Joshthefirst post=/post/26823673:
One example.

A glass of cold water and hot water are placed close. Heat naturally flows from the hot glass to the cold glass until equilibrium is obtained.

Heat will not spontaneously flow from the cold glass to the hot glass, causing the cold glass to get colder and the hot glass to get hotter. Why?

It is in keeping with the 2nd law.
Natural processes which require energy transfers will always go for the state of increased entropy.

Evolution is claimed to be a natural process, does it result in an increase or decrease in entropy?

Correct any lapses I might have, Thank youm

The second law of thermodynamics is used for the amount of work a system has lost....
NOTE:energy is the ability to do work....
It is denoted by joules per kelvin...when people talk about the entropy of the earth as to regarding life...they want to know why work is in abundance to permit complex life biochemistry...and that is why we tell them that the earth receives more useful energy from the sun(plus our own core) than it expends....and that aspect was demonstrated in the urri miller(not sure of his name) experiment that imperfectly replicated an primordial earth-like environment...
The bottom line is the organic chemistry...the useful energy...and the minimal entropy(less useful energy)played a role to permit life

davien:
The process of evolution is performed by succesive generations of more successful mutations(beneficial or random) that natural processes favour.....through successful lineages more variations and other factors lead to even more diverse species....although evolution abides by some important laws or theorems...these are;

Dollo's law of irreversibility: Organisms that had inherited new traits cannot de-evolve into their basal forms....even avatisms(re-occurent ancestral features) cannot function as it once did....this is why reverse engineering is so difficult....individual mutations like colour,size,body size etc may fluctuate but the initial way such features were derived cannot be induced...
The meat of all this is that organisms that have acquired entirely new features cannot re-adapt such features to the way they were...and may actually become so specialized at its features that it cannot adapt to new changes..
We can't grow back our tails because they've been absorbed and there is nothing to build up on....
Darwins 2nd law of common ancestry; One branch of life cannot beget a fundamentally different kind(outside its ancestry)....they all belong to their irrespective genetic heirachies and taxonomic states and branch off into new ones....
This is to say a eukaryote will still branch off into a eukaryote(of varied features) that can never be classified outside of its ancestral feature....
This is why humans by taxonomy and definition are still apes(subsets actually)
ALTHOUGH IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO WHY THE ENERGY FOR SUCH A SYSTEM HAS NOT BEEN EXPENDED IT IS THE VERY REASON YOU EAT DAILY....TO PROVIDE IT WITH MORE ENERGY(BIOCHEMICAL POTENTIAL TO BE PRECISE)...
More to come.....busy at the moment...

You kept mentioning successive in your first paragraph. Do these successive beneficial processes occur spontaneously or not?

Joshthefirst:
You kept mentioning successive in your first paragraph. Do these successive beneficial processes occur spontaneously or not?

yes and no.....yes in the aspect that there are mutations that purely give advantageous benefits without any interaction with external forces and no in the aspect that neutral mutations becomes useful by natural selection...

davien:
yes and no.....yes in the aspect that there are mutations that purely give advantageous benefits without any interaction with external forces and no in the aspect that neutral mutations becomes useful by natural selection...

Have you come across any mutations that give advantageous benefits that occur in nature spontaneously?

Joshthefirst:
Have you come across any mutations that give advantageous benefits that occur in nature spontaneously?

sure these are a few variant gene mutations that occur in nature;
Duffy antigen gene variants - for protection against plasmodium vivax malaria infection
Lipoprotein Lipase mutations - for reduced risk of heart disease
Myostatin gene mutations - for increased muscle mass
just to name a few....

Pls u guys should keep this thread alive, its really educative.

plaetton:
"A directed process must have director" is a silly proposition that does not belong anywhere close to a scientific argument.

Wow! Why Plaetton why?

MrAnony1:


Wow! Why Plaetton why?

Yeah .
To make the magical leap that natural processes are directed, and therefore, must have a director, a presumed personality is as silly as saying that thunder and lightning occur because someone, a director (lol), is angry in the sky.
Let me guess, you're going to come up with some twisted logic.

plaetton:


Yeah .
To make the magical leap that natural processes are directed, and therefore, must have a director, a presumed personality is as silly as saying that thunder and lightning occur because someone, a director (lol), is angry in the sky.
Let me guess, you're going to come up with some twisted logic.

When gases react, they do so in volumes which bear in simple ratio to one another, and to the volume of the product if gaseous, P%T remaining constant. Gay Lussac's law of combining volume.

Why does this law hold true, Plaetton?

MrPresident1:


When gases react, they do so in volumes which bear in simple ratio to one another, and to the volume of the product if gaseous, P%T remaining constant. Gay Lussac's law of combining volume.

