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Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) - Religion - Nairaland

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Did Jesus Die for Our Sin? Which Sin? Ifeann Should Please Come In / Satan Or Sin,which Is Greater? / Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) (2) (3) (4)

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Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 8:40am On Sep 06, 2006
DID JESUS DIE FOR OUR SIN?

WAS MAN BORN A SINNER?

Salam to my muslim brothers and sisters . May Almighty Allah continue to guide us in Islam as we spread the true message and the truth which is Islam and may HE never put any burden that will be too much for our faith.

While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.
The muslim’s Holy Quran records only the doing of sin to the doer of sin in:
Quran 74v38: every soul will be held in pledge for (all) its deed
Quran 17v15: whosoever choose to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good, and whoever goes astray, did to his own hurt, and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden. Wherever, we would never punish (any community for the wrong they may do) until we have sent an apostle to give warning.
Quran 4v111: and if one sins, he earns it against his soul for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.


On the other hand, the bible came with the notion of original sin that “Jesus has redeemed the world by sacrificing his life to cancel the sin of mankind” that, that original sin was the sin inherited from Adam and Eve through birth!

The bible says concerning the inherited sinfulness of man as follows:
Romans 3v23: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.


The sinfulness of man is thus made manifested in these verses and some unmentioned one. This doctrine is not accidental. The sinfulness of man, according to the bible, is that man is a perpetual sinner, born into sin, reared and nurtured as a sinner because in
Job 25v4: how can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?


It therefore implies that, as long as man continue to be someone born of a woman, he cannot be clean! Even if he does all kind of righteous deeds until his death, he will remain unclean. This will also be applicable even if he accepted Jesus as his saviour! Why? Cos he would remain someone born of a woman and even though he became born again! The reason is not far-fetched, the bible says in:

Isaiah 64v6: we are all as an unclean thing, and our righteousness are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This inherited sinfulness of man was nurtured from the idea that Adam’s sin was later inherited by all men in:
Romans 5v12: wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.


[b]The doctrine of man’s inherited sinfulness can be said, without slightest doubt, a doctrine never preached by the earlier biblical prophet but an idea of some later biblical characters (eg Paul). They at the same time, contradicted themselves on what they have raised somewhere else in the same bible. The two following quotations will easily disprove that, men are sinners or that man inherited sin from his parent.
Ezekiel 18v20: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son, the righteous shall be upon himself. OR
Romans 14v12: so then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
It therefore implies that the idea “none is righteous no, not one (Roman 3v9-12) is a fabrication, a naked fantastic lies, that is propagated with ignorance and fantasy. The following passages shows that some people are righteous and never born with any inheritable sin.
Mark 6v20: herod feared John knowing that he was a righteous and holy man.
Daniel 6v4: Daniel was faithful, no error or fault was found on him.
Luke 1v16: Zechariah and his wife were both righteous.
1st Samuel 12v3-5: Samuel never oppressed…he is free from all faults.
Mathew 1v19: Joseph was a just man
Luke 2v25: simeon was devout and righteous one etc[/b]

If we hold the word “how then can men be righteous before God? How can one who is born of a woman be clean (job 25v4) etc, to be true, then the passage will create more problem, cos one Jesus is born from a woman, then Jesus could not be clean either judging from that assertion.

Two, if Jesus is born by a woman, then he would be said to have inherited the original sin from his mother.

Three, if the word “ all have sinned” be taken to its full length, Jesus would be included among the “all” cos he is born of a woman.

However, in all manner of consideration, if the original sin is inherited and children are born into sin, Jesus would not have awarded “innocence” and “pure” state to them, neither would he have said in,

Mathew 18v3: and said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdon of heaven. OR
Mark 10v15: verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter heaven.

If all of us are born sinner because of Adam’s sin, then it portrayed God as one inflicting the punishment of a criminal to one who is not. This is equal to injustice. But our God is not unjust as in

Deuteronomy 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children be put to death for the father’s, every man shall be put to death for his own sin. OR


1st Corinthians 3v8: how he that planted and he that watered are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his labour.

However, this doctrine of Blood Atonement created by the church, three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth contradicts the bible as in the above passages.

NOW CHRISTIANS ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

2. Can a man allow himself to face firing squad for a sin he has never committed?

3. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

4. By raising the notion that men are born sinners, Christianity as a religion has made mockery of God’s love, forgiving capacity, forbearance in accepting our repentance and all out-let for the redemption of mankind through his mercy.

5. If men are born sinners, the coming of Jesus at the end of the world to die for the sins of men is equally stupefying.

6. If we could think over this statement very well, one could ask the protagonist of this doctrine, which kind of God is that who, cos of a sin of two people, decided to condemn the entire humanity for the sin they never participated in nor knowing anything about?

7. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?

It is either we accept this original sin as truth and agreed that bible is telling lie or agree with us that none inherited any sins so that bible would be free from fault.

PROOF OF THIS ASSERTION

Some of those that wrote the bible made us conclude on the notion that Christ actually died for the sin of mankind. The few quotation that they base their arguments and proof on are listed below:
1st John 4v10, 1st john 1v7, john 1v29, roman 5v8, 1st peter 3v18 etc.


all the chapters and verses above came from the bible writers and we cannot conclude on wht the writer wrote alone cos jesus said in
Mathew 10v24: the disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.


The Christian protagonist says “ jesus died for our sins” but we ask, which sin? He replied , “Adam and Eve committed a mortal sin, and God’s anger was kindled agains them. And unless, Jesus should die for that sin by his own blood sacrifice on the cross, the sin cannot be forgiven!

Now consider the word carefully< somebody who is just is made to die for the unjust. What kind of injustice is that? One would start to ask. Supposing it is true that jesus die for the sin of mankind,

[b]1. Why did God not send him immediately after the sin of Adam was committed?
2. for what purpose did he intend to delay the crucifixion till some thousand years after the event?
3. however, if jesus actually came to die for our sins and that salvation only lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preach repentance in Mathew 4v17: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand?
4. if all person are under the stain of original sin as the Christian protagonist asserts, children are exempted by jesus because they are pure and inherited nothing as in Mathew 18v3-6; verily I say unto you, except ye be converted as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of God……, also in mark 10v14-15: ………. Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God

if any one born of a woman cannot be clean (job 15v4) and that “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (roman 3v27) or that “none is righteous” (roman 3v10), but if jesus was born by mary and if Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became transgressor (1st timothy 2v14) then mary would be said to be unclean, unrighteous and have inherited the original sin from his predecessor and at last it would have been said that she would have be said to have transmitted the sin to jesus! So it is either there is no inherited sin or that jesus also inherited sin since he was born of a woman.

