I would like to wish everyone a happy new year and many happy returns.

And to those of a rationalist and atheistic disposition, please allow me to take this opportunity to make some suggestions to make 2009 CE the start of a new cultural climate in your community. If you live in a predominantly theistic society, you will be aware of the extent to which non-theists and rationalists are despised, marginalised and discriminated against. Ironically, the non-theists and rationalists tend to those of more than average educational attainment, skilled professional scientists, engineers, philosophers, educators.  For fear of social ostracisation, many atheist play the game of polite reticence about the true nature of the position with respect to religions and Abrahamic theism in particular.  The fear and marginalisation of atheist has been defined as atheophobia.

I think the atheist have been silence for far to long and our unwillingness to speak out is indirectly hurting our standing in out communities.  In some cases, our friends and families who are religions don't even know that they have atheists in their midst, with the atheist playing along with the majority theistic mellieu they inhabit.  I think this polite reticence is hurtful in many ways, not least the psychological pressure it creates in the efforts to hide ones true self from ones' friends and family. Further, it creates the environment in which bigotry against atheists goes unexamined and unchallenged.

I submit that we can begin to reverse this bigotry by being more open about atheism and being more willing to challenge accepted religious dogmas in our communities.  In short, we must be prepared to educate the members of our communities about atheism, science, critical thinking and philosophy, etc.  This calls for each and every one of us to develop a strategy for discussing religion/theism/atheism with family, friends and adhoc members of the public.

My approach is to start by undermining the mainstay of the Christian narrative, the bible, given that I inhabit a predominantly Judeo-Christian environment.  I have formulated a series of question which invariable gets the Christians stumped for answers, planting doubts in their minds.  I have already discussed many of such questions here, but here are a few:

1)  If you had been at Jesus trial would you have called for his conviction or his exoneration?
2)  The Genealogy of Jesus - Was Jesus from the bloodline of David through his mother or father?
3)  The Virgin birth prophecy - Isaiah 14: 7 does is not a prophecy of Jesus, is it?
4)  The birth narrative - Was Jesus born before 4BC or around 6CE?
5)  When did Jesus claim he was going to return?
6)  Jesus had sectarian tendencies, advising his followers not to go to the towns of non-Jews
7)  The violence and barbarism of the bible, human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, rape, pillage ordered by God
8-)   The series of contradiction and scientific absurdities
9)   Failed prophecies
10) How the bible narrative contradicts with scientific realism such as with the bizarre biblical cosmology, the absurd creation story, the flood story etc, etc.

These are just a few and they are apt to expose the weakness of the bible as the basis of a modern worldview.

So my suggestion is that we undertake to educate our respective communities  about atheism, scientific rationalism by being actively involved in promoting a rationalistic worldview.


Please, join me in making 2009 the year of Atheist Activism to raise awareness of atheism and fight back atheophobia


Thank and all the best

lol@post

Dude, i am an atheist and an atheist that thinks more than he barks. Truthfully, we all know that Atheists are in the extreme minority and it leads to discrimination, xenophobic attitudes, racism, pure hatred from some religious fanatics. But i dont think engaging in a confrontational war with religious people would solve anything. Instead it will promote more hate and discrimination.

I also know that those that are strictly into religion would not buldge for a second to retrace their steps and renounce their beliefs, neither would atheists be ready to shift ground for them. It is both a win win situation for us and them. Rather, we should try and appeal to neutrals who are undecided about a particular religion or belief to add their own constructive debates to choose what ever lifestyle and beliefs they are interested in.

Its not by force to be a christian, muslim or atheist and engaging in an unholy verbal war to discredit their religions won't yield any good.

Yes we talk about biblical contradictions, historical fallacies in the bible, violent and uncivilized parts of the bible and quoran but you should know that these religious apologists have a million and one defences from the sublime to the mundane and if that doesnt work, an all time favourite is to pour vitriol on us. This is an endless cycle that would achieve nothing.

So rather, i believe this should be a year when atheists actually talk about the good things of being an atheist and why atheists can just be as morally upright as religious apologists and what atheists can do to make the world a better and safer place instead of engaging in endless repitious debates that provides more scorn, sarcastic and discriminatory attitudes.

Funny enough, i was a someone who wasnt really sure about my religious beliefs and had been searching for clues to know what really is the truth. Nairaland helped me out because i read your posts for almost a year behind the scenes, trying to analyse which posts were true and which ones were false or mere propaganda to win converts.

So step up your campaigns to win more neutrals like me that are behind the scenes or closet atheists, but try and avoid spats with religious apologists. It breeds more contempt than love. 2008 should have given you enough experience and pointers to whom you should avoid and who you should bring closer!

Seth Cohen:

lol@post

Dude, i am an atheist and an atheist that thinks more than he barks. Truthfully, we all know that Atheists are in the extreme minority and it leads to discrimination, xenophobic attitudes, racism, pure hatred from some religious fanatics. But i don't think engaging in a confrontational war with religious people would solve anything. Instead it will promote more hate and discrimination.

