Pursuant to maclatunji's request to discuss this matter on another thread here we are.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Because of that Christians generally only worship in secret within private homes.[3] Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited.[3] These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others.[3]

The Saudi Arabian Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) prohibits the practice of any religion other than Islam.[3]Conversion of a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy,[3] a crime punishable by death if the accused does not recant.[3]The Government does not permit non-Muslim clergy to enter the country for the purpose of conducting religious services.[3]

Question is how does this refusal to allow other Faiths to practice in public reflect on Islam's call for tolerance?

Let me help you out:

Christian community today (In Saudi Arabia)
There are more than a million Roman Catholics in Saudi Arabia. Most of them are expatriate Filipinos and Indians who work there, but who do not have the citizenship of Saudi Arabia. The percentage of Christians of all denominations among the about 1.2 million Filipinos in Saudi Arabia likely exceeds 90%.[3] There are also Christians from Canada, the United States of America, Italy, South Korea, Ireland, the United Kingdom, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Kenya, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and as well a number of Christians from sub-Saharan countries who are working in the Saudi Kingdom.

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Because of that Christians generally only worship in secret within private homes.[3] Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited. These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Saudi_Arabia

That is from the same source you quoted from. What can we understand from this piece of information?

1. That Christians who are very religious (Roman Catholics) still exceed a million in Saudi Arabia.

2. That there are legislated restrictions on how these Christians or people of other faiths practice their religion in Saudi Arabia.

3. That this over a million Christians do not mind leaving their country where one can easily infer they are "free to practice" their religion for Saudi Arabia to live and work in spite of these restrictions.

4. That the Saudi government through this policy has managed to accommodate Christians whilst still preserving the sanctity of the holiest Islamic sites within its territory.

5. That for several years, the Saudi government has managed to develop the country whilst still maintaining its position and legacy has host of Islam's holiest sites and managing to employ over a million Christians with little or no strife.

6. That country's do make laws to suit their specific needs and peculiarities which is what the Saudi government has effectively and successfully done.

7. That it can be said that Christians in Saudi Arabia do not make a big deal out of this policy is an indication that it is not "madness" after all and does work.

Thank you.

I have no dispute with any point you made however they do not really answer the question. While those Christians in Saudi are employed freely their religion can not be practiced freely in public. Is this the face of Islamic tolerance? Is this what we should expect if (hypothetically) Islam became the religion of every nation-state?

Lord_Reed: I have no dispute with any point you made however they do not really answer the question. While those Christians in Saudi are employed freely their religion can not be practiced freely in public. Is this the face of Islamic tolerance? Is this what we should expect if (hypothetically) Islam became the religion of every nation-state?

There are loads of Christians in Muslim countries and history does show that non-Muslims lived and worked in Muslim states. It is not a matter of me not understanding you, it is about me not posting what you like.

@Op; while i am not a fan of the family controlled saudi arabian government, i will give them the credit about their good effort at least on the face of it; obeying Allah The Almighty by preserving the purity of Makka and Madina openly for muslims.

The Land of The Prophet [sa] is at least forbidden on the face of it [what the prophetic office of each prophet preached against]; not worshiping God Almighty Allah Alone.

Tolerance has a limited and it does not mean that you are to lose sight of your aim. The focus is maintaining the Land of Muhammad [sa] is purely for The Worshipers of God Allah The Irresistible. If it were possible for a non catholic to live in the Vatican city, I am certain that they will not be able to worship openly. Yet there is no divine command to establish Vatican city or the actions it takes or will take so that only catholic can worship openly there.

maclatunji:

There are loads of Christians in Muslim countries and history does show that non-Muslims lived and worked in Muslim states. It is not a matter of me not understanding you, it is about me not posting what you like.

Where did I say anything about understanding? I asked a question you didn't give an answer to so why the reference to understanding?

RoyPCain: @Op; while i am not a fan of the family controlled saudi arabian government, i will give them the credit about their good effort at least on the face of it; obeying Allah The Almighty by preserving the purity of Makka and Madina openly for muslims.

