My thinking about this world has led me to believe that the Tribulation is already here.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

All the continents and nations of the world have been conquered.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

2 World wars in the 20th century.
Communist wars killed even more 20th century.
Wars of liberation in 20th century.

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

33,000 people die per day of starvation
Rich countries parasitic towards poor countries
Rich getting richer, poor getting poorer

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This is like a cumulation scripture showing all of that before and more that is happening today.

We should add about the 'beasts' of the earth

Mad cow disease
Mad deer disease
Mad wolf disease
West Nile


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Christians being killed for thier beliefs in God. China, Korea, Sudan, Nigeria, Morroco, others.
Just had on news 3 christian churches bombed in Iraq.
Also in Gaza/westbank it used to be a lot christian but because of persecution, christians are now very small minority,etc

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is about where we stand and this is going to come soon true, America has lots of christians gearing up to kill other christians who do not believe like them:

Apostles and Prophets movement has said if you do not accept thier leadership, then you are follower of witchcraft.

Christians from Rushdooney world (who is a darling of republican party) who believes that the sword and the pen work hand in hand.

Dominionist--who believe that Christians have to take back the world for Christ before christ can come back.

Christians who now believe that voting against the republican party is voting for devil.

This is about where the world stands now in the Tribulation .

Let me add these also:

Rev. 17

The alliance between the 'LovePeddler' (false church) and the 'beast' is already here. America being the beast and the Christian churches supporting the governments every killing around the world being the 'LovePeddler'.

Rev. 18

The horrible economic system is already here. Whether Capitalism or Socialism or Islamic, all economic systems have thier God and all Kill in the name of making money.

The Tribulation is already here. And either you have been "Left Behind" or the rapture is further out.

I have sometimes called this period: "The beginning of sorrows", But it is described in Chapter 6 of revelations, which means it is past chapter 4 of revelation, where the pre-trbi rapture is supposed to have happenned already.

To add:

The church on the right:

God of mammon: prosperity gospel

The church on the left:

God is a man: psychology gospel

The Falling away has happenned.


*******************


2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I believe this has already happenned, the one who withholdeth has been taken out of way.

Tsunami, Earthquake in pakistan, Katrina revealing who America really is in charecter towards the poor.

The piggish gorging of rich men, in tax cuts, in kickbacks through environmental bills, medicaid programs, bankruptcy bills, etc. Cutting help to the poor, laborers, while promising rich people bigger gains.


Not many people realize that treatment of the poor is tied to the end times:

Pro 30:14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Not many people notice that nation's were ended in the Old Testament and treatment of the poor is sited as a reason.

Israel:

Amo 2:6 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Sodom & Gommorha:

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

I believe this is why we see no restraint in the harm to the poor of the earth at this time.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

God is allowing our own heart to be revealed to us in this time. He is letting us get naked and reveal that we are no more than beasts, who do not help thier weak but most often tear them apart.

The Tribulation:

The beginning of sorrows
The abomination of desolation
The Great Tribulation

The Israelite history:

Slavery in Egypt
Captivity in Babylon
Only a remnant left

The Church History:

Early persecution
Holy Roman Empire
The Falling Away

i wouldn't say the tribulation is here but i could say the last days are here which would usher in the tribulation. i couldn't read all of your post 'cos it was pretty long. but i'm sure you must have made sensible statements.

daily things would go really bad around here (earth) so i think it's high time we hold on to what we really believe and not compromise our standards with the world.

excuse me, but doesnt the bible say the tribulations would occur after the rapture?

if so, aaarrrgggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have been left behind.

The bible doesn't say the tribulation will occur after the rapture.

Believe it or not. The rapture of the saints is ongoing in real time. It would soon be ova. Most of us will be left behind but there is hope at least thru the Matyrs Route. .

Its a hard fact but can u change it?

Seun, what bible?
The rapture preceeds the tribulation.

Quote that bible let us see. The case for rapture before tribulation is very brittle.

