I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

hmmm

Lols shaking ur faith ke.. Shake dem faith too, tell her eve didnt eat the apple, dat d serpent tempted adam first and caught him

It baffles me that people with little or no understanding will take a part of the Bible as correct and debunk others as wrong .

Talk to PaulGrundy
Nobody has ever seen God the Father, the Israelites saw the Son. When you start claiming that inspired scriptures such as Exodus 24:11 is a lie, you should tell us what is not,and what criteria you used to separate lies from the truth

vooks:
Talk to PaulGrundy
Nobody has ever seen God the Father, the Israelites saw the Son. When you start claiming that inspired scriptures such as Exodus 24:11 is a lie, you should tell us what is not,and what criteria you used to separate lies from the truth

BUT HOW DO U EXPLAIN THAT IT IS GOD THE SON, I DON'T UNDASTAND and who's PaulGRUNDY?

dkronicle:
Lols shaking ur faith ke.. Shake dem faith too, tell her eve didnt eat the apple, dat d serpent tempted adam first and caught him

how wil u reconcile this with what the Bible teaches?

deleib:
I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

Both are correct. The scriptures are true, whether old or new.

But one thing you have to understand about spiritual expressions, especially in hebrew language is that it has more synonyms than english. So it can have different levels of the same word, which creates ambiguities when translated into english.

There are different levels of seeing, just as there are different levels of knowing.

If you ask three people, Do you know Janet? One will say yes I know her, she lives across our street. Another will say yes I know her, she's my very good friend. And another will say, Yes I know her, she's my wife.

Now, they all know Janet, but on three levels. One is casual knowing, one is close knowing and one is consummate knowing.

English language does not recognise these different levels, so it translates them as same thing, creating ambiquities with those who don't understand spiritual expressions.

Seeing God is in levels too, just as knowing Him.

There is a difference between seeing God in a vision, and seeing Him with your n.aked eye. Also, seeing the similitude of God (His image and outline) is different from seeing His face and His form. And this is also different from seeing Him as He truly is -at heart and in character (as n.aked)

Scripture is full and replete with all these different types of "seeing" God,which are not the same level spiritually. But english doesn't acknowledge this different levels and translates them as same, creating ambiquities.

This is why we all need more than just literacy to understand the bible and accurately DIVIDE the word of truth.

These are some scriptures

Numbers 12v6-8 -And He said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a VISION, and I will speak unto Him in a dream.

My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the SIMILITUDE of the Lord shall he behold.

Daniel 7v9 -I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment (FORM) was white as snow, and the hair of His head (FACE) like the pure wool.

There are more scriptures, but can't look them up now.

I believe in the context of which Jesus has SEEN the Father; no man has seen God in that way. We are going to spend the rest of eternity seeing and knowing Him that way.

Hope this helps a little.

ayoku777:


Both are correct. The scriptures are true, whether old or new.

But one thing you have to understand about spiritual expressions, especially in hebrew language is that it has more synonyms than english. So it can have different levels of the same word, which creates ambiguities when translated into english.

There are different levels of seeing, just as there are different levels of knowing.

If you ask three people, Do you know Janet? One will say yes I know her, she lives across our street. Another will say yes I know her, she's my very good friend. And another will say, Yes I know her, she's my wife.

Now, they all know Janet, but on three levels. One is casual knowing, one is close knowing and one is consummate knowing.

English language does not recognise these different levels, so it translates them as same thing, creating ambiquities with those who don't understand spiritual expressions.

Seeing God is in levels too, just as knowing Him.

There is a difference between seeing God in a vision, and seeing Him with your n.aked eye. Also, seeing the similitude of God (His image and outline) is different from seeing His face and His form. And this is also different from seeing Him as He truly is -at heart and in character (as n.aked)

Scripture is full and replete with all these different types of "seeing" God,which are not the same level spiritually. But english doesn't acknowledge this different levels and translates them as same, creating ambiquities.

This is why we all need more than just literacy to understand the bible and accurately DIVIDE the word of truth.

These are some scriptures

Numbers 12v6-8 -And He said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a VISION, and I will speak unto Him in a dream.

My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the SIMILITUDE of the Lord shall he behold.

Daniel 7v9 -I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment (FORM) was white as snow, and the hair of His head (FACE) like the pure wool.

There are more scriptures, but can't look them up now.

I believe in the context of which Jesus has SEEN the Father; no man has seen God in that way. We are going to spend the rest of eternity seeing and knowing Him that way.

Hope this helps a little.

i dn't stil undastand because that part of bible says they saw God and ate and drank and God did nt raise his hand upon them. Which means he appeared to them. However, u did nt provide any biblical prove that John 1:18 is talking abt seeing God spiritually. I really wana learn. I'm open minded.