1. To put the argument further, is there in any old prophesies the idea of inherited sin or where it was mentioned that jesus will come and die for sin or where jesus mention in his ministry that in respect of the sin of Adam and Eve, had come to rid the earth of its nuisance and has eventually come to die for that sin.
2. the Christian also proof that jesus is Gid, we will ask, does God punish himself before he can forgive a sin done against him?
3. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were severely put under curse, the bible when quoting the judgment of God passed on Adam and Eve respectively goes as follows:
Genesis 3v14-19: and the lord said unto the serpent, because thou had done this, thou art cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field, upon thy belly shall thou go and dust shall thou eat all the days of thy life………and unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your pain in child bearing, in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you, and to Adam he said, because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground cuz of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you and you shall the plant of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground………
Now from the judgment passed, it is observed that women are still labouring in pain during child bearing and men is still finding it tough to get their daily sustenance, but jesus died for the sin. How come the cursed has not been lifted since he came to die for the sin and cursed was placed. If he actually died for the sin, then there should have been any problem in those areas above. Explain pls.
4. if Jesus himself had the notion of dying for the sin of man, why did he plead this way to God as in Mathew 26v38-39:…, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death……….father, if it be possible, let this cup (death pass from me)?
5. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death as in john 11v53-54: then from that day forth, they took counsel together for to put him (jesus0 to death. Jesus thereafter walked no more openly among the jews…….
6. if he had prepared to die for the sins of man, why was Judas Iscariot named traitor?
7. why do we accuse pilate as the announcer of his sentence?
8. why do we accuse jews for handling him to do what he has come to do(death)?

Here is an elucidation, Adam and Eve committed sin, their grandson who is not aware of the sin was castigated despite the scripture advise in Deut 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the sin of their fathers……, also in 2nd Chronicles 25v4: the father shall not be put to death for the children, or the children for the father……… also in Jeremiah 31v29-30: …………….everyone shall die for his own sin . see also Ezekiel 18v20-22: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not die for the iniquity of the father nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son……………, [/b]

The above goes with illustration that:

9. if somebody has malaria and some treatment was prescribed, can the father take the treatment on behalf of the sick child?
10. or can a pastor be allowed to face a firing squad or be executed instead of a gangster of notorious armed robbers who actually committed the crime?


WAY OUT (watch out for the origin of sin, son of God, crucifixion, contradictions, who wrote old testament, who is paul, who wrote the four books, Mathew, mark, Luke and john etc)

Based on the above, God does not need any blood sacrifice before he can forgive sins of man as in
Hosea 6v6:for I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice…,
Isaiah 55v7: let the wicked forsake his way…,
2nd chronicles 7v14: if my people which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face ad turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sins.


Here there is no place where there is mentioned of blood sacrifice , God desired mercy but was input by Pauline Christianity (read gospel of barnabas, he saw jesus during his lifetime), unlike paul that didn’t see jesus but act contrary to his teaching. (coming soon). Jesus did not even mention any blood anywhere but also this paul who lied that he saw Jesus! Jesus during his lifetime preached oneness of God and how merciful and forgiven God is if only u can do away with your sin and not blood anywhere.Also see the Quran
Quran 39v53-54: say o my servants who have sinned against their souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins, verily, He is most forgiving, most merciful and turn to your Lord and submit yourselves to him before there comes unto you the punishment, for then you shall not be helped and follow the best teaching that has been revealed to you from your Lord, before the punishment comes upon you suddenly when you perceive not.
Note; he forgives all sins except polytheists like Christians, three in one God 1+1+1=3

Please answer all the questions correctly and no use of vulgar language please. Know the truth and it shall set you free. Islam is the only religion that will be accepted. All other religions are named after their founders meaning its manmade, but islam stands out. Be wise today, accept islam. Even Jesus was a muslim and so also his disciples. So also Adam, Noah, Abraham, jesus and the zeal of them all Mohammed (SAW). Christians pls have a look at it, is it possible for God to send prophets with different religions? And he is not of confusion as in the book of Isaiah
[b]Quran 2v136: say (o muslims) we believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Yaqub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat (the offspring of the twelve sons of Yaqub (Jacob) and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) and that which has been given to the prophets frm their Lord, we make no distinction between any of them and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).
Quran 2v140; or you say that Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Yaqub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat (the offspring of the twelve sons of Yaqub (Jacob) were jews or Christians? Say, ‘Do you know better or Allah does (know better … that they all were muslims) and who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony (to believe in prophet Muhammad (saw) when he comes as t is written in their books (the scriptures), he has from Allah? And He is not unaware of what you do.
Quran 3v19: truly the religion with Allah is islam. Those who were given the scripture (jews and Christians) did not differ except ought of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations etc) of Allah, then surely, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Quran 3v70: o people of the scripture (jews and Christians), why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah (the verses about Muhammad (saw), present in the Taurat (taorah) and the Injeel (Gospel) while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)
Quran 3v71: o people of the scripture, why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know.
Quran 2v23: and if you (arab pagans, jews, Christians) are in doubt concerning that whch we have sent down (the Holy Quran) to our slave Muhammad (saw), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witness (supporters and helpers) besides Allah if you are truthful.
Quran 2v109: many of the people of the scripture (jews and Christians) wish that they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth (that Muhammad saw is Alah’s messenger) has become manifest uto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command. Verily Allah is able to do all things.[/b]

Also which church did jesus belong to during his time, is it the catholic that worship Mary and also have fathers and mothers. Is there any place that God says you should not marry but this was laid by paul when they went to meet him in the book of Corinthians (2nd) an he advised that it will be better for them to remain like him. Now how will it looks like if everybody becomes father and mother. Or does he belongs to the white garments, one C & S that wears shoes and the other Celestials that doesn’t. or the deeper life that their pastor compels them to be using King james vesion cos he contains some things not in other bibles like the raptures. Or the Oyakhilomes and Synoagogue blinding people with so called miracles. Hey see a scenario, I attended Christ embassy (oyakhilome) church when I haven’t seen the light. When it was time for miracle, he brought two men, one blind from birth, the other deaf and dumb from birth. He then healed the two, the first (blind) was afterwards shown different colours and funny enough, he knew red colour from white, black from green. Now how did a blind knew what red, green, white, brown etc clour. How was he able to differentiate? Also the second deaf and dumb was shown fingers and at the raising of each fingers for counting, he counted one , two, three up to five. Now can any sincere Christian tell me, who teached him the alphabets or was it the holy spirit! (God forbid).
Also have u notice that at the same Christ embassy, nearly all of them speak in tongue, even the robbers, fonicators, etc.

Also why do we have many versions of bible in which for more than 1400 years, its still the same.

I remembered when God used me to touch the live of a man and he reverted back to islam, having explained everything to him, there was a particular verse from the Holy Quran that Allah used for him and I believe if you read it and you are sincere with yourself, you will surely learn from it except those destined to be in hell or if u don’t now the religion to go for. The verse is
Quran 30v30: so set your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic monotheism) with which he has created mankind. No change, that is the straight religion. But most men do not know.

The above verse means that if you are in doubt of the true religion, seek for the religion that it has never seen changes and is in line with the creation of living things. For example, the dog we have in Africa has four legs like the one in Europe or Asia, the donkey has the same feautures all over the world. Also human have the same creation irrespective of the colour height skin etc. so any religion that is like that in which they have everything in common is the religion of God. The reason for being the right religion and religion of nature is that despite your colour, race, tribe, muslim is a muslim, we are being binded by the articles of faith (5), we recited the same surahs and pray the same number of rakats for the same time of prayer. We face the same direction, we fast the same month, etc. now does this applies to Christianity and what is that. (jesus’ blood sacrifice huh? Lol)
Now take this again, in Islam, we have five times compulsory daily prayers in which if you miss like the 2pm prayer, u wont be able to pray the one for 4pm, but u will first pray the one of 2pm before the 4pm, does this applies to Christians too?
Or service starts by 10pm and you came to church by 1pm, will you pay-back all the clappings, dancings you have missed? Will you ask those there that pls how many is the clap I missed and how many dance they have danced?