Why does this law hold true, Plaetton?

Mathematics, sir.
The language of the universe.
All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others. Also, their mathematical relationships determine their motions, their geometry , and their properties.

Do not forget that mathematical relationships are fixed and not arbitrary.

plaetton:


Mathematics, sir.
The language of the universe.
All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others. Also, their mathematical relationships determine their motions, their geometry , and their properties.

Do not forget that mathematical relationships are fixed and not arbitrary.

Have you ever considered the complexity of a Boeing 747 airplane?

See this scenario;
All the parts of a Boeing 747; engines, bolts, nuts, fuel, etc., are scattered around in a confined space, what is the mathematical probability that a hurricane travelling at a speed of 180km/hr, blown into that confined space, would successfully assemble that Boeing 747 right to the last nut, and ready to fly, P&T remaining constant?

MrPresident1:

Have you ever considered the complexity of a Boeing 747 airplane?
See this scenario;
All the parts of a Boeing 747; engines, bolts, nuts, fuel, etc., are scattered around in a confined space, what is the mathematical probability that a hurricane travelling at a speed of 180km/hr, blown into that confined space, would successfully assemble that Boeing 747 right to the last nut, and ready to fly, P&T remaining constant?

The same probability of your magical skymaster riding down from the clouds during the feast of roshashanna.
Speaking of roshashanna, aren't you supposed to have been raptured to heaven or something on September25?
Did jesus reschedule again?

Martian:


The same probability of your magical skymaster riding down from the clouds during the feast of roshashanna.
Speaking of roshashanna, aren't you supposed to have been raptured to heaven or something on September25?
Did jesus reschedule again?

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:

The noose around your neck is tightening slowly.

MrPresident1:


Have you ever considered the complexity of a Boeing 747 airplane?

See this scenario;
All the parts of a Boeing 747; engines, bolts, nuts, fuel, etc., are scattered around in a confined space, what is the mathematical probability that a hurricane travelling at a speed of 180km/hr, blown into that confined space, would successfully assemble that Boeing 747 right to the last nut, and ready to fly, P&T remaining constant?

Lol! @ the Boeing 747 argument for god. That argument is so infantile, it is not worth repudiating again.
Now, have you ever considered the beauty, complexity, symmetry, geometry and the mathematical exactitude of a randomly formed snowflake?

MrPresident1:


Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:

The noose around your neck is tightening slowly.

Why don't you stand on a stool,put a noose around your neck and kick. Since space genie didn't show up to take you to paradise, you need to take the initiative and do your best to get there asap.

plaetton:


Lol! @ the Boeing 747 argument for god. That argument is so infantile, it is not worth repudiating again.
Now, have you ever considered the beauty, complexity, symmetry, geometry and the mathematical exactitude of a randomly formed snowflake?

The 747 argument is chosen because it is easier seen through the mind’s eye. It is practical, logical and scientific.

Now take a very good look at your own words, from a self-acclaimed scientist; you talk about beauty, complexity, symmetry, geometry, and exactitude, and yet you say 'randomly formed'?

Don't you think you are creating doubts about your intelligence?

MrPresident1:


The 747 argument is chosen because it is easier seen through the mind’s eye. It is practical, logical and scientific.

Now take a very good look at your own words, from a self-acclaimed scientist; you talk about beauty, complexity, symmetry, geometry, and exactitude, and yet you say 'randomly formed'?

Don't you think you are creating doubts about your intelligence?

They are not my own words. They are fact. Snowflakes are created randomly when the atmospheric conditions ( mathematical relationships) are right.
No sentiments. No director. Infact, no two snowflakes are ever the same,. Suggesting that atmospheric conditions are always in random flux.
No director required.

plaetton:


Mathematics, sir.
The language of the universe.

Mind --> Thought --> Word --> Language.
Mathematics exist as the language of the universe because a Mind exists that understands and communicates the order and mechanism of the universe.

All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others.

All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others in your physics textbooks; and that is because the purpose of your textbooks is to communicate the mechanism and order in the universe with the language of mathematics.

Also, their mathematical relationships determine their motions, their geometry , and their properties.

Nope. Maths is a language- The language can only describe the relationships, motions, geometry and the properties.

Do not forget that mathematical relationships are fixed and not arbitrary.

With the above quote, you just provided an evidence for God.
The relationship mathematics describes is fixed because their is order in the mechanism of the universe. Order in complexity exist because the Intelligent Mind designed it.

SNCOQ3:


Mind --> Thought --> Word --> Language.
Mathematics exist as the language of the universe because a Mind exists that understands and communicates the order and mechanism of the universe.


