gatiano:
Yes, perhaps you are right, the earth is tilted to a side, which is the first imperfectness, plus the earth herself is not a perfect sphere or ball.
When a car is moving on the road, The same way the tyres/wheels of the car glide upon the surface of the tar, is exactly the same way the planets glide upon the surface of ether (that dark space we see up there is also a substance called ether without which light can not travel).
The earth goes round and round on a journey to the unknown to some and the destination known to its builders, how then is it that we travel so smoothly without any whoobling? It is because of the mountains and hills, they serve as shockabsorbers, exactly what is added to the wheels of our vehicles.

Do you think these mountains just grew all by themselves, or out of some pop soup of explosion or somebody or some people made them so through artificial explosion?

Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this heavy subject called God is in reality A living Man?

I had always knew that! Anything associated with him has always been created, controlled, and managed by men.

Mountains formed from the solidification of erupted volcanic ashes.

Thanks for that shock absorber point.

I replied you, because I thought you were trying mystify the earth.

according to the fable, the dude created lucifer and that fvcker have been a pain in his a$$ ever since and he cant do shiit to stop it... thats like a stone he created and he cant move the shiit...

This is a trick question... if I answer NO, then you say that his not almighty. If I say YES, then you also say that he is not all powerful...

xcapizt:
Can almighty God create a task that's so huge even he can't do?

teeowl:
This is a trick question... if I answer NO, then you say that his not almighty. If I say YES, then you also say that he is not all powerful...

Sir, it's actually called the paradox of omnipotence.

davien:
lol!
That deduction still follows mathematical guidelines....the only thing different is that 0 could be defined as 1 and vice versa...

You could say 1 x 1 x 1 = 0
And 0 x 0 x 0 = 1....

You're imposing a false analogy....nobody has accepted that "god" could make such a thing(except for you),...because "god" unlike mathematical terms carries baggage with it's definition...
If you really wanted to represent that question in a mathematically similar way...it would go like this...

Infinity / > infinity (infinity divided by greater than infinity)

Which begs the question of what would be greater than infinity because the axiom of infinity has no defined range....therefore nothing could be concluded about the question because the axiom is useless in getting any meaningful information...

So one could also say that since the axiom of "god/gods" cannot be defined within a meaningful range to estimate things like their capabilities then they are useless terms that have no quantifiable basis....

That was it, but you missed the question and the point!

dude, that's garbage you have up there— not an argument.
You should try to expand your one-tracked mind.

-end-

johnydon22:
according to the fable, the dude created lucifer
and that fvcker have been a pain in his a$$ ever since and he cant do shiit to stop it

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me.
I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal.
No one can rescue anyone from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left,
'Depart from Me, accursed ones,
into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

johnydon22:
... thats like a stone he created and he cant move the shiit...

Luke 4:34
"Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?
Have you come to destroy us?
I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

The word "destroy" is a translation of the Greek word appolumi.
apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi,''to destroy'')
means – destroy utterly, properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
http://biblehub.com/text/luke/4-34.htm

MuttleyLaff:

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me.
I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal.
No one can rescue anyone from My hand.

1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left,
'Depart from Me, accursed ones,
into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;


Luke 4:34
"Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?
Have you come to destroy us?
I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

The word "destroy" is a translation of the Greek word appolumi.
apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi,''to destroy'')
means – destroy utterly, properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
http://biblehub.com/text/luke/4-34.htm

..so after all this crap now.. is lucifer still there or is he no longer in existence?..

johnydon22:
...so after all this crap now.. is lucifer still there or is he no longer in existence?..

Don't be as thick as a two blank board, Lucifer's day of reckoning is in the future.

SNCOQ3:

dude, that's garbage you have up there— not an argument.
You should try to expand your one-tracked mind.

-end-

I guess not believing a guy walked on water without evidence is being "one-track" minded....how's about you go pull your head out of your as..ss for once..

MuttleyLaff:
Don't be as thick as a two blank board, Lucifer's day of reckoning is in the future.

..lol.. the future.. that seems to me like a bone in ur gods throat then

finofaya:


We parked rain within the foot mat at the entrance of the calender.

I'll concede that God's omnipotence excludes logical impossibilities, even as we are all quite certain that logic holds no sway over God, which is why some people are able to tell you with a straight face that a perfectly just God can be all merciful.