The Land of The Prophet [sa] is at least forbidden on the face of it [what the prophetic office of each prophet preached against]; not worshiping God Almighty Allah Alone.

Tolerance has a limited and it does not mean that you are to lose sight of your aim. The focus is maintaining the Land of Muhammad [sa] is purely for The Worshipers of God Allah The Irresistible. If it were possible for a non catholic to live in the Vatican city, I am certain that they will not be able to worship openly. Yet there is no divine command to establish Vatican city or the actions it takes or will take so that only catholic can worship openly there.

The Vatican is just a 'city' within Rome and is purely a religious grouping. It be will unreasonable to demand a mosque in the Vatican same way it would be unreasonable to demand a church built within a mosque complex. Saudi however is large nation-state, Mecca and Medina doesn't cover the entire geographical location of the Saudi nation so I fail to see how the Vatican stacks up as an analogue seeing that there is a mosque in Rome the same city in which the Vatican is located.

^The Vatican is a state regardless of its size. It is a very simple position you are in, you want to read certain responses which you are not going to get.

Hence, there is no need to go round in circles with you.

Lord_Reed: I have no dispute with any point you made however they do not really answer the question. While those Christians in Saudi are employed freely their religion can not be practiced freely in public. Is this the face of Islamic tolerance? Is this what we should expect if (hypothetically) Islam became the religion of every nation-state?

Since you speak of tolerance, show us the face of christian tolerance
Saudi Arabia is a theocracy; Nigeria is not (at least not officially)
So how come in a non-theocratic Nigerian state headed by a Christian president, we don't see the type of tolerance you preach?
In the name of unity Muslims cannot have a privately-funded Islamic Bank
But the Nigerian state funded a National Christmas Tree the commissioning of which was attended by members of the diplomatic corps
Muslims are prohibited from building a mosque in Rivers State university but the same school built churches
Officially, there is a law against preaching inside buses, Christians disobey the law and even try to pointedly provoke non-christians (particularly Muslims) while preaching
Above all in schools funded by the state (tax payer money) muslims are not allowed to wear Hijab, contrary to the constitution
Muslim employees of companies headed by Christians are often forced to attend fellowship; muslims employers don' ask christian employees to perform salat

maclatunji: ^The Vatican is a state regardless of its size. It is a very simple position you are in, you want to read certain responses which you are not going to get.

Hence, there is no need to go round in circles with you.

So a land mass completely devoted to religious centre is intolerance to you? Have I said that Islamic holy sites should have churches built on them? Saudi has lots of landmass that cannot be referred to as holy sites so how is it unreasonable to expect that some of it can be used by others for their own religious devotion?

BetaThings:

Since you speak of tolerance, show us the face of christian tolerance
Saudi Arabia is a theocracy; Nigeria is not (at least not officially)
So how come in a non-theocratic Nigerian state headed by a Christian president, we don't see the type of tolerance you preach?
In the name of unity Muslims cannot have a privately-funded Islamic Bank
But the Nigerian state funded a National Christmas Tree the commissioning of which was attended by members of the diplomatic corps
Muslims are prohibited from building a mosque in Rivers State university but the same school built churches
Officially, there is a law against preaching inside buses, Christians disobey the law and even try to pointedly provoke non-christians (particularly Muslims) while preaching
Above all in schools funded by the state (tax payer money) muslims are not allowed to wear Hijab, contrary to the constitution
Muslim employees of companies headed by Christians are often forced to attend fellowship; muslims employers don' ask christian employees to perform salat

Pardon me but is there any state in Nigeria were Christians have said no mosque will be built? In an institution were they have recognised uniforms why should hijab be permitted? Are female Muslim police women wearing hijab? Female Armed Forces? Do those organisations were that are made to go fellowship stop Muslims from salat?

that child, accusing me of been paid by Iran for preaching my Shia faith,should ask Maclatunji how much he is been paid by the Saudi Wahhabi/Salafist authoritarian monarchy for defending it (i.e. not only preaching but actually defending a foreign government and its discriminatory policies).