The tribulation takes place for 7 yrs. If you read the bible it talks of a time and times and half a time (symblism for 3.5yrs) when the beast (devil) in form of a man sets up his one world govt. Actually the world is even better off than now during that period. In the midst of the tribulation, the "elect" of God are caught up to meet Him in the air. The remaining 3.5 yrs out of the total 7 is when the real great tribulation starts and you can neither buy nor sell during that period unless you have the mark (666) of the beast (Rev 13). At the end of the 7 yrs is armageddon.

The tribulation has not yet begone but the signs are stirring, the EU is expanding, the EU is the 10 kings/ten horns in Rev 17 who give their power to the beast for one hr (7 yrs) of the tribulation. This symbolises the 10 kings of the revived Roman Empire (the 10 most powerful EU nations; England, Germany, Italy, France, ).
The temple in Jerusalem is where the Anti-christ will seat and rail against God (Rev 13). Note power is given to the beast 42 months - 3.5 yrs!!! This are the last 3.5 yrs of the tribulation. Also see Rev 11:2

Each generation believes itself to be the last generation. We can be at this for another 10,000 years!!

Drusilla, I like your zeal, but your knowledge is so inaccurate. I don't even know where to start from, but you really need to get your theology in order.

Good post Davidylan, you are spot on in your summary.

Seun, the last days actually began as soon as Jesus ascended, so technically, every generation is right to think that they are in the last days. However, our generation is at the latter days of the last days, and I am certain this is the generation that will witness the Rapture. The Bible is very clear that the generation that will see Isreal coming back together as a nation (as we see in 1948), is the generation that will esperience all these events.

Talking about the rapture, Drusilla, the one the Bible mentions "who now letteth" is the church, and until the church is taken out of the way, the man of sin can not be fully revealed. The reasons for this is something quite simple, and I can tell you if you desire to know.

Cheers.

As posted by TayoD

, Talking about the rapture, Drusilla, the one the Bible mentions "who now letteth" is the church, and until the church is taken out of the way, the man of sin can not be fully revealed.

I am sorry to disappoint you TayoD, the church must pass through the tribulation, but Jesus promises that it will prevail. Listen to what He said before He ascended to His Father:

Matthew 24:
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

This tribulation that Jesus refers to here, will be the very last and worst, just before He comes to redeem His church. Because the tribulation would have been so severe, God is prepared to step in to prevent a total anhilation of His people.

There has never been a time in history where God's people never went through a persecution of sorts, but one thing I am certain of, is that, He has always been there for His people as promised. He's been there through the fire, and the deep waters.

Listen to what the book of revelation says about those who are in heaven:

Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Now listen to this question:

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If you notice it implies that all who were in heaven seemed to have been through this great tribulation without exception.

Listen to Paul as he describes the state of affairs just before Jesus returns to rescue His redeemed:

2 Thes. 1:6-8
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

This scripture strongly implies that God's people would be persecuted right up to the second coming of Jesus Christ, whose physical and literal appearing would put an end to the trouble itself.

At no time do any of these passages come close to suggesting that God's church must be put aside, or escape the tribulation.

Just a thought.

Zionchic,

Notice this at the end of my long post:

The Tribulation:

The beginning of sorrows
The abomination of desolation
The Great Tribulation

The Israelite history:

Slavery in Egypt
Captivity in Babylon
Only a remnant left

The Church History:

Early persecution
Holy Roman Empire
The Falling Away

It is meant to convey the idea of time periods of these things. Some might argue that we are in the beginning of sorrows part of the tribulation but that still means we are in the tribulation.

TayoD,

Any discussion that attempts to open up my understanding of what the bible says, has to be based on the bible for me.

I'm a stickler about that, sorry.

Drusilla,

I am a stickler to the Bible to my very core, and I will be most glad to share the biblical verses on that which we are discussing. But I have one question for you before we go on, who is the one the bible says "now letteth" who has now been taken out of the way according to your conclusion? I will be glad to know your views so I know where to start.

