............

Yes we are saved by God because of our faith,
and faith isn't just believing, as so many verses point out,
faith is doing what God says to do,
if we don't do as God instructs us in the bible,
live the way He said to,
then we have a dead faith, we say we believe and it ends there.

For me these changes are slow, we are not to be self righteous,
God does the works in us over time,
we mainly have to be willing to do right, to allow God to work in us.

You don't have to go out there and preach the Gospel if you are not good at that,
you don't have to feed the world if you are poor, we have diffrent gifts,
I'm not even sure what mine is.
We do the little that we can and we don't do the wrong things that we used to do.
sometimes we will sin, and then we pray to God to forgive us, and He does.

johnw74:
Yes we are saved by God because of our faith,
and faith isn't just believing, as so many verses point out,
faith is doing what God says to do,
if we don't do as God instructs us in the bible,
live the way He said to,
then we have a dead faith, we say we believe and it ends there.

For me these changes are slow, we are not to be self righteous,
God does the works in us over time,
we mainly have to be willing to do right, to allow God to work in us.

You don't have to go out there and preach the Gospel if you are not good at that,
you don't have to feed the world if you are poor, we have diffrent gifts,
I'm not even sure what mine is.
We do the little that we can and we don't do the wrong things that we used to do.
sometimes we will sin, and then we pray to God to forgive us, and He does.

Thanks for the comment.
You made sense.

VLadipo:


Thanks for the comment.
You made sense.

When James made the statement 'Faith without work is dead' what he simply said is:
Faith (i.e. Biblical truth, the body of what is believed, creed) if it is not put into application(works) is barren (produces nothing, shows no results - dead).

The 'faith' James is talking about when he talks about faith without works being dead is not 'faith' as that of 'trust' in Christ for salvation.

James in his epistle is simply saying then that a Christian who knows scriptures but refuses to put it into practice or apply it, will be unfruitful and also putting himself up for God's discipline which could terminate his life in death.

Again a clear understanding of James 2:17 - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. " - is this:
'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person knows or creed/spiritual principles that a person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it is not applied: Not put into practice), is dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains stagnant, is useless), being by itself'

Therefore a Christian who does not apply what he knows from scriptures to his day to day life lives an unproductive spiritual life.

Faith in Jesus Christ is belief in Jesus Christ,
if we add good works (like becoming a better person) to that faith - belief,
then we have a living faith.

And God brings us to those good works, unless we wan't to remain the same.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

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johnw74:

Faith in Jesus Christ is belief in Jesus Christ,
if we add good works (like becoming a better person) to that faith - belief,
then we have a living faith.

And God brings us to those good works, unless we wan't to remain the same.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

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James' emphasis is not salvation. 
The word 'faith' in James 2:17 (cf. 2:14) is not as in that of trust in Christ for salvation. 
The Greek word for 'faith' does not always mean "trust". It also refers to biblical truth i.e. the information conveyed by God's Word. 

James' emphasis is on "the word implanted" (James 1:21) and "doers of the word" (James 1:22). 
He wants his Christian audience to whom he writes to: "....... be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." v. 22

This is his thought in these two chapters and elsewhere. Doers and not hearers alone. In other words, don't just know the Word of God, put it into practical expressions. 

Abraham was not 'SAVED' when he offered up Isaac on the altar. He was already saved and declared 'righteous' LONG BEFORE Isaac's birth (Genesis 15:6, cf. Romans 4:9-10). It was even before he (Abraham) was circumcised!

So Abraham was already saved before James' reference to this incident involving Isaac. Therefore the 'justification' for Abraham that James refers to is not justification for salvation but that of justification by works for REWARD. 

James' focus then is on experiential justification by works for reward. He is exhorting believers to apply what they know of God's Word in their day to day Christian living so as not to live unproductive Christian lives. 

trustman:


Again a clear understanding of James 2:17 - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. " - is this:
'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person knows or creed/spiritual principles that a person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it is not applied: Not put into practice), is dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains stagnant, is useless), being by itself'

So you are saying persons can have a useless and dead faith and still be saved.


verse 19 shows that if you have faith without works then your faith - belief is no diffrent to the devils.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

We are saved by grace through faith, and Works justifies or proves our faith.