All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others in your physics textbooks; and that is because the purpose of your textbooks is to communicate the mechanism and order in the universe with the language of mathematics.


Nope. Maths is a language- The language can only describe the relationships, motions, geometry and the properties.


With the above quote, you just provided an evidence for God.
The relationship mathematics describes is fixed because their is order in the mechanism of the universe. Order in complexity exist because the Intelligent Mind designed it.

So many fallacies. I will shred them later when I have time.


Let me chip in here that the laws of mathematics

plaetton:


They are not my own words. They are fact. Snowflakes are created randomly when the atmospheric conditions ( mathematical relationships) are right.
No sentiments. No director. Infact, no two snowflakes are ever the same,. Suggesting that atmospheric conditions are always in random flux.
No director required.

I get your argument now.

Let us extrapolate logically from your deductions on the formation of snowflakes;
You are just the random product of the spiritual konji of two people. The place and circumstances (mathematics relationships, atmospheric conditions) was right.
You are, Plaetton, because two (perhaps sex-starved) people bleeped!
Plaetton is created randomly when the spiritual kongi of two people is right, no director, no sentiments, no plan, and perhaps no purpose.

Simplistic as my arguments may sound, do they adequately represent your position on this issue, given that snowflakes are randomly generated, (and perhaps without purpose too),Plaetton?

plaetton:


They are not my own words. They are fact. Snowflakes are created randomly when the atmospheric conditions ( mathematical relationships) are right.
No sentiments. No director. Infact, no two snowflakes are ever the same,. Suggesting that atmospheric conditions are always in random flux.
No director required.

Atmospheric Conditions generating complex multi-symmetrically designed snowflakes at random is governed by a complex Physical Law. Physical laws are laws because they are ordered and consistent.

Their are proofs that an intelligent mind can create an ordered, consistent, physical law to govern the generation of random but well designed objects.

I(mind) wrote this code below to command (condition) my computer(environment) to generate random integer numbers. (no floating-point numbers...just integers).

--------------------------

#include <time.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

srand(time(NULL));
int random_integers = rand();

-----------------------

Game programmers have used this techniques as a means to generate fractals like snowflakes in conjunction with recursive functions.

SNCOQ3:


Mind --> Thought --> Word --> Language.
Mathematics exist as the language of the universe because a Mind exists that understands and communicates the order and mechanism of the universe.

No...mathematics is referred to as a language because it is a definitive representation of causality.... that is to say that the cause and effect manner in which the universe works by is represented by defined mathematical symbols....in much the same way we represent objects and actions in reality by symbols and utterances.....it is the representation of phenomenon with symbols and other man made definitive terms that we refer to as language.....and this is all due to our own minds ability to draw patterns from nature....

All things in the universe have a mathematical relationship to others in your physics textbooks; and that is because the purpose of your textbooks is to communicate the mechanism and order in the universe with the language of mathematics.

The purpose of our textbooks is not to communicate any mechanism of order in the universe but to deduce and represent physical phenomena in a way that is definitive....well understood and predictable......else if it was mechanism of order mathematics focused on then abstract random events like chaos and random extrapolations cannot be quantified(yet we do this and it is because these attributes are represented by figures and symbols that we merge together to understand and try to predict them) for example if all the matter on the earth were a vacuum it would still be represented to have a quantify-able vacuum energy that cannot be reduced till matter is re-introduced into the system...

Nope. Maths is a language- The language can only describe the relationships, motions, geometry and the properties.

and do you know why mathematics can do this? It is because we give definition to the abstract phenomenon we observe and convert those definitions into symbols that we interact with each other till relationships can be derived...that is why a phenomenon such as heat loss can be quantified as entropy in joules/kelvin...

With the above quote, you just provided an evidence for God.
The relationship mathematics describes is fixed because their is order in the mechanism of the universe. Order in complexity exist because the Intelligent Mind designed it.

with your staggering inability to understand the definitive and symbolical representation that is mathematics you've proven your points to be invalid.....good day sir! mathematics simply seek patterns....not order!

plaetton:

So many fallacies. I will shred them later when I have time.

Their are no fallacies but I await your rebuttal.

Let me chip in here that the laws of mathematics

Please indicate if you have decided to "switch" from 'the language of mathematics' to 'the laws of mathematics'.

Nevertheless, what we understand as ' the law of mathematics' is our description of Physical Laws.

It might interest you to know that some laws of mathematics are man-made laws that do not reflect natural laws. Example: Matrix Multiplication.