Bobbyaf,

Let me start by letting you understand that there are three groups of people on the earth today as recognised by the Bible. These are the Jews, the nations (or gentiles) and the church. You have to understand that not all scriptures you read relate only to the church. Some are refering to the nations or the Jews and when you apply the scripture that relates to the jews to the Church, you will be messing things up.

The scripture about God's elect that you are talking about actually relates more to the Jews right there. The jews are going to be God's people and His representative once the Church is in heaven. Why do you think the Bible says that temple sacrifices will resume at the tribulation period? And why will the Bible say that the man of sin will ascend into God's temple and call himself God? This is because it is a new age in which God's temple will now be the one built up in Jeruslaem (remember that in this dispensation, christians are God's temple). And why would there be other blood sacrifices when it is the blood of Jesus that avails in this dispensation? Think on these things, and I'll begin to give you scriptures and talk to you more about dispensations within the Bible.

@ bobbyaf

Read Rev 12.

The man child here refers to the "elect" of God, the small remnant that would be caught up with God and to His throne just before the great tribulation. The woman in travail here is the church (the entire body of christians), the lukewarm churches caught up more with prosperity than salvation. The man child (called out ones) is a special group of people who will come out of the same church.

It is the lukewarm churches that will go through the great tribulation, they are the ones who seal their testimony with their blood.

TayoD,

Traditionally, the answer to who is he "who letteth" has always been: The Holy Spirit.

I've heard the newest interpretation from the rapture folks about this being the church also. Although,I am short on details of how they came to this conclusion. Maybe you could show me the scriptures that support that idea.

I was thinking yesterday about this when I first read your post. What immeadiately struck me was the fact that Paul mentions the falling away or apostacy of the church only 4 verses earlier.

Is Paul referring to the church falling away finally and the anti-Christ coming forth because most christians have been taken out of the way (i.e. Christians are with the anti-christ)?

TayoD,
Traditionally, the answer to who is he "who letteth" has always been: The Holy Spirit.
I've heard the newest interpretation from the rapture folks about this being the church also. Although,I am short on details of how they came to this conclusion. Maybe you could show me the scriptures that support that idea.
I was thinking yesterday about this when I first read your post. What immeadiately struck me was the fact that Paul mentions the falling away or apostacy of the church only 4 verses earlier.
Is Paul referring to the church falling away finally and the anti-Christ coming forth because most christians have been taken out of the way (i.e. Christians are with the anti-christ)?

@Drusilla,
Paul's mention of the falling away and the revelation of that man of sin was in clarifying the events that are to take place before the Great Day of the Lord.  The falling away is not directly linked to the revelation of the man of sin, though it is bound to take place before that event.  Go back and read 2 Thessalonnians 2 from the very first verse and you will see exactly what I mean.

With regards to He who now letteth, I personally believe it is the Church, though saying it is the Holy Spirit will still lead you to the same conclusion.  The Holy Spirit is present on the earth today only in the body of the believers.  If the Holy Spirit is taken away, will He now leave us when Jesus said He will be with us forever?  If indeed the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, then the Believers are sure to go with Him, because the Bible says He is the earnest of the deposit until the redemption of our whole bodies (see Ephesians 1:13 & 14).  How can God take the deposit away when He actually promised fullness afterward!!!

There are at least two major reasons why the rapture has to occur just before the appearing of the man of sin, and this I will treat in my subsequent posts.  It's going to involve a lot of references and I am wary of it being too long.  I wouldn't want to lose my point while driving at it.  Anyway, it is basically a dispensation thing, and Prophet Daniel had a lot to say about it.

I hope I've said enough to keep you thirsty for more.

Drusilla:

TayoD,

Traditionally, the answer to who is he "who letteth" has always been: The Holy Spirit.

I've heard the newest interpretation from the rapture folks about this being the church also. Although,I am short on details of how they came to this conclusion. Maybe you could show me the scriptures that support that idea.

I was thinking yesterday about this when I first read your post. What immeadiately struck me was the fact that Paul mentions the falling away or apostacy of the church only 4 verses earlier.

