Clients Who Screw Our Ass: After Collecting A Demo Website Designed

the issue of potential clients,  copying our work when they tell us to give demo design of what they should expect for their website you intend to design for them is becoming an headache in the design industry,  2years ago a well known guy that does this fashin for this guys that sings approach me for a design though someone hooked me up with him and we talked about his website and all that,

He said he needed a demo for his website and will like to see what i can come up with for him,  and what is my fee,  well told him it will cost N200k,  after the whole proposal and demos later i did the demo presented it to him,  he was like okay this good and infact was so stupid to have even given him the demo despite the fact he paid a peanut for the demo,  after getting the demo, the guy flew uptill today have not set my eyes on him,

Last month same issue,  a guy called after collecting demo,  he aslo ran not calling me either to tell me what is wrong,  when i call he doesn't pick,

again this week too i was called to come with a prototype design now i'm scared to design this one too though i was hooked to this person in the church oooooo, after concluding on a reasonabale price,  money you will get and you will be happy with it,  you guys know what i mean, just scaredi f to go ahead and do it or just tell them if they can just see portfolios they should go for all i care, huh?

I can't see the reason why you will put all your effort to a demo, with the sleepless night,  just to get a good demo out for a client,  at the end of the day they flew with your demo without coming back to you and tell you what's going on,  just to see your demo been completed by someone else, i don tirer ooo have you experienced such. and what do you think we could do if been approach for a demo or something

I've experienced this lately too. Two people and one was from this forum. I uploaded the home page. After that, he was off. Next now, I saw him upload the web with some modifications. All I did was to remind him of the copyright notice which backed our agreement. Made him see I was too serious and would legally hunt him if I saw my that design anywhere. He had no option than to remove the site immediately though he tried proving stubborn.

I think members should get their firms registered and back up every work they do legally so this kinda thrash will stop occurring. I hate it and hate it and hate it. Too bad.

Bro, thanks for sharing jare. This has been on my mind. Thought I was the only suffering it but since others are also experiencing it, we had better chosen a good option to counter such acts.

really haaaaaaaaaaa! of recent the advertising body in nigeria the association recenlty introduce a pitch fee. lets say you invited me for a pitch and i didn't win,  you will be paid N500 to N700k even if i win too,  that fee is to cover up things you use for the picth and some materials you use why trying to pitch for the job and again the copyright  stays with the agency it's self

Can you see why an association is good ? the agency protects their member images and not clients taken them for a fool why can we web master even have that kind of a thing  huh ? instead of allowing all this baboons of clients takes us for a fool it really a pain the ass meeeeeen,  i wish you could feel me,  thats if you have been in this kind of suitation before

The 'demos' are also known as spec work. There's an association that deals with the issue: http://www.no-spec.com/

As a rule I don't do spec work - that's what I have a portfolio for. If they're not convinced that I'm the person for the job from the previous work I've done then I don't see how spec work would change their minds. I've seen too many people burned on this issue in the past to compromise on this - it's just not worth it. Something you could do in the future would be to show them only screenshots of the site (with watermarks if you like) and not the actual link to the web page.

Here here, Yolu.

I *never* do spec work, demo or whatever you want to call it. The only way I would do it is if it is part of a prolonged web dev cycle for which I have been paid for a portion of the service. Why I don't do what I call demos?

1) It is double work
2) Chances of it being ripped off
3) I don't want to put the effort into doing something only for the client to bail on me. Time is money.

As you have said Yolu, check my portfolio page. One of the paragraphs I send potential clients reads thus:

"Here is a link to my portfolio (link here). If you like what you see and/or are convinced that I have the skill set for what you want me to do, get back to me so we can get started on the journey to give you a web presence".

Simple, short and sharp.

Fellow webmasters, you see that's the way it is when you don't understand the nitty-grittys of a buisness before going into it. This is not music, you don't create demos for your clients. You create a mock-copy!

djkunect:

Fellow webmasters, you see that's the way it is when you don't understand the nitty-grittys of a buisness before going into it. This is not music, you don't create demos for your clients. You create a mock-copy!

Laughing, don't just start that !

