sino: ^^^
*Sighs*
Same old stuff, okay o, it raises a big question about his morals abi? Well, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

There are lofty opinions about this great man, about his life and behaviours, by scholars of good repute, Muslims and Non-Muslims alike, which drowns your opinion totally!
If you want them, i'll gladly present them to you with pleasure

Peace.

Omo, I don't need others opinion about the prophet. The Quran and Hadith are the ONLY AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES that are required to know and learn about Mohammed. Again, it's not my opinion - it is FACTUAL EVIDENCE FROM YOUR HOLY WRITS about the live and deeds of the prophet.

Perhaps you can show me the greatness from the Quran and Hadith - that would have more weight than anyone's opinion

I asked that you provide reference to Mary's age from the Bible and you haven't. In a conversation, especially one that encourages knowledge and scholarship, learn to provide authoritative references.

alexis:

Omo, I don't need others opinion about the prophet. The Quran and Hadith are the ONLY AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES that are required to know and learn about Mohammed. Again, it's not my opinion - it is FACTUAL EVIDENCE FROM YOUR HOLY WRITS about the live and deeds of the prophet.

Perhaps you can show me the greatness from the Quran and Hadith - that would have more weight than anyone's opinion

Huh?! You wouldn't have missed it during your 'extensive' study of the Qur'an and Hadith, or you've never really did any study?

By the way, have you seen this?

https://www.nairaland.com/1304977/jesus-v-muhammad-muslim-response

I want to believe you have a good heart, so watch it and tell me what you think

Alexis:
I asked that you provide reference to Mary's age from the Bible and you haven't. In a conversation, especially one that encourages knowledge and scholarship, learn to provide authoritative references.

Come on dude, you need to quit this line, its quite lame. I asked you for a contrary opinion in regards to Mary's(As) age, you ignored it. If we can't find Mary's age in the Bible, shouldn't we look else where? Does History make any sense to you?!
I told you to google the age at which females got married in Mary's era, you started typing some funny things... it's simple, i don't need to start making references(as if i'm writting a thesis) to simple things as this which you can easily verify, moreover references had been provided in previous posts.

sino

Huh?! You wouldn't have missed it during your 'extensive' study of the Qur'an and Hadith, or you've never really did any study?

When you engage others, learn to provide specific references so people can confirm your source. All I asked is that you provide references from the Quran and Hadith - that shouldn't be too hard, should it?

By the way, have you seen this?

https://www.nairaland.com/1304977/jesus-v-muhammad-muslim-response

I want to believe you have a good heart, so watch it and tell me what you think

I suggest we stick to this thread. There is no need to jump to another thread. I can ask you to read the Bible to know more about Jesus but there is no scholarship in that if I don't explain His teachings and person to you.

Come on dude, you need to quit this line, its quite lame. I asked you for a contrary opinion in regards to Mary's(As) age, you ignored it. If we can't find Mary's age in the Bible, shouldn't we look else where? Does History make any sense to you?!
I told you to google the age at which females got married in Mary's era, you started typing some funny things... it's simple, i don't need to start making references(as if i'm writting a thesis) to simple things as this which you can easily verify, moreover references had been provided in previous posts.

Listen, you keep side-stepping the question. How did we know Aisha was 6 when Mohammed married her and she was 9 when he consummated his marriage with her? Did we get that from a contrary opinion or from an AUTHORITATIVE text that muslims hold in high regard? That is the same thing I am asking you to do to confirm Mary's age.

So said references where provided in earlier posts - Can you please show me? Is google an authority on the age of Mary? In a scholastic debate, would you give your opponent google as the reference? .

Come on - we are asking for details and as a student of the Quran, surely you can be a little more precise.

^^^
Yada yada yada, sorry, i didn't know we were having a 'scholastic debate'...

If you had been a little patient to watch the video on the link i posted, you would have found answers to your 'scholastic questions' in regards to the prophet(SAW).

With you displaying readiness to quote the Qur'an and Hadiths to back your claims, shouldn't i think you've studied them so much?

See, i no get your time, the issue on this thread has been adequately explained, as i said, you are entitled to your opinion, no one is forcing you to believe anything.

sino: ^^^
Yada yada yada, sorry, i didn't know we were having a 'scholastic debate'...

