I shall keep things simple, so this isn't the full picture (the actual situation in those story books is much worse actually). It will suffice though.

I create a lion.

I drop it in the jungle.

I tell it it can do as it pleases.

Lion kills a few wildebeest (it's what lions naturally do after all, and I full well know that, of course)

I return and punish the lion grievously and horrendously..... for doing exactly what I told it to do; what it pleases.

Do you see the problems here?

The problem here is that this is a poor and flawed analogy.

^^^^
No

wiegraf: ^^^^
No

Well that is the problem seen here if indeed you're attempting to bring Yahweh in context.

Wiegraff, when will you learn?


Denial and Whargabl are the best form of arguments against common sense!

A good analogy but the christians will come and deny the sense in the analogy then you have "lalala"

Lol, same thing I always say.

Yahweh creates us not to act like robots but will punish us for not acting like robots.

Would you jump on a bike that has Freewill?

aManFromMars: Would you jump on a bike that has Freewill?

Wat kind of question is dat?

lol......

aManFromMars: Would you jump on a bike that has Freewill?

yes! if i have a death wish.

@OP, bad analogy. Not only is it bad analogy but also evidence that you are probably lost in your attempt to figure out the story and morals of adam & eve in the bible. So this weak attempt to re-tell it in a lion story is just your way of dealing with(actually suppressing ) the fact that you are unable to dig deep and present a proper critique that is worthy of serious debate. So this OP is DOA and i'm treating it as a caricature, as that is the only class of writing it qualifies as.

okeyxyz: @OP, bad analogy. Not only is it bad analogy but also evidence that you are probably lost in your attempt to figure out the story and morals of adam & eve in the bible. So this weak attempt to re-tell it in a lion story is just your way of dealing with(actually suppressing ) the fact that you are unable to dig deep and present a proper critique that is worthy of serious debate. So this OP is DOA and i'm treating it as a caricature, as that is the only class of writing it qualifies as.

Wow.....another christian in denial


Did I not tell you, Wiegraff?

[img]http://3.bp..com/-vdbpG8Ti3GI/T1uj_r4z3QI/AAAAAAAABA4/gObdH70euYM/s1600/NVub7.jpg[/img]

wiegraf: I shall keep things simple, so this isn't the full picture (the actual situation in those story books is much worse actually). It will suffice though.

I create a lion.

I drop it in the jungle.

I tell it it can do as it pleases.

Lion kills a few wildebeest (it's what lions naturally do after all, and I full well know that, of course)

I return and punish the lion grievously and horrendously..... for doing exactly what I told it to do; what it pleases.

Do you see the problems here?

your post is quite preposterous and glaringly inaccurate. the bolded, that is

genesis 2 vs 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. <<< that dont sound like 'do as it pleases' smdh

okeyxyz: @OP, bad analogy. Not only is it bad analogy but also evidence that you are probably lost in your attempt to figure out the story and morals of adam & eve in the bible. So this weak attempt to re-tell it in a lion story is just your way of dealing with(actually suppressing ) the fact that you are unable to dig deep and present a proper critique that is worthy of serious debate. So this OP is DOA and i'm treating it as a caricature, as that is the only class of writing it qualifies as.

Okey, from image it's understandable seeing glaring nonsense, but you at least attempt some semblance of a decent response on occasion (seems virtually every programmer does, perhaps it's the training), even if poor.

Now please try again, and start with pointing out why you think it a poor analogy. Thanks

obadiah777: your post is quite preposterous and glaringly inaccurate. the bolded, that is

genesis 2 vs 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. <<< that dont sound like 'do as it pleases' smdh

What is the excuse given for god's lack of involvement with evil?

Also, are you saying Yahweh didn't give us freewill?

aManFromMars: Would you jump on a bike that has Freewill?

When we do build sky net and it goes about sensibly wiping out the cancer that is humanity, I wonder who we'll blame.

Tbf we arent omniscient

I made this post just now on another topic like this.