I have seen one well known and well followed Bible teacher online say that once we are saved we can do anything, live a life of sin, ignore the Holy Spirit etc. and still remain saved.

To me that is a lot of rot.

trustman:
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James' emphasis is not salvation. 
The word 'faith' in James 2:17 (cf. 2:14) is not as in that of trust in Christ for salvation. 
The Greek word for 'faith' does not always mean "trust". It also refers to biblical truth i.e. the information conveyed by God's Word. 

Jas 2:17 EvenG2532 soG3779 faith,G4102 ifG1437 it hathG2192 notG3361 works,G2041 isG2076 dead,G3498 being alone.G2596 G1438

faith
G4102

πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Total KJV occurrences: 244

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johnw74:



Jas 2:17 EvenG2532 soG3779 faith,G4102 ifG1437 it hathG2192 notG3361 works,G2041 isG2076 dead,G3498 being alone.G2596 G1438

faith
G4102

πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Total KJV occurrences: 244

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First, like you've stated the Greek word 'Pistis' has multiple meanings. Just like the English word 'lead' can mean "to guide" / "to direct" or also "a heavy metallic element". 
We need then to pay attention to words and their context. We need to understand the 'faith' James is referring to in any portion of his epistle. 

To clarify from two other epistle writers - Paul & Jude: 
In 1 Timothy 4:1when Paul writes "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," the 'departing from the faith' here refers to abandoning sound biblical truth in exchange for falsehood. Not reference to 'faith' as in 'trust'. 
In Jude 1:3 where he writes "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." the 'faith' we are to contend for is biblical truth not 'faith' as in 'trust'. 

James also used the word 'faith' in some instances to mean 'biblical truth' as well as in other cases to mean 'trust/confidence'(e.g. James 2:1). 

So the context matters, and in saying this we need to 'see' in the entire book of James what the superstructure is all about. Failing to do this is to misinterpret James. 

The issue therefore is first to CLEARLY understand James, then application will become easier. Picking one verse here and there without reference to James' CORE message will only blur understanding of his entire thrust. 

James' whole epistle is about biblical truth and it's application! Look at James 1:21-22, 2:1-26, 3:13ff, 4:17, 5:19-20. 

That is why his reference to Abraham is key because he (Abraham) was already saved before the incident James cited. Therefore the 'justification' for Abraham that James refers to cannot be justification for salvation but that of justification by works for REWARD. 

James is charging believers to apply what they know of God's Word in their day to day Christian living so as not to live unproductive Christian lives.

trustman:


To clarify from two other epistle writers - Paul & Jude: 
In 1 Timothy 4:1when Paul writes "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," the 'departing from the faith' here refers to abandoning sound biblical truth in exchange for falsehood. Not reference to 'faith' as in 'trust'.

 I see, devoting themselves to deceitful spirits doesn't refer to them departing from faith in Jesus.

In Jude 1:3 where he writes "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." the 'faith' we are to contend for is biblical truth not 'faith' as in 'trust'. 

Our common salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ,
not by our bibical knowledge.

That is why his reference to Abraham is key because he (Abraham) was already saved before the incident James cited. Therefore the 'justification' for Abraham that James refers to cannot be justification for salvation but that of justification by works for REWARD.

 

All the saved are foreknown by God,
He considers them righteous when they first come to faith in Christ,
and He then justifies their faith, as in Abraham.
Faith without works is dead.

johnw74:


 I see, devoting themselves to deceitful spirits doesn't refer to them departing from faith in Jesus.



Our common salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ,
not by our bibical knowledge.

 

All the saved are foreknown by God,
He considers them righteous when they first come to faith in Christ,
and He then justifies their faith, as in Abraham.
Faith without works is dead.

A person is justified for salvation at the point he expresses faith alone in Christ alone - Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Notice this verse says 'justified by FAITH'.