it is very funny that someone above is calling Saudi Arabia a "theocracy".monarchy and theocracy are two different things,and monarchy have no basis and no place in Islam,be you as Sunni as Salaheddine or as Shia as Ayatollah Khomeini.

in Saudi Arabia,it is not only a matter of proselytization been banned and Christians not allowed to preach.that is fine and does not contradict freedom of religion which Islam itself promotes.there is nothing against Islam if someone from Christian background worship the Christian way.but in Saudi Arabia if you are found wearing a crucifix,you are arrested.and please I am as Muslim as anyone can be,do not tell me all of Saudi Arabia is Makkah and Madina.the Saudi regime is oppressive.do Christians celebrate Christmas in Saudi Arabia ? no! we muslims should not be hypocritical and defend the indefensible because the criticism is coming from a Christian end which can be as intolerant and oppressive towards muslims.the unfortunate case for Saudis is that the regime is a monarchy.otherwise look at what Egyptians (mostly Sunnis) last month did to the salafist/Wahhabi president,just after a year of election.they threw him out.

and it is very ironic that while talking about freedom,the most here (either out of innocence and lack of knowledge, or indifference and hypocrisy) have not made word about the Shia in the oil rich eastern province who are shot,humiliated and oppressed.no schools,no mosques even in their region,no employment (if you are Saudi shia,no employment),and death.

ALL OF YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO THE BELOW BEFORE YOU TYPE A WORD TO KNOW THE FEAR AND OPPRESSION THE SAUDI REGIME SHOWS ITS OWN CITIZENS:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb-OSh5Hnvw

^^^^True talk.
salaam Lagoshia & all.

@Lagosshia, #LOL.

Love or hate the Saudi government, you cannot deny its efficiency. As for the tolerance issue, I think you are crying more than the bereaved here. Let the foreigners cry now before you pat them on the head and say: "sorry".

@Usisky wa alaykum salam.

maclatunji: @Lagosshia, #LOL.

Love or hate the Saudi government, you cannot deny its efficiency. As for the tolerance issue, I think you are crying more than the bereaved here. Let the foreigners cry now before you pat them on the head and say: "sorry".

@Usisky wa alaykum salam.

I am not crying.i posted a video so we get to know what Saudis themselves are experiencing.i am only setting the facts straight.there are too many wrong ideas,either out of a deliberate attempt to mislead the uninformed or out of religious zeal to defend Islam,also by the uninformed who think the Saudi regime (or it likes) represent islam and muslims.

talking about efficiency,a regime that controls the wealth found in Arabia have no excuse not to be efficient,even upon corruption,plundering and mismanagement.i am not making things up.look at the Saudi princes who are over 20,000 and all of them get lavish lifestyles at the expense of the Saudis,who still suffer from poverty (read about poverty in Saudi Arabia).read about the lifestyles the royals lead -drinking,gambling and prostitution in Europe and around the world.the same happens in other gulf kingdoms.they only implement their distorted version of shariah law and stringent rules upon the poor,weak and helpless masses.they live above the sharia.last I read about the daughter of the Qatari PM and foreign minister,who is an emir and a member of the Qatari royal family.she was holidaying with Paris Hilton.with all due respect to Paris Hilton as a non-muslim,but is the daughter of monarch in a muslim nation,who wants to be seen as a face of muslims,be accompanying Paris Hilton on her trips? even non-muslims are decent enough not to let their children watch her shows on TV.how much more we who call ourselves muslims and are supposed to be "the best nation Allah made for the benefit of mankind".all I am saying is let no muslim or non-muslim think that criticism of any monarch who is ruling a muslim country (not by the choice of the people) is criticism of islam or muslims.it is not the case.and we muslims should be honest and plain in explaining things and taking note of the details,which we often neglect and fall into errors and misconceptions even about our own religion and co-religionists. monarchy have no basis in Islam,and if at all it is un-Islamic.

usisky: ^^^^True talk.
salaam Lagoshia & all.

my brother,Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

Lord_Reed:

So a land mass completely devoted to religious centre is intolerance to you? Have I said that Islamic holy sites should have churches built on them? Saudi has lots of landmass that cannot be referred to as holy sites so how is it unreasonable to expect that some of it can be used by others for their own religious devotion?