Op, freewill and Gods omniscience are parallel.
God just knows the future.
And we make our choices.
They are exclusive.
Imagine time travel is possible, and you travel to the
future as an observer. You know how everything will
play out.
That does not stop people from making their choices
in the past, or spoil people's freewill.
So we understand that God does not want people to
go to hell from his very act of dieing for them and
justifying them through Jesus Christ.
God does not want anyone to go to hell. The bible
also says God is our judge. So that means he must
give each person a chance to make the right choice.
The very fact that God is angry when relating with
men show he does not enforce his omniscience
when he relates with us.
I hope you're clear.
God bless.

One more thing, your analogy is preposterous wiegraf.

wiegraf:

What is the excuse given for god's lack of involvement with evil?

Also, are you saying Yahweh didn't give us freewill?

Resumes his gaffs. Do fine-tune your argument. Free-will works with constraints as observed in various national legal codes and their enforcement.

wiegraf:

What is the excuse given for god's lack of involvement with evil?

Also, are you saying Yahweh didn't give us freewill?

lack of involvement with evil ? who said he has lack of involvement with evil ? he is the one directing the evil. just think of him as a quarterback. he uses the evil in people for retribution to other people. he is directly involved in evil.

proverbs 16 vs 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

amos 3 vs 6 shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

isaiah 45 vs 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

and he gave us freewill. which is why you can choose to be good or evil. and if you choose to be evil he has evil people waiting to give you retribution. plane crashes, motor accidents, people getting killed etc etc, who you think doing all that ? thats judgement on people who have done evil. nothing in life is coincidence

The Harbinger ~:
One more thing, your analogy is preposterous wiegraf.

Though you mysteriouslynesses cannot show how.

Now, harbinger of doom, you miss the points. For one, accountability. Why did he place the lion in there in the first, full well knowing (and creating) what lions do?

Why give the lion the lion freewill if he did not want it to use it? Couldn't he have just created robots to do his bidding?

We are ignoring omnixx for the most part, mind you. It worsens the situation. For instance, that is a really poor excuse for his amger. He knows it won't amount to much yet he still gets angry? Or he knows the act will help him get a leg up, spurring some to his (totally subjective) 'good'? So if he knew they were going to be bad eventually, why create them? You would create something you knew you were going to roast forever?? Well....

obadiah777: lack of involvement with evil ? who said he has lack of involvement with evil ? he is the one directing the evil. just think of him as a quarterback. he uses the evil in people for retribution to other people. he is directly involved in evil.

proverbs 16 vs 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

amos 3 vs 6 shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

isaiah 45 vs 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

and he gave us freewill. which is why you can choose to be good or evil. and if you choose to be evil he has evil people waiting to give you retribution. plane crashes, motor accidents, people getting killed etc etc, who you think doing all that ? thats judgement on people who have done evil. nothing in life is coincidence

This is more sensible than standard xtian interpretations. He would still be a dramatic, sadistic douche mind you, bit at least this is more logical.

That said, again, the standard xtian strongly disagrees with you

wiegraf:

Though you mysteriouslynesses cannot show how.

please show me how freewill counters omniscience.

Now, harbinger of doom, you miss the points. For one, accountability. Why did he place the lion in there in the first, full well knowing (and creating) what lions do?

Why give the lion the lion freewill if he did not want it to use it? Couldn't he have just created robots to do his bidding?

first, humans have freewill, they choose what to do. Some choose evil, others choose good.(God)

Why would God find pleasure in using robots and communing with robots who cannot understand anything except fulfilling their programming? God did not just create humans to do his bidding, he created man in his image, to also fellowship with him. Commune I mean.(You won't understand what that entails, since you're an atheist who does not know God or God-communion)

We are ignoring omnixx for the most part, mind you. It worsens the situation. For instance, that is a really poor excuse for his amger. He knows it won't amount to much yet he still gets angry? Or he knows the act will help him get a leg up, spurring some to his (totally subjective) 'good'? So if he knew they were going to be bad eventually, why create them? You would create something you knew you were going to roast forever?? Well....

he created you. That's a totally different account from your actions. He didn't create you to roast forever.

Answer this question: do you want to roast forever?

