truthman2012: @golpen

1. Which books revealed to the past prophets is the verse referring to? As I said before, in order to avoid lengthening this discussions, always don't leave room for suspense.

2. Native intelligence is not applicable to spiritual things as they are far beyong human imaginations. Can you imagine or feel how a witch siphones blood without a pipe? So you can not have my feelings if you are not in my spiritual condition.

There are two occasions when christians speak in tongues. When praying and when prophesying. The whole church can speak in tongues at the same time when praying. 1Cor. 14:27 is talking about when prayer has been stopped and suddenly some people begin to speak in tongues aloud, wanting to prophesy. It should be done orderly in order not to create confusion.

3. The NT is the spiritual fulfilment of the OT. The problems people had in the OT is what Jesus came to solve. The fault was in the way they were implementing the laws. Jesus came to summarize the so many laws they had into two: love your God with all your heart and love your neigbours, and with that all the laws are fulfiled.

I have told you individuals' opinions are not separated from the words of God and both are called the Scriptures. If in the Bible it is written '' And Samuel said....''. Is that God's word or Samuel's?

John 5:31 - Is talking about God testifying (bearing WITNESS) to Jesus Ministry and not Himself bearing His own WITNESS.

John 8:14 - Is talking about RECORDS not WITNESS. Records here means PROFILE. Jesus profile: where He came from and where He was going etc.

I notice all you are bringing up have been repeated severally by other people on this site, which I had attended to.

golpen: @truthman

I guess its my pleasure to share time with you again. Indeed I'm aware of how well familiar you are about the qur'an, but I'm beginning to doubt how well you have come to understand it over the years. I'm very sure this is going to be a long threaded argument, but as to whosoever wishes to contribute, the bottom line, according to the qur'anic quote you have given above, should be "is the bible truely or completely the words of Allah(God)?"

Before I proceed in my claims, I'll like you to give me answers to these questions sire.

(1): how does the verses in the qur'an which you have quoted above testify that the bible is truely or completely the words of Allah (God))?

(2): I have my questions about the bible as to it being completely the words of God...how are you willing to give me your convincing answers.

(3): what about the contradictions and the plagiarisms; can God's words logically, basically or analytically contradict?

I'll be driving to my points when you give me answers to these and if you need some references,citations and quotes, I'll be very glad to give it out sire.

Thanks, God bless you sir.

Bookmarked...

truthman2012: @golpen

1. Which books revealed to the past prophets is the verse referring to? As I said before, in order to avoid lengthening this discussions, always don't leave room for suspense.

2. Native intelligence is not applicable to spiritual things as they are far beyong human imaginations. Can you imagine or feel how a witch siphones blood without a pipe? So you can not have my feelings if you are not in my spiritual condition.

There are two occasions when christians speak in tongues. When praying and when prophesying. The whole church can speak in tongues at the same time when praying. 1Cor. 14:27 is talking about when prayer has been stopped and suddenly some people begin to speak in tongues aloud, wanting to prophesy. It should be done orderly in order not to create confusion.

3. The NT is the spiritual fulfilment of the OT. The problems people had in the OT is what Jesus came to solve. The fault was in the way they were implementing the laws. Jesus came to summarize the so many laws they had into two: love your God with all your heart and love your neigbours, and with that all the laws are fulfiled.

I have told you individuals' opinions are not separated from the words of God and both are called the Scriptures. If in the Bible it is written '' And Samuel said....''. Is that God's word or Samuel's?

John 5:31 - Is talking about God testifying (bearing WITNESS) to Jesus Ministry and not Himself bearing His own WITNESS.

John 8:14 - Is talking about RECORDS not WITNESS. Records here means PROFILE. Jesus profile: where He came from and where He was going etc.

I notice all you are bringing up have been repeated severally by other people on this site, which I had attended to.

Uyi Iredia:

Good questions. The same must also apply to the Q'uran.

truthman2012: @ Chromablesimple

Thank you for your observation. Let me start by asking you: was the writter of the Book of Genesis not aware that Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit? The event had taken place before he wrote so he knew Adam did not die the same day.
That God said ''in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'' does not mean Adam would die the same day but will surely die.

I believe the reason Adam didn't die the same day was because he was yet to fulfil the purpose of God for his life. God commanded them to bear children and fill the earth and that had not being fulfilled.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, TILL THOU RETURN UNTO THE GROUND (i.e die); for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

''......TILL thou return'' means Adam was not to die the same day, but would not have died at all if not for the disobedience.