Interestingly, we might have examples in practice of an omnipotent God creating something outside his power. Consider a God who made it such there would be sin, pain, suffering, etc. If he can make a world with none of these things, then our current pain and suffering are arbitrary. If he cannot, then the pain and suffering he created are now outside his power.

I guess I'll just add this caveat to my earlier concession: with God all things are possible.

Let me guess, you are going to say that you don't understand that first sentence up there, right? That would be very interesting. Because I think the sentence does have meaning even to me who didn't make it. It's just a false statement, is all. Much like, "that man was delivered of a baby girl last week."

As for the second part of your post, that we don't understand how something can be does not therefore make it impossible. Consider that to get a world free of sin etc with man in it, it may be necessary to allow a world with sin etc in it first. Do you find that implausible?

ihedinobi2:

Let me guess, you are going to say that you don't understand that first sentence up there, right? That would be very interesting. Because I think the sentence does have meaning even to me who didn't make it. It's just a false statement, is all. Much like, "that man was delivered of a baby girl last week."

As for the second part of your post, that we don't understand how something can be does not therefore make it impossible. Consider that to get a world free of sin etc with man in it, it may be necessary to allow a world with sin etc in it first. Do you find that implausible?

Right.

I know things don't need us to understand them in order to be. I was only trying to point out that the sort of logic that permits a perfectly just, all merciful God should also permit an omnipotent God whose power is limited.

I'd find your example implausible if the creator of the world is truly omnipotent, since he would have control over all reality and can define what amounts to "necessary".

finofaya:


Right.

I know things don't need us to understand them in order to be. I was only trying to point out that the sort of logic that permits a perfectly just, all merciful God should also permit an omnipotent God whose power is limited.

I'd find your example implausible if the creator of the world is truly omnipotent, since he would have control over all reality and can define what amounts to "necessary".

You consider it logically impossible for God to be both perfectly just and merciful? Why?

Um, do you believe in absolutes? That is, if something is "absolutely (something)", then it is absolutely not (its opposite)"?

ihedinobi2:


You consider it logically impossible for God to be both perfectly just and merciful? Why?

Um, do you believe in absolutes? That is, if something is "absolutely (something)", then it is absolutely not (its opposite)"?

If he is all merciful he cannot do justice since he can only show mercy where justice would have sufficed. If he must be perfectly just, he must give to each their due.

I don't understand the absolutes part. Do you mean the law of non contradiction?

xcapizt:
Can almighty God create a task that's so huge even he can't do?

I have been reading with keen interest the comments replying to the above post
I found SNCOQ3 and davien touch on infinity stimulating.
Got amused watching some refusing to stay "down" after getting knocked to the canvas by ihedinobi2's thread-killer post

This a pointless question, just like ihedinobi2 earlier hinted
a pointless question that has no answer, as this is a "Sisyphean Task"

You will find that almighty God will create a task that's so huge even he can't move or do
but when it comes to moving/doing it, He moves/does it.

So almighty God will create a task that's so huger than the earlier one even he can't move or do all over again
but when it comes to moving/doing it, He moves/does it, again

The cycle or repetition, goes on, constantly repeating over and over again, indefinitely as in on to infinity
Soon realise this is a never ending task
and you wont get an answer to your question because it is an unending and futile task asked off God by OP

The question of God creating something He cant move, is unnecessary,
as there is no outcome capable of producing any useful answer or response the OP anticipates

johnydon22:
..lol.. the future..

Yes, at the appointed time in the future
Tick tock, tick tock.
Clock is ticking, and time is running out

johnydon22:
...that seems to me like a bone in ur gods throat then

On the contrary, you err,
God is not disturbed or fazed by Lucifer
Lucifer actually is playing into God hands and His scheme of things
The truth right in there, is that, God gets to taking care of a double whammy, lucifer and sin, in killing two birds, with one stone

finofaya:


If he is all merciful he cannot do justice since he can only show mercy where justice would have sufficed. If he must be perfectly just, he must give to each their due.

I don't understand the absolutes part. Do you mean the law of non contradiction?

Let's see. Say, you stole money from a man. There's just you and him, no state law, no community justice system, just you and him. You owe him. Justice is that you pay back what you stole. But you've wasted or lost that money somehow and can't pay back.

Say, this man sets up a business in your name that you are allowed to run with his help and advice. That business generates that money and he takes it back to cover your debt. The money is thus paid and you have no more debt to him.

Is justice done? Was he also merciful to you?


I guess you could say it's the law of non-contradiction. Basically, if A is white then A cannot be "not white". That's what I mean. Do you believe that?