Is Paul referring to the church falling away finally and the anti-Christ coming forth because most christians have been taken out of the way (i.e. Christians are with the anti-christ)?

Like TayoD said, He who now letteth here refers to the "elect" of God, or if you would, the man child born of the woman in travail in Revelations. (i'm too lazy to go searching for the references now ).

But the falling away refers to the church and IT IS HAPPENING NOW. The contradiction is that more people are joining the church today but in reality much more are departing from the TRUE FAITH. That there are more people in the church does not mean all of them are indeed saved!

indeed, the man of sin is not revealed until the "elect" is taken out of the way, the lukewarm church will be the one to face the great tribulation and seal their testimony with their blood.

@ TayoD

Bobbyaf,

Let me start by letting you understand that there are three groups of people on the earth today as recognised by the Bible. These are the Jews, the nations (or gentiles) and the church. You have to understand that not all scriptures you read relate only to the church. Some are refering to the nations or the Jews and when you apply the scripture that relates to the jews to the Church, you will be messing things up.

It doesn't matter that they are three different groups of people who exist on planet earth today, since the bottom line situation relates to the church. It won't be the nations that will be experiencing the tribulation. Its the church! As to how one sees the church is another matter, but if we are looking carefully at the bible's definition, then we cannot go wrong. Listen to how the apostle Peter defines the meaning of the church.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

In every dispensation there are only two sets of people as far as God is concerned. Those who hear the salvation message and respond to it, and those who don't. God doesn't care about who is who in the plan of salvation. Listen to what Jesus said about the gospel and who it is intended to reach.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The point is that everyone from different nations will be faced with the ultimate choice of accepting the plan of salvation, be they jews, gentiles, etc; since ultimately, these same people will form the church.

The scripture about God's elect that you are talking about actually relates more to the Jews right there.

The apostle Paul saw it differently. He saw the jews and gentiles making up the elect. See Romans 10 and 11 You cannot have two types of people being called the elect. When Jesus spoke those words in Matthew 24, He was not referring to the literal jews so much, but the spiritual Israelites, that would have comprised both sets of people being the Jews and gentiles who would have come to accept Him as Lord. Bear in mind that Paul was elected to preach the gospel to the gentiles, being a jew. Hence the church that Jesus comes for will comprise all races of people.

The jews are going to be God's people and His representative once the Church is in heaven. Why do you think the Bible says that temple sacrifices will resume at the tribulation period?

This doesn't make sense at all. This is purposeless! What would be the point for the Jews to resume sacrificial services as a measn of qualifying their purpose as God's people, when all those services once pointed to the supreme sacrifice of Jesus. Look how senseless the whoe thing looks. The church is in heaven, while the jews are down here making sacrifices. , what kind of God are you portraying?

And why will the Bible say that the man of sin will ascend into God's temple and call himself God?

Its one thing for the bible to say that, but its quite another matter to understand in context what the bible means. This passage must be seen in the context of what other scriptures have to say about the same matter. Revelation 13, and Daniel 7, all speak about the same matter from a prophetic view point. This subject matter requires deep contemplation and study, and should not be isolated with the use of one text.

This is because it is a new age in which God's temple will now be the one built up in Jeruslaem (remember that in this dispensation, christians are God's temple). And why would there be other blood sacrifices when it is the blood of Jesus that avails in this dispensation? Think on these things, and I'll begin to give you scriptures and talk to you more about dispensations within the Bible.

The only temple/Jerusalem that John sees coming is the one from heaven as mentioned in:
Revelation 21:1-2
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2vI saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The temple that was destroyed in AD70 will never be rebuilt, if that is what people are waiting for.

@ davidylan

@ bobbyaf

Read Rev 12.

The man child here refers to the "elect" of God,

This doesn't make sense at all. Lets put things in context with a few questions.

1. What does the word "woman" in Genesis 3:15 mean?

2. What does the seed(off spring) of the woman in Genesis 3:15 mean?

If you can asnwer those two questions then you'd begin to understand who is the "man child" and its relation to the woman in Revelation 12.