I also know that those that are strictly into religion would not buldge for a second to retrace their steps and renounce their beliefs, neither would atheists be ready to shift ground for them. It is both a win win situation for us and them. Rather, we should try and appeal to neutrals who are undecided about a particular religion or belief to add their own constructive debates to choose what ever lifestyle and beliefs they are interested in.

Its not by force to be a christian, muslim or atheist and engaging in an unholy verbal war to discredit their religions won't yield any good.

Yes we talk about biblical contradictions, historical fallacies in the bible, violent and uncivilized parts of the bible and quoran but you should know that these religious apologists have a million and one defences from the sublime to the mundane and if that doesnt work, an all time favourite is to pour vitriol on us. This is an endless cycle that would achieve nothing.

So rather, i believe this should be a year when atheists actually talk about the good things of being an atheist and why atheists can just be as morally upright as religious apologists and what atheists can do to make the world a better and safer place instead of engaging in endless repitious debates that provides more scorn, sarcastic and discriminatory attitudes.

Funny enough, i was a someone who wasnt really sure about my religious beliefs and had been searching for clues to know what really is the truth. Nairaland helped me out because i read your posts for almost a year behind the scenes, trying to analyse which posts were true and which ones were false or mere propaganda to win converts.

So step up your campaigns to win more neutrals like me that are behind the scenes or closet atheists, but try and avoid spats with religious apologists. It breeds more contempt than love. 2008 should have given you enough experience and pointers to whom you should avoid and who you should bring closer!

I agree to the point that some debates are pointless, sometimes though it is necessary, in all I think you are very right about setting up campaigns to win the neutrals.

Seth Cohen:

lol@post

Dude, i am an atheist and an atheist that thinks more than he barks. Truthfully, we all know that Atheists are in the extreme minority and it leads to discrimination, xenophobic attitudes, racism, pure hatred from some religious fanatics. But i don't think engaging in a confrontational war with religious people would solve anything. Instead it will promote more hate and discrimination.

I also know that those that are strictly into religion would not buldge for a second to retrace their steps and renounce their beliefs, neither would atheists be ready to shift ground for them. It is both a win win situation for us and them. Rather, we should try and appeal to neutrals who are undecided about a particular religion or belief to add their own constructive debates to choose what ever lifestyle and beliefs they are interested in.

Its not by force to be a christian, muslim or atheist and engaging in an unholy verbal war to discredit their religions won't yield any good.

Yes we talk about biblical contradictions, historical fallacies in the bible, violent and uncivilized parts of the bible and quoran but you should know that these religious apologists have a million and one defences from the sublime to the mundane and if that doesnt work, an all time favourite is to pour vitriol on us. This is an endless cycle that would achieve nothing.

So rather, i believe this should be a year when atheists actually talk about the good things of being an atheist and why atheists can just be as morally upright as religious apologists and what atheists can do to make the world a better and safer place instead of engaging in endless repitious debates that provides more scorn, sarcastic and discriminatory attitudes.

Funny enough, i was a someone who wasnt really sure about my religious beliefs and had been searching for clues to know what really is the truth. Nairaland helped me out because i read your posts for almost a year behind the scenes, trying to analyse which posts were true and which ones were false or mere propaganda to win converts.

So step up your campaigns to win more neutrals like me that are behind the scenes or closet atheists, but try and avoid spats with religious apologists. It breeds more contempt than love. 2008 should have given you enough experience and pointers to whom you should avoid and who you should bring closer!

Good points here and I agree with all of them. I hope my initial post did not come out as calling for unnecessary antagonism towards the theists and their religions. Far from it. If we hope to win hearts and minds we have got to be the paragon of civility and virtue so that our arguments are not undermines by our style.

What I am calling for is more preparedness to self-identify as atheists or skeptics or doubters of tradition theism. For each situation, you will have to decide which strategy to adopt and how to self-identify in a way that does not offend unruly but still puts you in a separate intellectual camp than the theists.

A propos the target audience, I think as you said, we stand the best chances of winning the neutrals. However, we should not be reticent about speaking out for our position if and when the right situation arises. For my part, apart from my online activism, I would never directly confront anyone about their beliefs in person. However, I get stopped on the streets a great deal or visited at home by Christians activist all the time. Only on such occasion do I politely begin to undermine the basis of their beliefs. I agree that such casual contact is unlikely to change minds but it would at least educate the theists (those amenable to educating) about the reasons for our non-belief. To turn the tides, we have got to evince integrity, self-control, wisdom, education and of course good humour.

I am really glad to hear that my posts were instrumental in getting you to examine the fraudulent claims of religions and have put you on the part to intellectual freedom and maturity. Welcome to freedom.

Seth Cohen:

Its not by force to be a christian, muslim or atheist and engaging in an unholy verbal war to discredit their religions won't yield any good.

