OLAADEGBU:


The third heaven is the dwelling place of God (2 Corinthians 12:2).



Enoch: Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5

Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11

Will you now believe it since God said it?

The following can be deduced from your post.

That elijah and enoch went to the heaven where God is , or where God dwells.

U based ur assumptions on the following scriptures .the scriptures will be quoted and my views expressed.

2 Corinthians 12:2:

King James Bible
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Now this scripture does not say if or that the third heaven is where God resides. That a man is caught up does not mean he is going to the presence or place where God resides.

The word heaven as used in the bible can mean different things and location, to know which one is which, one has to look at the context in which the word heaven is mentioned.
If you are not ok with my explanation , u can make it know with examples and ill reply accordingly.

Genesis 5:24:

King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.

NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God took him, how God took him and it what form God took him .

Hear what paul said about enoch in hebrew 11:5

:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 .
The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received
the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died.
2. Enoch did not receive the promise ( meaning enoch did not ascend to heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!

So my own explanation on the scriptures u pasted and the scriptures I added shows what might have happened to enoch and that enoch did not go to heaven .

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to the third heavens (Gods dwelling place)


At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.
2Ch 21:12-15;

Eventually a written message came to him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hosh′a·phat or in the ways of King A′sa of Judah. 13 But you walk in the way of the kings of Israel and cause Judah and the inhabitants of
Jerusalem to commit spiritual prostitution like the prostitution of the house of A′hab, and you even killed your own brothers, the household of your father, who were better than you. 14 Therefore, Jehovah is dealing a great blow to your people, to your sons, to your wives, and to all your possessions. 15 And you will suffer with many sicknesses, including a disease of your
intestines, until your intestines come out
because of the disease, day after day.’”



Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (t he dwelling place of God)

Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

American King James Version
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said of David that
he “did not ascend to the heavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand,


In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.

1Co 15:20;

King James Bible
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.

Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.— 1Co 15:42-50.

So we see, from the bible , the word of God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend to the dwelling place God.

TheIndustrialist:



let the bible speak for itself.

Did the Bible say that the sons of men were 450 feet tall?

ooman:


all those conditions are totally subjective and subject to change.

Those were the measuring stick used in determining whether the books were God breathed or not.

dolphinheart:




The following can be deduced from your post.

That elijah and enoch went to the heaven where God is , or where God dwells.

U based ur assumptions on the following scriptures .the scriptures will be quoted and my views expressed.

2 Corinthians 12:2:

King James Bible
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Now this scripture does not say if or that the third heaven is where God resides. That a man is caught up does not mean he is going to the presence or place where God resides.

The word heaven as used in the bible can mean different things and location, to know which one is which, one has to look at the context in which the word heaven is mentioned.
If you are not ok with my explanation , u can make it know with examples and ill reply accordingly.

Genesis 5:24:

King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.

NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God took him, how God took him and it what form God took him .

Hear what paul said about enoch in hebrew 11:5

:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 .
The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received
the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died.
2. Enoch did not receive the promise ( meaning enoch did not ascend to heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!

So my own explanation on the scriptures u pasted and the scriptures I added shows what might have happened to enoch and that enoch did not go to heaven .

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to the third heavens (Gods dwelling place)


At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.
2Ch 21:12-15;

Eventually a written message came to him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hosh′a·phat or in the ways of King A′sa of Judah. 13 But you walk in the way of the kings of Israel and cause Judah and the inhabitants of
Jerusalem to commit spiritual prostitution like the prostitution of the house of A′hab, and you even killed your own brothers, the household of your father, who were better than you. 14 Therefore, Jehovah is dealing a great blow to your people, to your sons, to your wives, and to all your possessions. 15 And you will suffer with many sicknesses, including a disease of your
intestines, until your intestines come out
because of the disease, day after day.’”



Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (t he dwelling place of God)

Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

American King James Version
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said of David that
he “did not ascend to the heavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand,


In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.

1Co 15:20;

King James Bible
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.

Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.— 1Co 15:42-50.

So we see, from the bible , the word of God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend to the dwelling place God.

The fact that Elijah appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration invalidates your submission.

OLAADEGBU:


The fact that Elijah appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration invalidates your submission.

