GeneralShepherd:

But on the other we can't deny the benefits! With the level of illiteracy and poverty in Nigeria atheism will cos panic attacks for a lot of people

I guess the god factor keeps everything in check..

NativeBoy:

And This is where I diverge from you. This is a scary proposition. When man is accountable to no one, what you will find is utter destruction.

You might think religion is evil. I pray you do not see a world where man makes himself a god. What you find is death. One needs to look at the regime of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. And more so than all others, we Africans will pay the deepest price.

You've got to be kidding me. Hitler's principles of Aryan superiority were based on Christianity & the bible. Thus,your argument is invalid. Human conscience is enough restraining factor for any right thinking person. No god needed,no religion needed

cold:
You've got to be kidding me. Hitler's principles of Aryan superiority were based on Christianity & the bible. Thus,your argument is invalid. Human conscience is enough restraining factor for any right thinking person. No god needed,no religion needed

And he was spurred by the writings of German Reformer, Martin Luther.

cold:
You've got to be kidding me. Hitler's principles of Aryan superiority were based on Christianity & the bible. Thus,your argument is invalid. Human conscience is enough restraining factor for any right thinking person. No god needed,no religion needed

"based on the bible " in what way?
Explain.
Tht hitler was a religious christian who found injunctions in the bible to do wat he did knowg it pleased God?
Like you'll find injunctions to pray without ceasing, avoid sexual immorality , bitterness etc.
Please be clear.

plaetton:

HHHmmm.
For a religious apologist you dissappoint me.
You are actually smart. lol

I agree 75% with everything you have said. ( The ubiquity of religion cannot, however, be ignored in the context of our many national ills)
God/evolution has endowed us with a brain and so we have an obligation to use it to build our world.

Therefore, man is the supreme master of his destiny, for good or for bad.

the bolded. God told adam to DOMINATE AND SUBDUE (to b the master). But since you dnt know the intent or plan of God, and you've seen d vagaries of religion (religion outside the bible. Dead routine) . You assume tht wat u see is bible endorsed. Before you begin your tirades understand the subject of your attack.

Emusan:

What a million question....
Atheist have been helping Jesus to separate the tears from the wheat (those who didn't know their stand in Christianity) and helping those who are weak to be strong.

nice answer. Atheists are too inflated to differentiate between hypocrisy and religion.

They have become people who see no good thing in religion, and pray for hypocrisy to happen so their points can be proved.

Speaking like the evilbrain, atheism is mankind's enemy. Has turned its adherents blind and lawless. In the pretence of offering mankind freedom, they have landed us in deeper bondage.

They claim religion is the main problem of this country, but it is a lie. Faulty human nature is, they show they are God-haters by making this obviously incorrect and stupi.d assertion. And when asked to stand for good in this country, even right on this forum, they alluded to the impossibility of their pathetic "freedom" in curing this country of corruption.

Why will man be easily decieved? The solution to our problem is already being administered by the disciples of Jesus this evil vehemently fights against. Jesus people are beginning to stand for good.

To say religion is a problem is foolishness.

Atheists argue because they live for it. Constant and blind arguments on their part might change what is real. I laugh.


The loud mouths can keep shouting. The real deal will keep working, giving people hope in Jesus Christ, changing people, Christ strengthening men and enabling them to stand for good and righteousness.

An atheist finally rationalises tht somethng draws him to christianity. Why? Y not islam?
He tries to rationalise.
Let me help you out.

Somthg draws the muslim to christianity. No matter how much he tries to ignore it. Christianity always pulls at them. In egypt, malaysia,iran etc the reactions ar the same. Somthg makes the muslim want to exterminate christianity. Y not other religions?

Somthg draws atheistc governments to christianity.
And the sight of believers merely singing hymns and prayg hushedly enrages the government.
They drown torture and kill in china,poland,ethiopia etc.

Wen d early church strted somthg drew the jews to attack "ppl of d way"- the attack got so intense ppl lost lives and property for threateng to topple the governmnt?no.
Christians fled to neighbourg nations.

Somethg drew the emperor of rome to christians. To help no?
To exterminate them. Christians were thrown into amphitheatres to battle wild beasts for d amusement of the pagan romans.
Help cud only b found if they renounced jesus? (sounds familiar?This is d boko haram remedy to?)

during the roman catholic era. The masses where forbidden from readg the bible. All enquiry were to b made from the priests. The catholic system became a powerful system for mind and religious control. Even today, catholics are discouraged and dont read the bible. Y? because if they do they'll discover the truth for themselves and be set free from centuries of slavery.
(sounds familiar?- china and many slavic countries in dictatorial grips outlawed d bible)

shortly after som1 discovered the truth,luther, the inquisition began.
Because ppl were realisg theyve lived under a lie for so long and they need to approach God thru a priest or any other man.
A gruesome blood bath began.
By d famed roman catholic church.
The escape route for the victim- renounce Jesus .Accept catholicsm.

