Basically i gat a chance to do some PHP stuff recently and i am just not impressed. I mean its so difficult to artitect an app very well and i found myself just hacking away writing code that smells. The OOP is just not powerful enough and i can seem to apply some of my lovely design patterns. This experience makes my appreciate Java which is my primary development language more and more.

However i had a look also at Ruby on rails and my God it ROCKS !!.

if u don't know what u are saying just keep quiet. java is an OOP language. Apparently u are still a beginner of web development.

FYI majority of websites you visit daily use PHP in some way or the other. Go back and read

Dude, whats with all the attitude, by the way am not a beginning Web developer . And the fact that PHP is used in majority of websites doesnt make it any better. Its just easy to use for lay men like you, and it sucks in it as well,

There are advantages of both languages. Personally, I'm not happy with the numerous ungrouped functions in PHP. I think it's high time we had namespaces. As for Java, sometimes to do a little thing, you have to write lots and lots of code. I don't use JSP but one of my friends is a pro and that's his opinion.

Everyone is entitled to his choice.

Zahymaka:

There are advantages of both languages. Personally, I'm not happy with the numerous ungrouped functions in PHP. I think it's high time we had namespaces. As for Java, sometimes to do a little thing, you have to write lots and lots of code. I don't use JSP but one of my friends is a pro and that's his opinion.

Everyone is entitled to his choice.

well you are quiet right both, but there are lots of tools in the J2EE space that makes you more productive.

lol we've got anoda one.

Basically i gat a chance to do some PHP stuff recently and i am just not impressed. I mean its so difficult to artitect an app very well and i found myself just hacking away writing code that smells. The OOP is just not powerful enough and i can seem to apply some of my lovely design patterns. This experience makes my appreciate Java which is my primary development language more and more.

Sorry but have to disagree with you. A serious browse of the internet will reveal that there is a php equivilent to any type of web site in existance ( apart from say banking web sites who generally don't use open source technology ). So unless you have got a contract to build an application for online banking i cannot see why you can't use php. btw what type of application are you trying to build? Are there any functions that you are finding difficult to build using php? Please post them.

Yahoo and Friendster are heavily powered by PHP. I rest my case

the original argument is the language architecture not its popularity

PHP can achieve just anything you want to achieve in web development. Though php was developed to enable u develop web ware as fast as possible, that was why the architecture (first release)was not well developed compared to java. But this days we alot of frameworks that have  improved this language. PRADO etc. and d uncoming ZENDFRAMEWORK  am taking a look at this frameworks.

PHP's OOP concept has also being improved,  has u know, most features are from java,  so java is like a brother to PHP,  In the nearer feature i see php be as robust as java.

[size=24pt] Expect MORE from PHP 6.[/size]

c0dec, is yahoo code badly architected?

In naija, most people use pirated tools to do their work- or they work for a big company that can afford expensive tools.

As such, the advantages of open source development platforms is lost on most of us.

Also, we don't get sued by people whose closed-source libraries we illegally distribute with our code, even though we use downloaded, cracked versions, so the advantages of having access to free unencumbered open source libraries is lost on us.

Those abroad know that there is a high price to pay for the easy-peasy GUI-driven IDE's, but here they are as free as anything else.

Therefore, prepare to hear people diss PHP and coldfusion and whatever other open dev platform you choose to advocate just because they can install VS dot net for free and do some click-n-drool 'programming'

in short: do not expect to have an informed debate on the subject of programming languages on a site populated by Nigerians like me. In the company where I work, its VS dotnet or die, despite the fact that some of the programmers from recently acquired smaller banks are using open-source tools (and getting great results)

by and large they are being forced to conform to our dotnet mania because

1) we paid good money for it

and

2) click-click, app is ready. The users are used to lightning fast response- proper dev cycles are alien to them.


Personally I'd love to learn PHP, if only to avoid having to use closed source crap whenever we need a thirdparty library, but the time and inclination is just not there.

skima:

PHP can achieve just anything you want to achieve in web development. Though php was developed to enable u develop web ware as fast as possible, that was why the architecture (first release)was not well developed compared to java. But this days we alot of frameworks that have  improved this language. PRADO etc. and d uncoming ZENDFRAMEWORK  am taking a look at this frameworks.

PHP's OOP concept has also being improved,  has u know, most features are from java,  so java is like a brother to PHP,  In the nearer feature i see php be as robust as java.