Abt time someone posted this.however, omnipotens has summed it up. I learnt this the hard way early during my uni days. now i don't hit a keystroke until we're in agreement and paid.I guess that is what happens when clients need the services of a profession that is yet to be respected

WebMonk:

about time someone posted this.however, omnipotens has summed it up. I learnt this the hard way early during my uni days. now i don't hit a keystroke until we're in agreement and paid.I guess that is what happens when clients need the services of a profession that is yet to be respected

Thanks for understanding. No much words here at all. A binding agreement does the magic. You sign and I sign and I get paid based on what is there and I do the job. It's my risk if I don't have anything binding or safeguarding me, my work and profession.

Cheers pals!

from experience, 90% of those who request for demos wont give you the job.

serious clients will ask for what you have done, and judge you with that.

I can remember a man who sent me a mail after discussing through emails for months.

Hello seun,
I have now agreed to pay you the amount you are asking for but please make the website beautiful
and please let me see the website before you load it on the internet.
the website is xxxxx.com. look on the internet for similar website.

When i come to your office next week, we will just change the text. and i will pay you all your money
regards

Very funny email, what makes him feel i will even go as far as registering a domain name for him without a down payment which i have previously discussed with him.
and for your info, till date i cant tell if the man is tall or short cos i haven't even seen him for months now
that's how interesting people can be

They can always send you even more convincing mails or place longer minute calls just to get you do the job. Remember, once you don't have an agreement down and SIGNED by both parties then you are really joking. You might be paying with your time and energy.

now you guys are talking

You shouldn't have shown the website to your clients in that form. You should have sent the homepage in jpg format. That is, preview the page and press 'Print Screen' on your keyboard. Then paste on your workspace (a graphics editor like photoshop). Save and send to him/her.
The worst he will do is to start designing afresh using your own format. Sure you know he cant. He cant even edit it, copy codes, It would be purely read-only. When he pays, you start designing.
Why should my clients make a down payment? They pay in FULL. Well, it depends on where you have reached in the buisness.
Note, the more professional word used for what you meant was MOCK COPY not DEMOS.

Clients should indeed make down payments because just as you don't trust them, they don't trust you. By making a down payment, it not only allows them to keep part of the proceeds which they can plow into their own businesses and hopefully yield profits off of it that they can use to, among others, hire others, it also ensures that they get their money's worth. Not to mention, given the country we live in, it is possible that someone gets 100% payment and bails.

Down payment's make perfect sense. Of course the next debate is and should be, how much is "fair" as a down payment. Tis best to lose a fraction than it is to lose it all.

Honestly, it's never even occurred to me to do a usable demo, not for the reasons stated above, but because it's too stressful to actually do something, and then be told to change it. I always throw up a low resolution mock up in Photoshop, and show you the image. if we're good, it becomes code. Wanna steal the design? Good luck there.

Hi Guys. yes clients are dubious fools most times but this is Naija. even the big firms ask for a demo, not just a picture-based demo, one that actually has some functionality.

Infact there is a brokerage firm in Ikoyi (Awolowo Rd) that has done this. they get a demo, they are not comfortable with the price so they call in someone to modify and change the colors and add their own logo.

But then, i believe it is our collective fault that this happens. the designer who ripped someone else's demo (and is probably on Nairaland) and the designer who never thought it necessary to include a Non-Disclosure and Intellectual Rights Statement attached to the demo.

A lawyer friend tells me that it is so easy to do something illegal when doing business but we do not know it as Web Designers. Well here is what i do now.

1: Get a Non-disclosure statement at the very beginning of your proposal or demo website. this agreement does not need to be signed. the client only needs to go beyond the agreement page to see the demo and he is bound by the agreement. If he chooses to breach your agreement by giving it to another designer. simple, yo have just made easy cash without picking up a crayon. there are hundreds of lawyers who will take up your case and as long as it is a company, once they are summoned, it is an open 'n shut case, they will pay heavily or settle out of court.

2: Use a Business case. stress the need for real, measurable business value, rather than graphics and whooshing flash animation (though it is necessary effizzzy in Naija)

My Biafran Krona

Why do people always want to learn the hard way?
Normal procedure for dealing with clients:
1. Compile a demo reel. This would serve the came purpose as the demo. The client sees your past jobs and then agrees to work with you. NEVER AGREE TO DO A DEMO USING THE CLIENT'S LOGOS
2. Negotiate on cost and pass on your invoice, which should be signed in duplicates. There should be an agreement as per terms of payment, which usually is: 70-80% upfront and balance upon completion.
3. Collect your upfront and start work.
4. Carry your client along when working so as to minimize back and forth corrections.
5. Deliver final job and collect balance.
Everybody is happy
The worst case scenario is your balance would be delayed.

