Please let us argue healthily. Thank you.

crackhaus: Logic and religion are on opposite ends in the spiritual spectrum.
Science on the other hand disproves both logic and religion.

Out of all three, only two can be taught and imparted onto a person...these are science and religion. For someone to be logical, he/she must have learnt and acquired at least a basic understanding of science and religion.
The kid in the article is said to be logical but at the same time has not been brought up with or taught religion...I disagree with this.

There can never be an absence of religion in anyone, because disbelieving or having no knowledge of a particular religion is in itself a religion...'A religion of disbelief and/or ignorance'.

As for morality, no one is born with the knowledge of morality (differentiating right from wrong and vice versa).
Even the atheists and agnostics live a moral life that is subject to the ethical and constitutional laws of the society they are in...which indirectly results from religion because most of our man-made ethics and constitutional laws are a direct or indirect consequence of religious laws.

For the last part, morality birthed religion not the other way around, even monkeys know it is wrong to steal.. Which religion taught them that??
Morality is a given, religions disagree on that which is right and that which is wrong.. What is morally right maybe religiously wrong, depending on the religion... Morality derives from reason, it is inductive.. Religion is deductive deriving from truths already established by reason (morals).. Morality is general while religion relies on the scriptures be it Bible, quran or whatever...
Morality does not depend on religion, religion depends on morality....

Nd what is religion of disbelief... A religion is a unified system of belief and practices related to sacred things or belief that relates one to spirituality, how does not having such beliefs equates to religion

here they come again

Gooci: I culd stay to read dat long message..... As regads the topic, what if dat kid leaves ds life

njokusboy: The fact that a deviant and other deviants like him disagree with that which is generally accepted does not make it relative.. He/they are merely trying to excuse their wrong, why do they run and hi
de after doing wrong... There aint nothing relative about it (stealing)

The fact that it is "generally accepted" does not make it right. Neither does the fact that they have deviated make them wrong. They would run and hide to avoid sanctions, not necessarily due to conscience or guilt. A morality that is subjective is not transcendant and if it's relative,it cannot be absolute, if it' not absolute, then it's mere convention

njokusboy:
It is objective and transcends any single individual... It is wrong in any human society....
Objectivity is antonymous to subjectivity not relativity...

No it is not objective. 30 years ago homosexuality was wrong, now it's right. Moral relativism. It's either always wrong or always right. Any morality that is not absolute is not really morality. I take your point about antonymity, but the point stands. It must be transcendant and absolute. Then we accept it objectively. Not subjectively or relatively


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aisha2: Please as much as we disagree with others daily here, calling another persons post a rant and "arrant nonsense" is not very nice. I would not respond in kind because I will just put it on you having a bad day, I doubt on a normal day you would respond with insults, on a good day You would normally respond on merits and demerits promoting a healthy debate.

Enjoy the rest of the lovely evening

I must confess you are right on pretty much every point you made. I hereby apologise. But damn, that post was poor - I was right on that point.


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njokusboy: For the last part, morality birthed religion not the other way around,

Lai, lai...without religion, there can be no absolute morality...we see that even as it's place recedes in daily life across nations.

njokusboy:
even monkeys know it is wrong to steal.. Which religion taught them that??

Who told you they know it's wrong. Dangerous, harmful, sanctionable maybe, but not wrong. Animals and nature do not determine or act moralistically.

njokusboy:
Morality is a given,

How, where, by whom or what? Morality that you have claimed to be relative and by agreement. How can it be a given? Especially as you've also noted - and I have shown - that it can be relative.

njokusboy:
religions disagree on that which is right and that which is wrong.. What is morally right maybe religiously wrong, depending on the religion...

Please provide examples - and I'd appreciate using Christianity which I know and practice.

njokusboy:
Morality derives from reason, it is inductive.. Religion is deductive deriving from truths already established by reason (morals).. Morality is general while religion relies on the scriptures be it Bible, quran or whatever...Morality does not depend on religion, religion depends on morality....