If you had been a little patient to watch the video on the link i posted, you would have found answers to your 'scholastic questions' in regards to the prophet(SAW).

With you displaying readiness to quote the Qur'an and Hadiths to back your claims, shouldn't i think you've studied them so much?

See, i no get your time, the issue on this thread has been adequately explained, as i said, you are entitled to your opinion, no one is forcing you to believe anything.

Lol, no worry mate. I wouldn't engage you again. You have provided all the reference I asked for - NONE. People like you go around in circles. You have passed with an A in doing that already. Good luck to you.

In between, that your prophet married a child is not my opinion - it's a DOCUMENTED FACT IN YOUR HOLY BOOK. If you think he is a GREAT man for marrying a kid - that is your banana-split; not mine. You tried to defend it that everyone was okay with it but it back-fired on you. You tried to justify the same with Jewish culture but proof, you no fit provide.

It is on record that he wore Aisha clothes too - I guess that is another reason he is considered great. Hmmmmmm........

alexis:

Lol, no worry mate. I wouldn't engage you again. You have provided all the reference I asked for - NONE. People like you go around in circles. You have passed with an A in doing that already. Good luck to you.

^^^
Hope you enjoyed the waltz...

sino: ^^^
Hope you enjoyed the waltz...

Really - that is your response

@Alexis

alexis: You tried to justify the same with Jewish culture but proof, you no fit provide.

You are right that Mary's age was not mentioned in the Bible. It was not unusual for Jewish girls at the time to be married by the age of 12 (Note: a girl may be betrothed before that time). Ref: http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm#Kiddushin

We also have references to Mary's age in Christian writings for example in the Catholic encyclopedia: http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6476 (scroll to the section title "marriage" ) and http://christianity.about.com/od/newtestamentpeople/p/marymotherjesus.htm

@Alexis About the Prophet "wearing Aisha's clothes" and "Aisha's father not agreeing to the marriage", can you please start a thread on those two issues so that we don't derail this one? Your misconceptions about those two issues can be appropriately dealt with there. Thanks.

IbrahimB: @Alexis


You are right that Mary's age was not mentioned in the Bible. It was not unusual for Jewish girls at the time to be married by the age of 12 (Note: a girl may be betrothed before that time). Ref: http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm#Kiddushin

We also have references to Mary's age in Christian writings for example in the Catholic encyclopedia: http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6476 (scroll to the section title "marriage" ) and http://christianity.about.com/od/newtestamentpeople/p/marymotherjesus.htm

Hi IbrahimB - thanks for the info and for the reference. I am okay with the fact that you agreed her age wasn't mentioned in the Bible. Thanks again for the reference.

IbrahimB: @Alexis About the Prophet "wearing Aisha's clothes" and "Aisha's father not agreeing to the marriage", can you please start a thread on those two issues so that we don't derail this one? Your misconceptions about those two issues can be appropriately dealt with there. Thanks.

I didn't intend to start a thread on the two points but to point out to sino that his perception of the prophet been a GREAT man was questionable and to refute his claim that no one complain about Aisha's marriage when she was 6.

alexis: ... and to refute his claim that no one complain about Aisha's marriage when she was 6.

No one complained about Aisha's marriage to the Prophet like you said. Aisha's betrothal and marriage to the Prophet was certainly not an "abnormal" thing in those days. Kindly consider the following:

a) Even before Muhammad, Aisha had been betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im whose non-Muslim father objected to the marriage. This fact alone rests the issue that the Prophet's marriage to Aisha was simply one of the Prophet's whimsicalities which even at that time was unusual. (Ref: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubayr_ibn_Mut%27im[/url])

b) On some accounts, it was Khawla bint Hakim who prompted the Prophet to marry again - after the death of his first wife Khadija - specifically to the daughter of his bosom friend, Abubakar who was also the first Caliph of Islam. It's easy to see why Khawla would suggest to the Prophet to marry a virgin, for his second wife, as he had been married to a much older woman for 25 years or so, being now over 50 years of age.

c) On receiving the proposal, the Prophet remarked that Aisha was still "young" being only 6 years at that time (and additionally he was with children who needed a step-mother). This was probably the reason why the consummation of the marriage was delayed till when Aisha was about 9 years old.