So rather, i believe this should be a year when atheists actually talk about the good things of being an atheist and why atheists can just be as morally upright as religious apologists and what atheists can do to make the world a better and safer place instead of engaging in endless repitious debates that provides more scorn, sarcastic and discriminatory attitudes.

Thank you very much. At least an athiest with a brain.

I have been singing the tune in bold for so so so long. If you dont wish to be christian simply move on with ur life. Christians on this forum dont relate with you on the basis of what religion you have stamped on ur ID. If you have problems with ur immediate family do not come to take it out on us. It truly isnt our fault your family is very conservative.

I laugh at Huxley's idea of athiest activism as outlined here - My approach is to start by undermining the mainstay of the Christian narrative

this is exactly why i cant but shake my head when someone says the world would be a better place if we were all areligious. The militant "we must destroy them if they dont see our point of view" attitude of the atheist is no different from that of fundamentalist religionists.

At the end of the day Hux, you just sounded the same as the very religionists you love to bash.

All say welcome to the world's latest fundamentalist religion - athiesm.

Long may we still have our heads on our necks if we dont kow-tow to their wishes.

ROTFLMAO@ HUXLEY AND THIS TOPIC

SO YOU DECIDE TO DO THE VERY THING YOU STAND AGAINST??

LOLOLOLOLOL UH HYPOCRITE MUCH?


LOLOLOLOL@

Ironically, the non-theists and rationalists tend to those of more than average educational attainment, skilled professional scientists, engineers, philosophers, educators.

UH WHERE IS YOUR CENSUS FROM? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,


EYA PELE, MOVE ON WITH LIFE, THAT IS MUCH MORE AATTAINABLE AND RESPECTABLE. DON'T BECOME A NUISANCE TO SOCIETY OK.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

DUDE YOU ARE ALL TOO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been singing the tune in bold for so so so long. If you don't wish to be christian simply move on with ur life. Christians on this forum don't relate with you on the basis of what religion you have stamped on ur ID. If you have problems with ur immediate family do not come to take it out on us. It truly isnt our fault your family is very conservative.

I laugh at Huxley's idea of athiest activism as outlined here - My approach is to start by undermining the mainstay of the Christian narrative

this is exactly why i can't but shake my head when someone says the world would be a better place if we were all areligious. The militant "we must destroy them if they don't see our point of view" attitude of the atheist is no different from that of fundamentalist religionists.

At the end of the day Hux, you just sounded the same as the very religionists you love to bash.



Long may we still have our heads on our necks if we don't kow-tow to their wishes

Abi o@ the bold.

All say welcome to the world's latest fundamentalist religion - athiesm.

Welcome atheist RELIGION!!!!

Thank God I'm not the only who sees that. AMEN!!!!!!!


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

~Lady~:

ROTFLMAO@ HUXLEY AND THIS TOPIC

SO YOU DECIDE TO DO THE VERY THING YOU STAND AGAINST??

LOLOLOLOLOL UH HYPOCRITE MUCH?


LOLOLOLOL@
UH WHERE IS YOUR CENSUS FROM? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,


EYA PELE, MOVE ON WITH LIFE, THAT IS MUCH MORE AATTAINABLE AND RESPECTABLE. DON'T BECOME A NUISANCE TO SOCIETY OK.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

DUDE YOU ARE ALL TOO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Abi o@ the bold.

Welcome atheist RELIGION!!!!

Thank God I'm not the only who sees that. AMEN!!!!!!!


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

davidylan:

Thank you very much. At least an athiest with a brain.

I have been singing the tune in bold for so so so long. If you don't wish to be christian simply move on with ur life. Christians on this forum don't relate with you on the basis of what religion you have stamped on ur ID. If you have problems with ur immediate family do not come to take it out on us. It truly isnt our fault your family is very conservative.

I laugh at Huxley's idea of athiest activism as outlined here - My approach is to start by undermining the mainstay of the Christian narrative

this is exactly why i can't but shake my head when someone says the world would be a better place if we were all areligious. The militant "we must destroy them if they don't see our point of view" attitude of the atheist is no different from that of fundamentalist religionists.

At the end of the day Hux, you just sounded the same as the very religionists you love to bash.

All say welcome to the world's latest fundamentalist religion - athiesm.

Long may we still have our heads on our necks if we don't kow-tow to their wishes.

If you are not able to see the difference between what I am calling for and the nature of mainstream Christian proslytisation, then you need to have your head examined.

Firstly, I am calling for atheist, agnostics, skeptics and doubters to readily self-identify within their communities. As is evident from some post here on NL, there are many atheists, agnostics etc, here whose close family are not aware of their non-belief in the family's local deities. Self-identifying within you community liberates you to lead a philosophical consistent and intellectually satisfying life.

Obviously, self-identifying will attract criticisms from the religious members of your community. This is where educating the religious public comes in. To effectively educate them you have got to be able to show that the religious claims are simply falsehoods and you have got to be able to offer a better approach that is more consistent with the nature reality.

