You have some valid points. What if you were told you must do it yourself, cut it in pieces. Would you do it?

chrisd:

You have some valid points. What if you were told you must do it yourself, cut it in pieces. Would you do it?

Why is this relevant? I have no idea if I would do it. I would certainly do all I can to avoid being placed in such a position. Abortion is not a visit to the dentist.

That's what I'm trying to say. One cannot say it's a woman's right.

Why not? It's not an absolute right, but then again, no rights are absolute.

Let's say it can be convenient.

We hold some truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I think it makes it quite clear. Abortion takes away someone’s life, liberty , and happiness. It is too drastic action in my view.

That only applies if the fetus is a person and from the moment that fetus becomes a person.

That is of type homo, noone can argue about that. People try to make others think that a person is not always a person. The distinction is already made as soon as the type is homo.

It's ok for me if you do not want it or care for it, but why destroy it. That's what we are good at, destroying things.

chrisd:

That is of type homo, noone can argue about that. People try to make others think that a person is not always a person. The distinction is already made as soon as the type is homo.

That's why I was saying that you convict by using a specific definition. For me personhood implies sentience, if not, my right toe is of the type homo as well. Am I destroying a human if I amputate my toe?

chrisd:

It's ok for me if you do not want it or care for it, but why destroy it. That's what we are good at, destroying things.

As long as a life form is not sentient, it is nothing but a lump of cells. I value a living adult chimpansee more than a 3 week old embryo.
To put it in extreme terms: speciesm is just another form of racism.

It's the way things are. We cannot change that. Racism or not, everyone does what's best for himself. But perhaps the best result comes when each one of us does the best for himself and others. We have to say that the decision upon which Abortion, Euthanasia etc are ok to do rests on our decision to make it legal, that's all. What I don't like is trying to use arguments to make it look nice. If some culture decides that it wants abortion before 10 weeks or 14, whatever, then it was her decision. But if you ask questions on a scientific aspect, one must expect an answer that one does not like. Abortion can be done without justification if we want to be true to ourselves.

Abortion? that is so mean!!! the baby's got nothing wrong why would some1 do that? that's a crime x a crime

Depends what the law says really. In Belgium is not a crime I think.

chrisd:

It's the way things are. We cannot change that. Racism or not, everyone does what's best for himself. But perhaps the best result comes when each one of us does the best for himself and others. We have to say that the decision upon which Abortion, Euthanasia etc are ok to do rests on our decision to make it legal, that's all. What I don't like is trying to use arguments to make it look nice. If some culture decides that it wants abortion before 10 weeks or 14, whatever, then it was her decision. But if you ask questions on a scientific aspect, one must expect an answer that one does not like. Abortion can be done without justification if we want to be true to ourselves.

I really don't understand the foundations of your position.
My arguments have nothing to do with making it look nice. The criterium of sentience allows one to make a clear cut decision about when one is killing a human being, a person, and when one is destroying a lump of cells. The ethical problem arises after sentience begins (as I said, most higher mammals have some sort of sentience). That's why I am personally against the US legislation regarding abortion. It's a free for all position.

Are we talking in the realm of philosophy or science here. If it is within science there is no clear cut division, we can never manage to have the answer. I thought you were for abortion. Maybe we are not understanding each other. In many aspect I am in agreement with your ideas but it's not that simple.

chrisd:

Are we talking in the realm of philosophy or science here. If it is within science there is no clear cut division, we can never manage to have the answer. I thought you were for abortion. Maybe we are not understanding each other. In many aspect I am in agreement with your ideas but it's not that simple.

I don't think anyone sis really [b]for [/b]abortion. I'm in favor of keeping abortion legal under specific conditions.
You're right, ethical problems can never be solved by science. Science can only inform you about the facts and prevent the debate from turning into an emotional contest.