Truth stands clear from falsehood and no compulsion in religion. Also call people to the way of the lord with wisdom, knowledge and good preaching.

And it is not until you put the whole convincing things at the front of someone before he can accept the truth, it depends on those that God wants to cos the day he created hell, he vouched that he will put people there and also when he created heaven he vouched he will put people there. It will be wise for you today to join the religion of the wise and be at safe hands. Hell and heaven are real. Now let me ask you Christians, what does you have in common as in
1. Can a c & s worship with foursquare with his garment on/ buy in islam you can worship anywhere regardless of your society.
2. Why do some wear shoes to church as opposed to cherubim and seraphim (they have their proof as in the book of moses) where God commanded Moses to take off his shoes cos he’s on holy ground.
3. Why do we have king james version, holy bible, revised standard version, English version, the good news, etc and each contradicting each other.


WATCH OUT FOR THE ORIGIN OF SIN, SON OF GOD, CRUCIFIXION, CONTRADICTIONS, WHO WROTE OLD TESTAMENT, WHO IS PAUL, WHO WROTE THE FOUR BOOKS, MATHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN, IS JESUS GOD ETC)

So answer those questions one after the other which are copied here

[b]NOW CHRISTIANS ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

2. Can a man allow himself to face firing squad for a sin he has never committed?

3. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

4. By raising the notion that men are born sinners, Christianity as a religion has made mockery of God’s love, forgiving capacity, forbearance in accepting our repentance and all out-let for the redemption of mankind through his mercy.

5. If men are born sinners, the coming of Jesus at the end of the world to die for the sins of men is equally stupefying.

6. If we could think over this statement very well, one could ask the protagonist of this doctrine, which kind of God is that who, cos of a sin of two people, decided to condemn the entire humanity for the sin they never participated in nor knowing anything about?

8. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?

Now consider the word carefully< somebody who is just is made to die for the unjust. What kind of injustice is that? One would start to ask. Supposing it is true that jesus die for the sin of mankind,

5. Why did God not send him immediately after the sin of Adam was committed?
6. for what purpose did he intend to delay the crucifixion till some thousand years after the event?
7. however, if jesus actually came to die for our sins and that salvation only lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preach repentance in Mathew 4v17: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand?
8. if all person are under the stain of original sin as the Christian protagonist asserts, children are exempted by jesus because they are pure and inherited nothing as in Mathew 18v3-6; verily I say unto you, except ye be converted as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of God……, also in mark 10v14-15: ………. Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God

if any one born of a woman cannot be clean (job 15v4) and that “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (roman 3v27) or that “none is righteous” (roman 3v10), but if jesus was born by mary and if Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became transgressor (1st timothy 2v14) then mary would be said to be unclean, unrighteous and have inherited the original sin from his predecessor and at last it would have been said that she would have be said to have transmitted the sin to jesus! So it is either there is no inherited sin or that jesus also inherited sin since he was born of a woman.

11. To put the argument further, is there in any old prophesies the idea of inherited sin or where it was mentioned that jesus will come and die for sin or where jesus mention in his ministry that in respect of the sin of Adam and Eve, had come to rid the earth of its nuisance and has eventually come to die for that sin.
12. the Christian also proof that jesus is Gid, we will ask, does God punish himself before he can forgive a sin done against him?
13. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were severely put under curse, the bible when quoting the judgment of God passed on Adam and Eve respectively goes as follows:
Genesis 3v14-19: and the lord said unto the serpent, because thou had done this, thou art cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field, upon thy belly shall thou go and dust shall thou eat all the days of thy life………and unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your pain in child bearing, in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you, and to Adam he said, because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground cuz of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you and you shall the plant of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground………
Now from the judgment passed, it is observed that women are still labouring in pain during child bearing and men is still finding it tough to get their daily sustenance, but jesus died for the sin. How come the cursed has not been lifted since he came to die for the sin and cursed was placed. If he actually died for the sin, then there should have been any problem in those areas above. Explain pls.
14. if Jesus himself had the notion of dying for the sin of man, why did he plead this way to God as in Mathew 26v38-39:…, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death……….father, if it be possible, let this cup (death pass from me)?
15. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death as in john 11v53-54: then from that day forth, they took counsel together for to put him (jesus0 to death. Jesus thereafter walked no more openly among the jews…….
16. if he had prepared to die for the sins of man, why was Judas Iscariot named traitor?
17. why do we accuse pilate as the announcer of his sentence?
18. why do we accuse jews for handling him to do what he has come to do(death)?

Here is an elucidation, Adam and Eve committed sin, their grandson who is not aware of the sin was castigated despite the scripture advise in Deut 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the sin of their fathers……, also in 2nd Chronicles 25v4: the father shall not be put to death for the children, or the children for the father……… also in Jeremiah 31v29-30: …………….everyone shall die for his own sin . see also Ezekiel 18v20-22: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not die for the iniquity of the father nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son……………,

The above goes with illustration that:

19. if somebody has malaria and some treatment was prescribed, can the father take the treatment on behalf of the sick child?
20. or can a pastor be allowed to face a firing squad or be executed instead of a gangster of notorious armed robbers who actually committed the crime?[/b]
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by owo(m): 10:56am On Sep 06, 2006
All the answers are available if you commit to staying on this topic and not running away like others have been doing when they have realised that their views and statements do not add up.

I'm waiting for your words of commitment.

Thank you.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 12:27pm On Sep 06, 2006
@ Owo; I commit myself and I am sure there are Muslims waiting to read your proof. please only from the mouth of Jesus directly. From the revelation given to him by his Lord who sent him(AS). You must show it and none of the Paul and interpretations will be acceptable.

Let me help you because i want you to try very hard; What language was the revelations that came to Jesus, in other words, whats Jesus language. So please get me the revelation in that language. please get me a copy of it word for word. I read arabic, I am sure somebody will be able to read it , eben though, very purely. Ask your leaders and the scholars before you write anything. Please refrain from your own opinions and give us proofs. You must be willing to stay the course. Allow questions, please.

happy trails.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by firdaus4us: 1:07pm On Sep 06, 2006
Pls get answers to these also:
1)What is the religion of Jesus?
2)What is the religion of Abraham?
3) Why can't u be a Jew?
4)Is Old Testament in Book form when Jesus was on Earth?
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by KamaC(m): 1:12pm On Sep 06, 2006
Now what, things just keep getting interesting here, I also ask myself this questions but when i ask my pastor all he can tell is "DO WHAT U SEE OTHERS DOING WHETHER IT RIGHT OR WRONG U CAN'T TELL UNTILL THE DAY YOU DIE, THATS WHY WE ARE IN CHURCH" so if it later turn to be contradictive we have another hope to depends on, so can someone please explain this in details befor its too late, peaceout
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by firdaus4us: 2:00pm On Sep 06, 2006
Better Look before u leep! If u die as a Kaafir, no PARADISE FOR U!
Ask him: What is the hope?
Check:
http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/former.htm
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by KamaC(m): 2:06pm On Sep 06, 2006
Thanks Babs787 i can you have giving me some chances in life and have clear all my doubt, May the almighty ALLAh bless you and help all those that are bringing the truth to reality.
My thanks to you is: am going to be in my neighbour Mosque this coming friday to repent and embrace ISLAM as part of my life thanks
You can email me at: ousse_b@yahoo.com. Only BABS787
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by owo(m): 3:59pm On Sep 06, 2006
Thanks Olabowale for the commitment on your part.