Y this injunction to renounce Jesus by anti-christians?
Any rational explanation?

It's interestg to note tht
after the inquisition failed to stamp out protestantism, the dark ages came to an end.

Spiritual enlightenment brought economic and technological advancement!

Y? You may rationalise but if you understand the bible the answer is as clear as day.

Ephesians 6: we battle not against flesh and blood (human beings).
The devil was behind all this, he was behind the crucifixion of christ, the inquisitions,etc
all the opponents ar his pawns and on nl he's got the atheists.
Stop to think?
Y christianity really?
Sombody wants christianity blotted out.
Islamists, corrupt government offcials,dictatorial govnmnts, atheists,satanists,apostate christian sects.
If christianity isnt real. Y the furore and y has no obliteratory programme completely succeeded?

kambo:

"based on the bible " in what way?
Explain.
Tht hitler was a religious christian who found injunctions in the bible to do wat he did knowg it pleased God?
Like you'll find injunctions to pray without ceasing, avoid sexual immorality , bitterness etc.
Please be clear.

There is an overabundance of verses that declare God has a chosen people. Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation....and people whom He hath chosen for His own. John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own....but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Also Psalms 105:43, 106:5, Mark 13:20, Acts 13:17, Deut. 10:15, 14:2. Additionally, the election of God points to divine specifications: I Peter 1:1-2 to the strangers (Israelites) scattered....the elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Romans 9:11 For the children (of Israel) being not yet born, not having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election might stand. If this isn't enough prejudice, God further elevates His Chosen to be above (remember the definition of superior?) other people. Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, ABOVE all people that are upon the face of the earth. Exodus 19:5 ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me, above all people. Also Deut. 7:14, 14:2, 26:19, 28:1,13 , II Samuel 22:48-49, Psalms 45:7, Micah 4:1, Isaiah 2:2.

So what happens to the non-Israelites? Psalms 47:3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. This is beginning to sound like God is a racist!

Nothing has raised man to the peaks of creativity or lowered him to depths of destruction than the dual notion of racial similarity and differences. Both have biological overtones for the individual and groups of individuals. It is the inevitable characteristics of one group that differentiates from another. Whether you like it or not, this is the reality of race in a nutshell. Race goes far beyond the color of skin. The concept of race encompasses so many facts and fictions, love and hate, reason and unreason that is more easily sensed than understood

Yahweh has a Jewish agenda

cold:
You've got to be kidding me. Hitler's principles of Aryan superiority were based on Christianity & the bible. Thus,your argument is invalid. Human conscience is enough restraining factor for any right thinking person. No god needed,no religion needed

Nice try. Hitler was an atheist. Do you aim to deceive by using quotes without knowing the context of the situation? Hitler made those statements in his attempt to manipulate.

Please see the below link:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Look don't waste your time trying to rewrite history. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists and between the three of them, they killed more people in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.

NativeBoy:

Nice try. Hitler was an atheist. Do you aim to deceive by using quotes without knowing the context of the situation? Hitler made those statements in his attempt to manipulate.

Please see the below link:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Look don't waste your time trying to rewrite history. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists and between the three of them, they killed more people in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.

Claiming hitler was an atheist is dubious. Hitler was extremely evil and cunning. You can make a case for him being a christian, you can as well make a case for him being an atheist. You can't beat your chest and claim he was an atheist.

Even if stalin, mao and hitler were atheists as you said, atheism had nothing to do with their genocide.

rationalmind:

Claiming hitler was an atheist is dubious. Hitler was extremely evil and cunning. You can make a case for him being a christian, you can as well make a case for him being an atheist. You can't beat your chest and claim he was an atheist.

Even if stalin, mao and hitler were atheists as you said, atheism had nothing to do with their genocide.

There is nothing dubious about Hitler's religious views. You can read all about it the works on his biographers and historians. Anyone who denies Hitler was an atheist is just in denial.

NativeBoy:

There is nothing dubious about Hitler's religious views. You can read all about it the works on his biographers and historians. Anyone who denies Hitler was an atheist is just in denial.