It might also interest you to know that in nano-scale level fabrication of transistors for microchips, circuits are forced and manipulated to obey Maxwell's Equation- I hope you understand what that implies.

davien:
No...mathematics is referred to as a language because it is a definitive representation of causality.... that is to say that the cause and effect manner in which the universe works by is represented by defined mathematical symbols....in much the same way we represent objects and actions in reality by symbols and utterances.....it is the representation of phenomenon with symbols and other man made definitive terms that we refer to as language.....and this is all due to our own minds ability to draw patterns from nature....

The purpose of our textbooks is not to communicate any mechanism of order in the universe but to deduce and represent physical phenomena in a way that is definitive....well understood and predictable......else if it was mechanism of order mathematics focused on then abstract random events like chaos and random extrapolations cannot be quantified(yet we do this and it is because these attributes are represented by figures and symbols that we merge together to understand and try to predict them) for example if all the matter on the earth were a vacuum it would still be represented to have a quantify-able vacuum energy that cannot be reduced till matter is re-introduced into the system...

and do you know why mathematics can do this? It is because we give definition to the abstract phenomenon we observe and convert those definitions into symbols that we interact with each other till relationships can be derived...that is why a phenomenon such as heat loss can be quantified as entropy in joules/kelvin...

with your staggering inability to understand the definitive and symbolical representation that is mathematics you've proven your points to be invalid.....good day sir! mathematics simply seek patterns....not order!

In an effort to refute mathematics a language, you unwittingly prove it a language albeit the long and tedious way.

SNCOQ3:


In an effort to refute mathematics a language, you unwittingly prove it a language albeit the long and tedious way.

lmao.....i made no attempt to refute mathematics as a language....
perhaps my statement that mathematics is a language in the same sense....that we relate to objects and phenomena in reality using symbols and utterances wasn't clear enough
you claimed mathematics was used to explain "the order of the universe" and i merely pointed out it being used to draw patterns even from the most inane disorderly identities....it is the methodology itself that represents such workings of the universe in orderly concepts....an example is chaos theory were nonlinear events have to be represented in concise predictable forms....

BY THE WAY ARE YOU A CREATIONIST?

davien:
lmao.....i made no attempt to refute mathematics as a language....
perhaps my statement that mathematics is a language in the same sense....that we relate to objects and phenomena in reality using symbols and utterances wasn't clear enough
you claimed mathematics was used to explain "the order of the universe" and i merely pointed out it being used to draw patterns even from the most inane disorderly identities....it is the methodology itself that represents such workings of the universe in orderly concepts....an example is chaos theory were nonlinear events have to be represented in concise predictable forms....

BY THE WAY ARE YOU A CREATIONIST?

Alright you agree its a language.. that is fine.

I am a Child of God that enjoys praying in tongues.

You said:

with your staggering inability to understand the definitive and symbolical representation that is mathematics you've proven your points to be invalid.....good day sir! cheesy mathematics simply seek patterns....not order!

You went off-tangent with the above. My argument is not about "the nature of the language of mathematics " so you have not invalidated anything...lol.
Mathematics does not seek pattern, science does. Maths is the tool or the language(depending on the context).
by the way, pattern exist because order does.

SNCOQ3:

Alright you agree its a language.. that is fine.

I am a Child of God that enjoys praying in tongues.

You said:

You went off-tangent with the above. My argument is not about "the nature of the language of mathematics " so you have not invalidated anything...lol.
Mathematics does not seek pattern, science does. Maths is the tool or the language(depending on the context).
by the way, pattern exist because order does.

Explain to me how your argument wasn't made invalid by you not understanding what mathematics actually is.....I will deal with both the highlighted statements....
1.mathematics is a branch of science and like all sciences seeks patterns.....here have a read for yourself;

" Mathematicians seek out patterns [9][10] and use them to formulate
new conjectures . "

[url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics [/url]

2.you claiming patterns exists because order does is a fallacy.....first you just made a claim as true without giving definitive demonstrations....patterns can be derived from any disorderly object or phenomenon.....infact.....psychotherapists employ random imagery to reveal our notions on them....and naturally we derive ordered notions from them....patterns exist in everything no matter how random and order isn't a factor....

davien:

Explain to me how your argument wasn't made invalid by you not understanding what mathematics actually is.....I will deal with both the highlighted statements....

Guy, your argument don miss target. Unfortunately, you seem to relish your off-tangent trajectory...carry go

1.mathematics is a branch of science and like all sciences seeks patterns.....here have a read for yourself;

Mathematics in and of itself, is not science.

" Mathematicians seek out patterns [9][10] and use them to formulate
new conjectures . "
[url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics [/url]

seek out pattern to what purpose?
formulate new conjecture from what? and for what purpose?