While Aisha stayed with her parents, the Prophet got married to yet another widowed woman - Sawda Bint Zam'ah - to take care of his children.

Note: Sawda Bint Zam'ah was over 50 years old and was older than the Prophet.

d) The fact that the marriage took place in Makkah is also particularly noteworthy. In Makkah the Muslims were weak and the Prophet didn't have the influence and power as he had in the latter stages of his life (I assume you are familiar with the Prophet's migration from Makkah to Medina?). In Makkah he was frequently being dismissed as being a poet, soothsayer or madman, would he then provide fodder to his enemies by veering into the anti-social?

Contracting an "obnoxious marriage" during the height of the Mekkan persecution when the Islamic Faith was still weak would be shooting himself in the foot and would certainly not be in his best interests.

e) There is no record of anyone at that time - Muslim, Mekkan or Jew - ridiculing the Prophet on the basis of marrying Aisha at that young age.

f) I was recently reading the biography of the Prophet by William Muir - a 19th century English critic of the Prophet - and I was surprised that he merely mentioned the Prophet's marriage to Aisha in passing, without raising a storm as he would normally do on other aspects of the Prophet's life. (I must add, I haven't finished the work though).

I believe this issue, probably "escaped" him as people at his time were not as sensitive to the issue of "child marriages" as we are at this time.

Our environment shapes our sensitivities. This is important.

I would be surprised if there was a single Nairaland member who doesn't have an "underage" ancestor at one time or the other.

Regards.

IbrahimB:

No one complained about Aisha's marriage to the Prophet like you said. Aisha's betrothal and marriage to the Prophet was certainly not an "abnormal" thing in those days. Kindly consider the following:

a) Even before Muhammad, Aisha had been betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im whose non-Muslim father objected to the marriage. This fact alone rests the issue that the Prophet's marriage to Aisha was simply one of the Prophet's whimsicalities which even at that time was unusual. (Ref: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubayr_ibn_Mut%27im[/url])

b) On some accounts, it was Khawla bint Hakim who prompted the Prophet to marry again - after the death of his first wife Khadija - specifically to the daughter of his bosom friend, Abubakar who was also the first Caliph of Islam. It's easy to see why Khawla would suggest to the Prophet to marry a virgin, for his second wife, as he had been married to a much older woman for 25 years or so, being now over 50 years of age.

c) On receiving the proposal, the Prophet remarked that Aisha was still "young" being only 6 years at that time (and additionally he was with children who needed a step-mother). This was probably the reason why the consummation of the marriage was delayed till when Aisha was about 9 years old.

While Aisha stayed with her parents, the Prophet got married to yet another widowed woman - Sawda Bint Zam'ah - to take care of his children.

Note: Sawda Bint Zam'ah was over 50 years old and was older than the Prophet.

d) The fact that the marriage took place in Makkah is also particularly noteworthy. In Makkah the Muslims were weak and the Prophet didn't have the influence and power as he had in the latter stages of his life (I assume you are familiar with the Prophet's migration from Makkah to Medina?). In Makkah he was frequently being dismissed as being a poet, soothsayer or madman, would he then provide fodder to his enemies by veering into the anti-social?

Contracting an "obnoxious marriage" during the height of the Mekkan persecution when the Islamic Faith was still weak would be shooting himself in the foot and would certainly not be in his best interests.

e) There is no record of anyone at that time - Muslim, Mekkan or Jew - ridiculing the Prophet on the basis of marrying Aisha at that young age.

f) I was recently reading the biography of the Prophet by William Muir - a 19th century English critic of the Prophet - and I was surprised that he merely mentioned the Prophet's marriage to Aisha in passing, without raising a storm as he would normally do on other aspects of the Prophet's life. (I must add, I haven't finished the work though).

I believe this issue, probably "escaped" him as people at his time were not as sensitive to the issue of "child marriages" as we are at this time.

Our environment shapes our sensitivities. This is important.

I would be surprised if there was a single Nairaland member who doesn't have an "underage" ancestor at one time or the other.

Regards.

I think you mis-understood what I meant. Sino said no one complained about the prophet marriage to Aisha - I said that not correct as Aisha's father wasn't in support of the marriage initially.