No way, that is counter-intuitive. Are you saying reasoning gave us religion. Please read what you wrote. The second bolded contradicts the first bolded. If religion - as you claim - is derived from truths established by reason, how can there religious rights that are moral wrongs.

njokusboy:
Nd what is religion of disbelief... A religion is a unified system of belief and practices related to sacred things or belief that relates one to spirituality, how does not having such beliefs equates to religion

I'm sure Crackhaus can respond, but religion does not have to about holiness/supernatural or the sacred. it can be merely about a tightly held orthodoxy or set of beliefs.


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njokusboy:

Agreed.. People do wrong and can't help.. Its human nature to err... However, one does not need a saviour to admit his wrong...

No. One needs a Saviour to get out of it.

njokusboy:

It is wrong to steal because it is only common sense to earn yours and not take away that which another man strove to earn thereby depriving him of the fruits of his labour.... Even atheists agree... You don't need any God to teach you that...

Nice argument.
Now, could you please help explain why only humans and not animals (Remember that animals act on instinct) have this sense of guilt? The truth is you can't successfully explain any virtue outside of God.

aisha2: After reading the thread on " Bird turns into girl" and seeing the response that follows I am tilting a little towards the poster.
We raise superstitious, fearful and sometimes lazy people now. Every challenge has to be from an "enemy", a squid was caught in Ibadan and the whole city of Professors went into a frenzy lynching and burning the poor fisher mans house.

We live in a society where you question a "miracle" baby and the whole squad comes on you calling you all sorts, someone will claim she was pregnant for 2 years, Oya which Doctor? What hospital? "No I went to "church" and the Pastor delivered me, scans showed an empty stomach". Or you have triplets after years of waiting and you are somehow ashamed to acknowledge the Doctors and the role of science you lie through your teeth that it was the oil you drank.

You wont invest in science or research but we can buy jets for our pastors then Ebola comes and we are begging a "godless" society to come and save us with their magic serum, what of our miracle dishing pastors?

A Pastor slaps a child in full glare of a crowd and cameras but he is untouchable and when he does it its not a crime because we are told to "Touch not"

We are aslo very selective eg: Death the Gay people but ignoring the same chapter just below also saying death to adulterers.

I am religious but rational, but I am called an atheist because I question a lot. I wouldnt want my child to grow up believing a bird will turn into a girl and proceed to join in lynching.

Someone has fertility challenges and instead of using the reproductive years to find out what is medically wrong they will be moving from church to church until the reproductive age has passed or almost over before trying IVF which by then has less than 10percent of working and it doesnt help that other women who had IVF will stand in church and shamelessly lie that it was the church that gave them "miracle babies"

Are you saying miracles aren't real?

crackhaus: Logic and religion are on opposite ends in the spiritual spectrum.
Science on the other hand disproves both logic and religion.

Out of all three, only two can be taught and imparted onto a person...these are science and religion. For someone to be logical, he/she must have learnt and acquired at least a basic understanding of science and religion.
The kid in the article is said to be logical but at the same time has not been brought up with or taught religion...I disagree with this.

There can never be an absence of religion in anyone, because disbelieving or having no knowledge of a particular religion is in itself a religion...'A religion of disbelief and/or ignorance'.

As for morality, no one is born with the knowledge of morality (differentiating right from wrong and vice versa).
Even the atheists and agnostics live a moral life that is subject to the ethical and constitutional laws of the society they are in...which indirectly results from religion because most of our man-made ethics and constitutional laws are a direct or indirect consequence of religious laws.

Beautiful submission!

Because so many fundamental religious stories involve magical elements to them — a man returning from the dead after three days, for example, or a prophet receiving messages from a talking, burning bush — children raised to take religion as truth have trouble distinguishing between fact and fiction. In religion classes and at home, these children may be discouraged from asking logic-based questions, since those questions equate disbelief, which many religions view as sinful.

LWKMD!!!!

Awon olodo rabata!!!!