In fact, what I am suggesting is akin to the civil rights struggle of homosexuals and African-Americans in the USA. How are we going to break down the marginalisation and bigotry against atheists if we never self-identify.

No need fighting the religious people, they are self desturcting them selves for now. A good friend(very conservative christain) of mine was getting a little sad and asking himself that why is that God does not answer prayers the other day . So no need fighting them, we should just fight for our rights. By the way athiest and irreligious people are now about a billion in the world. we are not a minority as some one suggested we are only a minority in places like africa where most of the people don't even know what they want in life.

bindex:

No need fighting the religious people, they are self desturcting them selves for now. A good friend(very conservative christain) of mine was getting a little sad and asking himself that why is that God does not answer prayers the other day . So no need fighting them, we should just fight for our rights. By the way athiest and irreligious people are now about a billion in the world. we are not a minority as some one suggested we are only a minority in places like africa where most of the people don't even know what they want in life.

See your point, but I am not suggesting confrontation. Far from that. Of course, everyone has got to assess their own local situation and make a decision as to whether it is wise to come out as a non-theist. If you think you well-being would be jeopadise, by all means don't come out.

And DON'T antagonise the religionist unnecessarily. However, supposing a Christian evangelist were to come up to you to minister. How would you handle that situation? The Christian make the first move and now you ought to respond in a manner that is not only honest to yourself but is also capable of educating the Christian. You do not have to tell him/her that you are an atheist.

I am faced with this situation once or twice every month and I have to make difference decision every time. For me, my gold standard is not to respond in a way that is dishonest to myself. When I am in the mood for discussion, I usually stop and have a chat with them. If I can't stop or am not in the mood, I may just say, "Sorry, I can't talk" or "Sorry, I don't believe in god", and walk away.


In fact, last week, I was stopped on the Streets of Sheffield by a Mormon evangelist. We chatted for about 25 minutes and only revealled to him that I was atheist in the last 5 minutes. But before this, I pressed him hard on the main tenets of his religion - issues such as polygamy, the Character of Joseph Smith, the racist nature of Mormonism, etc, etc. In the end, I had taken all the ground he was standing on away from him and he had no option but to capitulate. I wish him happy Xmas, shoke his hand and walked away.

I submit that this guy now know that the are people out there who have legitimate and rigorous reasons to disbelieve their religious claims.

Another occasion where I had opportunity to question the Christian narrative was presented to me about three years ago, still on the Streets of Sheffield. I had just started a new job in Sheffield and this city was unfamiliar to me at the time. I was walking down a thoroughfare that leads to my office when this placate-carrying Christian elderly man stopped me and asked if I believed in God.

To which I retorted with a question of my own. I asked - "Do you drive a petroleum-based car? If so, how long does it take for natural fauna/flora to be converted in natural petroleum based oils?

My question appeared to have knocked him aback and he instantly went on the defensive. He appeared to have realised just how threatening these questions and their correct answers were to his religious narrative. He responded by saying;

"Of course, it was put there by God about 6000 years ago. You don't believe in the claims of these fraudulent scientist and geologist, do you?"

At which point I ended the conversation and walked to work. This guy spend about 9 hours daily (except Sunday) at this corner of the street, peddling his falsehood. I walk past him almost every day, but he has never tried to stop me again since our first encounter.


This is that sort of strategy I mean. Different situations call for different approaches. You should develop and rehearse an arsenal of approach to use for different situations.

Its not by force to be a christian, muslim or atheist and engaging in an unholy verbal war to discredit their religions won't yield any good.

So rather, i believe this should be a year when atheists actually talk about the good things of being an atheist and why atheists can just be as morally upright as religious apologists and what atheists can do to make the world a better and safer place instead of engaging in endless repitious debates that provides more scorn, sarcastic and discriminatory attitudes.

agree, atheists should look for tolerance rather than some missionary movement.

In fact, what I am suggesting is akin to the civil rights struggle of homosexuals and African-Americans in the USA. How are we going to break down the marginalisation and bigotry against atheists if we never self-identify.

there are freethinking organizations people can join. the internet has proven to be a great way to spread the word. Lots of people are open about their religious beliefs on NL

If you are not able to see the difference between what I am calling for and the nature of mainstream Christian proslytisation, then you need to have your head examined.

Firstly,  I  am calling for atheist, agnostics, skeptics and doubters to readily self-identify within their communities.  As is evident from some post here on NL, there are many atheists, agnostics etc, here whose close family are not aware of their non-belief in the family's local deities.   Self-identifying within you community liberates you to lead a philosophical consistent and intellectually satisfying life.

Obviously, self-identifying will attract criticisms from the religious members of your community.  This is where educating the religious public comes in. To effectively educate them you have got to be able to show that the religious claims are simply falsehoods and you have got to be able to offer a better approach that is more consistent with the nature reality.