Ok

NativeBoy:

Nice try. Hitler was an atheist. Do you aim to deceive by using quotes without knowing the context of the situation? Hitler made those statements in his attempt to manipulate.

Please see the below link:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Look don't waste your time trying to rewrite history. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists and between the three of them, they killed more people in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.

You're the one in denial here. Keep deluding yourself. Do you know what these signs meant? For the record..'God with us'. If this doesn't tell you anything then i feel for you. Your level of brainwashing is beyond redemption

NativeBoy:

There is nothing dubious about Hitler's religious views. You can read all about it the works on his biographers and historians. Anyone who denies Hitler was an atheist is just in denial.

As for Stalin & co. Let me help you here since it is obvious as a typical christian,you barely read your bible let alone other research materials..
It is a common talking point amongst Christians to attribute the horrors committed by infamous world leaders to atheism, and many times we are ill-equipped to refute those erroneous claims. In fact, last year, an Anglican Archbishop named Peter Jensen told his Australian congregation that atheism is not the rational philosophy that it claims to be. He stated, "Last century we tried godlessness on a grand scale and the effects were devastating: Nazism, Stalinism, Pol Pot-ery, mass murder, abortion and broken relationships - all promoted by state-imposed atheism…the illusion that we can build a better life without God." He further stated, "It's about our determination as human beings to have our own way, to make our own rules, to live our own lives, unfettered by the rule of God and the right of God to rule over us…What we're really seeing, once more [is] an example of the contest between human beings and God over who rules the world."

Atheist Foundation president David Nicholls says the comments are an act of desperation by the church. Personally, I think "desperation" is an understatement of epic proportions. There are so many things wrong with Jensen's statements that I had to sit here and stare at my screen for quite a while before I even found a starting point. I gave considerable thought to expounding on the sheer arrogance that a god rules the world regardless of whether or not anyone actually believes in one, the utterly ridiculous notion of a struggle between god and man, or their dogma about not being able to achieve peace, happiness and harmony in our society without their god. However, time being at a premium today, I decided to a different route.

First of all, there is no such thing as state-imposed atheism. A state can ban religion, but it cannot ban atheism because it is not a belief, a faith, a set of doctrines or dogmas and cannot be imposed on anybody. Atheism is an absence of belief, and you cannot ban something that does not exist. I have heard the argument so many times from believers who think that atheism is a belief. They compare it to a religion. They say it takes faith. They accuse us of hating god. Believers really need to find another line of fire, as all of these arguments only serve to make them look like complete idiots, which is unnecessary, as many believers are otherwise intelligent individuals. I will not bother to extrapolate the reasons why these are illegitimate arguments, as many of you already know the details. Those of you who don't can look them up yourselves, and perhaps better arm yourselves for the times when you are confronted by theists who offer them up.

Today, though, we are going to examine Jensen's claims about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mass Murder and Broken Relationships. We'll start with the people he mentioned, and, as far as I'm aware, none of them said "I don't believe in god, therefore I will slaughter lots of innocent people". Let's start with Adolf Hitler…

On Adolf Hitler…

Christians have been trying to discredit Hitler's faith for decades, turning their eyes away from history books. From the earliest formation of the Nazi party he expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. He was baptized as Roman Catholic in Austria, attended a monastery school and was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. He was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" and his goal was to become a priest. He was never excommunicated or condemned and the church had stated that he was "Avenging for God" in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Look it up…

Hitler was given veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany and forged a treaty whereas the National Socialist state was officially recognized by the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Nazi party, he wrote "…this treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie."

He allied with Pope Pius in converting German society and made a deal with the church whereas the church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons, and in turn, Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This lead to Hitler enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home.

He was quoted as stating, "The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today…Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church."

In fact, the Holocaust grew out of Hitler's Christian education due mainly to Jews having an inferior status in Christian Austria and Germany. The Christians there blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus and the hatred that Hitler fostered against Jewish people began from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany. It is well known that Martin Luther held a livid hatred for Jews and their religion. Luther wrote a book titled "On the Jews and their Lies" which set the standard for Jewish hatred all the way up to World War 2. Hitler, of course, expressed a great admiration for Luther.

The Nazis began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught. They included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961. Nazi soldiers wore religious symbols and placed religious sayings on military gear. The official army belt buckle read "God With Us". They got sprinkled with holy water and listened to Catholic sermons before going out on maneuvers. The Nazis had a secret service called the "SS Reich" that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens and if anyone was suspected of heresy they would be prosecuted.