Many a time it is easier said than done. Depending on the strength of the client, I could sometimes do a spec work. Yes you heard me, spec work. But this spec work will never get pass a PowerPoint Presentation with a link to my Portfolio page.

A live demo must be paid for if a client insist on getting one, there is no way round it.

Fellow webmasters, you need to understand that in web business you don't rush for jobs. This is not a general market, you don't create demos for your clients but simply a paper mock-up!

In my case I simply tell the client to visit a particular online web design company website where templates are for sales and pick his choice prototype, then send me the complete URL, that's after full payment has been transfered to my account. Or if a client saw a site he desire to have, he sends the screen shot or complete URL.

We then develop the same template 100% and launch the client's website within 3 days.

www.bestsoftnigeria.com

Actually I dont do demos

My Portfolio always speaks for me

cos if you dont like who I am you will find it hard to like what Iill become.

so I try to make every new site my best.

It has always work.

@ poster,

I really understand what you are going through and will like to highlight were you made a wrong move. Here in the UK what we were trained to do is to show the clients the demo on our personal system or make a low fidelity prototype. What i mean by this is either you display how the site will look like making use of your own system or you create it on storyboards or paper showing how the interface will look like.

Making use of this steps will prevent the client from having a direct contact to your design and codes.

Cheers

@Atauyo

Fellow webmasters, you need to understand that in web business you don't rush for jobs

I don't know how to take it, but i think we should make every project an opportunity to educate and grow awareness of clients. 90% only think they have a clue and truly understand what should be done in the interest of[b] value, purpose and brand[/b]. I go rush the job as long as it is profitable, otherwise you give the quacks the chance to do the job in a non-professional manner and even give the clients a much negative impression of what we do.


Why else would a client wish to see a demo rather than go through your portfolio.
1: if you must do a demo (make it simply graphic -alt print screen)
2: list out beneficial features that your idea will bring in contrast with costs to client
3: let them know that doing a demo is not professional except they are prepared to get a functional demo for a price
4: also gauge the value of your work properly. aggressive pricing is also evidence of professionalism. if your work is worth it, let it show in the price.
5: always make sure you let the client understand that your demo is strictly confidential (indicate as so too)


templates are also a good start for demos, at least they look snazzy and they give the client an immediate waow! of what is possible, but do not let them ask you to modify it before committing financially to the project

well you guys are really making sense, if i didn't use the prefessional word mock-up, that doesn't mean i don't know what it means, anyway you see why i throw up this question is because all clients are not same thing, i could remember two site i created last month they just saw portfolio and the second day, they wrote a cheque and we started all info followed.

If your fee is getting up 200, 000 for the design and everything, don't be suprise that you will be ask to create a mock -up for them to see, all prototype i design are on jpegs, but for you not to loose the client, you can't stand the test of arguement, since they are paying for it, okay the more reason i had to even put up this issue is because of the demo i created and i'm been asked to send it to the person in charge via email, though i was there and the P.A saw it and told me her boss is in the meeting i should send it to her email for her to see it,

Now, if they want any changes just like what the P.A said, i will just tell them that will be done if we've come to a proper agreement, and all what they want will be sorted out and they will be carried along.

i can't just start editing an ordinary demo, if they accept fine if them no accept no lele, some clients can be so fraustrating, at times especially if the money involve is huge, or what do you think?

so peeps who pays close to 50-70 are not even hard as this people.

question: does it make a difference if you show me a demo or a jpg?

Look at it this way, I could call you to show me something and you come into my office and there are 2 people in the room - one is me and the other is a web dev guy/gal in disguise. As I am talking to you, the other is memorizing every detail. Next thing you know, I am dumping you and my developer is reproducing. You get where I am going with this?