Religion is REALLY an INSULT TO INTELLIGENCE!!!
I have seen many intelligent people become DAFT because of religion!
It is like joining a CULT!
Tufiaaaaaaaaaaaaaakwa!!!!!

smurfy:

Nice argument.
Now, could you please help explain why only humans and not animals (Remember that animals act on instinct) have this sense of guilt? The truth is you can't successfully explain any virtue outside of God.

who told you only humans have a sense of guilt, go do your research. other primates have a sense of what is fair and unfair, they run and hide when they commit an offence and they dont have a religion

TV01:
The fact that it is "generally accepted" does not make it right. Neither does the fact that they have deviated make them wrong. They would run and hide to avoid sanctions, not necessarily due to conscience or guilt. A morality that is subjective is not transcendant and if it's relative,it cannot be absolute, if it' not absolute, then it's mere convention


No it is not objective. 30 years ago homosexuality was wrong, now it's right. Moral relativism. It's either always wrong or always right. Any morality that is not absolute is not really morality. I take your point about antonymity, but the point stands. It must be transcendant and absolute. Then we accept it objectively. Not subjectively or relatively


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oga when you do something and your conscience pricks you or you feel guilty, you have done something wrong, its that simple, you cant feel guilty, atleast not when you feel you are right. Even deviants know. they are wrong, subjectivity only justifies their reason for doing wrong depending on the circumstances that led to it. under such conditions, the wrong doing can be excused but that doesnt make it right.

Homosexuality..These are controversial issues, although, i get your point, however, there are things which are right or wrong at all and everytime, armed robbery, murder... These things have never and would never be relative. It was wrong a 1000 yrs ago, it is wrong today and would be wrong tomorrow... They can be subjective like murder which could be excused as manslaughter or during wars.
Even the law gives room for subjectivity that is why trials exist even in the most glaring cases. Everything is subjective but relative?? i no gree

TV01:
I must confess you are right on pretty much every point you made. I hereby apologise. But damn, that post was poor - I was right on that point.
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Is there any satisfaction from insulting strangers?
This wasnt an apology, if being "Right" is all you want to be regardless of who you must be rude to so you can be "right" goodluck to you.

Excel in what aspect specifically?

No one can excel in Life without the true religion You can excel in Literature without God, e nor "consain" God. Wole Soyinka is a case study.

You can excel financially without God, e nor "consain" God. Bill Gates is a case study.

But you cannot excel in LIFE without GOD. "No more, no less" ke

How do I know this? You cannot separate GOD (Religion) from LIFE, for God is the giver of Life.

You doubt that? Point a gun and get it fired at your head, lets see if you'll come back to LIFE by your own EXCELLENCE.

You need to acknowledge that one mystical mystery - you cannot explain HIM no matter how hard you try ke

TV01:
Lai, lai...without religion, there can be no absolute morality...we see that even as it's place recedes in daily life across nations.


Who told you they know it's wrong. Dangerous, harmful, sanctionable maybe, but not wrong. Animals and nature do not determine or act moralistically.


How, where, by whom or what? Morality that you have claimed to be relative and by agreement. How can it be a given? Especially as you've also noted - and I have shown - that it can be relative.


Please provide examples - and I'd appreciate using Christianity which I know and practice.


No way, that is counter-intuitive. Are you saying reasoning gave us religion. Please read what you wrote. The second bolded contradicts the first bolded. If religion - as you claim - is derived from truths established by reason, how can there religious rights that are moral wrongs.


I'm sure Crackhaus can respond, but religion does not have to about holiness/supernatural or the sacred. it can be merely about a tightly held orthodoxy or set of beliefs.