Here are a few quotes from Hitler:

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Had enough of Hitler? OK, let's move on to Stalin:

Joseph Stalin was raised to be a Catholic Priest and I remain curious as to why his Christianity is shoved aside in all these arguments. Yes, there is no way to get around the fact that in his early career, Stalin made a vast effort to rid Russia of religion, but that had nothing to do with atheism. It was the only way he knew to seize power of the country.

For generations the entire populace of Russia had been taught that the head of state was supposed to be close to god. At the time in question, the head of the church in Russia was a tyrant. The Russians were already disposed to servility and all Stalin did was exploit these two facts, and place himself in the position of god. Once Stalin was firmly seated in office, he revived the Russian Orthodox Church in order to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. Stalin was part of a council convened to elected a new church Patriarch. Then the Russian theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. Even the Moscow Theological Academy Seminary was re-opened, after being closed since 1918.

So, while Stalin was no peach, he was not exactly what you would call a died-in-the-wool atheist. He was more a secular minded religious opportunist, which is a personal character trait. He did not use atheism to gain control, but religious principles that were modified to fit his own, sick and twisted method of revolution.

What about Pol Pot?

Truly a monster, having killed some twenty-five percent of the entire population of Cambodia. Pol Pot targeted not just different religions, but education, science and medicine in his quest for total domination. Now, let's take a head count of atheists who are against education, science and medicine. Thought so… Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge were composed of Buddhists and Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist. He studied at a Buddhist monastery and then at a Catholic school for 8 years. Cambodia's communism was influenced by Theravada Buddhism.

Prince Norodom Sihanouk said, "Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler."

So, while Pol Pot was definitely not a Christian, he was also definitely not an Atheist.

Let's get on with some Mass Murder, shall we?

Add up the deaths that were attributed to Hitler, Stalin and Pot. Then round up for good measure. You can safely say that the number is staggering. Probably upwards of fifteen million. However, consider the following conflicts where the only differences between the opposing factions were and are religion:

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

If you add up all of the lives that were lost in the name of one religion or another, you come up with a staggering figure that is in excess of eight-hundred-million. That's eight-hundred-million. An eight, followed by eight zeros. So, even if the believers who are uneducated enough to think that Hitler, Stalin and Pot were psychotic mass murderers because they thought these men were atheists, it is horrifically clear that religious murder wins out.

cold:
As for Stalin & co. Let me help you here since it is obvious as a typical christian,you barely read your bible let alone other research materials..
It is a common talking point amongst Christians to attribute the horrors committed by infamous world leaders to atheism, and many times we are ill-equipped to refute those erroneous claims. In fact, last year, an Anglican Archbishop named Peter Jensen told his Australian congregation that atheism is not the rational philosophy that it claims to be. He stated, "Last century we tried godlessness on a grand scale and the effects were devastating: Nazism, Stalinism, Pol Pot-ery, mass murder, abortion and broken relationships - all promoted by state-imposed atheism…the illusion that we can build a better life without God." He further stated, "It's about our determination as human beings to have our own way, to make our own rules, to live our own lives, unfettered by the rule of God and the right of God to rule over us…What we're really seeing, once more [is] an example of the contest between human beings and God over who rules the world."

Atheist Foundation president David Nicholls says the comments are an act of desperation by the church. Personally, I think "desperation" is an understatement of epic proportions. There are so many things wrong with Jensen's statements that I had to sit here and stare at my screen for quite a while before I even found a starting point. I gave considerable thought to expounding on the sheer arrogance that a god rules the world regardless of whether or not anyone actually believes in one, the utterly ridiculous notion of a struggle between god and man, or their dogma about not being able to achieve peace, happiness and harmony in our society without their god. However, time being at a premium today, I decided to a different route.

First of all, there is no such thing as state-imposed atheism. A state can ban religion, but it cannot ban atheism because it is not a belief, a faith, a set of doctrines or dogmas and cannot be imposed on anybody. Atheism is an absence of belief, and you cannot ban something that does not exist. I have heard the argument so many times from believers who think that atheism is a belief. They compare it to a religion. They say it takes faith. They accuse us of hating god. Believers really need to find another line of fire, as all of these arguments only serve to make them look like complete idiots, which is unnecessary, as many believers are otherwise intelligent individuals. I will not bother to extrapolate the reasons why these are illegitimate arguments, as many of you already know the details. Those of you who don't can look them up yourselves, and perhaps better arm yourselves for the times when you are confronted by theists who offer them up.