Unfortunately I cannot do your bidding as regards the following

olabowale:

please only from the mouth of Jesus directly. From the revelation given to him by his Lord who sent him(AS). You must show it and none of the Paul and interpretations will be acceptable.



Because, according to
2 Timothy 3:16 : All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And according to
2 Peter 1: 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


I will rather take heed and obey the more sure word of prophecy which is the scripture which holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. That scripture says - ALL SCRIPTURE is given by the inspiration of God and IT IS PROFITABLE for correction and instruction.

Also, I will ask no human leader as you request because
1. John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
2. 1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I will therefore rather rely on the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost for his teaching which is truth and is not a lie.

Similarly, you will not receive any book, parchment or manuscript in Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin or any other “supposedly ancient “language from me because Jehovah, our God is omniscient and consequently,
Psalm 19:3
There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard

Also, on the day that Holy Spirit descended on the disciples, it is written ;
Acts 2: 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


If my God does not discriminate among languages and allows all humans to come to him in the language they understand best, then I cannot do otherwise.


On the other hand, as you have requested, questions are welcome at any time. I just pray and hope that it does not digress, substantially, from the main focus of this thread.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 7:45pm On Sep 06, 2006
salam to muslims and muslimah in this room especially to my brother in the like of olabowale and also my sister firdaus4us and also to those that i didnt mention their names. may Almighty continue to guide us and increase our knowledge, wisdom and understanding of islam.

also congrats and alhamdulilah to my brother that has just seen the truth and accepted the truth which is islam. am referring to my brother Kama-c with the email oussee_b@yahoo.com. ve mailed you. once again, i welcome you to the light. islam is a religion distinct from others which are manmade.

now to owo, its quite unfortunate that after seeing all i sent, u failed to address the questions but resorted to beating about the bush. as my brother olabowale said, bring your proof if you are truthful. pls dont bring anything said by paul cos he's the one that caused the problem christians are facing today. also dont bring hearsay but bring what jesus said himself.

also am still expecting m4mailk to defend those questions with proof from the bible.

ISLAM IS THE LIGHT, ACCEPT ISLAM TODAY, TOMORROW MAY BE TOO LATE


WATCH OUT FOR THE ORIGIN OF SIN, SON OF GOD, CRUCIFIXION, CONTRADICTIONS, WHO WROTE OLD TESTAMENT, WHO IS PAUL, WHO WROTE THE FOUR BOOKS, MATHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN, IS JESUS GOD, TRINITY ETC)
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 2:26pm On Sep 07, 2006
To all the Muslims; males and females alike, to the rest Nairaland, christians and atheist. Greetings.
To the Muslims, I offer my salaamualaykum, warrahmatullahi taAllah wabarakatuhu. Alhamdulillah, Subuhanallah, laa illaha illala, Allahu akbar. it is Allah alone who guides. I thank Allah, the Lord of the throne supreme, who gave guidance to our new brother in Islam. He, this brother is always our brother in mankind, now he has become our brother in the way of Al-Islam.

I ask Allah, the Almighty, who without Him, nothing is possible, to open His mercy for our other brothers and sisters, on nairaland, indeed in the nation of mankind. May they come flowing into Islam as it has been the case in the West among the indegenious, whites and black and other hues, both young and old among them, the female and male.

there will never be a true muslim anywhere on the surface of the earth who can disbelieve Jesus (AS). The believe of what is true about him amounts to true Islam; his birth, the miracles and ascendancy to the heavens, all of this is Islam.

Again, thank God who gives brother babs787, words that affect the earth and brother Kama_C the ears to hear it and the heart that softens and accepts guidance. May God Almighty bless all of us.

As long as one is alive, the door of the mercy of the Merciful is always open.

To all who can't answer in the proper context that is logical that is acceptable to the heart and mind, Allah (Chineke), (Olorun) is always alive, pure and complete, always. Go to Him directly. There is none but HE.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by owo(m): 6:30pm On Sep 07, 2006
You asked:
Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?

The answer:
1. Background
It is written
a. Leviticus 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Note the timeless truth – “the life of the flesh is in the blood”.

b. John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Note the incontrovertible truth – “God is Spirit”

c. Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Note that God (a spirit) breathed into him (Adam) and he became a living soul.

d. Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life


Note: the spirit of God made man while the breath of God gives life.

e. Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


Note: Every man has a spirit.

Therefore - man has a body created from dust by God (a spirit) and made alive by God’s breath. The life is carried or represented by his blood
- He has a spirit, created by God which receives understanding when inspired by God Almighty.
Adam’s sin (like every sin) did not only have physical consequences, the greater effect was on the spiritual side. Therefore,
i. Physically:- He lost the garden that was his home (Gen 3: 23) and was subjected death (Genesis 2:17- But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)
ii. Spiritually:- He lost his fellowship with God (remember God is spirit) and was consequently dead spiritually.(Gen 3: 24)
- Due to the broken link with God, he lost understanding, (Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.)
which is departing from evil.
iii. There is much more but the above will suffice for now.

When Adam procreated, he passed the life that was in him at that time to his offspring like every man does.

Physically: His genetic composition (the whole sum of his physical life) was passed on.
Spiritually: The dead spiritual connection to God was passed on –

Having lost understanding (the ability to depart from evil) getting it back was not going to come so cheap. And the devil had this in mind when orchestrating the fall of Adam.

It had affected his life both physically and spiritually. Therefore his children who inherit his blood (-his very life) also inherited the anomaly instigated by his sin.

2.You asked : Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance?

Repentance is what a man does while conversion is what God does. The scripture says
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Therfore sin is only blotted out when both sides of the deal is done. Man repents, and God converts and blots his sins out.
But God has said that he will not blot out sin unless there is a shedding of blood (a particular blood for that matter) –
Therefore God is not unjust in sending prophets to preach. Their preaching is to aid man to carry out his part of the deal – that is repentance. Far be it from God to be unjust.

3.You asked: How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed?

They must inherit it because they are offspring of fallen man- Adam. (Check the background above).
If a man is not an offspring of Adam, then he does not inherit the fallen nature. That is why the scripture unambiguosly states that all men are born under sin (ie under the nature that was passed on by Adam)
However there is a way out of it and any and every man can be redeemed. Now a man can choose to remain in Adam’s nature (under sin and its curse) or under a new nature (God has made a way)

Note: The inherited nature of “absence of understanding” – (that is the ability to depart from evil) directly implies that all men are under the influence and direction of sin as long as they have that nature.
You may ask – but if they have not yet commited any sin?
Then you need to see this
Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

God searches the heart and know the ways (intent/disposition route) of every man.
The very nature of Adam places in every man a disposition to think, and ultimately do evil because he has lost understanding (which is the ability to depart from evil).
You can carry out a check on your heart and see how this applies to you.