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lai lai, without morality, there is no religion, morality helps correct the defects of religion, it is worse now that religion is killing people here and there.. one only needs to be reasonable and deduce what is right.. what is right or wrong is not subject to what is written in any holy book....

what do you mean by this? a monkey murders anothers kids or steals somerhing and goes into hiding and your excuse is that is harmful or sanctionable... sanctionable by whom or by what? This is the shallowest thing i have ever seen you write.. The animal knows it has done wrong.. it is as simple as ABC.

somethings are wrong at all times and places.. there is nothing relative about them. as i have ahown earlier.

what is wrong with working on the sabbath when you are merely trying to survive? what is wrong in worshipping an idol. shey na choice? this things are only wrong because the bible says they are.... is it right to marry a 13 year old? some religions say there is nothing wrong with it.

morality is the bedrock on which all religions are built, other religions have however added some of their own beliefs, it is what distinguishes them, but the basic foundation is basically the same.

aisha2: Is there any satisfaction from insulting strangers?
This wasnt an apology, if being "Right" is all you want to be regardless of who you must be rude to so you can be "right" goodluck to you.

Aunti Aisha2, you won't leave me. I knew I should have just waka pass jejely...but after a number of what I considered "off posts", I couldn't resist it, especially as CFW set you straight.

Now, you are right, if I have issue with a post or poster, I should respond direct to the content. And for that I apologise. I know better. But the fact remains; in the words of the speedster Usain Bolt..."your post was a bit shite"

It wasn't a question of my being right. If that was my aim, I'd have shredded your post myself. It was more a case of schadenfreude on my part . Thanks again CFW.

Now, as for your sanctimoniously trying to adopt the moral high ground and "shame" me. Sister forget that. Firstly, I no dey shame ! Secondly, your post took a whole class of people and a whole religion and wrongly denigrated both them and it - one of the reasons it was piss poor. You have no ground to stand on and you should be contrite - notice how you haven't actually retracted your error?

Do have a pleasant weekend


TV

Wait first, lemme go back... Was it CFW or aisha you were bashing....

TV01:
Aunti Aisha2, you won't leave me. I knew I should have just waka pass jejely...but after a number of what I considered off posts, I couldn't resist it, especially as CFW set you straight.
Now, you are right, if I have issue with a post or poster, I should respond direct to the content. And for that I apologise. I know better. But the fact remains; in the words of the speedster Usain Bolt..."your post was a bit shite"
It wasn't a question of my being right. If that was my aim, I'd have shredded your post myself. It was more a case of schadenfreude on my part . Thanks again CFW.
Now, as for your sanctimoniously trying to adopt the moral high ground and "shame" me. Sister forget that. Firstly, I no dey shame ! Secondly, your post took a whole class of people and a whole religion and wrongly denigrated both them and it - one of the reasons it was piss poor. You have no ground to stand on and you should be contrite - notice how you haven't actually retracted your error?
Do have a pleasant weekend
TV

"Shame" you ke? I just expect insults and rudeness from bored teenagers which would normally be ignored not from some posters.

As for my post, that is my view, I didnt use insulting words to describe the actions people commit under religious beliefs, i simply stated things and acts that makes me question the faith we adopt and practice here, that is different from being insulting.
Its done jare. Have a great day

Now I see.... Is superstition not religion... Even educated people believe in such superstitions....

Morrin',

njokusboy:
oga when you do something and your conscience pricks you or you feel guilty, you have done something wrong, its that simple, you cant feel guilty, atleast not when you feel you are right. Even deviants know. they are wrong, subjectivity only justifies their reason for doing wrong depending on the circumstances that led to it. under such conditions, the wrong doing can be excused but that doesnt make it right.

If morality is conscience or feeling dependent, then it remains relative. It has to be transcendent and objective. Only God (not necessarily religion) can provide that.

njokusboy:
Homosexuality..These are controversial issues, although, i get your point, however, there are things which are right or wrong at all and everytime, armed robbery, murder... These things have never and would never be relative. It was wrong a 1000 yrs ago, it is wrong today and would be wrong tomorrow... They can be subjective like murder which could be excused as manslaughter or during wars.
Even the law gives room for subjectivity that is why trials exist even in the most glaring cases. Everything is subjective but relative?? i no gree

Armed robbery is just exaggerated theft. As for murder, why are both both mother and Doctor able to assent/assist the termination of a viable baby during an abortion, and for no reason other than convenience without a prick of conscience?