I believe you know about the Genesis 3:15 prophecy of the coming Messiah, so I won't deliberate too much on that. The woman no doubt represented both the literal Eve as well as the church, the latter through which that blessed seed was to come. So both literally, and prophetically, Christ or the Messiah would come through a woman, and through the figurative woman the church. The bible is replete with expressions depicting the church as a bride, or daughter of zion, etc.

It becomes quite obvious, that if Jesus is the seed that Genesis referred to prophetically, then the "man child" mentioned in Revelation 12, no doubt has to be Jesus who was born through the church(woman). If you examine carefully how John describes the events in that chapter, you'd be forced to conclude, that the symbolism behind the events were actually literal experiences that were fulfilled in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. Besides, if we are going to accept that the Dragon in the same chapter symbolises Satan, then we'd have to view the context of the man child in a whole different context. On whose life did satan make an attempt? Wasn't it Christ? Didn't the Genesis prophecy tell us that the seed(followers) of Satan would bruise the heel of the seed(Jesus) of the woman, and that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head?

Revelation is simply saying that Jesus although He was crucified, circumvented Satan who thought that he had Jesus where he wanted him. Instead Jesus after the crucifixion is now in the presence of His Father sitting at His right hand. As a result Satan targeted the woman(church) during the dark ages for 1260 literal years based on the prophecy in that chapter, while leaving the remnant(last phase of the church) for the last days before Jesus returns.

the small remnant that would be caught up with God and to His throne just before the great tribulation.

There is no scripture that supports this belief. NONE!

Show me a scripture within context and I will concede!

@ bobbyaf,

Reading your post made me laugh so hard i had no idea whether to respond or not. Ok let us take things slowly, you raise so many things its hard to know where to start from.

In every dispensation there are only two sets of people as far as God is concerned. Those who hear the salvation message and respond to it, and those who don't. God doesn't care about who is who in the plan of salvation. Listen to what Jesus said about the gospel and who it is intended to reach.

Obviously you still need to restudy the word again. Read Rev 3: 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Reading from verse 1 of this chapter you will realise that Christ was speaking to the Laodecian church age (the church of the end time, our age) - Three distinct sets of people are talked about here: the cold, the hot and the lukewarm. The cold are those who are outside of God's plan, the hot are those who are steadfast with Him and the lukewarm, neither here nor there!

As regarding the Jews, may i just state a few things that will happen in the end time:
1. The temple in jerusalem WILL be rebuilt
2. The time of the gentiles has been fulfilled Luke 21: 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Verse 24 was fulfilled in 1948 when the Jews finally resettled in Isreal. The time of the gentiles has been fulfilled and by the Lord's mercy we are living on borrowed time. The Lord is set to return to His people the Jews.
Look at verse 27-28, it clearly reveals that this things will happen at the end of the age, OUR AGE!
3. The man of sin WILL indeed sit in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God during the last 3.5yrs of the tribulation. Read Rev 13
4. The woman and manchild in rev 12 has absolutely nothing to do with Eve and Jesus, Christ could not have been showing John a revelation of something that had already happened of which John himself was an eyewitness.
Please re-read Rev 12 again! The duration for which the serpent persecutes the woman and the remnant of her seed is repeated not once but TWICE! Verse 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Verse 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

a time -1 yr
times - 2yrs
half a time- .5 yrs
Total - 3.5yrs - the last half of the 7 last seven yrs. These are the yrs of the great tribulation. Remember the "manchild" is cut up before the start of these yrs.

1260 days - Exactly 42 months (if we assume a month = 30 days). - 3.5 yrs

The bible does not make mistakes. There must be a great significance for the bible to mention that exact period TWICE within 8 verses.

As for when the "elect" is caught up to Christ, the bible clearly records that Christ will appear twice. Once as a thief in the night to gather his saints to meet Him in the air (rapture) and the second time with 10000s of His saints to judge the earth. The second appearing is obviously the great day of the Lord, the first appearing (rapture) takes place before the tribulation. The christians who go through the tribulation are the ones recorded in Revelation as those who seal their testimony with their blood.