Today, though, we are going to examine Jensen's claims about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mass Murder and Broken Relationships. We'll start with the people he mentioned, and, as far as I'm aware, none of them said "I don't believe in god, therefore I will slaughter lots of innocent people". Let's start with Adolf Hitler…

On Adolf Hitler…

Christians have been trying to discredit Hitler's faith for decades, turning their eyes away from history books. From the earliest formation of the Nazi party he expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. He was baptized as Roman Catholic in Austria, attended a monastery school and was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. He was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" and his goal was to become a priest. He was never excommunicated or condemned and the church had stated that he was "Avenging for God" in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Look it up…

Hitler was given veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany and forged a treaty whereas the National Socialist state was officially recognized by the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Nazi party, he wrote "…this treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie."

He allied with Pope Pius in converting German society and made a deal with the church whereas the church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons, and in turn, Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This lead to Hitler enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home.

He was quoted as stating, "The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today…Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church."

In fact, the Holocaust grew out of Hitler's Christian education due mainly to Jews having an inferior status in Christian Austria and Germany. The Christians there blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus and the hatred that Hitler fostered against Jewish people began from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany. It is well known that Martin Luther held a livid hatred for Jews and their religion. Luther wrote a book titled "On the Jews and their Lies" which set the standard for Jewish hatred all the way up to World War 2. Hitler, of course, expressed a great admiration for Luther.

The Nazis began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught. They included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961. Nazi soldiers wore religious symbols and placed religious sayings on military gear. The official army belt buckle read "God With Us". They got sprinkled with holy water and listened to Catholic sermons before going out on maneuvers. The Nazis had a secret service called the "SS Reich" that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens and if anyone was suspected of heresy they would be prosecuted.

Here are a few quotes from Hitler:

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Had enough of Hitler? OK, let's move on to Stalin:

Joseph Stalin was raised to be a Catholic Priest and I remain curious as to why his Christianity is shoved aside in all these arguments. Yes, there is no way to get around the fact that in his early career, Stalin made a vast effort to rid Russia of religion, but that had nothing to do with atheism. It was the only way he knew to seize power of the country.

For generations the entire populace of Russia had been taught that the head of state was supposed to be close to god. At the time in question, the head of the church in Russia was a tyrant. The Russians were already disposed to servility and all Stalin did was exploit these two facts, and place himself in the position of god. Once Stalin was firmly seated in office, he revived the Russian Orthodox Church in order to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. Stalin was part of a council convened to elected a new church Patriarch. Then the Russian theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. Even the Moscow Theological Academy Seminary was re-opened, after being closed since 1918.

So, while Stalin was no peach, he was not exactly what you would call a died-in-the-wool atheist. He was more a secular minded religious opportunist, which is a personal character trait. He did not use atheism to gain control, but religious principles that were modified to fit his own, sick and twisted method of revolution.

What about Pol Pot?

Truly a monster, having killed some twenty-five percent of the entire population of Cambodia. Pol Pot targeted not just different religions, but education, science and medicine in his quest for total domination. Now, let's take a head count of atheists who are against education, science and medicine. Thought so… Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge were composed of Buddhists and Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist. He studied at a Buddhist monastery and then at a Catholic school for 8 years. Cambodia's communism was influenced by Theravada Buddhism.

Prince Norodom Sihanouk said, "Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler."

So, while Pol Pot was definitely not a Christian, he was also definitely not an Atheist.

Let's get on with some Mass Murder, shall we?

Add up the deaths that were attributed to Hitler, Stalin and Pot. Then round up for good measure. You can safely say that the number is staggering. Probably upwards of fifteen million. However, consider the following conflicts where the only differences between the opposing factions were and are religion:

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

If you add up all of the lives that were lost in the name of one religion or another, you come up with a staggering figure that is in excess of eight-hundred-million. That's eight-hundred-million. An eight, followed by eight zeros. So, even if the believers who are uneducated enough to think that Hitler, Stalin and Pot were psychotic mass murderers because they thought these men were atheists, it is horrifically clear that religious murder wins out.