Ill like to explain the tranfiguration with you, but first pls , discuss what i said and explain ur understanding of the verses I quoted.
Tell us ur understand of the verse I quoted first. Then we can move to transfiguration .

dolphinheart:


Ill like to explain the tranfiguration with you, but first pls , discuss what i said and explain ur understanding of the verses I quoted.
Tell us ur understand of the verse I quoted first. Then we can move to transfiguration .

From where did you think Elijah appeared from, hell or heaven?

OLAADEGBU:


Did the Bible say that the sons of men were 450 feet tall?

Does the bible also say that the sons of men could not ,were not or can not be 450 feet tall ? Show us that passage please.

Heard of nephilims ? Human-Angel creatures ?

OLAADEGBU:


From where did you think Elijah appeared from, hell or heaven?

Sir, discuss what I posted first, explain ur view of the scriptures I posted, just like I explained my view on the scriptures u posted. After then add any remark or question

OLAADEGBU:


Those were the measuring stick used in determining whether the books were God breathed or not.

Yet those conditions are totally dependent on the bias of the determiner.

TheIndustrialist:


Does the bible also say that the sons of men could not ,were not or can not be 450 feet tall ? Show us that passage please.

Heard of nephilims ? Human-Angel creatures ?

You must equally agree with Muslims that believe Adam was 90 feet tall, no?

ooman:


Yet those conditions are totally dependent on the bias of the determiner.

What bias?

OLAADEGBU:


What bias?

never mind

OLAADEGBU:


You must equally agree with Muslims that believe Adam was 90 feet tall, no?

You don't even know where to stand or look anymore.

Do you KNOW if Adam was not 90ft tall or you BELIEVE Adam was not 90ft tall ?

TheIndustrialist:


You don't even know where to stand or look anymore.

Do you KNOW if Adam was not 90ft tall or you BELIEVE Adam was not 90ft tall ?

If you believe spurious books like the book of Enoch which claims men where about 450 feet tall, what stops you from believing Islamic books that probably got their ideas from books like these that Adam stood 90 feet tall? The Bible doesn't make spurious claims.

OLAADEGBU:


If you believe spurious books like the book of Enoch which claims men where about 450 feet tall, what stops you from believing Islamic books that probably got their ideas from books like these that Adam stood 90 feet tall? The Bible doesn't make spurious claims.

OLAADEGBU:


If you believe spurious books like the book of Enoch which claims men where about 450 feet tall, what stops you from believing Islamic books that probably got their ideas from books like these that Adam stood 90 feet tall? The Bible doesn't make spurious claims.

I seriously can't continue this discussion with you. You can't even help yourself think.

This is one of the things religion coupled with brainwashing can do.

Happy Saturnalia ahead.

TheIndustrialist:


I seriously can't continue this discussion with you. You can't even help yourself think.

This is one of the things religion coupled with brainwashing can do.

Happy Saturnalia ahead.

Good luck with your mythological books.

@olaadegbu, Still waiting for reply on what I said and scriptures I quoted on elijah and enoch .

dolphinheart:




The following can be deduced from your post.

That elijah and enoch went to the heaven where God is , or where God dwells.

U based ur assumptions on the following scriptures .the scriptures will be quoted and my views expressed.

2 Corinthians 12:2:

King James Bible
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Now this scripture does not say if or that the third heaven is where God resides. That a man is caught up does not mean he is going to the presence or place where God resides.

The word heaven as used in the bible can mean different things and location, to know which one is which, one has to look at the context in which the word heaven is mentioned.
If you are not ok with my explanation , u can make it know with examples and ill reply accordingly.

Genesis 5:24:

King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.

NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God took him, how God took him and it what form God took him .

Hear what paul said about enoch in hebrew 11:5

:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 .
The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received
the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died.
2. Enoch did not receive the promise ( meaning enoch did not ascend to heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!

So my own explanation on the scriptures u pasted and the scriptures I added shows what might have happened to enoch and that enoch did not go to heaven .

All died by faith except for Enoch who did not see death.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5)

The bolded above proves that Enoch was raptured to heaven, and experience that true Christians will partake of at the first phase of the second coming of the Lord.

dolphinheart:


2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to the third heavens (Gods dwelling place)


At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.
2Ch 21:12-15;

Eventually a written message came to him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hosh′a·phat or in the ways of King A′sa of Judah. 13 But you walk in the way of the kings of Israel and cause Judah and the inhabitants of
Jerusalem to commit spiritual prostitution like the prostitution of the house of A′hab, and you even killed your own brothers, the household of your father, who were better than you. 14 Therefore, Jehovah is dealing a great blow to your people, to your sons, to your wives, and to all your possessions. 15 And you will suffer with many sicknesses, including a disease of your
intestines, until your intestines come out
because of the disease, day after day.’”



Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (t he dwelling place of God)

Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

American King James Version
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said of David that
he “did not ascend to the heavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand,


In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.

1Co 15:20;

King James Bible
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.

Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.— 1Co 15:42-50.

So we see, from the bible , the word of God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend to the dwelling place God.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"(1 Thess. 4:16-17).

If the rapture can happen with the living saints what stops it from happening to Enoch and Elijah? When our Lord Jesus Christ returns, both the dead and living believers will be translated into His presence, their bodies being supernaturally changed into immortal bodies (1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21). Read the link below for more on this.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html

OLAADEGBU:


All died by faith except for Enoch who did not see death.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5)

The bolded proves that Enoch was raptured to heaven, and experience that true Christians will partake of at the first phase of the second coming of the Lord.



"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"(1 Thess. 4:16-17).

If the rapture can happen with the living saints what stops it from happening to Enoch and Elijah? When our Lord Jesus Christ returns, both the dead and living believers will be translated into His presence, their bodies being supernaturally changed into immortal bodies (1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21). Read the link below for more on this.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Enoch-Elijah.html

Sir, I can now see why some say they dnt Iike or want to discuss with you, as you dnt discuss with people but tend to dish out ur own opinion without explaining/looking into on what the other person says. When u post ur beliefs and back them up with with bible statements, others look at what you said in relation to the scriptures you quoted and come back to explain to you their understanding of what you said, the scriptures u quoted, and also add other scriptures to prove to you that ur understanding is wrong.
That is exactly what I did, I looked up the scriptures u posted, explained where u where wrong , then added other scriptures to buttress my point . But u dnt do that , you wave/ dismiss / put aside/refuse to explain ur understanding of scriptural evidence shown to you that you dnt like or can't explain and hold on tightly to verses that you think explain ur point.
This method does not encourage discussion.

I gave you numerous evidences and scriptures and u did not explain any.

Ill try one more time to explain to you from the scriptures , citing the scriptures u quoted and more from me to explain to you that enoch and elijah did not go to heaven .
Pls if you want to argue my points, pls explain first of all ur understanding of the scriptures i sited .


Enoch did not go to heaven.
To start my explanation , let's first look at the definition of this two words that might have caused some confusion. The definition of the words helps in the understand of what the scripture is saying.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.
(death is being described as an act, a process. Unless otherwise assisted, that process is always very unpleasant, mostly painful)

Die/ died: to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.

(die/died is the end result of the process of death)

So now what did not happen to enoch.

Genesis 5:24:
King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.
NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God
took him, how God took him and it what
form God took him .so I wonder why you use that verse to say God took him to heaven .

Why was he taken away?.

The book of genesis indicate that the corruption introduced by Satan in the garden of Eden quickly led to the spread of wickedness among Adam’s descendants. In such a world, Enoch was a prophet of Jehovah whose powerful inspired words resonate even today. ( Jude 14, 15) we can be sure that even in Enoch’s day, there were many “ungodly sinners” who heard Enoch’s prophecy with annoyance. How loving that God took the prophet out of their reach

What happened to him?
heb 11:5
:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Like in the book of genesis, Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might
have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 . The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died. Enoch was not excluded in these verse .
2. Enoch did not receive the promise
( meaning enoch did not ascend to
heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!, enoch was not ressurected .
Enoch did not go to heaven, not before jesus ascention anyway.
Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. ( John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch’s being
“transferred so as not to see death” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life (died)while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or “see death,” at the hands of his enemies.(he did not go through the act or process of death )

Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man.” Jesus was the “forerunner”
of all who ascend to heaven.— John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20..


Enoch lived 365 years—not nearly as long as most of his contemporaries. But the important thing for lovers of Jehovah is that they serve him faithfully to the end of their days. We know that Enoch did that because “before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.” The Scriptures do not disclose how Jehovah communicated this to Enoch. Nevertheless, before Enoch died, he was given assurance of God’s approval, and we can be certain that Jehovah will remember him in the resurrection.(a future event/promise



Did elijah go to the dwelling place of God.?

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to Gods dwelling place.
At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is
described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die(undergo any transition ) at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.