I won't go in line with your weak excuse of exempting the vatican from the accusations you lay against saudi. As the owner of your house, you have the choice to choose the type of person that enters into it, you make your choices on many issues for yourself and even if you have your way, choose the kind of friends your child makes. The vatican and saudi have the same ground on this and the land mass is not an excuse. We have every possibility that the same ground will be stood if the vatican was as large in mass as saudi.

Nobody should criticise you for what decision you make to suit your own self, how much less a decision made by several good heads to protect the image of a whole country.

Lord_Reed:

Pardon me but is there any state in Nigeria were Christians have said no mosque will be built? In an institution were they have recognised uniforms why should hijab be permitted? Are female Muslim police women wearing hijab? Female Armed Forces? Do those organisations were that are made to go fellowship stop Muslims from salat?

On the no mosque issue, @betathings was referring to a university in rivers state where a mosque has been denied the muslim students of the school.

The wearing of hijab, making a slight change in the uniform makes it a sub of the uniform (the muslims students' dressing) and doesn't go in anyway to affect the activities of the school. That is why a man in the armed force is allowed to keep his beards because he is devout and he still participates actively in the force.

Why should that organisation try to compel them to go to fellowship. I went to loyola college in ibadan, though I was a day student. The school was a catholic mission school before the state government took over it. Still the christians have not shown a pinch of the tolerance your talking about when they forcefully drive the muslim boarding students to the chapel for morning mass. Even as a day student, they made us act like them, regardless the religion. A student who doesn't stand still for angelus is surely in hot soup. Even christians that don't belong to catholism also complain.

Lord_Reed:

Pardon me but is there any state in Nigeria were Christians have said no mosque will be built? In an institution were they have recognised uniforms why should hijab be permitted? Are female Muslim police women wearing hijab? Female Armed Forces? Do those organisations were that are made to go fellowship stop Muslims from salat?

After showing your hypocrisy here, I see no reason for you to keep talking.

You are obviously bias.

Lord_Reed:

Pardon me but is there any state in Nigeria were Christians have said no mosque will be built? In an institution were they have recognised uniforms why should hijab be permitted? Are female Muslim police women wearing hijab? Female Armed Forces? Do those organisations were that are made to go fellowship stop Muslims from salat?

On the no mosque issue, @betathings was referring to a university in rivers state where a mosque has been denied the muslim students of the school.

The wearing of hijab, making a slight change in the uniform makes it a sub of the uniform (the muslims students' dressing) and doesn't go in anyway to affect the activities of the school. That is why a man in the armed force is allowed to keep his beards because he is devout and he still participates actively in the force.

Why should that organisation try to compel them to go to fellowship. I went to loyola college in ibadan, though I was a day student. The school was a catholic mission school before the state government took over it. Still the christians have not shown a pinch of the tolerance your talking about when they forcefully drive the muslim boarding students to the chapel for morning mass. Even as a day student, they made us act like them, regardless the religion. A student who doesn't stand still for angelus is surely in hot soup. Even christians that don't belong to catholism also complain.