In fact, what I am suggesting is akin to the civil rights struggle of homosexuals and African-Americans in the USA.  How are we going to break down the marginalisation and bigotry against atheists if we never self-identify.

You are calling for what you've been fighting against, that's what's making me laugh. Oh I get it, I get it very much. You however don't seem to realise that all you've been fighting against, is what you are trying to accomplish.

Please do not identify the struggle of African-Americans in the USA with the struggle of homosexuals and atheists. I worked with them and I spoke with them, and they would be glad to let you know that civil rights was a religious fight, they are asking the homosexual community not to hijack the struggle of African-Americans and turn it into their own.
Look at the people that fought for civil rights, they are religious people and they will tell you that being black is not a choice, homosexuality IS a choice, it has not been proven to be genetical and natural, and until then it can never be identified with the struggle of AAs. There are homosexuals that were heterosexuals first, and then with life struggles they became homosexuals, for the mere fact that these people exist the claim that homosexuality is not a choice is ridiculous. AAs were never white and then chose to be black.

Atheism is a choice, you were not born with it and it is not a disease, and we don't care if you want to be an atheist, we just want you to stop invading our peace.

You fight for your belief that there is no God, I fight for my belief that there is God, how can you tell me that you have the right to fight for your belief and I don't. Why am I the bigot when you're trying to push your belief down my throat? Why am I the bigot when you're trying to force your point of view on me? Why am I the bigot when you're the one invading the religion section and posting theophobic topics?
Have you ever considered that you're the invader and not us? Take a look at where you are, you are in the religion section, you don't believe in religion and yet you're here posting all that you can freely without consequences, insulting us and our intelligence. And you want to call us the bigots?

Take a look at yourself before you start pointing fingers.

And what falsehoods might that be? That one can hope for something greater? That one should love their neighbor as themselves? That one should do no harm? Is that the falsehood you're fighting against?
That one can believe that there is a supreme being, the life source for all energy in our universe? How is that falsehood? Isn't the world enough proof for you that there is a supreme life source?

How did the big bang get to happen? What triggered it? What gave it that spark? What it came out of nowhere? What is that nowhere?
Can you prove this falsehood?

If what we've provided is not sufficient proof for you, then by all means prove that God does not exist. Where is your own proof?


DUDE FOR REAL, CHECK YOURSELF!!!!!

And DON'T antagonise the religionist unnecessarily. However, supposing a Christian evangelist were to come up to you to minister. How would you handle that situation? The Christian make the first move and now you ought to respond in a manner that is not only honest to yourself but is also capable of educating the Christian. You do not have to tell him/her that you are an atheist.

LOL, Educating the Christian? What are we all idiots now? Because we don't fall into your error, we must be stupid? Well huxley you must have reached the place of "know it all" by all means share with us.

Educating the Christian on what, that there is no God, where is your proof?

We tell you there is a God, we do all we can to help you see it. You insist that it is not enough, if you want us to follow your path, please provide us with sufficient proof that there is no God.

I want hardcore evidence, show it to me with logic, how there is no God. I want there to be FACTS.

My question appeared to have knocked him aback and he instantly went on the defensive. He appeared to have realised just how threatening these questions and their correct answers were to his religious narrative. He responded by saying;

"Of course, it was put there by God about 6000 years ago. You don't believe in the claims of these fraudulent scientist and geologist, do you?"

Oh what you meet one Christian and all of a sudden all must be stupid like him. I'm a Christian, but I surely do not accept Sarah Palin as one.

What about the millions of scientists (biologists, chemists, physicists, all of them), engineers, accountants, philosophers, and much more educated people in the world that believe in God and would defend it to their death. I know lots of them and we're sick and tired of people like you who call us idiots because we choose to believe in God. We attend the same universities as you, teach in those same univerisities and research institutions, study and research what you do, we've broken many scientific grounds in our respective area of study and yes we still believe in God, but we're automatically idiots because we do believe in God.

What you think all we do all day is sit with the Bible and try to understand it? How foolish of you? How would the world function if that is all we do everyday?
Take a look around you, those people with faith are the ones filled with compassion for the unfortunate, they're the ones getting in the dirt and helping others, making a change in the world, while you are sitting around on your computer trying to figure out how to dismantle religion, or chatting with your friends and laughing at our "foolishness", and praising your self-acclaimed "knowledge"

Get off your arse, and make a change in the world. Then come back and tell me what moved you to it. Tell me if it's compassion, and I'll tell you that it is my faith, yes my belief in human dignity that moves me to help a fellow man, it is that belief in human dignity that keeps me from equating a human life with that of a dog or a dolphin or ape.

Lady,

Responding to you would be like talking with a 17th century infant.

Bye!

huxley:

Lady,

Responding to you would be like talking with a 17th century infant.

Bye!

And here I was thinking you had balls.
Guess what? You're still the one invading the religion section. Bye!

huxley:

Lady,

Responding to you would be like talking with a 17th century infant.

Bye!