God's intention was for man to live eternally. But He told Adam that eating the forbidden fruit would cause his death. That God intended them to live eternally is evidenced by:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil and now, lest he put his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and LIVE FOREVER.

The tree of life was among other fruits they have been eating and once eaten, no death. God had to prevent him from eating it again, otherwise he would not die again. That would have meant man would live eternally with the knowledge of sin and disobedience to God.

Chromablesimple: truthman d bible u ve quoted to support ur claim was not referring to Adam, it was separately saying sometin else in another content. you don't understand what contention here is all about, it is all about christians total deviation from d pure Jesus's teachin. From d rest uncorrupted part of the bible we can still c dat most of d Jesus teaching are not follow by today' s christians. If d Quran had not been revealed, no one would have notice d obvious corruption and dogma in d bible, believe me I wouldn't ve have any choice but to follow d bible but thank God for the Quran. Can we consider some opinion to signify Jesus teaching

The mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) he came to fulfill the Law:
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
(The Bible, Mathew 5: 17-20)
God sent Jesus (pbuh):
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus mission in the following verses:
and the word whic h ye hear is not mine, but the Fathers which has sent me. (The Bible, John 14:24)
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. (The Bible,John 17:3)
Jesus refuted even a remote suggestion of his divinity. Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God; but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
The above statements from the Bible refute the Christian dogma of divinity of Jesus and of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pubh). Jesus (pbuh) exhorts keeping the commandments as the means to achieve salvation.
( The Bible, Mathew 5: 17-20)
Truthman, don't tell any muslim about Jesus, we know him. You pple are only idolizing him as against his teaching and a violation of the GOD Almighty. Cheer bro, if an offense comes out of the truth, better an offense come than the truth be concealed.

truthman2012:

You seem to be muddling things up. I cannot understand which of my post you are reacting to by yours.

What you said first was Adam not dying, which I have explained. The next thing is you talking about the Law, Jesus Divinity and so on. How are they related? Pls I think I would not be able to cope with your style. Thank you.

miftaudeen: @ Truthman2012, you ran away from my trend, you said that you prayed for ss patient and a bro. with disease and they were ill from their illness. i had organised a ss patient and blind man for you, they are waiting for your miracle. o ni jibiti

miftaudeen: @ Truthman2012, you ran away from my trend, you said that you prayed for ss patient and a bro. with disease and they were ill from their illness. i had organised a ss patient and blind man for you, they are waiting for your miracle. o ni jibiti

abubello: @op Look at these clear contradictions in the bible.

1. In the New Testament, there are contradictions between the genealogies of Jesus given in the first chapter of Matthew and the third chapter of Luke. Both genealogies begin with Jesus’ father, who is identified as Joseph (which is curious, given that Mary was supposedly impregnated by the Holy Ghost). But Matthew says Joseph’s father was Jacob, while Luke claims he was Heli. Matthew lists 26 generations between Jesus and King David, whereas Luke records 41. Matthew runs Jesus’ line of descent through David’s son Solomon, while Luke has it going through David’s son Nathan.

2. The story of Jesus' birth is also contradictory. Matthew 2:13-15 depicts Joseph and Mary as fleeing to Egypt with the baby Jesus immediately after the wise men from the east had brought gifts. But Luke 2:22-40 claims that after the birth of Jesus, his parents remained in Bethlehem for the time of Mary’s purification (which was 40 days, under the Mosaic law). Afterwards, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem "to present him to the Lord," and then returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke mentions no journey into Egypt or visit by wise men from the east.

3. Concerning the death of Judas, the disloyal disciple, Matthew 27:5 states he took the money he had received for betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and "went and hanged himself." To the contrary, Acts 1:18 claims Judas used the money to purchase a field and "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

4. In describing Jesus being led to his execution, John 19:17 recounts that he carried his own cross. But Mark 15:21-23 disagrees by saying a man called Simon carried the cross.

5. As for the crucifixion, Matthew 27:44 tells us Jesus was taunted by both criminals who were being crucified with him. But Luke 23:39-43 relates that only one of the criminals taunted Jesus, the other criminal rebuked the one who was doing the taunting, and Jesus told the criminal who was defending him, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

6. Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." John 19:30 alleges the last words were, "It is finished."

7. There are even contradictions in the accounts of the resurrection – the supposed event that is the very foundation of the Christian religion. Mark 16:2 states that on the day of the resurrection, certain women arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun. But John 20:1 informs us they arrived when it was yet dark. Luke 24:2 describes the tomb as open when the women arrived, whereas Matthew 28:1-2 indicates it was closed. Mark 16:5 declares that the women saw a young man at the tomb, Luke 24:4 says they saw two men, Matthew 28:2 reports they saw an angel, and John 20:11-12 claims they saw two angels.