LagosShia:

I am not crying.i posted a video so we get to know what Saudis themselves are experiencing.i am only setting the facts straight.there are too many wrong ideas,either out of a deliberate attempt to mislead the uninformed or out of religious zeal to defend Islam,also by the uninformed who think the Saudi regime (or it likes) represent islam and muslims.

talking about efficiency,a regime that controls the wealth found in Arabia have no excuse not to be efficient,even upon corruption,plundering and mismanagement.i am not making things up.look at the Saudi princes who are over 20,000 and all of them get lavish lifestyles at the expense of the Saudis,who still suffer from poverty (read about poverty in Saudi Arabia).read about the lifestyles the royals lead -drinking,gambling and prostitution in Europe and around the world.the same happens in other gulf kingdoms.they only implement their distorted version of shariah law and stringent rules upon the poor,weak and helpless masses.they live above the sharia.last I read about the daughter of the Qatari PM and foreign minister,who is an emir and a member of the Qatari royal family.she was holidaying with Paris Hilton.with all due respect to Paris Hilton as a non-muslim,but is the daughter of monarch in a muslim nation,who wants to be seen as a face of muslims,be accompanying Paris Hilton on her trips? even non-muslims are decent enough not to let their children watch her shows on TV.how much more we who call ourselves muslims and are supposed to be "the best nation Allah made for the benefit of mankind".all I am saying is let no muslim or non-muslim think that criticism of any monarch who is ruling a muslim country (not by the choice of the people) is criticism of islam or muslims.it is not the case.and we muslims should be honest and plain in explaining things and taking note of the details,which we often neglect and fall into errors and misconceptions even about our own religion and co-religionists. monarchy have no basis in Islam,and if at all it is un-Islamic.

You have time sha.

LagosShia has a point or two though.

I have a very big problem with discriminating against fellow Muslims based on their creed.


Islam disallows injustice to any and everyone, be they Muslims or not.

There should never be compulsion in religion.

deols: LagosShia has a point or two though.

I have a very big problem with discriminating against fellow Muslims based on their creed.


Islam disallows injustice to any and everyone, be they Muslims or not.

There should never be compulsion in religion.

May Allah (swt) reward you for this.

maclatunji:

You have time sha.

so you mean with all the epistles you wrote you don't have time?

deols: LagosShia has a point or two though.

I have a very big problem with discriminating against fellow Muslims based on their creed.


Islam disallows injustice to any and everyone, be they Muslims or not.

There should never be compulsion in religion.

No individual or group is perfect. By the way, Lagosshia is a politician. I am sure you know that.

maclatunji:

No individual or group is perfect. By the way, Lagosshia is a politician. I am sure you know that.

exactly.i am a very big politician.

my "political party" is Islam,and my "president" is Allah (swt).in the Holy Quran we read : "verily the party of Allah (swt) are the victorious,and the party of satan the losing ones".

I just can't help it but to see truth in lagoshia's message..saudi arabia from what I understand, don't really represent the muslims all over the world...is there any time saudi openly condemned injustice against other muslims all over the world? Them not allowing christians to practise their religion openly in the country isn't in the holy Qur'an or sunnatun nabiy(SAW) as far as I know...its a political decision and let's not try defending them by associating it with shari'ah....although considering how tricky and deceitful some christians can be, I commend them for those policies but they have nothing to do with islam(my opinion though).@op..have u ever asked yourself that despite these restrictions, why are there so many christians there? As far as I know, every country stil has the right to its own internal policies....picture it as this : this is my house, if you must come in, you must not be so so so and so and you must/nt do this and that.... Why should this be a problem when I set my rules..you asked if islam is tolerant? So op, this is based on politics..if you see a verse in the quran or hadith where you find these restrictions, then come back and ask if this is islamic tolerance. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us our shortcomings..@tunji, roy, lagosshia and others, may Allah reward you all for your JIHAD.(AmEen)

udatso: I just can't help it but to see truth in lagoshia's message..saudi arabia from what I understand, don't really represent the muslims all over the world...is there any time saudi openly condemned injustice against other muslims all over the world? Them not allowing christians to practise their religion openly in the country isn't in the holy Qur'an or sunnatun nabiy(SAW) as far as I know...its a political decision and let's not try defending them by associating it with shari'ah....although considering how tricky and deceitful some christians can be, I commend them for those policies but they have nothing to do with islam(my opinion though).@op..have u ever asked yourself that despite these restrictions, why are there so many christians there? As far as I know, every country stil has the right to its own internal policies....picture it as this : this is my house, if you must come in, you must not be so so so and so and you must/nt do this and that.... Why should this be a problem when I set my rules..you asked if islam is tolerant? So op, this is based on politics..if you see a verse in the quran or hadith where you find these restrictions, then come back and ask if this is islamic tolerance. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us our shortcomings..@tunji, roy, lagosshia and others, may Allah reward you all for your JIHAD.(AmEen)

Very insightful post. What the Saudi authorities have done is to prioritise stability and security over anything else. That the country has been relatively immune from the cataclysm that is rocking the Arab world shows they know what they are doing. To that extent, you have to give them credit.