@Huxley

Take it easy with Lady, even if she didn't indicate that she is female I would know from her posts, she has got that emotional thing about her and most women do have to beleive in something if not God, their husbands, their children or even in some instances their best friends.

My sister who is a psychiatrist says it has something to do with the evolution of women in the biological role of women in nurturing and bearing babies while needing to have some type of support structure to lean on so that they are not overwhelmed.

She doesn't claim to be a "Mrs Know All" like our resident hypocrite though and most of her arguments are usually the emotional tirade types and she flares up when it seems you belittle something she has beleived in all her life or if you imply in any way that she is not smart(even when yu have alot of reasons to beleive so).

Still working on a strategy on how to make her realise what hogwash this whole religion thing is, I mean when yu do get the courage to really question the whole concept it becomes so simple and you wonder why you didn't face up to it all along, kind of like the story about the King who had no clothes on, all it took was a sincere youngster to point out the obvious.

duduspace:

@Huxley


She doesn't claim to be a "Mrs Know All"like our resident hypocrite though and most of her arguments are usually the emotional tirade types and she flares up when it seems you belittle something she has beleived in all her life or if you imply in any way that she is not smart(even when yu have alot of reasons to beleive so).

Still working on a strategy on how to make her realise what hogwash this whole religion thing is, I mean when yu do get the courage to really question the whole concept it becomes so simple and you wonder why you didn't face up to it all along, kind of like the story about the King who had no clothes on, all it took was a sincere youngster to point out the obvious.

where is that discredited hypocrite? . your points are very true duduspace.

restless sinners. i watched on the BBc some years ago how the great communists were holding meetings upon meetings in communist russia  to wipe off christianity from their land in 10yrs.  guess who got wiped off - the communists.

the church of Jesus Christ is always expanding and increasing. all that rises against it will always fall for it sake.  that is the written judgement and it is still in force this day even against people like you.

God would bring all people like you on your knees this year and it is going to be swift.  whatever is making you this bold will give way so suddenly that you will remember there is a God that created the heavens and the earth.

your arrogance is getting obscene.

JJYOU:

restless sinners. i watched on the BBc some years ago how the great communists were holding meetings upon meetings in communist russia  to wipe off christianity from their land in 10yrs.  guess who got wiped off - the communists.

the church of Jesus Christ is always expanding and increasing. all that rises against it will always fall for it sake.  that is the written judgement and it is still in force this day even against people like you.

God would bring all people like you on your knees this year and it is going to be swift.  whatever is making you this bold will give way so suddenly that you will remember there is a God that created the heavens and the earth.

your arrogance is getting obscene.

have you finished causing trouble on the sex and sexuality forum? the church of christ is always expanding and incearsing where? in africa where the people are poor, ignorant, illiterate and close minded? the europeans that invented the religion do not even believe in it any more go figure. by the way the movement of allah and his prophet (islam) is growing at a faster rate than your christainity.

mazaje:

where is that discredited hypocrite? . your points are very true duduspace.

Don't mind that guy jooo, trying to bring 2 parallel lines in alignment. Religion and science don't mix in any way or form, you either choose one or the other.

I know there are christians who are scientists but the sincere ones among them have their serious doubts and are either quiet about it or see it as filling a psychological need for some people and also helping in character development for kids and immatured adults(just like aesop fables or the stories of the tortoise in yoruba folklore).

Hypocrites like our dear friend ended up creating scientology as a religion only leading to even more confusion.

One thing the discussion did though was to expose his true nature, in trying to prove a point at all costs he descended to the same depths he was accusing others of. That guy is not even a true christian I'm sure, he must be one of those deceiver types.

@JJYOU

Is that you or your god talking?

If it is your god I will only laugh cos he has shown consistently that his words cannot be depended upon.
If it is you however, that is a totally different matter entirely because you can carry a bomb or start a Jihad or Crusade.
Bottomline is that I know we are safe from your god but are we safe from you?

duduspace:

Don't mind that guy jooo, trying to bring 2 parallel lines in alignment. Religion and science don't mix in any way or form, you either choose one or the other.

I know there are christians who are scientists but the sincere ones among them have their serious doubts and are either quiet about it or see it as filling a psychological need for some people and also helping in character development for kids and immatured adults(just like aesop fables or the stories of the tortoise in yoruba folklore).

Hypocrites like our dear friend ended up creating scientology as a religion only leading to even more confusion.

One thing the discussion did though was to expose his true nature, in trying to prove a point at all costs he descended to the same depths he was accusing others of. That guy is not even a true christian I'm sure, he must be one of those deceiver types.

deceivers like pastor chris of christ embassy or pastor adeboye. perhaps they are related.

Take it easy with Lady, even if she didn't indicate that she is female I would know from her posts, she has got that emotional thing about her and most women do have to beleive in something if not God, their husbands, their children or even in some instances their best friends.

Wow, what a nice way to belittle women? Good job.
She must be emotional if she's a woman.
Pray tell what's wrong with emotions again?