2Ch 21:12-15;
Eventually a written message came to
him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying.............

Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (the dwelling place of God)
Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said ofDavid that
he “did not ascend to theheavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand.

In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus.(why would jesus need to come and die for our sins when we already could go to heaven and have evalasting life?)
Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh
14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.
1Co 15:20;

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch,elijah And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.
Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, ChristJesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—
1Co 15:42-50..


(1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21).

These scriptures helps us to understand the ressurection process of those who will rule with jesus in heaven .here ,unlike in enoch's case, where the ressurected ones are going is mentioned.
Even if these could also happen to enoch and elijah,it did not happen at their death cus because paul said such hope for them whigh they had faith in was far off(in the future), as at enoch's and Elijah's death, the rsmsom sacrifice has not yet Been presented to God in heaven to enable man go to heaven.



So we see, from the bible , the word of
God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend
to the dwelling place God.

dolphinheart:



So we see, from the bible , the word of
God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend
to the dwelling place God.

So where are they?

OLAADEGBU:


Did the Bible say that the sons of men were 450 feet tall?

Can we say for sure that we use the say measurement as was used in the days of Enoch? Is 450 feet in the days of Enoch same as 450 feet now? Remember we are talking about what happened several thousands of years ago. My thoughts anyways.

frosbel:



Mr Kumuiyi's clone, where do you think Jude copied the following bible verse from ;

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." - Jude 1:14-15


Clue : Check out the book of Enoch Chapter 2.

It is wrong to assume that because Jude quoted a prophesy said by Enoch, then it must have been written in a book. Jude Quoted a prophesy said by enoch, that does not mean the prophesy was in book. They are statements and utterances made by Enoch which were passed down and known to the Jews.

Olaadegbu where's the book of Tobias.

dolphinheart:


Sir, I can now see why some say they dnt Iike or want to discuss with you, as you dnt discuss with people but tend to dish out ur own opinion without explaining/looking into on what the other person says. When u post ur beliefs and back them up with with bible statements, others look at what you said in relation to the scriptures you quoted and come back to explain to you their understanding of what you said, the scriptures u quoted, and also add other scriptures to prove to you that ur understanding is wrong.
That is exactly what I did, I looked up the scriptures u posted, explained where u where wrong , then added other scriptures to buttress my point . But u dnt do that , you wave/ dismiss / put aside/refuse to explain ur understanding of scriptural evidence shown to you that you dnt like or can't explain and hold on tightly to verses that you think explain ur point.
This method does not encourage discussion.

I gave you numerous evidences and scriptures and u did not explain any.

Ill try one more time to explain to you from the scriptures , citing the scriptures u quoted and more from me to explain to you that enoch and elijah did not go to heaven .
Pls if you want to argue my points, pls explain first of all ur understanding of the scriptures i sited .


Enoch did not go to heaven.
To start my explanation , let's first look at the definition of this two words that might have caused some confusion. The definition of the words helps in the understand of what the scripture is saying.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.
(death is being described as an act, a process. Unless otherwise assisted, that process is always very unpleasant, mostly painful)

Die/ died: to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.

(die/died is the end result of the process of death)

So now what did not happen to enoch.

Genesis 5:24:
King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.
NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God
took him, how God took him and it what
form God took him .so I wonder why you use that verse to say God took him to heaven .

Why was he taken away?.

The book of genesis indicate that the corruption introduced by Satan in the garden of Eden quickly led to the spread of wickedness among Adam’s descendants. In such a world, Enoch was a prophet of Jehovah whose powerful inspired words resonate even today. ( Jude 14, 15) we can be sure that even in Enoch’s day, there were many “ungodly sinners” who heard Enoch’s prophecy with annoyance. How loving that God took the prophet out of their reach

What happened to him?
heb 11:5
:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Like in the book of genesis, Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might
have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 . The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died. Enoch was not excluded in these verse .
2. Enoch did not receive the promise
( meaning enoch did not ascend to
heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!, enoch was not ressurected .
Enoch did not go to heaven, not before jesus ascention anyway.
Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. ( John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch’s being
“transferred so as not to see death” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life (died)while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or “see death,” at the hands of his enemies.(he did not go through the act or process of death )

Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man.” Jesus was the “forerunner”
of all who ascend to heaven.— John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20..


