Gombs:

The OP didn't say the above in bold...go and read the post again...He said

"Observe that the new creation is not the redeemed; [size=16pt] he’s the fruit of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross."
[/size]

Where did you see a second transaction in the OP? Even after you saw this?

"The word, "redeemed" is wrongly translated here (Rev 5v9) ; it’s from the Greek, ‘agorazo,’ which means to go to the market and make a purchase; to buy something as a
gift to give to someone. [size=16pt] It’s not a buy-back, as is the case with "lutrōsis," but a fresh purchase. [/size] Christ purchased us with His blood, and gave us as gifts to God. "



I told you you just wanna argue

Gombs:


You obviously wanna argue...if you still don't get it, ask God for the holy spirit to aid you, or you wait when we get to heaven.

nlMediator:

Why do I have to wait till Heaven to get an answer that you and others can provide today? Perhaps, my questions are not clear, so I want to present them this way:

1. Was the christian redeemed or not?

2. If yes, from whom was he redeemed - God or satan?

3. Was the christian purchased or not?

4. If yes, from whom was he purchased - God or satan?

We already know the price (the blood of Jesus). So, some clear answers to the above would be greatly appreciated.

nlMediator: ^^

Thank you very much. Your comments are quite helpful. But they leave some questions unanswered or raise new ones. For instance, you describe the battle described in Colossians and Ephesians as redemption. For there to be redemption, somebody or something has to be redeemed. So, who was redeemed in this battle of redemption, since you state it was not the christian that was [the] redeemed?

Also, you note that Jesus purchased us from God and gave us back to God. Is that a correct understanding of your view?

Taking aside the circuitous nature of this transaction, do you realize that if we're indebted to God and Jesus purchased us from God, that is redemption, a buy-back? Which contradicts the idea of a new purchase. Something is still not adding up.

shdemidemi: Thanks candour for the clarification..I agree we have been bought with a price and I also believe there are two slave masters namely "sin" or rather the very 'root of sin' (the devil) and righteousness (Christ)'.

Romans 6
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

From my understanding, I believe the price was paid to our old master (devil) so he can't lay a claim on us forever for we are now under a new master.

Ubenedictus: this is the problem with explaining redemption in contractal legal terms.

How can God pay the devil by giving him the blood of his son? It doesn't make sense.

Gombs:

The OP didn't say the above in bold...go and read the post again...He said

"Observe that the new creation is not the redeemed; [size=16pt] he’s the fruit of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross."
[/size]

Where did you see a second transaction in the OP? Even after you saw this?

"The word, "redeemed" is wrongly translated here (Rev 5v9) ; it’s from the Greek, ‘agorazo,’ which means to go to the market and make a purchase; to buy something as a
gift to give to someone. [size=16pt] It’s not a buy-back, as is the case with "lutrōsis," but a fresh purchase. [/size] Christ purchased us with His blood, and gave us as gifts to God. "



I told you you just wanna argue

Ubenedictus: if jesus bought us so he can give us to his father, who sold us to Jesus? Who did Jesus purchase us from? Who did he pay the price to in the ''marketplace''?

Ubenedictus: if jesus bought us so he can give us to his father, who sold us to Jesus? Who did Jesus purchase us from? Who did he pay the price to in the ''marketplace''?

Bidam:

A1. Redeem, Redemption [Verb] exagorazo a strengthened form of agorazo, "to buy" (see agorazo under BUY), denotes "to buy out" (ex for ek), especially of purchasing a slave with a view to his freedom. It is used metaphorically
(a) in Gal 3:13; Gal 4:5, of the deliverance by Christ of Christian Jews from the Law and its curse; what is said of lutron lutron under RANSOM) is true of this verb and of agorazo, as to the Death of Christ, that Scripture does not say to whom the price was paid; the various suggestions made are purely speculative;
(b) in the Middle Voice, "to buy up for oneself," Eph 5:16; and Col 4:5, of "buying up the opportunity" (RV marg.; text, "redeeming the time," where "time" is kairos, "a season," a time in which something is seasonable), i.e., making the most of every opportunity, turning each to the best advantage since none can be recalled if missed.
http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=agorazo&dict=vine&lang=greek

Gombs:

Scroll up! I've answered this up thr

okeyxyz: But on a serious note, you guys have been analyzing this in a rather shallow manner, drawing exact matches to literal/legal/secular transactions, thus you lose the spiritual operations therein. So I break it down here;

Looking at a transaction spiritually and faithfully now, what actually happens? It means you give up one object of value; eg: money(In this case: the blood/life) for another object of more useful/needed/greater value(in this case: a new life in christ). The other party with whom you make this exchange/transaction is not an external party(this is why it is spiritual), It is your conscience, the perfect judge who measures your sincerity and faith.

Gombs:

Matthew 27:52-53
"and the graves were opened; and many bodies of
the saints which slept arose, and came out of the
graves after his resurrection, and went into the
holy city, and appeared unto many."

Those righteous folks of old held by the devil...those in Abraham's Bosom ("Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day)....
My Jesus freed them all, he REDEEMED them during/after the battle in Hell. They are the redeemed!




He purchased the debt we owe God, then we became his...now that we are His, He can do whatever He pleases to do with us...He then chose to reconciled us to God. Hallelujah!

" God was in Christ,reconciling the world unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TREASPASSES UNTO THEM,and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation"( 2Cor.5:19).