Your attempt to answer the above will only reveal which field is using it as a tool.

You are quoting wikipedia out of context. Any honest person who study the wiki page you linked will conclude that maths is a tool for science and other disciplines...you should stop being a joker.

2.you claiming patterns exists because order does is a fallacy.....first you just made a claim as true without giving definitive demonstrations....patterns can be derived from any disorderly object or phenomenon.....infact.....psychotherapists employ random imagery to reveal our notions on them....and naturally we derive ordered notions from them....patterns exist in everything no matter how random and order isn't a factor....

Define pattern.

SNCOQ3:

Guy, your argument don miss target. Unfortunately, you seem to relish your off-tangent trajectory...carry go

I clearly and honestly asked you to show my error and you don't on the count that i "relish" my alleged error?

Mathematics in and of itself, is not science.

please explain why mathematics is not science...and do note however that science works by these criteria;
a. testable models

b. well defined terminology and units...

c. makes accurate predictions about future data

d. is independently verify-able and falsify-able

e. matches the phenomenon represented accurately

seek out pattern to what purpose?
formulate new conjecture from what? and for what purpose?

The purpose is simple....to understand reality....and conjectures are derived by the representation of the phenomenon using mathematical symbols,theorems and models....to match the the unknown identity represented....

You are quoting wikipedia out of context. Any honest person who study the wiki page you linked will conclude that maths is a tool for science and other disciplines...you should stop being a joker.

really?....again stop beating around the bush and provide the basis for your claims......i have listed the criteria for science above

Define pattern.

patterns are features that correlate with each other....and may have a repeated outline that can be followed or studied....

.

MrPresident1:


I get your argument now.

Let us extrapolate logically from your deductions on the formation of snowflakes;
You are just the random product of the spiritual konji of two people. The place and circumstances (mathematics relationships, atmospheric conditions) was right.
You are, Plaetton, because two (perhaps sex-starved) people bleeped!
Plaetton is created randomly when the spiritual kongi of two people is right, no director, no sentiments, no plan, and perhaps no purpose.

Simplistic as my arguments may sound, do they adequately represent your position on this issue, given that snowflakes are randomly generated, (and perhaps without purpose too) Plaetton?

You defeat whatever arguments you intended when you invoke the word" spiritual". That nullified it and made a non- scientific, non rational argument.

But quite frankly, we do understand the processes of human reproduction. It is not a scriptural mystery. It is certainly not the same as invoking and unknown entity to take credit for complex processes that we don't understand.

davien:
I clearly and honestly asked you to show my error and you don't on the count that i "relish" my alleged error?

Dude, scroll up and discover your attempt to invalidate my comment with a strawman. If you can't, too bad.

please explain why mathematics is not science...and do note however that science works by these criteria;
a. testable models

b. well defined terminology and units...

c. makes accurate predictions about future data

d. is independently verify-able and falsify-able

e. matches the phenomenon represented accurately

Good. So, why is mathematics a science?
Saying mathematics is science because it "seeks out pattern" is insufficient. Seeking pattern in matter is physics expressed in maths. Seeking interaction in matter is chemistry expressed in maths. Seeking patterns, causes, and effects of health and disease is epidemiology...on and on.

The purpose is simple....to understand reality....and conjectures are derived by the [b]representation of the phenomenon using mathematical symbols,theorems and models....to match the the unknown identity represented.... [/b]

Good.
1. You just described the purpose of science (....to understand reality....) In an empirical sense of course.
2. Mathematics as a language ( ..representation of the phenomenon..).
2. Mathematics as a tool for science (...using mathematical symbols,theorems and models...).

I hope you get the point this time.

really?....again stop beating around the bush and provide the basis for your claims......i have listed the criteria for science above

And how does mathematics fits into your criteria for science? You are the one chasing your tail.

Mathematics is the study of topics such as quantity (numbers), structure, space, and change. There is a range of views among mathematicians and philosophers as to the exact scope and definition of mathematics. - Wikipedia (the same source you quoted).

Mathematics is used throughout the world as an essential tool in many fields, including natural science, engineering, medicine, finance and the social sciences. - wikipedia.

"The universe cannot be read until we have learned the language and become familiar with the characters in which it is written. It is written in mathematical language, and the letters are triangles, circles and other geometrical figures, without which means it is humanly impossible to comprehend a single word. Without these, one is wandering about in a dark labyrinth." - Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) source: Wikipedia

patterns are features that correlate with each other....and may have a repeated outline that can be followed or studied....

Good. Now, define "random pattern" ...we are going somewhere.