Enoch lived 365 years—not nearly as long as most of his contemporaries. But the important thing for lovers of Jehovah is that they serve him faithfully to the end of their days. We know that Enoch did that because “before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.” The Scriptures do not disclose how Jehovah communicated this to Enoch. Nevertheless, before Enoch died, he was given assurance of God’s approval, and we can be certain that Jehovah will remember him in the resurrection.(a future event/promise



Did elijah go to the dwelling place of God.?

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to Gods dwelling place.
At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is
described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die(undergo any transition ) at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.

2Ch 21:12-15;
Eventually a written message came to
him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying.............

Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (the dwelling place of God)
Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said ofDavid that
he “did not ascend to theheavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand.

In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus.(why would jesus need to come and die for our sins when we already could go to heaven and have evalasting life?)
Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh
14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.
1Co 15:20;

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch,elijah And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.
Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, ChristJesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—
1Co 15:42-50..


(1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21).

These scriptures helps us to understand the ressurection process of those who will rule with jesus in heaven .here ,unlike in enoch's case, where the ressurected ones are going is mentioned.
Even if these could also happen to enoch and elijah,it did not happen at their death cus because paul said such hope for them whigh they had faith in was far off(in the future), as at enoch's and Elijah's death, the rsmsom sacrifice has not yet Been presented to God in heaven to enable man go to heaven.



So we see, from the bible , the word of
God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend
to the dwelling place God.

As you might have noticed I'm not a man of many words. I am not here to so much give my own opinion except to be illuminated by the Word of God.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

This was a unique event in history, and was altogether miraculous. Enoch, who had served as God’s prophet in a time of deep apostasy, had likewise been taken into heaven just as Enoch was taken to the "third heaven," where God’s throne is located without dying, as I had said earlier. It has been assumed that Elijah and Enoch have both been supernaturally preserved alive in heaven ever since that time in their natural bodies.

When the Lord Jesus returns at the rapture, both dead and living believers will be translated into His presence, their bodies being supernaturally changed into immortal bodies. If Elijah and Enoch are presently in natural bodies, it is possible that they will also return at this time to serve as His "two witnesses" on the earth during the 1260 days of great plagues on the earth that will quickly follow Jesus’ return. They will continue to be preserved alive to finish their unfinished testimony to both Israel and the Gentile world during that period. Finally, they will be slain and then they also will be raptured into heaven with immortalized bodies.

honourhim:


Can we say for sure that we use the say measurement as was used in the days of Enoch? Is 450 feet in the days of Enoch same as 450 feet now? Remember we are talking about what happened several thousands of years ago. My thoughts anyways.

If we are to use the same measurement used in the days of Enoch wouldn't a feet be more than what it is today? Then we would be talking of about nothing less than a thousand feet. Why can't folks use their common sense when it comes to historical facts in the Bible?

joseph1832:


Olaadegbu where's the book of Tobias.

Is there anything like the book of Tobias?

OLAADEGBU:


Is their anything like the book of Tobias?

Yep there is. Been trying to upload a picture of it to no avail.

joseph1832:


Yep there is. Been trying to upload a picture of it to no avail.

You couldn't upload it because it does not exist.

OLAADEGBU:


You couldn't upload it because it does not exist.

Is that right? Answer your pm and I'll attach it for you to see and believe.

OLAADEGBU:


As you might have noticed I'm not a man of many words. I am not here to so much give my own opinion except to be illuminated by the Word of God.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

This was a unique event in history, and was altogether miraculous. Enoch, who had served as God’s prophet in a time of deep apostasy, had likewise been taken into heaven just as Enoch was taken to the "third heaven," where God’s throne is located without dying, as I had said earlier. It has been assumed that Elijah and Enoch have both been supernaturally preserved alive in heaven ever since that time in their natural bodies.

When the Lord Jesus returns at the rapture, both dead and living believers will be translated into His presence, their bodies being supernaturally changed into immortal bodies. If Elijah and Enoch are presently in natural bodies, it is possible that they will also return at this time to serve as His "two witnesses" on the earth during the 1260 days of great plagues on the earth that will quickly follow Jesus’ return. They will continue to be preserved alive to finish their unfinished testimony to both Israel and the Gentile world during that period. Finally, they will be slain and then they also will be raptured into heaven with immortalized bodies.

You are delibrately doing the same thing again, refusing to discuss points giving while trying to express ur view that you can't defend with the scriptures.