On point A, you are a student of Islam, you should know that if backing up anything, wikipedia shouldn't be your source., The Quran and Hadith are there and they are the authoritative text to use. I can log onto wikipedia and change the link you provided.

On point B, you seem to make a mistake. Khawla did not mention Aisha, but rather she said: "the daughter of your friend Abu Bakr", meaning the older daughter Asma, not Aisha. It is more logical for her to mean 18 year old Asma, because Aisha was only 6. But Mohammed choose to marry 6 year old Aisha, why - we would never know.

Is there a moral law in this world (whether in 7th century Arabia or 16th century England), that would allow a 50 year old man marry a 6 year old child? That is the question that puzzles me. Now remember, he married Khadija who was 15 years his Senior, I don't have a problem with that. If he had married a girl of 15 or 18, we wouldn't have a problem with that.

Here is a statement by Abbas Ibn Hisham and Ibn Hajar:

"The Messenger of Allah said, when he saw Um Habib bint Abbas, while she was yet an infant: 'When she reaches the age while I am alive, I will marry her'. At that time, she was 3 years old and he was 60".

Before you claim that I don't know what I am talking about, here are the hadiths for your reference:

Al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-Sahaba, Vol. IV, p. 422 and Rawad al-Unuf, Vol. III, p. 66

On point C & D, they are not related to the topic at hand

On point E, you are incorrect. If I provide a reference from the Hadith showing Abu Bakr questioning the marriage of Mohammed to Aisha - would that be sufficient evidence that there was at least ONE complaint?

What is considered "under-aged". Your approach to this subject has been very very good. Sino tried to justify the fact that Mary was "12" when she married and as a result, it was alright for Mohammed to marry a 6 year old. I told him that 12 and 6 are way apart. A 12 year old can baby-sit and protect a 6 year old. A 12 year old is more matured in nearly every aspect that a 6 year old.

I don't doubt that there were early marriages in Arabia and Europe and even in Africa during that time. However, I question the morality of a "Holy Prophet" marrying a child.

@alexis

alexis: On point E, you are incorrect. If I provide a reference from the Hadith showing Abu Bakr questioning the marriage of Mohammed to Aisha - would that be sufficient evidence that there was at least ONE complaint

Please quote the reference so that I can reply your points together. Thanks.

deols: @pmc01, my question is not on whether Aisha(r.a) was fit for her role but on the practicality of marriage to minors in this era.

Ok, pardon my 'misinterpretation'.
Most twelve year olds (talk less of nine year olds) I can think of today do not fit the bill, I might not consider such move then.
Surely, times have changed and Islam encourages applying wisdom appropriately.
Arguably, Aisha was psychologically prepare for the big task.
The high 'intelligent quotient' of the present ones don't qualify them still.

My sincere apologies once again.

IbrahimB: @alexis


Please quote the reference so that I can reply your points together. Thanks.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18

Narrated ‘Ursa:

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”

Let me answer your last question first:

alexis: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”...

I think you mis-understood what I meant. Sino said no one complained about the prophet marriage to Aisha - I said that not correct as Aisha's father wasn't in support of the marriage initially.

Did you really consider the conversation at all?
First of all, is Abu Bakr The Prophet's brother? No! So why did he say he was the prophet's brother?

A bit of background..

Abu Bakr was the first adult male to become a Muslim and the Prophet had declared him to be a "brother" due to their closeness. Abu Bakr was under the wrong impression that being "brothers" made the marriage unlawful (as Aisha would then be the Prophet's niece). But The Prophet clarified that what he meant was that Abu Bakr was his brother "in religion" - and not by blood - which would have made marriage invalid. The marriages that are unlawful are well spelt out in Q4:23.

Abu Bakr wasn't against the marriage in principle - in fact he was honoured. This was the same person who had spent his entire wealth on the religion, was hand-picked by the Prophet to be his companion during their migration, and who succeeded the Prophet after his death. His fear was that the marriage may be invalid due to his "brotherhood" with the Prophet, a misconception that was later on allayed. If he had opposed Aisha's marriage to the Prophet due to her age, why would he then have betrothed her to Jubair (see next section)?

alexis: On point A, you are a student of Islam, you should know that if backing up anything, wikipedia shouldn't be your source., The Quran and Hadith are there and they are the authoritative text to use. I can log onto wikipedia and change the link you provided.

