer", if you will, changed (after all, that part depended on us, so it was changeable).
Now, indeed, the Law has passed away, there are no obligations for the believer now because he has righteous desires that govern his behavior. However, it is reality that sometimes believers still sin, what then?

In that situation, says John in his first epistle, we have an Advocate. Now would we need an Advocate if there were no case to answer at all? Obviously not. That means that when we sin, there is accusation that we come under and a penalty to face. These are described in the first Covenant. But in the second, not only are the blessings richer and more stupendous, the condemnation is by far more grievous. As the writer to the Hebrews said, he that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? That only means that the person stoned to death for adultery under the Old Covenant faired a lot better than the one who looks upon a woman with lust in his heart under the New.TBC

covenant that God was offering to everyone reaching for Him.TBC[/quote]

John's gospel and Hebrews were not books addressed to a gentile believer (though we can learn and get basic facts from these books). They are totally inapplicable to us(gentile) if we rightly divide the word. The gospel of Christ focuses more on our perception and intuition which is much different from the gospel preached to the Jewish nation.

obadiah777: TRYING TO GET TO THE LEVEL OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE MY DEAR SIR. THATS ALL AM DOING BROTHER MOSTHIGH TOP OF THE MORNING TO YOU

And to you too ma brother.

All knowledge is from the most high God.

@Zikkyy

Did you read my posts at all?

debosky:

Galatians 3:19

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.

Galatians 3:24-25

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

So by "the Second achieves what the first intended to achieve", you are saying that the First failed to show man his impotence to please God and the Second came in to accomplish that?

MostHigh:

And to you too ma brother.

All knowledge is from the most high God.

YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT BROTHER.
REVELATION 14 VS 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made the fountains of waters. <<< FOUNTAINS OF WATER = KNOWLEDGE

shdemidemi:

you made it clear at the end of the post that the old covenant is now obsolete. The thread still seem like a subtle way of merging beliefs, especially 'the accommodating differences that I pointed out earlier'.

Per the first sentence, I did indeed. And I stand by it. I don't understand what you mean by the rest even after reading your quote of my post.

covenant that God was offering to everyone reaching for Him.TBC

John's gospel and Hebrews were not books addressed to a gentile believer (though we can learn and get basic facts from these books). They are totally inapplicable to us(gentile) if we rightly divide the word. The gospel of Christ focuses more on our perception and intuition which is much different from the gospel preached to the Jewish nation.

I cannot help you here. As far as I am concerned, all of Scripture is not only relevant but vital to every believer, Jew and Gentile, since we are all of one race and family now.

Zikkyy:

My thinking is that if it was applicable to all men at the time including the Egyptians that enslaved the Israelites, i believe they should be co-beneficiaries. abi? what do you think?

Don't you think the mix multitude that left egypt was a SIGN that it was applicable to not just the Israelites

obadiah777: JEREMIAH 31 VS 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. <<< NEW COVENANT.

1)...And when and where do you think this new covenant will be established,practiced and fulfilled? HEAVEN

2) So,what on earth did Jesus achieve by his blood? *signified by the breaking of break and the cup of wine shared with his disciples*

obadiah777: EXODUS 24 VS 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. <<< OLD COVENANT

GRACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NEW COVENANT. GRACE IS THE ELECT GETTING RELEASED FROM THE OLD COVENANT AND BEING KEPT IN LIMBO TILL THE NEW COVENANT KICKS IN IN THE KINGDOM. SO WHILE THE ELECT ARE NOW ABOVE THE LAW, YET THE CORRUPTIBLE HAS NOT YET INHERITED INCORRUPTION. SO THEY ARE STUCK BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW COVENANT. THATS WHY PAUL WAS STRUGGLING WITH SIN. HE HADNT INHERITED INCORRUPTION. THOUGH HE IS NOW ABOVE THE LAW.

Incorruption and immortality is just a reward for keeping the new covenant and the tenets of the laws attached to it.

The "laws" attached to it are the subjects of debate in many previous threads whether it be the ones from the old testament books (refered to as the laws of moses) or another set from the new testament writings or a mix of both laws.

.

Ihedinobi: @Zikkyy
So by "the Second achieves what the first intended to achieve", you are saying that the First failed to show man his impotence to please God and the Second came in to accomplish that?

I did not express myself clearly enough previously. The Second fulfills the intent of the First, or better phrased, the intent behind the First.

The intent was to provide a guardian - this is fully met in Jesus Christ.

Edited.

anukulapo:

Don't you think the mix multitude that left egypt was a SIGN that it was applicable to not just the Israelites

I am not close to a study tool that I use occasionally and I don't think I'll be for awhile or else I'd have confirmed a part of Scripture where the Lord, I think, states that if a foreigner or Gentile wanted to become part of the commonwealth of Israel and serve Israel's God, he was to be accepted upon circumcision. In many other places, particularly in the Prophets, you'll find the Lord using or speaking of Israel as His platform for reaching the rest of the world. There's a particular prophecy that betrays God's eternal intent which says that the law would go forth from Zion.

Also, I mentioned Deuteronomy 23 which implicitly says that God expected what He was doing with Israel to spread to other lands. There He listed the peoples He excepted and explained why. In fact, the Egyptians that Zikkyy named were specifically mentioned there with the Lord expressing willingness to include them in His Covenant with Israel from a specific generation. That was partly why I asked him if he read my posts at all.

Now, a very important bit of the puzzle is that the patriarch of Israel, Abraham, was specifically told that God had singled him out in order to use him to reach all mankind. As we know, Israel became exclusive in their imagination, claiming to be special (which, no doubt, they were) and hogging God to themselves (contrary to God's Purposes) because they were Abraham's children, according to the flesh. That only means that they were claiming Abraham's place, and rightly so. What was Abraham's place? That of a channel by which God would reach the rest of mankind.