Abeg tell them oh.. These religious folks think we atheist are stupid.. We think outside the box.. We read, not just mills and booms or john girshams at al but non-fictions, religious books, (auto)biographies and all... As for Mao.. His brand of communism became a religion for his followers thus giving him a christlike or mohammedan (using christianity and islam as a focal point) aura for them.. If china were to be the major economic/political powerhouse in the nearest future(which is likely judging from their present growth) I bet you in a hundred years or so Mao would replace jesus as the in thing..

cold:
As for Stalin & co. Let me help you here since it is obvious as a typical christian,you barely read your bible let alone other research materials..
It is a common talking point amongst Christians to attribute the horrors committed by infamous world leaders to atheism, and many times we are ill-equipped to refute those erroneous claims. In fact, last year, an Anglican Archbishop named Peter Jensen told his Australian congregation that atheism is not the rational philosophy that it claims to be. He stated, "Last century we tried godlessness on a grand scale and the effects were devastating: Nazism, Stalinism, Pol Pot-ery, mass murder, abortion and broken relationships - all promoted by state-imposed atheism…the illusion that we can build a better life without God." He further stated, "It's about our determination as human beings to have our own way, to make our own rules, to live our own lives, unfettered by the rule of God and the right of God to rule over us…What we're really seeing, once more [is] an example of the contest between human beings and God over who rules the world."

Atheist Foundation president David Nicholls says the comments are an act of desperation by the church. Personally, I think "desperation" is an understatement of epic proportions. There are so many things wrong with Jensen's statements that I had to sit here and stare at my screen for quite a while before I even found a starting point. I gave considerable thought to expounding on the sheer arrogance that a god rules the world regardless of whether or not anyone actually believes in one, the utterly ridiculous notion of a struggle between god and man, or their dogma about not being able to achieve peace, happiness and harmony in our society without their god. However, time being at a premium today, I decided to a different route.

First of all, there is no such thing as state-imposed atheism. A state can ban religion, but it cannot ban atheism because it is not a belief, a faith, a set of doctrines or dogmas and cannot be imposed on anybody. Atheism is an absence of belief, and you cannot ban something that does not exist. I have heard the argument so many times from believers who think that atheism is a belief. They compare it to a religion. They say it takes faith. They accuse us of hating god. Believers really need to find another line of fire, as all of these arguments only serve to make them look like complete idiots, which is unnecessary, as many believers are otherwise intelligent individuals. I will not bother to extrapolate the reasons why these are illegitimate arguments, as many of you already know the details. Those of you who don't can look them up yourselves, and perhaps better arm yourselves for the times when you are confronted by theists who offer them up.

Today, though, we are going to examine Jensen's claims about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mass Murder and Broken Relationships. We'll start with the people he mentioned, and, as far as I'm aware, none of them said "I don't believe in god, therefore I will slaughter lots of innocent people". Let's start with Adolf Hitler…

On Adolf Hitler…

Christians have been trying to discredit Hitler's faith for decades, turning their eyes away from history books. From the earliest formation of the Nazi party he expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. He was baptized as Roman Catholic in Austria, attended a monastery school and was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. He was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" and his goal was to become a priest. He was never excommunicated or condemned and the church had stated that he was "Avenging for God" in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Look it up…

Hitler was given veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany and forged a treaty whereas the National Socialist state was officially recognized by the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Nazi party, he wrote "…this treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie."

He allied with Pope Pius in converting German society and made a deal with the church whereas the church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons, and in turn, Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This lead to Hitler enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home.

He was quoted as stating, "The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today…Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church."

In fact, the Holocaust grew out of Hitler's Christian education due mainly to Jews having an inferior status in Christian Austria and Germany. The Christians there blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus and the hatred that Hitler fostered against Jewish people began from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany. It is well known that Martin Luther held a livid hatred for Jews and their religion. Luther wrote a book titled "On the Jews and their Lies" which set the standard for Jewish hatred all the way up to World War 2. Hitler, of course, expressed a great admiration for Luther.

The Nazis began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught. They included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961. Nazi soldiers wore religious symbols and placed religious sayings on military gear. The official army belt buckle read "God With Us". They got sprinkled with holy water and listened to Catholic sermons before going out on maneuvers. The Nazis had a secret service called the "SS Reich" that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens and if anyone was suspected of heresy they would be prosecuted.

Here are a few quotes from Hitler:

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Had enough of Hitler? OK, let's move on to Stalin:

Joseph Stalin was raised to be a Catholic Priest and I remain curious as to why his Christianity is shoved aside in all these arguments. Yes, there is no way to get around the fact that in his early career, Stalin made a vast effort to rid Russia of religion, but that had nothing to do with atheism. It was the only way he knew to seize power of the country.

For generations the entire populace of Russia had been taught that the head of state was supposed to be close to god. At the time in question, the head of the church in Russia was a tyrant. The Russians were already disposed to servility and all Stalin did was exploit these two facts, and place himself in the position of god. Once Stalin was firmly seated in office, he revived the Russian Orthodox Church in order to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. Stalin was part of a council convened to elected a new church Patriarch. Then the Russian theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. Even the Moscow Theological Academy Seminary was re-opened, after being closed since 1918.