Morals without God can be both subjective and relative. They can be taught and untaught. Again on murder; how did the whole of Germany under the Nazis accede to the pogrom against the Jews? Simply because the ethical and moral orthodoxt they inculcated said it was a "good thing".

As smurfy beautifully put it; "outside God there is no virtue". He alone is good. And more than that, Holy and unchanging.


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aisha2:

"Shame" you ke? I just expect insults and rudeness from bored teenagers which would normally be ignored not from some posters.

As for my post, that is my view, I didnt use insulting words to describe the actions people commit under religious beliefs, i simply stated things and acts that makes me question the faith we adopt and practice here, that is different from being insulting.
Its done jare. Have a great day

I don't see anything wrong with your post aswear... Most of the pastors that endorse those beliefs are highly Educated... I dont agree lack of education is why.... I choose to blame it on religion...

U know what they say about opinions and a$$ holes, "everybody got one and everybody thinks everybody elses, stink....

njokusboy: Wait first, lemme go back... Was it CFW or aisha you were bashing....

Please...I wasn't bashing anyone 0 !

I have way more interaction with CFW and disagree much more with her. But CFW gets that debate can be both heated and robust. I actually agree with some of Aisha2 comments, it's just that she has this sanctimonious manner and and loves being prescriptive. I mostly ignore or have a silent chuckle to myself. I should have maintained that, but glee cash' me !


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njokusboy: I don't see anything wrong with your post aswear... Most of the pastors that endorse those beliefs are highly Educated... I dont agree lack of education is why.... I choose to blame it on religion...

U know what they say about opinions and a$$ holes, "everybody got one and everybody thinks everybody elses, stink....

...what obtains in Nigeria is a consequence of the people, their culture, their education - or lack of, and more latterly of the economic climate. It's not an indictment of the religion...just how they choose to practice (or exploit it). That's what Aisha2 missed (or ignored) and CFW clearly pointed out.

And as Smurfyy noted, tha fact that Aisha has not seen or does not believe in miracles is no proof they don't happen. Even if Aisha2 does believe, the fact that miracles are sometimes faked, is also not proof they don't happen.

So I know I was a bit off in my remarks - and perhaps breached protocol, so I wholeheartedly apologise. That's not to shy away from what I think of the post. Please, if it was a male, I would have e-dissed him more sef !


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TV01: Morrin',

If morality is conscience or feeling dependent, then it remains relative. It has to be transcendent and objective. Only God (not necessarily religion) can provide that.


Armed robbery is just exaggerated theft. As for murder, why are both both mother and Doctor able to assent/assist the termination of a viable baby during an abortion, and for no reason other than convenience without a prick of conscience?

Morals without God can be both subjective and relative. They can be taught and untaught. Again on murder; how did the whole of Germany under the Nazis accede to the pogrom against the Jews? Simply because the ethical and moral orthodoxt they inculcated said it was a "good thing".

As smurfy beautifully put it; "outside God there is no virtue". He alone is good. And more than that, Holy and unchanging.


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Mind you, God is the most unobjective and untranscendant subject matter...... God is the most relative too.... Morality makes more sense than God... If you only do right because you are scared of your father in heaven, it means you are bad, you automatically become a R'a'pi'st and a thief if that God is is taken off the picture... You only do good because you are scared of spending eternity in a blazing furnance with brimstones.... I refuse to believe that of you... It is preposterous....

Armed robbery and murder is wrong, let's first accept that... It is also subjective.. I stated that subjectivity only serves to justify. There is no moral ground where abortion is concerned as not all agree that abortion is murder.. Not when you are yet to prove that what you are aborting is human.... Everybody agrees it is wrong to kill with intent or even without (manslaughter)... You cannot have a conscience when you are assured you have done no wrong..

Aleast u accede that there is morals without God but there is no God without morals... Religion only preaches dogma... And the notion of God is not objective, it is more subjective and relative than anything else... If anything, morals make more sense, atleast a lot more people agree... The christians, muslims, hindus, taoists, buddhists and even atheists have a common moral foundation... God is subject to over how many religions and relates to time, place, infact everything...
As for your postulation, the whole of Germany didn't think it was morally right to massacre jews, there were only after their own interest, their interest in this case surpassed their morals... Man is a selfish being...