The justification by works James talks about must therefore be different from justification by faith of the above verse. God does not wait for us to express works before he declares us justified.

Again, James' emphasis is on not just being 'hearers' but but on being 'doers' as well ( i.e. Those who apply what they hear or know).

Knowing the word of God and not applying it is useless ( of no benefit) - "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:20). Notice that the word used here is 'useless' and in other places 'dead'.

Always, the basis of man's acceptance before God is NEVER man's works BUT the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

trustman:


To clarify from two other epistle writers - Paul & Jude: 
In 1 Timothy 4:1when Paul writes "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," the 'departing from the faith' here refers to abandoning sound biblical truth in exchange for falsehood. Not reference to 'faith' as in 'trust'.

To say that abandoning sound Biblical truth for falsehood is not departing from the faith of Jesus is ridiculous.

trustman:


A person is justified for salvation at the point he expresses faith alone in Christ alone - Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Notice this verse says 'justified by FAITH'.

Yes I noticed it said justified by faith and not justified by a dead faith.

Always, the basis of man's acceptance before God is NEVER man's works BUT the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

Well you got that sentence right, but no one here said diffrently.

Again, James' emphasis is on not just being 'hearers' but but on being 'doers' as well ( i.e. Those who apply what they hear or know).

Knowing the word of God and not applying it is useless ( of no benefit) - "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:20). Notice that the word used here is 'useless' and in other places 'dead'.

Jas_1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The devils have faith, but it is without God's works, therefor a dead faith,
your faith without works is the same faith as the devils have,
are the devils saved?
I will answer it, NO,
and neither are you, if God is not working in you.

You are all over the place to try and support your position.
The faith talked about in verse 20 is belief in God, verse 19.
You say it is faith from being a doer and not just a hearer of the word,
you use scripture wrongly to try and make your case,
I won't reply to you again in this thread.

The book of James has been a difficult one for Bible scholars which includes all believers who have taken time to study it. Skimming through it will therefore not bring out its gem. 

Many over the centuries have fought over apparent (but not real) contradictions between James and Paul. However a careful study shows that James' epistle, written before Paul wrote his own, is in harmony with Paul's. There are no contradictions in God's word when properly understood. God is not the author of confusion. 

For example, when James talks of faith being 'useless' it is similar to Paul's reference to being "NOTHING" if he has faith to do the miraculous but does not demonstrate agape love - " if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2). He is nothing or useless does not amount to being unsaved or an inanimate object. The emphasis is on the need for practical application of what is known of God to everyday living. 

James' emphasis on practical demonstration of the Christian life is unmistakable throughout his epistle
- " If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?" - or in other words, 'of what USE is that' (James 2:16). Earlier in chapter one he had talked on the issue of not being 'hearer alone' but 'doer' as well. He gave example of what he stated as "Pure and undefiled religion (i.e. Spiritual life) as practical demonstration - James 1:27. He pointed out other areas that needed practical application of God's word. 

He talked about cheating, defrauding and withholding the poor man's wage and other issues requiring the practical living out of the spiritual life the Christian possesses. 

To have a better understanding of the book of James then, first the thrust of the entire book needs to be borne in mind and secondly the interpretation of a word or phrase may more often than not require a consideration of the entire chapter where that word occurred. 

Failing to see the link between the five chapters of the book of James and its dominating imperative of learning and applying biblical truth is to misinterpret James. 

trustman:
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A person is justified for salvation at the point he expresses faith alone in Christ alone - Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Notice this verse says 'justified by FAITH'.

The justification by works James talks about must therefore be different from justification by faith of the above verse. God does not wait for us to express works before he declares us justified.

Again, James' emphasis is on not just being 'hearers' but but on being 'doers' as well ( i.e. Those who apply what they hear or know).

Knowing the word of God and not applying it is useless ( of no benefit) - "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:20). Notice that the word used here is 'useless' and in other places 'dead'.

Always, the basis of man's acceptance before God is NEVER man's works BUT the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

perfect explanantion sir.