8. Also in the resurrection stories, there are contradictions as to the identity of the women who came to the tomb,[7] whether the men or angels the women saw were inside or outside the tomb,[8] whether the men or angels were standing or sitting,[9] and whether Mary Magdalene recognized the' risen' Jesus when he first appeared to her.

9. As a final example of a New Testament contradiction, the conflicting accounts of Paul’s conversion can be cited. Acts 9:7 states that when Jesus called Paul to preach the gospel, the men who were with Paul heard a voice but saw no man. According to Acts 22:9, however, the men saw a light but didn't hear the voice speaking to Paul.
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truthman2012: @ goipen

THE BOOKS: TORAH & INJEEL

I'm happy islam accepts Torah and Injeel as words of Allah. And Allah said nobody or nothing can change His word, meaning He would surely protect them.

It is a surprise that Allah is unable to protect them as He said, otherwise Torah and Injeel would not have been lost or changed. Do you know where the Torah and Injeel are today? They are lost and Allah was looking. Each time you people say Taurat and Injeel have changed or lost, you by so declare Allah's powerlessness.

SPEAKING IN TONGUES

I maintain that the whole church or many people can speak in tongues at the same time except when prophesying. Even the case of prophesying one by one is not a law but for orderliness. Paul was not in position to promulgate law in Christiendom, he could only give an advice.
Look at Acts 2:1-4 you will see where many people were speaking in tongues at the same time.

HUMAN ERRORS

Solomon, David or Whoever were not angels. They were humans. Or are you attributing their errors to God? Every imperfection by MEN in the OT has been corrected in the NT by Jesus.

You talk about the provocative indecency of Solomon and David. How does that affect the integrity of God or the Bible? Do you expect the Bible to cover them? Which one is better - covering or exposing evil acts? Which one gives the Bible the integrity expected of it? I can read them to my children to learn from their mistakes.

''.... Would you call them the UNCHANGEABLE word of God...'' Were the indecent statements made by God?

Even in Quran you don't query Allah indecent statements. A higher level of holiness is expected from God than man. Allah commanded Muhammad to take Zaid's wife (Quran 33:37-38). Do you call Allah a decent and holy God? Even Muhammad himself was reluctant but Allah insisted. What a 'god'. Where did you see the Holy God give such command to any of His prophets? Allah is the Greatest among His co-gods? Many verses in the Quran say Allah is the Greatest.

truthman2012:

This post is too long to answer. It will be like trying to author a whole book. Some of them I have answered before, especially on Paul's conversion - seeing the light or not seeing the light.

Nobody claims the Bible dropped from heaven, each Book had an author. They are records of what happened at a particular time. The Bible is made up of: 1. God spoken Word i.e ....And God said..... 2. Inspired Word i.e thus said the Lord. 3. Individual Speakers' Opinions. Whatever contradictions people allege there are in the Bible they were Individual Speakers' Opinions, which might differ one from the other, not God's.

You have the same thing in Islam, which you call hadiths. The opinions of hadith authors sometimes differred from one another.

On Jesus being carried to Egypt, was he there up to 40 days before he returned?

This is all I can say for now.

abubello: [b][/b]

You admitted the Bible contains "individual speakers opinion" and yet you insist the bible is not corrupt!
If a book that is supposed to be the word of God contains differeent opinions of human beings is that not corruptrion?

You claim my post is too long, ok, kindly address the first three contradictions

abubello: [b][/b]

You admitted the Bible contains "individual speakers opinion" and yet you insist the bible is not corrupt!
If a book that is supposed to be the word of God contains differeent opinions of human beings is that not corruptrion?

You claim my post is too long, ok, kindly address the first three contradictions

truthman2012: @ golpen

I think this is the last time I will discuss with you. We started well and I perceive it is not going to end well, which I predicted at the begining. It is an insult for me to trade words with you. Like I said to your brother abubello, I am not into competition with anybody, you are free to believe anything you want. But before then let me drop some things:

1. You seem to deliberately fail to understand that Christians' prayer is a loud prayer and there is a difference between praying and prophesying. You can say we are insane, what matters to us is the result we are getting.