So, while Stalin was no peach, he was not exactly what you would call a died-in-the-wool atheist. He was more a secular minded religious opportunist, which is a personal character trait. He did not use atheism to gain control, but religious principles that were modified to fit his own, sick and twisted method of revolution.

What about Pol Pot?

Truly a monster, having killed some twenty-five percent of the entire population of Cambodia. Pol Pot targeted not just different religions, but education, science and medicine in his quest for total domination. Now, let's take a head count of atheists who are against education, science and medicine. Thought so… Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge were composed of Buddhists and Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist. He studied at a Buddhist monastery and then at a Catholic school for 8 years. Cambodia's communism was influenced by Theravada Buddhism.

Prince Norodom Sihanouk said, "Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler."

So, while Pol Pot was definitely not a Christian, he was also definitely not an Atheist.

Let's get on with some Mass Murder, shall we?

Add up the deaths that were attributed to Hitler, Stalin and Pot. Then round up for good measure. You can safely say that the number is staggering. Probably upwards of fifteen million. However, consider the following conflicts where the only differences between the opposing factions were and are religion:

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

If you add up all of the lives that were lost in the name of one religion or another, you come up with a staggering figure that is in excess of eight-hundred-million. That's eight-hundred-million. An eight, followed by eight zeros. So, even if the believers who are uneducated enough to think that Hitler, Stalin and Pot were psychotic mass murderers because they thought these men were atheists, it is horrifically clear that religious murder wins out.

Comfort yourself in your assumption that you are more read than I am. I'm not in a competition here.

You can bring your stats and I'll bring mine. And with regards to a lot of the conflicts you listed, as with most things in life, there were more than religious motives involved. You conveniently ignore the political, social, and most important, the economic.

Ultimately, either atheism will prevail in Nigeria or it won't. I will do my best to ensure it doesn't. I expect you will work in the opposite direction. Only God knows the future. I tell you plainly, blaming religion is not Africa's problem. White society was very religious when they were still advancing. China was thriving when they were still Buddhist. Why can't the black man succeed whether he is in Africa, Asia, Europe, etc...? That's the question and pointing the finger at religion isn't going to change the picture. It's just another excuse to make.

^^^

Funny how suddenly you have changed your mouth. Is Hitler no longer an atheist? Is atheism no longer responsible for the worst killings in history?

Joker.

NativeBoy:

Nice try. Hitler was an atheist. Do you aim to deceive by using quotes without knowing the context of the situation? Hitler made those statements in his attempt to manipulate.

Please see the below link:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Look don't waste your time trying to rewrite history. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists and between the three of them, they killed more people in the 20th century than in the first 19 centuries combined.

See this person! So your final proof that Hitler was an atheist is a wikipedia article?

You think that's enough to overturn the fact that he called himself a christian, and was raised Catholic from birth? That he signed official treaties with the catholic church and had the Vatican's full support? You think your wikipedia article is more important than the fact that he promoted the indoctrination of German schoolchildren with Christianity and worked to wipe out secular and atheist thought? You think wikipedia is enough to overturn all those speeches he gave quoting the Bible and using it to justify murdering millions of people? All the pictures of Hitler smiling and shaking hands with various church leaders carry less weight than a wiki article written by anonymous writers who may or may not be biased or have no gaddem clue what they are talking about? Or the fact that the German officers and men who actually carried out Hitler's evil plans were virtually all Catholics and Lutherans i.e. Christians.

The only reason the pope has the elevated status of a head of state (and the immunity that goes with it) is because of the dirty deals the Vatican did with the fascists which resulted in Mussolini giving them independence. If not for Hitler and his allies, the “pope emeritus" Benedict XVI would be spending his retirement rotting in prison like he deserves instead of enjoying in a mansion while tens (hundreds?) of thousands of his victims grind their teeth. Hitler and co are the reason catholic priests have a [url=worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/04/20331764-vatican-recalls-dominican-republic-envoy-amid-abuse-claims?lite] safe extradition-free haven to run to whenever one of them gets caught with his john thomas in some small boy's bütthole.[/url]

You seriously want to claim Hitler was an atheist? Get the fück out of here.