You should always look at the interests of all parties involved. In case of a woman possibly undergoing an abortion these are:
* the woman
* society
* the fetus (if it reached personhood already)

Once a fetus is sentient, it is to be considered a person and in that case, abortion is killing a person. Only very serious circumstances could justify such an action (e.g. the life of the woman is in danger if she carries the fetus to term)

We cannot define scientifically what philosophically we call a person. For me ever though the baby is considered a person, if the woman most probably will die, a decision has to be made. A tough decision there. The right thing to do. Sometimes it is not easy to know what that is. Fully agree with you on that aspect.

I read what your situation was concerning that. One must choose. I firmly believe that your life partner takes precedence in such situation.

[i][/i][b][/b]blad abortion is a crime and must be stopped. even if the girl waz raped u still dont have a right to kill a human being. only God has the right to kill a human being. for those who dont believe in God check urself if u wld kill somethin so innocent juz cuz it cant talk and say dont kill me. if ur not allowed to kill a frikkin cat in the western world why wld u be allowed to kill somethin livin. somethin in ur image. what u think iz better killin a cat or a child

panthress:

[i][/i][b][/b]blad abortion is a crime and must be stopped. even if the girl waz raped u still don't have a right to kill a human being. only God has the right to kill a human being. for those who don't believe in God check yourself if u would kill somethin so innocent juz because it can't talk and say don't kill me. if your not allowed to kill a frikkin cat in the western world why would u be allowed to kill somethin livin. somethin in your image. what u think iz better killin a cat or a child

You must have thought very long and hard about that position, haven't you
A small friendly suggestion: read the previous entries in this thread.

nferyn:

You must have thought very long and hard about that position, haven't you
A small friendly suggestion: read the previous entries in this thread.

blad i juz came in 2day and i juz put my own tingz i aint got so much time to read 4 pages but when u right 4-7 page essay why i shld read it then holla at me . Peace lol

panthress:

blad i juz came in 2day and i juz put my own tingz i aint got so much time to read 4 pages but when u right 4-7 page essay why i shld read it then holla at me . Peace

Don't sweat it. It was a friendly advice anyway. There are good arguments pro and contra abortion. There is just not an absolute right or wrong on this issue. The exchange between myself and Vexxy (who unfortunately is no longer very active here) should enlighten you

The main question is what exactly is an abortion?
Is it the killing of a human being?
Is it [i]always [/i]the killing of a human being?
In the early stages of pregancy, you cannot really talk about the fetus being a human being. It has no senses and no capacity to feel pain, or anything for that matter. It is no more a human being that my right toe. Anyway, just read the exchange and you'll probably learn a few things (I have)

It cannot feel pain. We can say that too of person with certain types of disabilities or after an accident. We never understood when something becomes a person. Even the early signs of pregnancy we still can talk of human development. My opinion is that one should concentrate on the development of the brain, but we are far away from knowing when that really starts. I feel that abortion should be restricted to cases of serious medical problems rather than, one can do that whenever one wants, within 10 weeks or something.

nferyn:

Don't sweat it. It was a friendly advice anyway. There are good arguments pro and contra abortion. There is just not an absolute right or wrong on this issue. The exchange between myself and Vexxy (who unfortunately is no longer very active here) should enlighten you

The main question is what exactly is an abortion?
Is it the killing of a human being?
Is it [i]always [/i]the killing of a human being?
In the early stages of pregancy, you cannot really talk about the fetus being a human being. It has no senses and no capacity to feel pain, or anything for that matter. It is no more a human being that my right toe. Anyway, just read the exchange and you'll probably learn a few things (I have)

man i cant believe ur sooooooo. hmm whatz the word, even tho it doesnt feel no pain or shite cmon its something u kno deep down u, is like u. is prolly a spittin image of u, r u gonna be so cruel to kill somethin like you. itz juz like killin ur self. i dont really u wld kill urself cuz u dont like the way u look or somethin, then wld u wanna kill somethin in ur image. thatz what i hate abt the western world is puttin into pplz mind. the doc come say i no dey feel pain an u believ am so u go go kill ur abt to be pikin. u no dey shame man.
talk bak man

panthress:

man i can't believe your sooooooo. hmm whatz the word, even tho it doesnt feel no pain or shite cmon its something u kno deep down u, is like u. is prolly a spittin image of u, r u going to be so cruel to kill somethin like you.