2. I put it to you that Allah failed to protect Torah and Injeel if it is not the OT and NT because they are nowhere to be found today. Or do you have a copy? What then did Allah mean by saying His word cannot change? But He watched His words being thrown away. Even the quran is not a stable revelations. Allah kept changing them till Muhammad's death (Pickthall 16:101). Your islamic scholars say there is no abrogation in their defensive error when Allah himself says he did abrogate (Pickthall 2:106). What a confusion. Yet with all these you people still have the gut to accuse the Bible of contradictions. A situation where Allah was making mistakes and correcting his own error is worse than human error in the Bible.

The muslims that believe they have the original words of Allah have nothing to show for it other than Allah's writings on rocks, trees, just anywhere, which has no benefit to humanity. Miracle is God's response to man's prayer. Because muslims cannot pray and experience miracles by holding God to His words as the word they have is the counterfeit that cannot produce miracle, they say every miracle is from Satan and God has none.

So there were no more men around to mary Zaid's wife? What a funny defence? Where did other women of that time get their husbands as Muhammad was the only man available. Disgusting act. What was Muhammad's problem with women? He liked anything in hijab. Prophet of god indeed.

truthman2012: @ golpen

I think this is the last time I will discuss with you. We started well and I perceive it is not going to end well, which I predicted at the begining. It is an insult for me to trade words with you. Like I said to your brother abubello, I am not into competition with anybody, you are free to believe anything you want. But before then let me drop some things:

1. You seem to deliberately fail to understand that Christians' prayer is a loud prayer and there is a difference between praying and prophesying. You can say we are insane, what matters to us is the result we are getting.

2. I put it to you that Allah failed to protect Torah and Injeel if it is not the OT and NT because they are nowhere to be found today. Or do you have a copy? What then did Allah mean by saying His word cannot change? But He watched His words being thrown away. Even the quran is not a stable revelations. Allah kept changing them till Muhammad's death (Pickthall 16:101). Your islamic scholars say there is no abrogation in their defensive error when Allah himself says he did abrogate (Pickthall 2:106). What a confusion. Yet with all these you people still have the gut to accuse the Bible of contradictions. A situation where Allah was making mistakes and correcting his own error is worse than human error in the Bible.

The muslims that believe they have the original words of Allah have nothing to show for it other than Allah's writings on rocks, trees, just anywhere, which has no benefit to humanity. Miracle is God's response to man's prayer. Because muslims cannot pray and experience miracles by holding God to His words as the word they have is the counterfeit that cannot produce miracle, they say every miracle is from Satan and God has none.

So there were no more men around to mary Zaid's wife? What a funny defence? Where did other women of that time get their husbands as Muhammad was the only man available. Disgusting act. What was Muhammad's problem with women? He liked anything in hijab. Prophet of god indeed.

truthman2012: @ golpen

I think this is the last time I will discuss with you. We started well and I perceive it is not going to end well, which I predicted at the begining. It is an insult for me to trade words with you. Like I said to your brother abubello, I am not into competition with anybody, you are free to believe anything you want. But before then let me drop some things:

1. You seem to deliberately fail to understand that Christians' prayer is a loud prayer and there is a difference between praying and prophesying. You can say we are insane, what matters to us is the result we are getting.

2. I put it to you that Allah failed to protect Torah and Injeel if it is not the OT and NT because they are nowhere to be found today. Or do you have a copy? What then did Allah mean by saying His word cannot change? But He watched His words being thrown away. Even the quran is not a stable revelations. Allah kept changing them till Muhammad's death (Pickthall 16:101). Your islamic scholars say there is no abrogation in their defensive error when Allah himself says he did abrogate (Pickthall 2:106). What a confusion. Yet with all these you people still have the gut to accuse the Bible of contradictions. A situation where Allah was making mistakes and correcting his own error is worse than human error in the Bible.

The muslims that believe they have the original words of Allah have nothing to show for it other than Allah's writings on rocks, trees, just anywhere, which has no benefit to humanity. Miracle is God's response to man's prayer. Because muslims cannot pray and experience miracles by holding God to His words as the word they have is the counterfeit that cannot produce miracle, they say every miracle is from Satan and God has none.

So there were no more men around to mary Zaid's wife? What a funny defence? Where did other women of that time get their husbands as Muhammad was the only man available. Disgusting act. What was Muhammad's problem with women? He liked anything in hijab. Prophet of god indeed.

truthman2012:

I will not act under your command. You are not my boss. Your brother golpen put forward 101 of what he called contradictions in the Bible. I am still working on that you too came up with your volume of contradictions.

When I post anything on NL is for all to reason with it. It is not my business whether or not you believe it but you have been told. So I'm not into competition with anybody. YOU ARE FREE TO HOLD ON TO YOUR BELIEF. Thank you.