As I said in that quote, God does create anyone to roast forever, and he certainly does not want anyone to roast forever.(He sent Jesus, so your actions against good would be forgiven and you would escape roasting forever)

You only show you want to roast forever by your actions.

wiegraf:

This is more sensible than standard xtian interpretations. He would still be a dramatic, sadistic douche mind you, bit at least this is more logical.

That said, again, the standard xtian strongly disagrees with you

the reasonable this is more acceptable to you is because you'll obviously be more comfortable with a lie than with the truth of the matter.

Uyi Iredia:

Resumes his gaffs. Do fine-tune your argument. Free-will works with constraints as observed in various national legal codes and their enforcement.

Do look up the meaning of freewill, and for bonus points juxtapose that with omnixx, but let's disregard that.

So you understand freewill comes packed with certain properties, yes? Inescapable, logical truths that god is subject to, yes? Goot. God has to enforce laws is what you're saying, to achieve whatever his subjective goals are.

One of these truths is that so long as there is freewill, there will be 'evil'. God full well knows this before he puts the lion in that jungle. So why does he come back and blames the lion for it? For doing what lions do, what he programmed? Did anyone force him to make the lion?

wiegraf:

Do look up the meaning of freewill, and for bonus points juxtapose that with omnixx, but let's disregard that.

So you understand freewill comes packed with certain properties, yes? Inescapable, logical truths that god is subject to, yes? Foot. God has to enforce laws is what you're saying.

One of these truths is that so long as there is freewill, there will be 'evil'. God full well knows this before he puts the lion in that jungle. So why does he come back and blames the lion for it? For doing what lions do, what he programmed? Did Antone force him to?

freewill and omniwhatever are not juxtaposed(edit: in the way you mean it). Why are you assuming that they are?

The Harbinger ~:
please show me how freewill counters omniscience.

first, humans have freewill, they choose what to do. Some choose evil, others choose good.(God)

Why would God find pleasure in using robots and communing with robots who cannot understand anything except fulfilling their programming? God did not just create humans to do his bidding, he created man in his image, to also fellowship with him. Commune I mean.(You won't understand what that entails, since you're an atheist who does not know God or God-communion)

he created you. That's a totally different account from your actions. He didn't create you to roast forever.

Answer this question: do you want to roast forever?

As I said in that quote, God does create anyone to roast forever, and he certainly does not want anyone to roast forever.(He sent Jesus, so your actions against good would be forgiven and you would escape roasting forever)

You only show you want to roast forever by your actions.

I'm on mobile ATM, a chore to quote. But this is, well, piss poor and you've not added anything new.

For one, when was this about the freewill/omniscience conundrum. I'll get a PC and elaborate, though it's already been said.

Unlike Obadiah you really aren't stating anything new...

The Harbinger ~:
freewill and omniwhatever are not juxtaposed(edit: in the way you mean it). Why are you assuming that they are?

Edit it again, I suggest

The Harbinger ~:
the reasonable this is more acceptable to you is because you'll obviously be more comfortable with a lie than with the truth of the matter.

See, obadiah

wiegraf:

This is more sensible than standard xtian interpretations. He would still be a dramatic, sadistic douche mind you, bit at least this is more logical.

That said, again, the standard xtian strongly disagrees with you

the secrets of the kingdom is for a few. narrow is the road. when too many people agree on one thing with regards to the scripture, head the other way

wiegraf:

I'm on mobile ATM, a chore to quote. But this is, well, piss poor and you've not added anything new.

For one, when was this about the freewill/omniscience conundrum. I'll get a PC and elaborate, though it's already been said.

Unlike Obadiah you really aren't stating anything new...

what do you want me to say? That freewill negates Gods omniscience? That God is evil for doing such?

I know God better than that.

Obadiah is trying to confuse you(or confuse himself?) with misinterpretation of the bible:

Amos 3:6 Does the war trumpet sound in a city without making the people afraid? Does disaster strike a city unless the LORD sends it?
(GNT)

Isaiah 45:7  I create both light and darkness;
I bring both blessing and disaster.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

The KJV was a little shady. Don't let it confuse you.

wiegraf:

Edit it again, I suggest

please why do you assume freewill and omniscience are juxtaposed in the sense you mean it?(I take it you mean they are entwined?)