She doesn't claim to be a "Mrs Know All" like our resident hypocrite though and most of her arguments are usually the emotional tirade types and she flares up when it seems you belittle something she has beleived in all her life or if you imply in any way that she is not smart(even when yu have alot of reasons to beleive so).

No I am amazed that so called "people of knowledge" lack basic critical thinking skills, like would it kill you to think?
Would it kill you to realise that on earth there are diverse people and that you shouldn't stereotype?
Would it kill you to take a step back and see that maybe you are the problem and not the other way around?

You are the non-religious one on the religion section, go figure.
Who's the odd one out? Who's invading who here?

Still working on a strategy on how to make her realise what hogwash this whole religion thing is, I mean when yu do get the courage to really question the whole concept it becomes so simple and you wonder why you didn't face up to it all along, kind of like the story about the King who had no clothes on, all it took was a sincere youngster to point out the obvious.

Here's a good strategy, prove that there is no God.

I asked huxley to back up his claim that there is no God, and instead he says I'm a 17th century infant, ok, that still doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.

You guys want to educate us? You want to free us from our lack of intelligence? Prove that there is no God.

Don't mind that guy jooo, trying to bring 2 parallel lines in alignment. Religion and science don't mix in any way or form, you either choose one or the other.

Lol, and you guys were saying we're the idiots.

please guys i'll encourage you all to reconsider your stance

Don't mind that guy jooo, trying to bring 2 parallel lines in alignment. Religion and science don't mix in any way or form, you either choose one or the other

how does this explain the many medical doctors who are religious? some even becoming religious after entering their profession.

I like reading religion thread on nairaland but i am searching for atheist section but cant find it even though the admin is one of them, lol

@Lady and Oyinda

To answer your questions jointly, did you read this part of my post? or you are going down davidylan's path of selective reading?
I beg of you, e jooo, biko,  please don't because you might lose even your treasured beliefs and become deceptive along that path.

duduspace:

I know there are christians who are scientists but the sincere ones among them have their serious doubts and are either quiet about it or see it as filling a psychological need for some people and also helping in character development for kids and immatured adults(just like aesop fables or the stories of the tortoise in yoruba folklore).

Hypocrites like our dear friend ended up creating scientology as a religion only leading to even more confusion.

Please, let us keep science and religion apart since we have so far failed in keeping government/politics apart from religion hence leading to all the katakata world over. If you want to add science join am, wetin go remain?

@Lady
You are getting emotional again, mind you I said "Most women" and not "All women" and you are very right there is nothing wrong in being emotional to the extent that it does not cloud logical reasoning. But you would agree with me that being logical is not typical women's forte(though I'm not so sure if this is inherent nature or if it is due to social conditioning).

Besides I just find it difficult handling emotional people whether it is the crying, shouting, fighting or even writing type (except I'm inducing outburst of such emotions for my own selfish purposes).

As to proving wether God dey or not, me I no know but I know that

1. Nobody can prove that he exists and if you want me to beleive in something, I beleive the burden of proof lies with you and not the other way round or to put it another way, I'm askin you not to believe in somethin no one can completely prove while you are asking me to beleive in something that no one can completely disprove.

2. Even if he exists, he is not any of these Gods that people have made in their own images to serve their purposes which are mostly political or economic.

3. Even if he exists, I don't think he wants me to worship him (just as PC manufacturers don't expect their products to worship them apart from the vain types).

4. If he exists, and is a good God (within my concept of what is good and evil) he will want the best for his creation and what we have now is definitely not the best whereas it is being attributed to God meaning that God is not Good and if he is not Good I see no reason to worship him because between you and I, I'm not even sure he will always favour those who worship him (Just read the story of Job to see what I mean, making a man go through that hell just to prove a point to another of his creations!!!).

Enough of my ramblings, I hope you catch my drift.

Personally i think this fall out between Religious apologists and Atheists can be traced to different aspects of interpretation of the holy books.

Actually i am not conversant with Islam that much so i wouldnt really go gung-ho on the Quoran but i am well conversant with Christianity and the bible and i will use this as a case study because i grew up with it till i abandoned it.

There are so many thing that both religious apologists and Atheists will argue on and still not resolve anything. Firstly you argue the existence of the creation story and how man and his surroundings came about and so many theories would crop up trying to make fun and defeat the Adam story leading to the Noah creation story.

After that torrid argument, you shift base to the Mosaic Era and argue extensively over the validity of the Mosaic laws and the kind of lifestyle they lived then. All sorts of horror stories and counter accusations will fly to either defend or dismember those passages. When we are both done, the next point of call is the lifestyle and prophecies of the other prophets and the mixed laws both good, bad and ugly and questioning the authencity of these passages and lifestyle.

Once we have had our fill, we jump immediately to the new testament and question the jesus birth story and his pre adult years, surroundings and works. immediately we argue extensively over his prophecies, miracles and works before we fast forward to the cruxification story and ressurection stories.