Therefore all of Adam’s offsprings do have his nature and this nature is one that lacks and ability to depart from evil – a sinful nature.

4. You asked: And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?

My dear, the forbidden tree was not the real problem, it was only the route or conduit to accomplishing the goal that Satan had in mind. It could have been anything, as long as those consequences were achieved then, Satan was happy and the nature of sin was implanted in Adam. The disobedience and its consequences were the problem This was then passed onto generations ahead of him


Your question (or set of questions) is due to a wrong understanding of what constitutes man, sin, the effects of sin and the mechanism of inheritance and transmission of the sinful nature. Jesus did not have that mis-understanding [John 2:25
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man
]. that is why he gave his life to redeem mankind from sin and all its consequenses

Next, I will take on your second question(as stated in the first posting of this thread) and any questions that may arise out of the answers stated above.

@babs787
You can look for other ways of resolving your problem with Paul. I cannot help you with that. However, its ridiculous that you see Paul as the source of problem in a creed to which you currently (by your admission) do not subscribe to.
I'm certain that you know the effects of mudslinging and that 'those who live in glass houses should not throw stones'. try to desist from it, its an ill wind that will not blow you any good
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 6:51pm On Sep 07, 2006
@Owo; Omashe oo. If i have a Dollar every time people go to the creation of God, instead of going directly to God, especially when that creation went to god and it is recorded; i would have become a trillionaire. i would have gone back to nigeria, began a renaissance of Africa from there.

Brother Owo, sorry, i had to use yoruba there to express myself. If you need to read a pure book, read the only one, Al Qur'an and then you will be alive.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 9:33pm On Sep 07, 2006
I will like to ask you to do me a favor?  Can you please quote from the Bible, where it is written that we all inherited Adam's sin?  This is what you have implied throughout your write-up and I will sure like to see the scriptures you refer to before I deem your accusation worth replying.

Also, can you tell me the relevance of the language that Jesus spoke?  Is Arabic the language spoken by God since the Koran was written down in arabic?  Of what importance is the language in spiritual matters?  What is the purpose and import of words and a language?  let's see how intelligent you are in answering this questions.  If you can't answer these simple secular questions, then you will never be able to compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 9:06pm On Sep 08, 2006
@TayoD; Thanks for your questions.
Please can you tell me what is the reason that you need Jesus to die for your sins. If you can tell me the answer and if you belief in Original sin. What is the original sin and what is the essence of Jesus 'death'.
When you give me the answers, then I will give you a very strong and direct reply.

Further, the relevance of the language of Jesus is that is the language which revelation came to him. Not in a strange language that neither he nor his people spoke.Have you or any Billions of Christian seen a Bible in that language. If this is no, then how are you certain that what you have is pure, exactly what was given to Jesus. Since you are not sure and coupled with the fact that the Bible is ever changing in text and structure and books, then you do not even know which version or copy or denomination that is correct. When I was in las vegas, a Mormon young men came to my home and they believed that the Bible they have is the truth and the rest is not. They even claimed an angel marooni appering with jesus to appoint/anoit Sam/ whoever their 'prophet ' is. I guess America needs its own prophet.

However, you will see from my entry above from the Qur'an, it is very clear and profound that it is stated that the Bible has been corrupted and yes it has remain corrupt. You have so many Bibles that I am tempted to ask "Will the real Bible, please stand up from the many versions and productions available from the time that Muhammad (AS) from the Qur'an made this declaration of the corruption.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 12:47am On Sep 09, 2006
@olabowale,

I provided the follwoing answers in response to your accusations about different Bibles on another thread, and you just chose to ignore it.  Here it is again for your perusal.

We do not have so many different Bibles.  Rather we have different translations of the same Bible.  May I ask you, how come you guys also have different Korans in the sense of YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL and SHAKIR just to name a few?  Arent you being hypocritical when you make such a statement?  The different translations are just what it is: translations.  The king James Bible for instance is almost anachronistic in its style of presentation because of the language.  We do not speak such English today, and it is only logical that other translations will be required.  Each translations has its style with respect to the language and that is only the difference.  All are translated from the same manuscripts but the style of delivery is just the only difference.  For instance, here are other translations of that same Matthew 5:18.  If you are honest, you will see that the message is the same, only the delivery is different.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (New Revised Standard Version)

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. (American Standard version)

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (New Internationsal Version)

I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.  (New Living Translation).

So tell me, isnt the message the same in all?  And while you are at that, please explain the difference in the Koranic translations by YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL and SHAKIR.

You people have claimed so much that the Bible is changed and I wonder, can you guys just provide us the real Bible?  I ask, at what point was it changed?  Where are the ones available before that time?  Obviously, Muhammad must have believed the Bible available at his time was authentic for him to have said in Surah 29.046
YUSUFALI: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.
SHAKIR: And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.


Maybe you should do a compare and contrast of different Bible passages as I did above and let us have the discrepancies you claim you notice.  Until then, you are just blowing hot air, and you need to sit down and do some thinking.

May I ask you what you mean by the original sin.  As I stated before, can you just provide the scriptures that talks about original sins and humans inheriting Adam's sins that you are professing here.  Or could this be another lie sold to your gullible self by those filthy clerics who do not know any better.  As Jesus said, "when the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" (my paraphrase). 

It is obvious that you lack the intellectual capacity to hold any train of thought and argument, and you only copy and paste all the misinformation that you are fed. 

I'm sure you will understand if I can't answer your question because it has no biblical basis.  As far as the Bible teaches, there is nohing like original and fake sins, neither does the Bible teaches that we inherited Adam's sins.  You are a sorely misguided fellow and I hope you will let your head and heart lead you ahead of your zeal.

You have still not told me what the purpose of words are. Why do you speak? Why do you talk to others? What would be yor intention when you are involved in a conversation with someone.

Also, you are yet to tell me if it is Arabic that the speak in Heaven. Was it Arabic that Angel Gabriel spoke to Mohammed? So is Arabic a better language than all others?
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 11:53am On Sep 09, 2006
@TayoD; Obviously, I need not rspond to you and your ilk any further. The only reason is that you all chosed to ignore any ounce of Reasonibg.

Your saying that I am unintelligent is not so important to me. Afterall, you are entitled to your opinion, but it may not be true.

I am not personally offended, except I believe that our contuing on this path of tit for tat is not in my line of objective.

I need people whose hearts are eager to absorb real KNOWLEDGE. Whenever you are ready, God willing, I will give you food for thought, none of this close-nindedness that has been exibited so far, even from person with specialized descipline.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 5:21pm On Sep 09, 2006
@olabowale,

Don't deceive yourself about being knowledgable. I have exposed your false knowledge in my response and you chose as usual to ignore it, because it does not follow your false train of thought.