Smurfly is wrong, millions have died in the name of God, so there is nothing holy about him... God murdered his creation and left only Noah, its not morally right to murder people because they sinned against you... Nd God has been in constant change, across the years, religions, denominations ETC.. There is no agreed definition of what God is....

njokusboy:
lai lai, without morality, there is no religion, morality helps correct the defects of religion, it is worse now that religion is killing people here and there.. one only needs to be reasonable and deduce what is right.. what is right or wrong is not subject to what is written in any holy book....

You've said religion springs out of morality, and now that morality corrects the defects of religion? Anyway.
What people do in the name of religion - as I've pointed out in a previous post - is not necessarily about the religion per se.
If one can reason towards what is right, one can reason away from it. And ultimately, if there is no God and no judgement, why does it matter?

njokusboy:
what do you mean by this? a monkey murders anothers kids or steals somerhing and goes into hiding and your excuse is that is harmful or sanctionable... sanctionable by whom or by what? This is the shallowest thing i have ever seen you write.. The animal knows it has done wrong.. it is as simple as ABC.

I already stated that nature is not moralstic. Animals are driven by instinct - thanks again smurfy
When a new leader takes over a pride of lions, it kills all the baby cubs? Wither conscience? or is infanticide not morally wrong? Does it hide or run? No. Because no one can say to it "what have you done" or judge it. And believe me, I have written some really shallow things, but that is not one of them !

njokusboy:
somethings are wrong at all times and places.. there is nothing relative about them. as i have ahown earlier.

And as I have shown. All moral constructs that are not from above, or not transcendent, are therefore subjective, and can be relativised or changed.

njokusboy:
what is wrong with working on the sabbath when you are merely trying to survive? what is wrong in worshipping an idol. shey na choice? this things are only wrong because the bible says they are.... is it right to marry a 13 year old? some religions say there is nothing wrong with it.

Christianity doesn't demand a sabbath. If you belive in a transcendant God, why would you worship an idol? If you don't, why worship anything? In any event, Christinity does not deny you your choice.

Some cultures - without religion - allow 13 year olds - and younger to engage in intercourse and have abortions. And they see it as morally right. Is that better than allowing them to marry at that same age? Not that I'm championing marriage or sex at that age

njokusboy: morality is the bedrock on which all religions are built, other religions have however added some of their own beliefs, it is what distinguishes them, but the basic foundation is basically the same.

Religions proffer morals, but don't arise due to, or in order to codify morals. But the point is not about religion per se, but the fact that there is a Lawgiver. And only with a Lawgiver can we have an absolute moral reality.

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TV01:

...what obtains in Nigeria is a consequence of the people, their culture, their education - or lack of, and more latterly of the economic climate. It's not an indictment of the religion...just how they choose to practice (or exploit it). That's what Aisha2 missed (or ignored) and CFW clearly pointed out.

And as Smurfyy noted, tha fact that Aisha has not seen or does not believe in miracles is no proof they don't happen. Even if Aisha2 does believe, the fact that miracles are sometimes faked, is also not proof they don't happen.

So I know I was a bit off in my remarks - and perhaps breached protocol, so I wholeheartedly apologise. That's not to shy away from what I think of the post. Please, if it was a male, I would have e-dissed him more sef !


TV

I never said miracles DO NOT EXIST. I said unsubstantiated miracles and gave clear examples of the situations I was referring to.
If God does allow it I doubt IVF would be successful, as the failure rates are high.
My issue was clearly with women who had visibly done IVF going to lie and claim it was pastor, why not give a true full testimony so others too can learn instead of running around endlessly? If you give a testimony and state that you had IVF and the various trying stages and at the end you have your beautiful babies does it diminish the hand of God? is it not God who gives the Doctors the knowledge?