Yea i get your point but the fact still remains that PHP is a scripting langugue. It does a very good job for web development but that is just about it. You can not use it for mission critical highly transactional  multitreaded applications. I hate the fact that it is not strongly typed but of course its just a scripting langugue so no surprise.

If you just want to write a quick and dirty webapps then learn and use PHP. that is what it is good at. But if you are working on something a liitle bit more serious PHP is not for you.

dakmanzero:

In naija, most people use pirated tools to do their work- or they work for a big company that can afford expensive tools.

As such, the advantages of open source development platforms is lost on most of us.

Also, we don't get sued by people whose closed-source libraries we illegally distribute with our code, even though we use downloaded, cracked versions, so the advantages of having access to free unencumbered open source libraries is lost on us.

Those abroad know that there is a high price to pay for the easy-peasy GUI-driven IDE's, but here they are as free as anything else.

Therefore, prepare to hear people diss PHP and coldfusion and whatever other open dev platform you choose to advocate just because they can install VS dot net for free and do some click-n-drool 'programming'

in short: do not expect to have an informed debate on the subject of programming languages on a site populated by Nigerians like me. In the company where I work, its VS dotnet or die, despite the fact that some of the programmers from recently acquired smaller banks are using open-source tools (and getting great results)

by and large they are being forced to conform to our dotnet mania because

1) we paid good money for it

and

2) click-click, app is ready. The users are used to lightning fast response- proper dev cycles are alien to them.


Personally I'd love to learn PHP, if only to avoid having to use closed source crap whenever we need a thirdparty library, but the time and inclination is just not there.

Nobody is dissing PHP or coldfusion because they are open source. The argument is that PHP has not proved itself to be a programmers langugue. Its more like a Script Kiddie langugue. While i accept the fact that it does a very good job in developing small - medium web apps. i dont see its relavance in high end web apps. The reason been the fact that there is a need to have a proper architecture and seperation of concerns in larger apps.

But yahoo is a high end webapp now.

And why do you hate that it isn't strongly typed? A non-strongly typed language is a good thing IMHO. Now that we have the processor cycles to support it, why do we have to continuously expose ourselves to buffer overflows and other such evil by trying to control mallocs manually? Its not as if you are writing games or CAD applications. You are designing a website. Among the simplest and most brainless of programming tasks. (note: i did not say *design* tasks ooo! b4 u web gurus tear me apart. website design is challenging and fulfilling and requires an iq of over 200 to do etc etc etc blablabla , )

The whole of yahoo was not written in PHP. The core of Yahoo is CGI.some new services provided by yahoo are written in PHP.
Buffer overflows is a thing of the past. That is so C/C++,  please try .Net or Java to know what am talking about. you don't have to controll memory yourself. the VM does that for you so buffer overflows are dead as meat

Web development is only brainless when you are developing a quick and dirty app . it requires more thought and design if you are not.

There is a lesson to be learned here-

talk not about what you know not.

I humbly retract my statement about the weak typing of PHP being a good thing. having just checked up on this page:

http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/168

I can see that the weak typing of PHP does indeed render it a toy language. The last straw was the ridiculous assertion that floats can never be tested for equality. EH?!!

Now I can only wonder how such a language can be used succesfully in such large and high profile websites as yahoo?   perhaps it is true that web apps really are toy apps afterall.


So, my apologies to clocky.

clocky:

The whole of yahoo was not written in PHP. The core of Yahoo is CGI.some new services provided by yahoo are written in PHP.

And CGI maintains its architechture? Am I missing something here?

For more information on that, you might want to read

[url=http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/one-year-of-php-oscon2003.htm]One Year of php at yahoo.[/url]

and also [url=http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm]Making the case of php at Yahoo[/url]

http://www.cakephp.org/

http://www.symfony-project.org/

Now, look into those two, make a choice, and write well-structured apps with PHP.

@Shockreaction

Thanks for the links

Good topic.

I had always thought most of yahoo was written in python. I have been using PHP for a year now - I really can't see what it can't do for web application. I mean you can't write GUI apps but there are extensions and libraries that will help you do that.

http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks -> Worth browsing through.

Thanks

Hello all

I about to start really building my website and will be using php for the back end stuff, i have all the teach yourself PHP books one can imagine, but i was hoping some nice people would volunteer to be on hand for me to ask stupid questions and point me in the right direct.

thanks