MuttleyLaff:

This a pointless question, just like ihedinobi2 earlier hinted
a pointless question that has no answer, as this is a "Sisyphean Task"

You will find that almighty God will create a task that's so huge even he can't move or do
but when it comes to moving/doing it, He moves/does it.

So almighty God will create a task that's so huger than the earlier one even he can't move or do all over again
but when it comes to moving/doing it, He moves/does it, again

The cycle or repetition, goes on, constantly repeating over and over again, indefinitely as in on to infinity
Soon realise this is a never ending task
and you wont get an answer to your question because it is an unending and futile task asked off God by OP

The question of God creating something He cant move, is unnecessary,
as there is no outcome capable of producing any useful answer or response the OP anticipates

Hence, a paradox

ihedinobi2:


Let's see. Say, you stole money from a man. There's just you and him, no state law, no community justice system, just you and him. You owe him. Justice is that you pay back what you stole. But you've wasted or lost that money somehow and can't pay back.

Say, this man sets up a business in your name that you are allowed to run with his help and advice. That business generates that money and he takes it back to cover your debt. The money is thus paid and you have no more debt to him.

Is justice done? Was he also merciful to you?


I guess you could say it's the law of non-contradiction. Basically, if A is white then A cannot be "not white". That's what I mean. Do you believe that?

Mercy would've been letting me go, or forfeiting some of the stolen money, given that justice is simply full restitution without punishment. I get what you mean, however. In the case of an all merciful God, the only option would be to let me go.

Yes, I believe "A" can't be both "A" and "not A" at the same time.

finofaya:


Mercy would've been letting me go, or forfeiting some of the stolen money, given that justice is simply full restitution without punishment. I get what you mean, however. In the case of an all merciful God, the only option would be to let me go.

Yes, I believe "A" can't be both "A" and "not A" at the same time.

Yes, mercy is forgiving the debt. And Justice is making sure that wrong is made right. Now, if that business is made profitable enough to pay off your debt without any input from you how have you not been let go?

Ok, then you believe that omnipotence to be logically consistent cannot allow contradiction. Omnipotence will not make "A" to be both "A" and "not A" at the same time. Do you agree? Or is it your opinion that omnipotence needs to be logically inconsistent?

ihedinobi2:


Yes, mercy is forgiving the debt. And Justice is making sure that wrong is made right. Now, if that business is made profitable enough to pay off your debt without any input from you how have you not been let go?

Ok, then you believe that omnipotence to be logically consistent cannot allow contradiction. Omnipotence will not make "A" to be both "A" and "not A" at the same time. Do you agree? Or is it your opinion that omnipotence needs to be logically inconsistent?

The business did require my input, in your example.

I expect everything to be logically consistent.

finofaya:


The business did require my input, in your example.

I expect everything to be logically consistent.

Not really it didn't. But granted that I did make it seem so it was not necessarily so. The man could start a business in your name, run it, make a profit, take what you owe him, dissolve the business or continue running it for you leaving you every other profit he makes. In that case, is mercy not served? And justice too?

Ok, good. If A is a world without sin and bad stuff in it but with humans who have "free will", then A is not a world where humans don't know what the misuse of "free will" can cause. Do you agree?

ihedinobi2:


Not really it didn't. But granted that I did make it seem so it was not necessarily so. The man could start a business in your name, run it, make a profit, take what you owe him, dissolve the business or continue running it for you leaving you every other profit he makes. In that case, is mercy not served? And justice too?

Ok, good. If A is a world without sin and bad stuff in it but with humans who have "free will", then A is not a world where humans don't know what the misuse of "free will" can cause. Do you agree?

The way I see it, technically, if justice involves the doing of "x" and the wrong doer does "x" then that is simply justice. Mercy involves having the wrong doer do "y" instead. So, in your example, if I restitute by any means whatsoever then I haven't been shown mercy. You might see it my way if you imagine that the theft took place while I was in the employment of my benefactor and I restituted out of my salary. Would that be merciful justice?

Did you mean "A is a world where humans don't know what the misuse of free will can cause"? I'll say then can know, even if they don't know, since they can be told.

finofaya:


The way I see it, technically, if justice involves the doing of "x" and the wrong doer does "x" then that is simply justice. Mercy involves having the wrong doer do "y" instead. So, in your example, if I restitute by any means whatsoever then I haven't been shown mercy. You might see it my way if you imagine that the theft took place while I was in the employment of my benefactor and I restituted out of my salary. Would that be merciful justice?