Personally, the only way I am doing a demo/mock up or whatever from you is if you are paying me major dough. Otherwise, all you will get from me, highest, na power point presentation laying out, in english, the direction I will be taking your site to

There is a key word missing: PACKAGING!!! If you are perceived as an individual then you will be treated as one. The truth is once as an individual, you want to do business with a corporate body, be sure that they would try to take advantage of you. But if you are perceived as a corporate entity then the case is different. I am into production and some jobs we do run into millions. Because it is a huge amount does not mean we should do a demo shoot. They liked the demo reel that's why we were contacted in the first place.
PACKAGING! PACKAGING!! PACKAGING!!!

@yawa ti de, nice one

all the guy needs is to show is a low fidelity prototype like powerpoints demo or storyboards, and not going too far to show how the interface will look like at the initial stage. Except he has been paid a percentage of the total cost or moblisation fee.

Okay heheheh soji you have pushed me to hit the nail on the head  well is a church thing and i was hooked to them since i go to same church with MR. A who introduce me to the boss but he works with the production house at the HQ this is how it all happened.

Let says you are Mr A, i did a site for your production Company and when you asked who design the site,  they told you i was the one  MR. S(smartsoft) now you and i which is MR A and S attends a well known church  and MR A is involve in the Church Production House too in nigeria  Now you production Boss  asked you " Mr. A do you know we need a website designer/ Motion Graphic designer to work on a project? please if you know someone that does that, kindly let me know " then MR A called  on phone Mr. D, headquater needs a website designer/motion graphic designer to work on a project for them just come and show them want you've done before okay i will be expecting you in the church tomorrow  he puts a call accross to the boss and the boss said i should meet her next morning.

Okay Mr. S(smartsoft) was at the church, the boss was there, P.A and  including Mr A was there too they were all there  i showed them portfolios and immediately MR. A said don't worry this and that,  he will design a mock-up for us

Boss : "Okay Mr S do a mock-up for us lets see,  and bring it on tuesday [b]"2nd Dec 2008"

Mr. S was there at the church and put a call to the P.A

P.A : Mr. S wait a min, i will be with you shortly.

P.A :  Mr,  S sorry for keeping you waiting,  can i have look at the demo?

Mr. S : brought out my Laptop and show her

P.A :   hummm but you will have to change this change that  and my boss is in the meeting wait let me see if she can make it out.

P.A : she went away

P.A : came back 5mins after "she can't make it out  but send it to her email : blahblah@yahoo.com and she will reply you when she sees it.

Mr. S : Okay i will do just that

P.A : Thank you Mr. S

Mr. s : Your most welcome[/b]

I zoomed oofffffffff

So forget the individual thing because when they finally set is a coporate thing not individual.

@ smartsoft, the issue you brought up is quite interesting. I must confess, I have experienced this ripoff about twice. On the first occasion, I supplied the demo through a link on my website. I got to find out recently that whoever finally developed the site had copied some of my graphics and ideas and implemented it. They even went as far as copying some graphics on my other sites since they had access to my site and portfolio.

The second occurrence was with this big IT firm selling support services to gsm networks. We went in for a presentation, got a brief, and was told to supply our proposal with a demo. We thought we had a fair chance so we decided to supply the proposal and the demo. After a few weeks of non response and unreturned emails, we checked up on their url (they had previously registered) only to find out our graphics and ideas had been copied, including an an advanced form of their logo we did for them.

I guess we all learn every day. I normally don't supply demos, but when you are faced with one of the big shots requesting a demo, what do you do?

Someone once gave me an analogy that if you gave your car to a mechanic, would you tell him to fix your car first and see if you like his work before you decide to use him? I think as web designers, we should be able to give our profession some dignity and not just take anything that is thrown at our faces. - something i'm still trying to come to terms with.

wow ! finally someone understood more better what i'm facing  this is a big shot and the deal aren't a joke  now if you don't provide a demo either, you might be taken for a joke or something so if you read my story above danteweb you will understand

smart,

na tori u dey yarn "Sorry but we don't do demos. Feel free to browse our portfolio. It speaks for itself. We have Bleep clients and none of them ever got a demo. They haven't been disappointed and neither will you". If they ask why, you say, "if we do a demo, we might as well do the whole thing".

Without payment, if they insist, you walk away. Simple

Thank God now you have convinced me now

smart, i forgot to add and I don't mean to brag but, I dont know how powerful this person of yours is. I have done 2 sites for a state commissioner and he never once saw a demo. I would imagine a commissioner is as powerful as it gets