I debate because I am alone.
Everyone around me, friends family are religious. There are only about 10% unbelievers in the world.
The religious are running the world and using their faith to make important decision on topics such as homosexuality and educational curriculum which affects my kids. I am happy to convert anyone because I think faith is a delusion based on childhood brainwashing. I was just lucky to break free despite my christian upbringing. De-coverting a theist is like lifting them from the darkness into the light where there is fresh air. Its helping to fight the cause as I believe the world would be a better place without religion.
But most of all I debate because I like to challenge other's views and its fun hobby and a nice distraction. I debate everything, legalization of drugs/prostitution/homosexuality but my favorite topic is my atheism. ie God does not exist and religion is mental slavery.

Mr Troll: ^^^

Funny how suddenly you have changed your mouth. Is Hitler no longer an atheist? Is atheism no longer responsible for the worst killings in history?

Joker.

Didn't change my position. Hitler was an atheist. Not even a point worth debating.

Mr Troll: ^^^

Funny how suddenly you have changed your mouth. Is Hitler no longer an atheist? Is atheism no longer responsible for the worst killings in history?

Joker.

Hehehe, same thing I was about saying.

NativeBoy:

Didn't change my position. Hitler was an atheist. Not even a point worth debating.

Typical christian. When debunked, sing la la la la and repeat the original statement

NativeBoy:

Didn't change my position. Hitler was an atheist. Not even a point worth debating.

lol.

The almighty Nativeboy has said it and it was so!


















You probably think here is your church abi?

Hitler hated the christian God and the 10 commandments. He created a new Jesus that wasn't Jewish and claimed Jewish people were not entirely as "human" as germans. To claim he followed the tenets of the christian religion is blatant lying and bold stupidity.

Hitler was a twisted man who twisted others, an evil man. Simple.

But atheists simply deny the fact that atheism can become extreme, they divorce themselves from all disadvantages that can arise when a twisted man embraces their ways of thinking and claim atheism is a totally good position that cannot be warped by human nature. Nonsense.

Atheism and atheists can be violent, fanatical and filled with mocking hatred just as any other position can because it has and even magnifies its basic problem; humanity; human nature.

Atheism cannot handle human hatred and human imperfections. Christian religion cannot handle it. A devoted relationship with Christ can and will.

Until man is able to change his nature, no amount of reformation or denial of God or scientific finding will help. Until there is a radical change of nature as the bible states, no amount of "good works" will erase our anger and envy and greed and jealousy and lying and stealing. We only decieve ourselves if we think we're okay the way we are.

It's really very disgusting that after everything @cold has said, these christians are still claiming that hitler was an atheist.now that is the real definition of blind faith.

Joshthefirst: Hitler hated the christian God and the 10 commandments. He created a new Jesus that wasn't Jewish and claimed Jewish people were not entirely as "human" as germans. To claim he followed the tenets of the christian religion is blatant lying and bold stupidity.

Hitler was a twisted man who twisted others, an evil man. Simple.

But atheists simply deny the fact that atheism can become extreme, they divorce themselves from all disadvantages that can arise when a twisted man embraces their ways of thinking and claim atheism is a totally good position that cannot be warped by human nature. Nonsense.

Atheism and atheists can be violent, fanatical and filled with mocking hatred just as any other position can because it has and even magnifies its basic problem; humanity; human nature.

Atheism cannot handle human hatred and human imperfections. Christian religion cannot handle it. A devoted relationship with Christ can and will.

Until man is able to change his nature, no amount of reformation or denial of God or scientific finding will help. Until there is a radical change of nature as the bible states, no amount of "good works" will erase our anger and envy and greed and jealousy and lying and stealing. We only decieve ourselves if we think we're okay the way we are.

the same way muslims claim that the activities of al-qaeda and boko haram are unislamic.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Case closed... Hitler was a Christian, would be using this piece in case of a future argument.

Nice job getting that mini-article @cold, it's so cool

if not for Nairaland maybe I'd still be very gullible

Ranchhoddas: It's really very disgusting that after everything @cold has said, these christians are still claiming that hitler was an atheist.now that is the real definition of blind faith.

wats or belief?

SIR ANDREWS: if not for Nairaland maybe I'd still be very gullible

Lol. Which section, bro?

Afrobasic:

Case closed... Hitler was a Christian, would be using this piece in case of a future argument.

Nice job getting that mini-article @cold, it's so cool

Of course, Hitler was a Christian. Whether he was following Christian tenets is another matter.


A monkey remains a monkey, doesn't matter if he learns to use a keyboard or hates bananas.

Not surprising. Christians are adviced to fit facts into whatever meaning they derive from their books (read jtf's sig). If these facts contradict the Holy Scriptures, they are of the devil and all 'man made' wisdom. Lol.