Bobby,

You've made some good points. I'd like to ask about this one.

The only temple/Jerusalem that John sees coming is the one from heaven as mentioned in:
Revelation 21:1-2
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2vI saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

The temple that was destroyed in AD70 will never be rebuilt, if that is what people are waiting for.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

These scriptures indicate that a temple of God will be somewhere? What do you understand about this temple?

The Holy Spirit is present on the earth today only in the body of the believers.

Could you show scriptures for this belief, in particular, the only in part?

I've never thought of the Holy Spirit, who is God, as being restricted to being only in believers/people.

Since the first or second verse of the bible shows that the Holy Spirit was hovering over the face of the deep before people got here.

Al Qur'an says this world is a jail for believers and a paradise of the unbelievers. In this verse, a poor Jewish woman in Egypt some times in the past centuryapproached a Muslim scholar on the street . This muslim scholar was regally dressed, on a horse and in the company of his students. At this occassion the Jewish woman ask the Muslim scholar to tell her how is it possible according to Qur'an that he the scholar is in jail in the opulent lifestyle that he enjoys and she in paradise knowing fully well that she is suffering, no money and hard to live a normal life, experiencing lack of enough food most of the time and no good and decent adequate clothing. In short she was having a bad life. The Muslim scholar having wisdom from God, the Almighty Allah responded that in the day of Judgement, God willing from His mercy when he is rewarded to dwell in Paradise, he will live in felicity so much that regardless of any good life he had lived on the earth, it would be as if he was in Jail. On the otherhand, a person who disbelieved in the signs of the Most Beneficient, Allah the Almighty, when that person is herded to Hellfire, the punishment and the consistent unbearable of hell, if he or she were to reflect back to the life that was led on earth, regardless of how bad it was, comparing to the punishment of hell, one will wish to go back because it was paradise, the life of this world.
My people, oh mankind, remember your Cherished Lord the Almighty and give Him His right. Seek the right course to worship Him. Obey His commandment. You can not worship Him the way you like, especially when it is different from the true way to worship Him as per His instruction.Your job is to seek His guidiance and from His mercy, He will guide you to the right path if you are sincere.
If you think tribulation is here, now, consider when death approached and the soul is going to be torn from the body willingly or unwillingly. there will not be a moment longer than what the Lord of the Worlds had given. No more sustenance. If you live long that the Anti-christ was to come in your time, for me I pray against the Difficulties of that time, then he the acursed Antichrist makes what is evil seemingly beautiful to you and what is good seemingly evil to you. He will give you hellfire and you will think it is paradise, now that is tribulation. You safe yourself by seeking God mercies and forgiveness right now and live a path that is straight and not crooked. Allah the Almighty said that Oh you who believe safe yourself and your family from hell whose fuel are mankind and stone. I pray that whoever is on the right path rigt now will continue to be guided on it and those who are astray, will receive guidiance to the right path. However some people are destined for fire of hell. Do you want to be one of the condemned and can you wish it for yourself if you know the hardship in it.

Drusilla, Bobbyaf, Davidylan, TayoD,

Hi all and good work. I just revisited this, as at the first it did'nt seem like it was picking up speed. I appreciate all (although I can't say I agree with all) your contributions. Very interesting reading.

In this as in a lot of threads, people tend to fall (give or take a little) into certain schools of thought.

I would entreat us all to subject our positions to God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Let's be careful not to make idols of our doctrine or be puffed up with knowledge.

I trust that if we engage in this with the desire to truly Know Him and His will, He will certainly open our eyes.

God bless you all.