LagosShia:

exactly.i am a very big politician.

my "political party" is Islam,and my "president" is Allah (swt).in the Holy Quran we read : "verily the party of Allah (swt) are the victorious,and the party of satan the losing ones".

Hahahaha, even a Primary 1 student going through your posts would know your interests are narrow and not very benign. #LOL

maclatunji:

Hahahaha, even a Primary 1 student going through your posts would know your interests are narrow and not very benign. #LOL

oh,sorry your royal highness-the eze 1 of nairaland.com/islam.

so are you a primary 2 student? i'm amazed you know this much about me.

deols: LagosShia has a point or two though.

I have a very big problem with discriminating against fellow Muslims based on their creed.


Islam disallows injustice to any and everyone, be they Muslims or not.

There should never be compulsion in religion.

Yes even Christians, atheists, America, Is-not-real have a point or two about Saudi or Iran, but the problems always lies in hypocrisy, when one closes his eyes to their crimes or even legitimises their own crimes and ignore the salient issues, Sunni in Iran suffer three times as much as Shias in Saudi, in fact Iran prefers Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians to sunnis are allowed to build their place of worship, as Sunnis in whole of Tehran are not allowed to even build their mosques, remember even in the heart land of non Muslims you would find sunnis being allowed to build their own mosques, yet in a supposedly muslims country takes great pains from allowing Sunnis to build their places of worship, so yet the child who licks the boots of men from old persia, has never for once found that wrong, it even gets worse stories of persecution and even depriving them of saying eid fitr prayer in congregation, they arrest, torture and imprison sunni scholars, yet the child who thinks he is an Iranian agent is as silent as ever on this issues, and usual provide justification for such. This underscores the problem why his points should better be ignored because it is based on malice and maliciousness and not aimed at bringing any change but instead invovles the use of propaganda to discredit others, while he actively justifies the evil crimes of his persian masters. Now muslims should notice a change of language, which betathings warned us, first his grouse was with the wahabis, now he equates wahabis = Salafist, now his grouse is with wahabis/salafist - two differing terminology, gradually as we were warned he would soon start referring to us all, the truth of the matter is, anit - Islamic elements like this are always a disappointment on the ummah, if a wahabi or salafist or sunni does some good he would never refer to them as being that, he would conveniently use Muslim, immediately it is a shia, he calls such a person a shia, but if it is a bad story, the label of the individual becomes important, he refers to such a person as salafist or wahabi or sunni, the sort of a behavior invokes the same attitude of the non - muslims but takes an even more twisted logic behind it. The truth remains the ummah faces no bigger headache than the regimes in Saudi and Iran, while Saudi continues to perform it pragmatic twist on issues serving the interest of the royals at the expense of other, the safavid regime in Iran actively engages in deceit, lies, slander and every evil form of propaganda it has to fool people in addition to financing an actively supporting the murder of people from Syria to Lebanon and etc. whether the child who thinks he is an agent of Iran, likes the bitter truth or not remains his problem, I am glad that there are shias who see Iran for what is it https://www.nairaland.com/1335082/shiite-leader-iran-uses-shiites, just as many muslims see Saudi for what it is.

deols:

After showing your hypocrisy here, I see no reason for you to keep talking.

You are obviously bias.

I know know Muslims are passionate about their religion but please refrain from insult were none is due. I pointed out something that occurs around you daily yet you accuse me of bias and hypocrisy.