Did you mean "A is a world where humans don't know what the misuse of free will can cause"? I'll say then can know, even if they don't know, since they can be told.

You could see it better, I think. Justice is about correcting wrong. If you steal money, then you should return it to its rightful owner. Mercy does not require that the one who has been deprived of good continue to suffer, it only requires that the perpetrator be let go and not suffer what justice is due them. Now, if you did not work even for a day to produce the money that is given back to the man you stole from, then you experienced mercy. And if the money is paid back at all, justice is done. It is as simple as that. What restitution did you do when you neither fronted the money for the business, produced the idea or provided the skill or drive? You got a free ride out of a bad situation.

No, I meant "A is NOT a world where humans don't know what the misuse of free will can cause". Do you really think so? Because I don't think that many people feel confident that being told something is enough to actually know it. We appear to learn by experiment. To be clear, do you drive? If you do, how did you know how to drive? Did you know it by being told how to?

DProDG:
Hence, a paradox

when thought over, long enough, it turns more into a paridox than a paradox

ihedinobi2:


You could see it better, I think. Justice is about correcting wrong. If you steal money, then you should return it to its rightful owner. Mercy does not require that the one who has been deprived of good continue to suffer, it only requires that the perpetrator be let go and not suffer what justice is due them. Now, if you did not work even for a day to produce the money that is given back to the man you stole from, then you experienced mercy. And if the money is paid back at all, justice is done. It is as simple as that. What restitution did you do when you neither fronted the money for the business, produced the idea or provided the skill or drive? You got a free ride out of a bad situation.

No, I meant "A is NOT a world where humans don't know what the misuse of free will can cause". Do you really think so? Because I don't think that many people feel confident that being told something is enough to actually know it. We appear to learn by experiment. To be clear, do you drive? If you do, how did you know how to drive? Did you know it by being told how to?

You described justice as "you pay back what you stole", for this case we are considering. That justice cannot be met by having the victim pay to himself the money he lost to theft. Any solution that involves more or less than the justice you've set out is either injustice or mercy, respectively.

If you put it like that (A is NOT...), it means humans do know what the misuse of free will can cause, in A. I would have to disagree then, since in A there will be no such thing as misuse of free will. Of course they can always be told.

There are things that you don't have the opportunity of knowing by experience yourself. You know them by either watching the thing happen to another or having another tell you about it. For example, you know that a strong enough electric shock will kill you, even though you have never experienced it (obviously). You have either been told about it or seen it happen to someone else. I believe you are not inclined to know by experience what a strong electric shock can do, owing to what you've seen or heard. Indirect knowledge suffices sometimes.

At the driving instance, I learnt how to drive by doing as I was told. After a while I didn't have to be told anything. Look at something as simple as operating the car's wipers. If you are told what button to press to use them, do you know how to use them at that point or at the point where you press the button? Indirect knowledge suffices.

MuttleyLaff:
when thought over, long enough, it turns more into a paridox than a paradox

According to definition I found on Urban Dictionary, 'paridox' has nothing to do with this.

DProDG:
According to definition I found on Urban Dictionary, 'paridox' has nothing to do with this.

Good that you looked up what paridox is all about

Anyway, it does have all to do with "this" my brother,
as you're toying with the Omnipotence paradox
and making judgement about God with it and the "Sisyphean Task",
but it sooner or later becomes a paridox when you find out the honest truth about God

MuttleyLaff:

Good that you looked up what paridox is all about

Anyway, it does have all to do with "this" my brother,
as you're toying with the Omnipotence paradox
and making judgement about God with it and the "Sisyphean Task",
but it sooner or later becomes a paridox when you find out the honest truth about God

It's not necessarily about God. Simply put, the concept of omnipotence(whether attached to a deity or not) is an obvious paradox.

MuttleyLaff:

Good that you looked up what paridox is all about

Anyway, it does have all to do with "this" my brother,
as you're toying with the Omnipotence paradox
and making judgement about God with it and the "Sisyphean Task",
but it sooner or later becomes a paridox when you find out the honest truth about God

question:
how can the "honest truth about God" be found?

DProDG:
It's not necessarily about God.
Simply put, the concept of omnipotence (whether attached to a deity or not) is an obvious paradox.

God is not one or any of your run off the mill deity(ies)
which is why the Omnipotence paradox necessarily doesnt apply to God