As if thats not enough, we argue extensively over the post resurrection gospels and their authencities and laws before we end up with the revelations argument.

Now we move straight to the concept of Heaven and Hell, good Versus evil, god versus satan, real versus non existent, proof, evidence and miracles.

When that is over, we shift to the various Churches and denominations, its miracles, fake or good, the denominations that are either idolatary in practice or money guzzling in practice. From there we attack the pastors, ministers or priests and argue which one is god anointed or not and who is right or wrong and which church is better than the other one etc, before you know, we start attacking the various labels whether catholic, protestant, cele, redeem, christ embassy etc and aligning with one.

It later moves to the interpretation of the biblical verses by different pastors, radical or liberal church members and followers that contradict each other and when you are exhausted from these arguments, We begin back at one again.

"How did Adam come?"

Its a vicious never ending circle that would neither produce a winner or loser. The Christians have an aligned argument to support their views till they get to the segregation part of dividing themselves amongst denominations before they begin to mouth off aginst themselves, while the Atheists just shoot darts at all angles without actually aiming for one target and generally looking for answers where there is none!


To me, the truth is that we are all Atheists searching for answers in different forms and manner. There is no universally acceptable defination of what god is or if he exists that would please everybody because no matter how christians derive their inspiration from the bible, they are still slaves to the various interpretations emanating from their various churches, pastors or spiritual teachers. It is these interpretations over the years by these people that has led to more criticisms, anger and dislike of Christianity because they all vary, contradict and lead to more questions than answers.

I dont think any Atheist who was once a Christian is really happy losing what he grew up with. It just that these interpretations from various scholars and preachers tend to fu**ck the mind up the more than solve anything once you open your mind to browse through the bible objectively.

I dont advocate a violent verbal abuse to solve this quagmire because no matter what happens, we are all learning. We might not admit it but Athiests should accept that the bible isnt as bad as we make it and indeed it does have some parts that teach morals which is very good for every society and Christians should accept that there are also parts of the bible that dont conform with rationality and civility compared to today's world and ought to be expunged.

Once there is this paragrim shift of stuborness from both sides, i think we can come to a mutually understandable agreement!

But i know thats never going to happen!!! It is a War for the conversion of souls to the different camps and i really dont see any ending to this spat

@Seth Cohen

The issue for me has never been whether the Quran, Bible, Book of Satanists or whatever spiritual book you can think of are bad(though some of them are) or that they don't have good uses e.t.c.

The truth is that mankind will be so much better for it when "most" people firstly realise that they are not true, in my discussion with some of my friends here we have come to the conclusion that "critical thinking" is mostly lacking in Nigeria (and some of the other developing countries where all these religious strife holds sway) and that we are being left behind once again in the societal evolution race.

The fact that they are not true does not imply in anyway that some of their teachings and concepts are not useful, every matured individual knows aesop's fables and the tortoise yoruba stories are not true but they do serve a purpose in character building for children and even for adults because they stress respect for others, discourage greed and other vices. Most of the religion's books make for very good moral and philosophical introspection, remember that they are also historical relics of how our societies came to be and contibute largely to the development of our legal laws as well as our understanding of right and wrong.

The problem with religion starts with the idea of an imaginary God whose decisions must not be questioned whether they are rational or not, this idea possibly started out with good intentions as societies evolved (to keep people in line) but it is no longer useful at the developmental stage we are in the present. It is subject to all sorts of abuses which do not bode well for the continued existence of our species.

I personally don't mind anyone believing in the creation of the earth by God (since science has not come up with the answer yet and nature does seem to abhor a vacumm) but I would feel so much better if each individual comes to a personal definition of who/what that God is and what role God should play in the personal life of the individual as well in his interaction with society at large rather than this follow-follow behaviour that is akin to mass hypnotism which pervades our society.

Even most of the religions claim that there is liberation in Knowledge, why then can't they face up to the truth that what they have is mostly a farce? of course, I know the answer to that (it has become so tightly woven into the fabric of society and cannot be suddenly terminated), but I do know that there is an awakening to reality albeit gradual and I can assure you that some of the children of those arguing on this forum will one day question their parents why they could have been so gullible to beleive such things (that is if the religious terrorists don't destroy mankind first) just as some of them have questioned  and mocked those who have gone before them who worshipped Ogun, Sango e.t.c.

This is not to infer in any way that the developed countries who have mostly done away with religion in their body polity are perfect societies but they have succeeded largely in empowering the individual to be responsible for his own actions and decisions rather than this mob mentality we have in Nigeria.

Adam Brody. nice try . . .

''I live in a society where your belifs are respected, As long as you believe in God''
- Pat Condell

Why does delusion deserve respect? When talking about other mythical beings religious people are all ofa sudden back to reality, but when it comes to theirs then NOOOOOO, they (even the most logical people) make ludicrous exceptions when it comes to their belief. People need to wake the hell up.

George Carlin said it best. ''Religion is just MIND CONTROL''