I've shown you several points you refuse to acknowledge , disprove or comment on such as:

I've shown you that that no where in the bible was enoch said to go to any third heaven , talk less of the presence of God.

I've shown you that paul said enoch died. All those that had faith died.

I've shown you that enoch did not receive the promise, but only saw it in a distant future and had faith in its fulfillment

I've shown you that elijah did not go to the dwelling place of God. Anytime heaven is used in the scriptures, it does not always mean the dwelling place of God.

I've show you elijah's action on earth several years after the chariot incident.

I've show you that in mentioning the third heaven, paul does not ascribe it to Gods dwelling place, why then do u do otherwise

I've shown you where jesus said no one has ascended to heaven (the dwelling place of god) except jesus that descended. Are u saying that jesus is lying?

I've shown you that jesus was the first resurrected person to ascend to heaven before others follow.

I've shown you man cannot ascend to heaven except through jesus ransom sacrifice.

I've asked you to explain the scriptures I quoted just as I explained yours.

I've asked you if jesus is lying when he said no one has ascended into heaven ?

I've asked you that if faithful servants of God can attain imortality apart from jesus sacrifice, why then did jesus have to die, would it not have been better to use that method for us. ?

Now I ask you, with your knowledge of the scriptures on what paul said about the bodies that one can use to enter heaven, can our natural bodies enter heaven?

Now u say they are going to come back and go to heaven several to heaven several times, in natural bodies(?) can u prove it from the scriptures?

Even angel gabriel did not travel that much, and he had serious and recorded messages to bring to earth .

dolphinheart:


You are delibrately doing the same thing again, refusing to discuss points giving while trying to express ur view that you can't defend with the scriptures.

I've shown you several points you refuse to acknowledge , disprove or comment on such as:

I've shown you that that no where in the bible was enoch said to go to any third heaven , talk less of the presence of God.

I've shown you that paul said enoch died. All those that had faith died.

I've shown you that enoch did not receive the promise, but only saw it in a distant future and had faith in its fulfillment

I've shown you that elijah did not go to the dwelling place of God. Anytime heaven is used in the scriptures, it does not always mean the dwelling place of God.

I've show you elijah's action on earth several years after the chariot incident.

I've show you that in mentioning the third heaven, paul does not ascribe it to Gods dwelling place, why then do u do otherwise

I've shown you where jesus said no one has ascended to heaven (the dwelling place of god) except jesus that descended. Are u saying that jesus is lying?

I've shown you that jesus was the first resurrected person to ascend to heaven before others follow.

I've shown you man cannot ascend to heaven except through jesus ransom sacrifice.

I've asked you to explain the scriptures I quoted just as I explained yours.

I've asked you if jesus is lying when he said no one has ascended into heaven ?

I've asked you that if faithful servants of God can attain imortality apart from jesus sacrifice, why then did jesus have to die, would it not have been better to use that method for us. ?

Now I ask you, with your knowledge of the scriptures on what paul said about the bodies that one can use to enter heaven, can our natural bodies enter heaven?

Now u say they are going to come back and go to heaven several to heaven several times, in natural bodies(?) can u prove it from the scriptures?

Even angel gabriel did not travel that much, and he had serious and recorded messages to bring to earth .

Questions and Answers.

Alive Into Heaven

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11)

This remarkable event—the translation of Elijah alive into heaven, without dying—was altogether miraculous, but it really happened! Among other things, it assures us that heaven is a real place in this created universe, for Elijah is still there in his physical body, still alive, to this very day.

The prophet Enoch, who had also served God in a time of deep apostasy, had likewise been taken into heaven without dying (that is, into the “third heaven,” beyond the starry heaven, where God’s throne is), as recorded in Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5. Enoch’s prophecies, addressed to the entire world of mankind, were given at approximately the midpoint of the period from Adam to Abraham, whereas those of Elijah, addressed only to Israel, were given at essentially the midpoint of the time from Abraham to Christ. Both were caught up alive into heaven before their ministries were finished. It is possible that they will return again to Earth as God’s “two witnesses” who will prophesy to both Jews and Gentiles in the last days (note Malachi 4:5,6; Revelation 11:3–12), then finally to be slain and resurrected.

In any case, there will also be one entire generation of believers who will—like Enoch and Elijah—be caught up alive into heaven. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17).

This could very well be our generation! And, “when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2). HMM

For more . . . .