When John said no one has ever seen God The Spirit was saying "No one has seen God in the fullness of His person except the Son" nd in Exodus the Spirit says repeatedly "The Lord appear in His Glory not in person". The Scripture never contradict eachother but men may confuse demselves when trying to twist d Word of God.

deleib:
BUT HOW DO U EXPLAIN THAT IT IS GOD THE SON, I DON'T UNDASTAND and who's PaulGRUNDY?

This is the original hebrew interlinear translation of Exodus 24:11

אֶת-הָאֱלֹהִים, וַיֹּאכְלוּ, וַיִּשְׁתּוּ.  {ס}11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; and they beheld God, and did eat and drink. {S}

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0224.htm

This is what the Jehovah's witness translation (watchtower) said

Exodus 24:11 NWT as follows:

“And he did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision* of the [true] God and ate and drank.”

The Watchtower Society teaches the Witnesses that no man has seen God. In order to promote this false teaching, they isolate certain verses and take them out-of-context.

vooks:
Talk to PaulGrundy
Nobody has ever seen God the Father, the Israelites saw the Son. When you start claiming that inspired scriptures such as Exodus 24:11 is a lie, you should tell us what is not,and what criteria you used to separate lies from the truth

Broad day light manipulation of Bible text like this will still be viewed by witnesses as a mistake, its very sad.

Mr op, except u're looking for something else, I believe Mr Ayoka and Mr Starlingleanet has answered ur question. Unless u don't understand English..

deleib:
I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

The amazing thing is that these verses resolve your confusion themselves! No one has seen God in all his glory. In Exodus, God hid Moses from seeing his face. Isaiah, John, and others saw a vision of God. God takes on a form (like a burning bush to Moses or a whirlwind to Job) before conversing with man.

Thank u all 4 d clarity and God bless!

paulGrundy:


This is the original hebrew interlinear translation of Exodus 24:11

אֶת-הָאֱלֹהִים, וַיֹּאכְלוּ, וַיִּשְׁתּוּ.  {ס}11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; and they beheld God, and did eat and drink. {S}

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0224.htm

This is what the Jehovah's witness translation (watchtower) said

Exodus 24:11 NWT as follows:

“And he did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision* of the [true] God and ate and drank.”

The Watchtower Society teaches the Witnesses that no man has seen God. In order to promote this false teaching, they isolate certain verses and take them out-of-context.

The Watchtower Society promotes this FALSE TEACHING eh!

Please tell me, Did Jesus( Son of God, whom some viewed as God Almighty) lied in John 6: 46 " NOT THAT 'ANY' MAN HAS SEEN THE FATHER 'EXCEPT' HIM WHO IS FROM GOD; He has seen the Father "

John 5:37 " and the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me, HIS VOICE YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD, HIS FORM YOU NEVER SEEN "

So Apostle John wrote Lies @ John 1:18 "NO ONE HAS 'EVER' SEEN GOD... [/b] "

Also Apostle Paul was lying too @ 1 Timothy 6:15,16 " ....who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, WHOM NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR CAN SEE.... "

If these people along with JW are liars, then why believe anything found in the Bible.

paulGrundy:


The amazing thing is that these verses resolve your confusion themselves! No one has seen God in all his glory. In Exodus, God hid Moses from seeing his face. Isaiah, John, and others saw a vision of God. God takes on a form (like a burning bush to Moses or a whirlwind to Job) before conversing with man .

Acts 7:30,35,38 "....AN ANGEL appeared to him...in a flame of fire in a bush....God sent as both ruler and deliverer by the hand of THE ANGEL that APPEARED to him in the bush....This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness WITH THE ANGEL WHO SPOKE TO HIM AT MOUNT SINAI, and with our FOREFATHERS.... [/b] "

deleib:


I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

I believe you did not understand what the JW said or he answered you without making proper research on a Matter he knows little about.

Please read this scriptures and make your conclusion:

1) Did Moses and Other Isrealites see God/The Father/Jehovah at all? Acts 7:30,35,38
"Angels represented God at times like in the case of Abraham"

2) Has any man seen "the form" of the Father/Jehovah at anytime? John 1:18; John 5:37; John 6:46; 1 Timothy 6:15,16
; 1 John 4:12 "No man has seen God 'at any time' .... "

Jehovah is invisible, can you see an invisible thing. The meaning of the word "invisible" does not change.

RikoduoSennin:


The Watchtower Society promotes this FALSE TEACHING eh!

Please tell me, Did Jesus( Son of God, whom some viewed as God Almighty) lied in John 6: 46 " NOT THAT 'ANY' MAN HAS SEEN THE FATHER 'EXCEPT' HIM WHO IS FROM GOD; He has seen the Father "

John 5:37 " and the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me, HIS VOICE YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD, HIS FORM YOU NEVER SEEN "

So Apostle John wrote Lies @ John 1:18 "NO ONE HAS 'EVER' SEEN GOD... [/b] "

Also Apostle Paul was lying too @ 1 Timothy 6:15,16 " ....who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, WHOM NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR CAN SEE.... "

If these people along with JW are liars, then why believe anything found in the Bible.