Anyway, when you provide biblical quotes that says we inherited Adam's sins and that there is an Original sin in the Bible, then you will be worthy of some intelligent conversations.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 6:09pm On Sep 09, 2006
salam to my muslim brothers and sisters in Nairaland. and may continue to guide usand increase our knowledge.(AMIN), and also happy preparation for RAMADHAN, MAY it meet us in good health and sound of mind.

now to owo, its quite unfortunate andalsoobvious that uve been unable to answer the questions iasked. i didnt ask u about paul. usawall iasked you. be sincere with yourself, read it over again and answer those questions at the tail end.

also tayoD, r u trying to say there are no contradictions in the bible. and if they are what will you do, will you accept islam and shun falsehood. truth stands fromfalsehood.

watch our for my other write ups.

now to owo and tayoD, these are the questions again, happy reading and also be sincere and honest with yourselves

[b]NOW CHRISTIANS ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

2. Can a man allow himself to face firing squad for a sin he has never committed?

3. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

4. By raising the notion that men are born sinners, Christianity as a religion has made mockery of God’s love, forgiving capacity, forbearance in accepting our repentance and all out-let for the redemption of mankind through his mercy.

5. If men are born sinners, the coming of Jesus at the end of the world to die for the sins of men is equally stupefying.

6. If we could think over this statement very well, one could ask the protagonist of this doctrine, which kind of God is that who, because of a sin of two people, decided to condemn the entire humanity for the sin they never participated in nor knowing anything about?

7. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?

It is either we accept this original sin as truth and agreed that bible is telling lie or agree with us that none inherited any sins so that bible would be free from fault.

DID JESUS DIE FOR OUR SIN?

WAS MAN BORN A SINNER?

Salam to my muslim brothers and sisters . May Almighty Allah continue to guide us in Islam as we spread the true message and the truth which is Islam and may HE never put any burden that will be too much for our faith.

While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.
The muslim’s Holy Quran records only the doing of sin to the doer of sin in:
Quran 74v38: every soul will be held in pledge for (all) its deed
Quran 17v15: whosoever choose to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good, and whoever goes astray, did to his own hurt, and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden. Wherever, we would never punish (any community for the wrong they may do) until we have sent an apostle to give warning.
Quran 4v111: and if one sins, he earns it against his soul for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

On the other hand, the bible came with the notion of original sin that “Jesus has redeemed the world by sacrificing his life to cancel the sin of mankind” that, that original sin was the sin inherited from Adam and Eve through birth!

The bible says concerning the inherited sinfulness of man as follows:
Romans 3v23: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The sinfulness of man is thus made manifested in these verses and some unmentioned one. This doctrine is not accidental. The sinfulness of man, according to the bible, is that man is a perpetual sinner, born into sin, reared and nurtured as a sinner because in
Job 25v4: how can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

It therefore implies that, as long as man continue to be someone born of a woman, he cannot be clean! Even if he does all kind of righteous deeds until his death, he will remain unclean. This will also be applicable even if he accepted Jesus as his saviour! Why? Cos he would remain someone born of a woman and even though he became born again! The reason is not far-fetched, the bible says in:

Isaiah 64v6: we are all as an unclean thing, and our righteousness are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This inherited sinfulness of man was nurtured from the idea that Adam’s sin was later inherited by all men in:
Romans 5v12: wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

The doctrine of man’s inherited sinfulness can be said, without slightest doubt, a doctrine never preached by the earlier biblical prophet but an idea of some later biblical characters (eg Paul). They at the same time, contradicted themselves on what they have raised somewhere else in the same bible. The two following quotations will easily disprove that, men are sinners or that man inherited sin from his parent.
Ezekiel 18v20: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son, the righteous shall be upon himself. OR
Romans 14v12: so then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
It therefore implies that the idea “none is righteous no, not one (Roman 3v9-12) is a fabrication, a naked fantastic lies, that is propagated with ignorance and fantasy. The following passages shows that some people are righteous and never born with any inheritable sin.
Mark 6v20: herod feared John knowing that he was a righteous and holy man.
Daniel 6v4: Daniel was faithful, no error or fault was found on him.
Luke 1v16: Zechariah and his wife were both righteous.
1st Samuel 12v3-5: Samuel never oppressed…he is free from all faults.
Mathew 1v19: Joseph was a just man
Luke 2v25: simeon was devout and righteous one etc

If we hold the word “how then can men be righteous before God? How can one who is born of a woman be clean (job 25v4) etc, to be true, then the passage will create more problem, because one Jesus is born from a woman, then Jesus could not be clean either judging from that assertion.

Two, if Jesus is born by a woman, then he would be said to have inherited the original sin from his mother.

Three, if the word “ all have sinned” be taken to its full length, Jesus would be included among the “all” because he is born of a woman.

However, in all manner of consideration, if the original sin is inherited and children are born into sin, Jesus would not have awarded “innocence” and “pure” state to them, neither would he have said in,

Mathew 18v3: and said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdon of heaven. OR
Mark 10v15: verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter heaven.

If all of us are born sinner because of Adam’s sin, then it portrayed God as one inflicting the punishment of a criminal to one who is not. This is equal to injustice. But our God is not unjust as in

Deuteronomy 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children be put to death for the father’s, every man shall be put to death for his own sin. OR

1st Corinthians 3v8: how he that planted and he that watered are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his labour.

However, this doctrine of Blood Atonement created by the church, three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth contradicts the bible as in the above passages.

NOW CHRISTIANS ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

2. Can a man allow himself to face firing squad for a sin he has never committed?

3. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

4. By raising the notion that men are born sinners, Christianity as a religion has made mockery of God’s love, forgiving capacity, forbearance in accepting our repentance and all out-let for the redemption of mankind through his mercy.

5. If men are born sinners, the coming of Jesus at the end of the world to die for the sins of men is equally stupefying.

6. If we could think over this statement very well, one could ask the protagonist of this doctrine, which kind of God is that who, because of a sin of two people, decided to condemn the entire humanity for the sin they never participated in nor knowing anything about?

7. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?

It is either we accept this original sin as truth and agreed that bible is telling lie or agree with us that none inherited any sins so that bible would be free from fault.

PROOF OF THIS ASSERTION

Some of those that wrote the bible made us conclude on the notion that Christ actually died for the sin of mankind. The few quotation that they base their arguments and proof on are listed below:
1st John 4v10, 1st john 1v7, john 1v29, roman 5v8, 1st peter 3v18 etc.

all the chapters and verses above came from the bible writers and we cannot conclude on wht the writer wrote alone because jesus said in
Mathew 10v24: the disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

The Christian protagonist says “ jesus died for our sins” but we ask, which sin? He replied , “Adam and Eve committed a mortal sin, and God’s anger was kindled agains them. And unless, Jesus should die for that sin by his own blood sacrifice on the cross, the sin cannot be forgiven!

Now consider the word carefully< somebody who is just is made to die for the unjust. What kind of injustice is that? One would start to ask. Supposing it is true that jesus die for the sin of mankind,

8. Why did God not send him immediately after the sin of Adam was committed?
9. for what purpose did he intend to delay the crucifixion till some thousand years after the event?
10. however, if jesus actually came to die for our sins and that salvation only lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preach repentance in Mathew 4v17: repent for the kingdom of God is at hand?
11. if all person are under the stain of original sin as the Christian protagonist asserts, children are exempted by jesus because they are pure and inherited nothing as in Mathew 18v3-6; verily I say unto you, except ye be converted as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of God……, also in mark 10v14-15: ………. Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God

if any one born of a woman cannot be clean (job 15v4) and that “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (roman 3v27) or that “none is righteous” (roman 3v10), but if jesus was born by mary and if Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became transgressor (1st timothy 2v14) then mary would be said to be unclean, unrighteous and have inherited the original sin from his predecessor and at last it would have been said that she would have be said to have transmitted the sin to jesus! So it is either there is no inherited sin or that jesus also inherited sin since he was born of a woman.