How does a Human being ignore the prophet of God (AS) of his/her time and follow a prophet of the time gone by and a holy spirit. That person would have not followed the prophet in truth the prophet it claimed to have followed. For example, if the children of Israel had remained to follow any of the past prophets , eg. Noah, Ibrahiim, Isiaqa, Yaquub,etc, even though the holy spirit was always in existence before the creation of Adam and his wife (AS), and human being have experienced Holy spirit on this earth, and refused to follow Musa (AS), especially when at the crossing of the Red sea. The Children of Israel would have been overran by Pharaoh and his army (La natullahi alleyhi)>They would not have been able to cross the sea, successfully as they did. They had to follow Musa who was a human being, same as they are. Holy spirit belongs to the realm of angels, because the Angel Jibril is known as that, (Ruuhu-Qudus)> God Almighty never had sent angels as His messenger to mankind at any time, but He sent angel(s) to deliver revelations and other functions, eg means of Supports to His Human messengers who leads mankind in his time. If anyone generation would have ignore the prophet of its time and remain with the prophet of the past generation, that individual(S) in that generation would have been astray. So when Jesus son of mary (ISA ibn Mariam), (AS), came on the scene delivering the messages and commandments of his Lord, Allah the Almighty, who ever chose to igmore that prophethood which the children of Israel did, wholesale, were in manifest error.So is in the same breath, when the All knowing raised the last link in the chain of messengers to mankind, in the persona of that noble messenger of Allah, Muhammad ibn Abdallah (AS),who ever heard of him, the source of his messengership, the religion that he brought and oh, his praising of his Lord, that person must not remain with the prophet s of old. Yes, you must take the last link and refusing it will amount to rejecting the link that you latch on to. The message of each prophet (AS) is in it core, the same. They all proclaimed one Lordship. There is no division between them because they came to proclaim the same message. It is we, human beings who have circumvented and corrupted the essence of each prophethood (AS). In some quarters, we ignore or diminish the position or existence of one or other prophet(s) as if it is our rule that matters , in essence disregarding the commandments of the Almighty. In some cases, we give more position and quality to another of the messenger(s) of God usurping the Mighy of Our Creator for that Prophet(s) because of our love that prop[het(s). We must not forget that in either case we have strayed far from the truth. Allah the Almighty is the One to be worshipped and we must not associate any thing, Angels, Prophets, Jinns or others with Him.

@ Drusilla

Bobby,

You've made some good points. I'd like to ask about this one.

OK

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

There are some things you need to understand about the book of Revelation. Some of its contents are symbolic, and some are literal. In the case of the above two verses, there are indications within the verses that would suggest some form of symbolism or code that needs decoding. Before we continue you need to see that this 11th chapter is really a continuation of the 10th, as far as instructions are concerned that were given to the angel.

Bear in mind that the people who put the bible together sometimes separated verses into chapters and made it look like a brand new thought. So one has to read preceding verses to pick up on the context of what was being said before. Such is the case with chapter 10 and 11.

The question is who was it that got the measuring rod? It would have to be John (the church's representative) in this case, right? The objective pronoun me indicates that. The measuring mechanism is simply saying that God's church, the temple of God was in the process of being measured by a standard. This standard should be held by all of God's earthly representatives as far as guiding God's church on earth is concerned. The standards are the bible or word of God and His eternal law(10 commandments).

Verse 2 of the 11th chapter takes us to a very important piece of bible prophecy that will take some time to go into, but once again there are expressions used to indicate some degree of symbolism, that I need to point out to you. For example:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:" This expression now brings us to a very important truth about the purpose of the temple in heaven in which God dwells. The part about the outer court not being measured had to do with what was accomplished by Jesus when His blood was shed outside the temple walls when He died, hence the emphasis was now being placed on the work that He as our High priest was now doing in the heavenly temple or sanctuary.

"holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" This expression indicates what other sections spoke about concerning the persecution of God's church during the dark ages for a literal period of 1260 years. This took place between AD538 to AD1798. (42 months in bible prophecy = 1260 days = 1260 literal years)

Trust me its very complicated stuff trying to analyze the book of Revelation, and I will not be able to explain everythingl in this section for reasons of brevity.

These scriptures indicate that a temple of God will be somewhere? What do you understand about this temple?

Because the bible uses the expression temple in different sections under different contexts, and bearing in mind what was said above, it can safely be said that this temple is not the same as the one mentioned in Revelation 21, which talks about that temple in which God dwells.