Second example is miracle babies testimony, I work in social development so I see the stunk, when they are caught and claim they were pregnant they have no single evidence to show such, they will refer you to a lab they tested and after investigation you discover that there is nothing like that, yet when they come on line and give the obvious lie many swallow it hook line and sinker, they say they visited various hospital yet no Doctor would be interviewed to collaborate.

Not one sentence in my 7 paragraphs did i say miracles do not exist. If you had brought that out I would have clearly told you and saved you the energy of assuming and insulting me based on that

I have seen miracles, my whole life is a miracle, some time ago I was told I may not live past 25, and with medical help, staying on track and constantly crying to God I have lived way beyond 25.

TV01:
You've said religion springs out of morality, and now that morality corrects the defects of religion? Anyway.
What people do in the name of religion - as I've pointed out in a previous post - is not necessarily about the religion per se.
If one can reason towards what is right, one can reason away from it. And ultimately, if there is no God and no judgement, why does it matter?


I already stated that nature is not moralstic. Animals are driven by instinct - thanks again smurfy
When a new leader takes over a pride of lions, it kills all the baby cubs? Wither conscience? or is infanticide not morally wrong? Does it hide or run? No. Because no one can say to it "what have you done" or judge it. And believe me, I have written some really shallow things, but that is not one of them !


And as I have shown. All moral constructs that are not from above, or not transcendent, are therefore subjective, and can be relativised or changed.


Christianity doesn't demand a sabbath. If you belive in a transcendant God, why would you worship an idol? If you don't, why worship anything? In any event, Christinity does not deny you your choice.

Some cultures - without religion - allow 13 year olds - and younger to engage in intercourse and have abortions. And they see it as morally right. Is that better than allowing them to marry at that same age? Not that I'm championing marriage or sex at that age


Religions proffer morals, but don't arise due to, or in order to codify morals. But the point is not about religion per se, but the fact that there is a Lawgiver. And only with a Lawgiver can we have an absolute moral reality.

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I said religion springs out of morality, morality encompasses religion, we therefore look up to morals for correction when religion starts to preach nonsense... Nd what people do in the name of religion has everything to do with that religion... What else is the cause? So if there is no God and no judgement you would become a serial killer or a rap'ist'? So you are not one because you are scared of God or judgement?
Atleast you have admitted that morality exists outside religion..

There is a reason why I picked primates, primates think, they are not like lions... Although that selfishness is there.. Interest they say is thicker than blood... Primates know to protect their family... They know what is right and fair, they know to make tools... They don't have a God yet they steal and hide.. That is not instinct.. That is reason...

Nd I have also shown you that God is not transcendant, God changes, God is relative and subjective... Nd who says christianity does not demand a sabbath? Christianity says you would go to hell if you exercise your freedom of choice.. Anyway the point is that all this things are religiously right but not so morally...

I find it difficult to separate culture from religion.. Can you give an example of one such cultures??

Religions profer morals, same thing as there is morals without religion and morals actually came before it.. Religions have also coined their own form of morals to suit their practices and teaching... There is no lawgiver, the concept of a lawgiver was coined by man to enforce morals and frighten wrong doers....

I fear for the generation my child will be born into. I shudder at the tot of it

Lord have mercy
It is sodom and gomorraha happening all over again
Geessss

njokusboy: There is a reason why I picked primates, primates think, they are not like lions... Although that selfishness is there.. Interest they say is thicker than blood... Primates know to protect their family... They know what is right and fair, they know to make tools... They don't have a God yet they steal and hide.. That is not instinct.. That is reason...

Monkey Bizness !

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1882134/why_do_chimps_attack_and_kill_each_other/
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081230122812AAsLTu5


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPznMbNcfO8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM

Once again, nature is not morally deterministic and animals act on instinct. Chimpanzees (the most intelligent non-human primates) commit murder, including infanticide. They are also canniballistic. And yes thier "reasoning" informs their actions, but not in a moral sense.

TV

Why?

rofemiguwa: I fear for the generation my child will be born into. I shudder at the tot of it

Lord have mercy
It is sodom and gomorraha happening all over again
Geessss

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