12. To put the argument further, is there in any old prophesies the idea of inherited sin or where it was mentioned that jesus will come and die for sin or where jesus mention in his ministry that in respect of the sin of Adam and Eve, had come to rid the earth of its nuisance and has eventually come to die for that sin.
13. the Christian also proof that jesus is Gid, we will ask, does God punish himself before he can forgive a sin done against him?
14. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they were severely put under curse, the bible when quoting the judgment of God passed on Adam and Eve respectively goes as follows:
Genesis 3v14-19: and the lord said unto the serpent, because thou had done this, thou art cursed above all cattle and above every beast of the field, upon thy belly shall thou go and dust shall thou eat all the days of thy life………and unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your pain in child bearing, in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you, and to Adam he said, because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you and you shall the plant of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground………
Now from the judgment passed, it is observed that women are still labouring in pain during child bearing and men is still finding it tough to get their daily sustenance, but jesus died for the sin. How come the cursed has not been lifted since he came to die for the sin and cursed was placed. If he actually died for the sin, then there should have been any problem in those areas above. Explain please.
14. if Jesus himself had the notion of dying for the sin of man, why did he plead this way to God as in Mathew 26v38-39:…, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death……….father, if it be possible, let this cup (death pass from me)?
15. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death as in john 11v53-54: then from that day forth, they took counsel together for to put him (jesus0 to death. Jesus thereafter walked no more openly among the jews…….
16. if he had prepared to die for the sins of man, why was Judas Iscariot named traitor?
17. why do we accuse pilate as the announcer of his sentence?
18. why do we accuse jews for handling him to do what he has come to do(death)?

Here is an elucidation, Adam and Eve committed sin, their grandson who is not aware of the sin was castigated despite the scripture advise in Deut 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the sin of their fathers……, also in 2nd Chronicles 25v4: the father shall not be put to death for the children, or the children for the father……… also in Jeremiah 31v29-30: …………….everyone shall die for his own sin . see also Ezekiel 18v20-22: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not die for the iniquity of the father nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son……………,

The above goes with illustration that:

19. if somebody has malaria and some treatment was prescribed, can the father take the treatment on behalf of the sick child?
20. or can a pastor be allowed to face a firing squad or be executed instead of a gangster of notorious armed robbers who actually committed the crime?[/b]
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 6:21pm On Sep 09, 2006
tayoD. whycant u be sincere.do u call picktall quran and others contradictions. not at all cos they r saying same thing but phrase or language used maybe different. but what of bible in which a verse may say two people were there and another saying four people. what do u call that? are u claiming there are no discrepancies inthe bible. well, watch out for my other write ups. let me hear from you
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 10:35pm On Sep 09, 2006
@babs787,

You are the one that is insincere. Do you see any differences in the different translations I showed you? I have asked you to bring the biblical passages with such contradictions forward. You are just quoting all these "dem say, dem say". Bring forth your proofs and please let us know which translations you refer to in each case.

And for your information, there are study tools that show you the original Greek and Hebrew words and explain the different shades of meaning of those words. So you really are not making any sense at all.

The different translations are no different than the once provided for the Qu'ran, and both must be subject to the same rules of critism. Both must be condemned or upheld in their entirety
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 10:41pm On Sep 09, 2006
@babs787,

I will provide answers to your questions one at a time and expect your response on each as we go:
1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.
May I ask you where you got the teaching that countless men inherit a sin they have never commited? Is that the Koranic teaching, 'cos it sure isn't in the Bible. Please provide the biblical quotes to support this assertion then we can go on from there. Until such biblical basis are established, then I have no reason to provide you a response because I am here only to defend my faith which is based on the Bible.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 4:37am On Sep 10, 2006
@TayoD and all;The fourth and last paragraph of a response to Reverend on a topic: The concept of the Original sin was Developed by saint paul not God.

TayoD made this entry on May 1, 2006. It was logged in at 4;58pm. I hereby quote TayoD's stated paragraph;

As pointed out, the Original Sin has nothing to do with Sex. It is the Sin Nature> I know you have no clue what that is all about.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, this is the same tayoD who has the strenght to ask me yesterday , Friday, September 8, 2006, that where in the Bible is Original sin mentioned.

My question to tayoD is this; If it is not in the Bible and if the Christians do not tell people that it does exist, then tell me where do you learn about it that you enter it as quoted above.

You may need to rethink your understanding, rather than get so roused up that you are not even following any logic.

For sure, Islam does not teach original sin. Every one is the Architect of his/her own destiny; true belief and worship and doing good deeds.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by owo(m): 11:08am On Sep 10, 2006
Olobowale,
your decision (or what seems like a desicion) to ignore, refuse to see or understand and become blind towards the simple facts is amazing.

I was waiting for you to come to grips with the real issue which is the SINFUL NATURE of man. It is not the SIN.
TayoD has said the same thing and has gone ahead to ask you where you obtained the wrong information.

I wrote -
owo:

If a man is not an offspring of Adam, then he does not inherit the fallen nature. That is why the scripture unambiguosly states that all men are born under sin (ie under the nature that was passed on by Adam)
However there is a way out of it and any and every man can be redeemed. Now a man can choose to remain in Adam’s nature (under sin and its curse) or under a new nature (God has made a way)

It is the fallen(sin) nature.

owo:

Therefore all of Adam’s offsprings do have his nature and this nature is one that lacks and ability to depart from evil – a sinful nature.
Again, it is the fallen (sin) nature

owo:

My dear, the forbidden tree was not the real problem, it was only the route or conduit to accomplishing the goal that Satan had in mind. It could have been anything, as long as those consequences were achieved then, Satan was happy and the nature of sin was implanted in Adam. The disobedience and its consequences were the problem This was then passed onto generations ahead of him
The sin could have been anything, but the issue once again is the sin nature

owo:

Your question (or set of questions) is due to a wrong understanding of what constitutes man, sin, the effects of sin and the mechanism of inheritance and transmission of the sinful nature. Jesus did not have that mis-understanding [John 2:25
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man
]. that is why he gave his life to redeem mankind from sin and all its consequenses

Dear Mr Olobowale and co., the issue is 1. SIN NATURE  2.SIN NATURE, AND  3. SIN NATURE. It cannot be substituted with anything, not even the sin that led to it.

Jesus knew that this nature is in man,
[John 2:25
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man
].

You can choose to hold onto your view or drop it for the one that is as old as humanity and alluded to by the creator of all things.

All other questions, fall into their proper place when this point is well understood.

PS: Fortunately, your view on this issue cannot change the truth nor the effect of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on humanity in general.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by owo(m): 11:27am On Sep 10, 2006
babs787:

now to owo, its quite unfortunate andalsoobvious that uve been unable to answer the questions iasked. i didnt ask u about paul. usawall iasked you. be sincere with yourself, read it over again and answer those questions at the tail end.

Babs, unfortunately you refused to stand up and be counted when I asked for a commitment to stay the course. However, another person did (unless you are one and the same with him).

You are free to claim that you have not seen an answer to your questions, expecially if you can prove that you are blind and have not seen the posts above.
You are free, at all times, to go back and read that post or continue in the ignorance that made you to start this thread.