Jesus purchased the debt! God wasn't selling us na! Buying up a debt is different from buying the debtor.

I hope you get it now...pls do

Ubenedictus: if jesus bought us so he can give us to his father, who sold us to Jesus? Who did Jesus purchase us from? Who did he pay the price to in the ''marketplace''?

Ubenedictus: in economic terms you had to pay to the owner of the slave to buy him, naturally Jesus is suppose to pay the devil so as to purchase man. tHAT IS TOTAL RuBBISH, Jesus didn't exacly purchase man from the devil, no he didn't, he only purchased man for God. The explanation is a bit long so take a little rest, i won't directly be quoting scrippture becos i need to sleep, nevertheless i'm ready to support every sentence scripturally should it be neccesary.

Man became slave to sin and satan by one man i.e adam, he alone actually sined but we all sined in him, that order was reversed in Jesus who did not contact original sin, he lived in complete obedience to his father and thus reversed the disobedience of adam.

Now please note that man became a slave of satan only becos God in accordance with his nature cannot associate with sin, God only left man to his own device becos he couldn't be associated with sin, sin was against the nature of God.

Now down to business, God could accept man again if man was totally sinless.

Jesus while physically bleeding at calvary was spiritually before the throne of God, he entered into that heavenly tabernacle carrying his own blood, he became both priest and victim and offered himself, his own blood to his father,thus fufilling the demands of justice. In Jesus we have a sacrifice that frees us of sin totally so that with Jesus we now have direct access to the father and since the impediment of sin has been done away with and we are now parts of christ, we are now free from the slavery of the devil and slavery to sin.

For all therefore in christ by faith thru baptism, with christ they have been accepted as sons.


I'm sure this has become long and boring, i'm a bit sleepy so let me conclude. To redeem us Jesus broke the laws of economics, he didn't purchase us by paying to the devil instead he went back to the original law. Man is a slave to what he chooses either to sin or to righteousness, by nature in adam we are slaves of sin by grace in christ we are slaves to righteousness. If man became slaves to satan by sin (a delibrate offence against God) then we can come sons by faith in christ Jesus. Christ purchase us for God with his blood becos his blood cleared the impediment against us. By offering blood to the father he cleared in record of sin against and open sonship for us.
The price by which we are made sons is the blood of Christ but that blood wasn't paid to satan it was offered to God to clear the impediment of sin against us so that we can become sons with, in, and through christ.
It seems i'm repeating myself, i'll let the holyspirit do his work.
I do not claim that the above is what pastor chris meant, instead i only presented what i have learnt in God's word.

Bidam:

A1. Redeem, Redemption [Verb] exagorazo a strengthened form of agorazo, "to buy" (see agorazo under BUY), denotes "to buy out" (ex for ek), especially of purchasing a slave with a view to his freedom. It is used metaphorically
(a) in Gal 3:13; Gal 4:5, of the deliverance by Christ of Christian Jews from the Law and its curse; what is said of lutron lutron under RANSOM) is true of this verb and of agorazo, as to the Death of Christ, that Scripture does not say to whom the price was paid; the various suggestions made are purely speculative;
(b) in the Middle Voice, "to buy up for oneself," Eph 5:16; and Col 4:5, of "buying up the opportunity" (RV marg.; text, "redeeming the time," where "time" is kairos, "a season," a time in which something is seasonable), i.e., making the most of every opportunity, turning each to the best advantage since none can be recalled if missed.
http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=agorazo&dict=vine&lang=greek

nlMediator:

OK, so only the old saints are the redeemed, not us? How do you reconcile that with what you wrote yesterday in post # 10 or so: "by his blood he paid the price of redemption of man after man fell to Satan through adaam". Was it only the old saints that fell to satan through Adam?

And how do you reconcile that quote with your statement now that what Jesus purchased was our debt, not us?

Even more, you contradict the original message here which clearly says in quoting Revelations that christians are what was purchased, not debt.

Finally, whether it is debt or the debtor that was purchased, how do you describe that as a new or fresh purchase, as opposed to old-fashioned redemption or buy-back? If I pay a debt you're owing to GTB, can I describe it as a new purchase? Why can't I say I redeemed your debt?

Ubenedictus: what exactly are you saying? That we were redeemed when christ purchased us from our conscience with his blood?
Pls explain.

Joagbaje:
man was redeemed. A christian is not redeemed. He is a new creature ,created anew. He doesn't have a past. He is the fruit of redemption


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5k7WJQFxik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcMSjpR5K0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ag6kNwBDJQ

Gombs:

SMH

nlMediator:

Even if everything you said above is right, you'd still be describing redemption. Only difference is that many christians believe that Jesus redeemed us from satan while you believe He redeemed us from God. But that's different from the Op who says we were not redeemed. Never knew the subject of redemption can be this complicated. I plan to re-study it based on this encounter.

nlMediator:

Thank you for posting the videos. I watched all three. They shed some light, but I'm not sure they answer the questions raised. I'll continue to work on the topic to gain a fuller understanding.

Joagbaje:


Jesus paid the price ,not to God or the devil but to justice .

Observe that the new creation is not the redeemed; he’s the fruit of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross.

vooks:

This is not making sense. What is Justice? Is it not an attribute of God? If Jesus pays Justice He is paying God unless you convince us that Justice exists INDRPENDENT of God