I'm probably going to shock you, but an adult chimpanzee is much more like me or you than a 3 week old fetus. The fetus does not yet have a functioning nervous system. No feelings, no sensations, no functioning brain, just a lump of divinding cells, busy assembling a [i]potential [/i]human being.

panthress:

itz juz like killin your self. i don't really u would kill yourself because u don't like the way u look or somethin, then would u want to kill somethin in your image.

It even less something in my image than a patch of my skin.

panthress:

thatz what i hate about the western world is puttin into pplz mind. the doc come say i no dey feel pain an u believ am so u go go kill your about to be pikin. u no dey shame man.
talk bak man

This has nothing to do with the western world directly. It is some misconceived representation of humanity that was introduced in Africa by the missionaries. Now the Africans are coming back to rechristen Europe.... ironic, isn't it?

@ chrisd

Sentience is more than the capacity to feel pain. The ability to feel pain could be an indicator for sentience early in the pregnancy.

Anyway, go and read the debate at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=88699 you will certainly like it

NFREN DUDE U GOT NO CURE, GET OFF THE CHAIN GANG N REALLY THINK MAN, UR TELLIN ME UR GONNA KILL SOMETHIN 'DEVELOPIN' INTO A HUMAN BEING THAT IS GONNA HAVE A LIFE, PROBABLY BRING U JOY/MISERY. AND I THOUGHT I WAZ HEARTLESS

@ panthress
Use your brain instead of your gut to do the thinking
Am I killing a tree when I remove a germinated seed from the ground? Your statements don't make sense

@nferyn, ive been following your posts and i have great respect for you. Though i don't support abortion,  want to put in a few thoughts here(digressing) into the topic. I see your concise arguments on different threads and the way people 'moralistically' shout down on your good constructive arguments in the name of their 'righteousness'

From the way the nigerians on this forum talk it would make any sane person ask a few questions

The hundreds or even thousands of abortions that take place in nigeria on a daily basis, who is involved in it?

The gay people that i personally saw in nigeria, who were they?

Those that stole more than $600billion (if that money is taken from any european economy, the country would totally cease to exist) and dumped it into various private accounts in the west who really are they?

The political figures (who some of them have a monthly salary less than $1000) who make regular and instant donations of up to tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to greedy, thieving pastors all around the nation and get honorary titles and special blessings who are they, and who are these pastors.

In a country that has more than 97% reverencing God (by far the most religious country on earth, even more than saudi arabia and iran) why does the majority of public funds get stolen by these 'God fearing individuals"? Why can we not travel safely for even a minute on any of our nations roads? Who are the 419ners.

In the most moral country on earth, why do we have the third higest number of HIV infections in the world? Why do so many pastors thieve from their faithful and even from their own compatriates. Who are those that use their family members to do rituals 4 money?

The list is so much but 4 these and any other i have one answer

THESE MUST BE THE EVIL AND SATANIC EUROPEANS WHO WALK ABOUT IN A BLACK MAN'S SKIN AND ARE GOING ABOUT PRETENDING TO BE NIGERIANS. iT MUST BE THE 'UNGODLY EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS. IN FACT IT IS ANYBODY BUT NIGERIANS. NIGERIANS ARE ALL SO HOLY THEY CANT BE THE ONES.

WHO IS DECIEVING WHO

sage:

[SNIP]
THESE MUST BE THE EVIL AND SATANIC EUROPEANS WHO WALK ABOUT IN A BLACK MAN'S SKIN AND ARE GOING ABOUT PRETENDING TO BE NIGERIANS. iT MUST BE THE 'UNGODLY EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS. IN FACT IT IS ANYBODY BUT NIGERIANS. NIGERIANS ARE ALL SO HOLY THEY CANT BE THE ONES.

WHO IS DECIEVING WHO

I must confess... Finally my devious plan has been uncovered.... Finally someone has popped up with the wit and foresight to see through my satanic intentions...
at last my witchcraft has been exposed ... I am who I am