Fortunately, you asked the simplest of questions and no one needed to lose sleep over them.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 12:35pm On Sep 10, 2006
@OWO; Did you go to the thread that I had mentioned concerning tayoD's response to Reverend? If you did and read through what TayoD entered therein, you will probably not have responded to me the way you did, in your last entry. Probably, you would have asked TayoD to explain himself.

To support my statement, again, below is what Mr. Simon Kolawole of This day (African views on Global News) Journal wrote. This is on Nigeria.com Website, under an article Titled: Atiku Vs Obasanjo: The Original Sin.

Mr. Kolawole is probably a Christian, but Sure a Yoruba . Is Original sin stated here as part of the title of his topic and repeated on the last full line of this article a Yoruba based or christian based. You know, a whole bunch of people use this Original sin expression outside Yoruba tribe, indeed outside Nigeria, Africa.
My hope is that you should Mr. Owo write Mr. Simon Kolawole to explain to you what original sin is and if it is in the Bible. If it is there is your answer. If not, then I want to know why are Christs saying and claiming things/ideas that has no clear basis in their religion and passing it out as something natural/real/acceptable.

Mr. Simon Kolawole's emailt address is simonkolawole@thisdayonline.com. He made this entry of his with the Phrase'Original Sin' on the 10th of September, 2006. His email is a public record, clearly available from the article.

Please do not argue blindly. Your defense does not bode well in this case.

I have stated it again, that Islam has nothing called Original Sin in it.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 3:44pm On Sep 10, 2006
@Olabowale,

Can you understand what you read at all. My quote about obviously shows I do not believe in anything called original sin, rather I believe in what the Bible refers to as the sin nature. Is that too much for you to grasp?

By the way, your whole argument is supposed to be based on the Bible and not on what one person says or another. Please provide the Bible quote that refers to the original sin. Until then, you are just parambolating in darkness and self-illusion.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 10:57pm On Sep 10, 2006
@TayoD: If you do not know what original sin is, why did you use it in your response to Reverend? You just use something without being able to stand up and defend it.

You should ask your pastor/preacher or somebody who has better understanding of your religion than you. Obviously you do not have enough know how of the religion, because you should not be asking a MUSLIM to research it for you.

Anyway, just to prove a point, I Google search ORIGINAL SIN. You and others should do the same. What you will find in the Catholic writeup on it will surprise you. Its too long for me and I am not a specialist in Computer, I do not know hoa to cut and paste. So there.

You should know that the Catholic sect of christianity is older than the protestants as a whole and you have so many mini-mini set in the protestant. Which one are you. Even Nigeria have there own special mini-mini set; The cele, the Aladura to name a few. Are there newer groups now in Nigeria.

TayoD, stop and smell the coffee. Think about your own destiny and do not be blinded by feel good and unnecessary idealog.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 5:12am On Sep 11, 2006
@OLABOWALE,

Are you trying to tell me there is no original sin quoted in the Bible?  So what exactly is your stress? If you can't show biblical references, then your argument falls flat on its face.

I have used the phrase 'original sin' here in answer to your question.  The same phrase was used in answer to Reverend who was also out of line. The use of the phrase was just to point out the errors of you two, and I state exactly what my stance is: our problem is not about inheriting Adam's or anybody's sin, our problem is in inheriting a sin nature. 

You are just way out of line, and if you can't prove your argument from the Bible, then you have no case.  Just go back to your clerics maybe they will give you more information to confuse you further.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by olabowale(m): 11:21am On Sep 11, 2006
@TayoD: The unfortunate thing is that I did not study Qur'an as a child. Very typical of good number of the Yoruba Muslim families. Fortunately, i remained muslim and the lord of Things brought me to America to understand islam. Of all places on earth, i learnt Qur'an on this shore.

Now to your issue; It seemed to me when you quoted "Original sin" in your response to the Reverend in the month of may, you must have used it as a Biblical/Christian terminology. You did not use it as a person who did not believe it means something. I am asking you now, what do you think it means Biblically/in Christiandom. If you do not know and did not believe it meant something but used it nontheless because you like how it sounds, or any other reason then its okay.

I gave you the google search process so that it might best help you to understand that some christians believe there is original sin. In Islam, we are of the belief that Adam/Even sin was on them. They asked for forgiveness, God accepted their repentance. There is no where in the Qur'an and no one can tell me that Adam/Eve will go to Hellfire. It is not reported anywhere that they sinned again or that Jesus will be the intercessor for them.

As as muslim it is my responsibility to share the truth which is Islam with you. I am inviting you to good. If you like, accept it, if you do not like, reject it. To you the deeds of your soul, to me the deeds of my soul. God who is merciful, having a mercy that encompasses everything on eartha nd in even, the known and the unknown is capable of forgiving every one. He does not need to slaughter/punish/let somebody else be killed as an attoinment/means of forgiveness for you or me.

God is not unjust and He is able to do all things. I personally do not have the time to argue with you or anybody who is stuck in the Mud and do not want to learn.

I can discuss with you matters of the heart and other branches of living, but we are writing pass each other and it is not beneficial to you or me.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 12:23pm On Sep 11, 2006
owo, u lack manners. u just open ur mouth and be talking rudelessly to anybody. now uve failed in aswering my questions, why beating about the bush.

and to you tayoD, watch out for my contradictions in the bible? but want you to answer my questions before going or diverting to another issue or topic.
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by babs787(m): 1:30pm On Sep 11, 2006
and now to tayoD, have a look at this and tell what is happening. for example, u preached to someone to accept your religion and the person agreed. but when the person was going thru the bible, he came across the following problems. now, as an honest and a good christian, how will you explain the below issues to him in order to bail him out. please make reference to your bible if need be.

remeber ISLAM IS THE TRUTH.

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

MORE ARE STILL COMING BUT ANSWER THESE FIRST. LETS ASSUME THAT UVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO JUSTICE TO THE ISSUE OF THE ORIGINAL SIN AND ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
Re: Did Jesus For Our Sin? Which Sin? (no, Bring Your Proof If You R Truthful) by TayoD(m): 4:27pm On Sep 11, 2006
@olabowale and babs 787,

Do you both now agree that there is no instance of an 'original sin' mentioned in the bible, or at all preached by the Bible? Let us agree that you guys missed it totally on this one, then we can go on to others. At least, now that your error and deliberate misleading or perhaps abject ignorance of the bilical teaching is exposed, the honorable thing is to acknowledge your wrong.

Why should I bother to prove or disprove anything to you any more when you are not willing to accept that you have been proved wrong on your very first point on this thread?

As for what I think the 'original sin' is, there is nothing like that. The first sin on earth was disobedience, if that is what you are trying to say. However, that sin was not imputed to the rest of us. The only thing the Bible teaches is the sin nature in our flesh which all who are born of Adam will possess. I shouldn't even bother to educate you on this matter since you choose not to acknowledge your ignorance.

My final authority is the Bible and I will not join issues with you with whatever anybody else wrote on the internet. They have the right to say whatever they want, but I have only one rule: if it aint Bible, it is not better than trash. At least, one who calls himself a Reverend on nairaland was also deceived by this teaching which has absolutely no biblical basis.

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