Thus, even the Old Covenant while indeed immediately for the Jew was also meant for the "stranger" as the Bible calls the foreigner.

anukulapo:

1)...And when and where do you think this new covenant will be established,practiced and fulfilled? HEAVEN

2) So,what on earth did Jesus achieve by his blood? *signified by the breaking of break and the cup of wine shared with his disciples*




Incorruption and immortality is just a reward for keeping the new covenant and the tenets of the laws attached to it.

The "laws" attached to it are the subjects of debate in many previous threads whether it be the ones from the old testament books (refered to as the laws of moses) or another set from the new testament writings or a mix of both laws.

QUESTION 1 - THE NEW COVENANT WILL BE ESTABLISHED IN HEAVEN. YES. HEAVEN ON EARTH
2- WHAT DID JESUS ACHIEVE ? UNIFIED THE WHOLE WORLD BOTH JEW AND GENTILES UNDER THE OLD COVENANT, WHICH THE GENTILES WERE NOT A PART OF BEFORE, AND HENCE SETTING THE GROUND FOR THE SECOND FRUIT TO BE HARVESTED FROM THE WHOLE WORLD, THIS SECOND FRUIT AS WELL AS THE FIRST FRUIT WILL MOVE INTO THE NEW COVENANT IN HEAVEN. SO WHILE THE FIRST FRUIT WAS HARVESTED FROM ONLY ISRAEL, THE SECOND FRUIT WILL BE HARVESTED FROM THE WHOLE WORLD. CHRIST MADE THAT HAPPEN BY GIVING GRACE TO THE FIRST FRUIT AND SEALING THEM SO THAT THEY CAN WRITE THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT UNITES THE GENTILES WITH THE JEWS UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.

3 KEEPING THE NEW COVENANT IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAPPEN NATURALLY BECAUSE YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ABLE TO SIN. THE NEW COVENANT IS 'NOT BEING ABLE TO SIN'. SO YOU DONT GET REWARDS FOR KEEPING THE NEW COVENANT, YOUR REWARD IS THE NEW COVENANT. AS WELL AS THE GOOD LIFE OF COURSE LOL. YOU GET TO OWN THE WHOLE WORLD AND BE IN CHARGE OF THE REPROBATES WHO DIDNT MAKE IT INTO THE NEW COVENANT WHO ARE STILL STUCK IN THE OLD COVENANT. YOU WILL BE THEIR NEW LORDS AND YOU CAN BEAT THEM TO SMITHEREEN BECAUSE THAT WILL BE PART OF YOUR REWARD FOR INHERITING THE NEW COVENANT. YOU GET TO BE A RULER OF REPROBATES
REVELATION 2 VS 26-27 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

PSALMS 2 VS 8-9 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. << THOSE OF US WHO MAKE IT SHALL GET TO LORD OVER REPROBATES LIKE BABANGIDA AND OYEDEPO. WE SHALL BEAT THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THEM

debosky:

Firstly I did not say the second achieves what the first intended to achieve - I said the Second fulfills the intent of the First, or better phrased, the intent behind the First.

The intent was to provide a guardian - this is fully met in Jesus Christ.

I quoted your words exactly, debosky. I made absolutely no editing except to change the uppercase "T" in the first word to a lowercase one to flow with the rules of grammar. Check your post again.

And this intent that you have stated here contradicts the Scriptures that you provided, at least, in one case.

According to the first one, the purpose of the Old Covenant was to show our sin and keep us until Messiah came. According to the second one, the law was, in fact, our guardian until Messiah came. It wasn't merely supposed to provide us with a guardian, it was our guardian and it was established for exactly the purpose of being one until Messiah came.

As for intents behind and such, the Scriptures seem pretty clear as to what the intents are - the Scriptures you gave no less.

Ihedinobi:
@Zikkyy

Did you read my posts at all?

i did. it's just that your posts is a bit confusing. i assumed you were referring to the law, but you said i should stop assuming and that you are talking about the covenant. Yet you keep referring to the law. The thread is titled the law of Moses. You can see the issues am having. see below for another post you made where you used the law and covenant in your teaching.

Ihedinobi:
was it Jewish law? Yes. Were all men then called to be with God as the Jews were? Obviously. So it was a covenant that God was offering to everyone reaching for Him.

so if the written law is not the covenant, what covenant are you talking about?

In another post, you referred to parties entering into covenant with God....

Ihedinobi:
However, as Moses did, and Jesus too later witnessed, the parties with whom God was entering into the covenant were stiffnecked. And that meant that Moses had to make some "compromises" as it were.

...if the covenant applied to the Eqyptians, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites and other tribes of that era, how come they were not aware of this covenant, and when Moses made some 'compromise' are you saying the compromise applies to these other tribes as well? How did it happen that the Israelite made a covenant on behalf of their next door neighbor and even the Israelite were not aware their next door neighbor were part of this covenant? reading your posts, i don't find answers. maybe you can point me to the exact post that answers my questions. Thanks

Ihedinobi:
@Zikkyy

Did you read my posts at all?

Are you saying you are no longer providing the needed clarifications you cannot be a good teacher if you run aware from questions.

@Zikkyy

Read this post again: https://www.nairaland.com/1290444/law-given-moses-grace-truth#15724890

and this one: https://www.nairaland.com/1290444/law-given-moses-grace-truth#15725205 particularly the first one ignorance of which may be the reason you're confused.

Your answer about the Covenant and the Law is there.

Also, I do not need your endorsement of my ability or work, Zikkyy. I will not refuse to answrr any questions but I have no responsibility or ability to make my answersacceptable to anyone.