You are right. But Wikipedia does provide references as well, so people cannot just mangle a page. Her earlier betrothal to Jubayr is a historical fact. Martin Ling has detailed this in his biography of the Prophet (page 106). If you wish to verify this for yourself, I would send you a copy of the book. A google of "Jubayr bin Mut'im Aisha" should provide you with more information in any case.

alexis: On point B, you seem to make a mistake. Khawla did not mention Aisha, but rather she said: "the daughter of your friend Abu Bakr", meaning the older daughter Asma, not Aisha. It is more logical for her to mean 18 year old Asma, because Aisha was only 6. But Mohammed choose to marry 6 year old Aisha, why - we would never know.

What historical evidence do you have that Khawla meant Asma and not Aisha?! If Khawla had meant "Asma" and the she discovered during their conversation that the Prophet had misunderstood which "daughter of Abubakar" she was talking about wouldn't she have clarified her meaning in their conversation instead of setting out on her way to meet Abubakar?

In any case - not that it matters - Khawla did mention Aisha when she proposed the two names saying "Either 'A'ishah the daughter of Abu Bakr or Sawdah the daughter of Zarn'ah." Probably that was another version of the same story. (Ref available)

In any case, there is a good chance that Asma was already married at that time anyway. The Prophet was betrothed to Aisha 2 years before the Migration while we know Asma was already married before the migration.

alexis: Is there a moral law in this world (whether in 7th century Arabia or 16th century England), that would allow a 50 year old man marry a 6 year old child? That is the question that puzzles me. Now remember, he married Khadija who was 15 years his Senior, I don't have a problem with that. If he had married a girl of 15 or 18, we wouldn't have a problem with that.

(Actually, it will be more accurate to say it was a betrothal rather than a marriage as cohabitation and consummation was deferred until she was 9 years of age)

That's by the way.

So, is there any moral law in this world that would allow a 90 year old man on his last strengths to marry a 12 year old girl?

alexis: What is considered "under-aged". Your approach to this subject has been very very good. Sino tried to justify the fact that Mary was "12" when she married and as a result, it was alright for Mohammed to marry a 6 year old. I told him that 12 and 6 are way apart. A 12 year old can baby-sit and protect a 6 year old. A 12 year old is more matured in nearly every aspect that a 6 year old.

You're right in that a 12 year old is more matured than a 6 or 9 year old, but if I understand Sino correctly, it is the fact that both the marriage to a 12 year old and marriage to a 9 year old are aberrations in today's world.

But should we judge the historical people based on what is the norm now? Even they, would view many of the things that we do nowadays as aberrations.

alexis: I don't doubt that there were early marriages in Arabia and Europe and even in Africa during that time. However, I question the morality of a "Holy Prophet" marrying a child.

You say this because you are a Child of the 21st century. You grew up seeing your sisters, female friends and relatives finish primary, secondary and university before getting married. The age of marriage is even pushed further, as there's greater societal pressure on women to be gainfully employed just like their male peers.

The age of marriage is fluctuating - just some few years back the Cross River government under Donald Duke raised the marriage age to 21 years for example making it illegal - and probably strange in the long run - for an 18 year old to be seen getting married, say, in 100 years from now.

That has been what you've always known; what you've grown up to hold as "normal". I understand your difficulty in grappling with how one could get married at such a young age.

How much different would your view have been had you been born a millennium ago? Where you grew up and found your 10 year old elder sister already engaged to an older man? It's difficult to tell, but I don't think you would have felt so strongly about this had that been the NORM all around you.

Like others have mentioned, girls in those times didn't face the same challenges as girls of nowadays do - of getting secular education and earning a job. I would imagine it is even more likely that physical development - rather than a person's age - was the yardstick that was used to determine if a person was "ripe" for marriage or not.

Let me end with a quote from a "Short History of Human Marriage" by Edvard Westermarck,

But at various times very youthful marriages have prevailed among the Jews: by the thirteenth century a large proportion of Jewish girls were married during their minority, and in the second half of the seventeenth century the bridegroom was frequently not more than ten years old and the bride was younger still (Page 40)