A case in point would be how the apostle Paul uses the word temple to mean an individual, or simply the corporate body of believers. That is why I am quick to suggest that people use the word in its liturgical context.

@ bobbyaf,

Rev 11 is talking about the events of the end time and not the dark ages. It is tempting to equate 1260 days to 1260 yrs and equate them as the dark ages. but you have taken a few events in isolation. What about the coming of the two witnesses in verse 3? obviously this is the second coming of Elijah and Moses.
Read verses 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. . That is clearly Elijah ( power to shut heaven that it rain not on the earth) and Moses ( water to blood, plagues). This did not in any way happen during the dark ages and infact does not happen until the last 3.5 yrs of the tribulation.
Why?
Look at verse 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. The beast is only given power on earth during the tribulation when he unleashes his full wrath on the earth and wages war against God's people.
Verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months; this is not the dark ages. This occurs at the same time all the other events in Rev 11 is occuring, at the same last 3.5 yrs of the great tribulation. The gentiles (this will include Russia, China and Arab nations) will thread the temple underfoot 3.5 yrs - 42 months -- 1260 days.

Chapt 12 of revelation speaks about the fate of the church left behind after the rapture AT THE SAME TIME the events in chapt 11 are unfolding. The same Chapts 11 and 12 continues in chapt 13, here John is shown the true nature of the beast as he rules the world in the last yrs of the tribulation. From 14 downward still talks about the same tail end of the tribulation, the woes that befall the earth finally ending with the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ with 10000s of His saints to conquer the enemy!

Reading a few verses is enough to build a doctrine, but the bible must be taken in context with others to fully understand the trail of events. None of these events happened in the dark ages!

TV01,

Good words. Smile.

Olawobale,

That was a wonderful way to teach about paradise and hell. Thank you.

Bobby,

Thank you.

I have asked about that verse before because some Christians teach some type of "rebuilt temple with sacrifices in Jerusalem" but there is no mention of any temple in the end times, unless you include that one.

However those verses calls it God's temple, which contradicts the idea of the 3rd temple they claim because the 3rd temple they talk about is supposed to be built by and for those opposed to God.

@ David

@ bobbyaf,

Rev 11 is talking about the events of the end time and not the dark ages. It is tempting to equate 1260 days to 1260 years and equate them as the dark ages. but you have taken a few events in isolation. What about the coming of the two witnesses in verse 3? obviously this is the second coming of Elijah and Moses.
Read verses 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. . That is clearly Elijah ( power to shut heaven that it rain not on the earth) and Moses ( water to blood, plagues). This did not in any way happen during the dark ages and infact does not happen until the last 3.5 years of the tribulation.
Why?
Look at verse 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. The beast is only given power on earth during the tribulation when he unleashes his full wrath on the earth and wages war against God's people.
Verse 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months; this is not the dark ages. This occurs at the same time all the other events in Rev 11 is occuring, at the same last 3.5 years of the great tribulation. The gentiles (this will include Russia, China and Arab nations) will thread the temple underfoot 3.5 years - 42 months -- 1260 days.

Chapt 12 of revelation speaks about the fate of the church left behind after the rapture AT THE SAME TIME the events in chapt 11 are unfolding. The same Chapts 11 and 12 continues in chapt 13, here John is shown the true nature of the beast as he rules the world in the last years of the tribulation. From 14 downward still talks about the same tail end of the tribulation, the woes that befall the earth finally ending with the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ with 10000s of His saints to conquer the enemy!

Reading a few verses is enough to build a doctrine, but the bible must be taken in context with others to fully understand the trail of events. None of these events happened in the dark ages!

Sorry David I find it hard keeping up with your posts. You need to stick with the topic. I find that people tend to talk about several sub-topics in an area that requires more specificity.

I would prefer if we discussed the topic of the tribulation in a more logical and orderly manner. A lot of new converts tend to be more confused than ever when they see us going back and forth in disagreement.