Don't derail from the point I made, was the original manuscript altered in the NWT?

If you are trying to justify the alteration of the Bible to suit watchtower interpretation/bias, then I feel sorry for you. SMH. I wonder how many other portions of the scripture that have been changed, that you would defend. this is just gross disrespect for the bible! Irritating!

paulGrundy:


Don't derail from the point I made, was the original manuscript altered in the NWT?

If you are trying to justify the alteration of the Bible to suit watchtower interpretation/bias, then I feel sorry for you. SMH. I wonder how many other portions of the scripture that have been changed, that you would defend. this is just gross disrespect for the bible! Irritating!

This thread was not created for your WT bashing!

You are derailing it, hence breaking Nairaland rules: it was not create to analyse the wordings of NWT.

The wordings are not relevant, what is, is What does the bible say on the subject matter!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me indulge you this once!

No two English translation of the Bible is exactly the same in wordings no matter how hard they try. What is important is the ideal conveyed by the Original manuscript and if it is easily understandable.

Do you think any of these Bible translation is a word for word Transliteratio of the original manuscript? Do you think the originals contains every verb found in various translations of the bible.

Please study/Research how any Translation of literally work is done to any language in the world, it will help!

RikoduoSennin:


This thread was not created for your WT bashing!

You are derailing it, hence breaking Nairaland rules: it was not create to analyse the wordings of NWT.

The wordings are not relevant, what is, is What does the bible say on the subject matter!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me indulge you this once!

No two English translation of the Bible is exactly the same in wordings no matter how hard they try. What is important is the ideal conveyed by the Original manuscript and if it is easily understandable.

Do you think any of these Bible translation is a word for word Transliteratio of the original manuscript? Do you think the originals contains every verb found in various translations of the bible.

Please study/Research how any Translation of literally work is done to any language in the world, it will help!

I provided a link to you of a paraphrase translation of the original manuscript and then you are making insinuations that it is not accurate. If you think it does not contain every verb in the original manuscript, then the onus is on you to provide the original/correct one. Then if not, am afraid to say that you are very biased.

deleib:
I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

Why would you go to a JW or members of any christain group to explain the bible to you? Study the Bible yourself and ask the holyspirit for interpretation he would clearly interpret it for you. I feel you may need to know more about this unique sect (JW's) go to

www.jwfacts.com

I hope I have been of help to you

deleib:
I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

Sir , hope ayoka, sterlingnealet and rikodou have been able to answer your questions .
One thing we should note is that the scriptures explains scriptures. If u look at what other scriptures that where quoted say concerning the possibility of man being able to see God, then you can come to a better understanding of what that scripture under contention is really saying .
If you want to know more about jehovahs witnesses and what they teach, call on anyone of them and discuss with them, its free , no forced contribution. You can also visit their official website which is www.jw.org .
That is the website operated by them

dolphinheart:


Sir , hope ayoka, sterlingnealet and rikodou have been able to answer your questions .
One thing we should note is that the scriptures explains scriptures. If u look at what other scriptures that where quoted say concerning the possibility of man being able to see God, then you can come to a better understanding of what that scripture under contention is really saying .
If you want to know more about jehovahs witnesses and what they teach, call on anyone of them and discuss with them, its free , no forced contribution. You can also visit their official website which is www.jw.org .
That is the website operated by them

@delelb, would you rather prefer to have a subjective/hollywood-star-view of jehovah's witnesses? Promoted by JW's themselves?

Or an honest, objective, and accurate view of Jehovahs witnesses contained in www.jwfacts.com?

If I were you, I would go for the latter, I would rather go for a site a provides me with tested, trusted and verifiable information.

paulGrundy:


@delelb, would you rather prefer to have a subjective/hollywood-star-view of jehovah's witnesses? Promoted by JW's themselves?

Or an honest, objective, and accurate view of Jehovahs witnesses contained in www.jwfacts.com?

If I were you, I would go for the latter, I would rather go for a site a provides me with tested, trusted and verifiable information.

@deleib, I want to believe you re in search of bible truth, that is why you posted this thread.
Take time , look at all the posts posted before now on this thread, look at who has tried helping in answering ur questions and who has just come to attack others.
With that you will know who wants you to learn about God, and where you can gain more knowledge about Gods words. Thank you

dolphinheart:


@deleib, I want to believe you re in search of bible truth, that is why you posted this thread.
Take time , look at all the posts posted before now on this thread, look at who has tried helping in answering ur questions and who has just come to attack others.
With that you will know who wants you to learn about God, and where you can gain more knowledge about Gods words. Thank you

@deleib, which matters most to you? Those who try to answer your questions or the accurate truth?

Sometimes people can be sincerely wrong. Remember what the bible told us, a simpleton believes everything he hears, a wise man on the other hand understands the need for proof. Jwfacts.com makes it easy for your to verify the authencity of its claims. If you are wise, you would investigate the contents of jw.org and jwfacts.com of any form of lies and falsehood. You come across as an intelligent young man