italo:


What is infant Baptism, if not bringing infants for Jesus to touch?

2. You still haven't said anything about Gentiles being judged with their conscience or not. Have you not found a way to change Romans 2? You need more time?

italo:


What is infant Baptism, if not bringing infants for Jesus to touch?

2. You still haven't said anything about Gentiles being judged with their conscience or not. Have you not found a way to change Romans 2? You need more time?

Barnabaseloka:

Bro. get rid of your pride and accept the truth when you come across one. [s][/s][b]
Only those who are BORN AGAIN are required to go through WATER BAPTISM.
[/b]It is not for those who WILL be born again after WATER BAPTISM. Learn to study rather than holding tenaciously to what you cannot explain and balance with other passages of the scriptures.

italo:
Where did Philip get the teaching that he had to baptize the Eunuch with water, if not John 3:5?

Barnabaseloka:

Don't you see how you have constructed your own definition of infant baptism in order to have a foothold to heresy? Luke 18:15 talks about 'that He might TOUCH (place His hands on or bless) them. It never mentioned the word 'water', not to talk of infant baptism. Even Jesus was not baptised when He was dedicated in the temple in Luke 2:21-24. Therefore do not give your own definition to a word in order to back up that which is unscriptural.
As regards the Gentiles and their conscience, I have replied you in my previous post. So go and enjoy it.

italo:


To be born again is to be born of water and Spirit which is baptism.
That is why Jesus and his apostles went and baptized immediately after the teaching.
That is why Philip baptized the Eunuch.
That is why the Bible baptized entire households based on the faith of the father.


Nowhere does the Bible say the Bold.

italo:


Are you saying Jesus doesn't touch people at baptism?

italo:
To be born again is to be born of water and Spirit which is baptism.
That is why Jesus and his apostles went and baptized immediately after the teaching.
That is why Philip baptized the Eunuch.
That is why the apostles baptized entire households based on the faith of the parents.


Nowhere does the Bible say the Bold.

MuttleyLaff:


Look at you asking "where did Philip get the teaching that he had to baptize the Eunuch with water, if not John 3:5"

Of course it was from John 3:5 and other places
but recognise the Eunuch, at that point in time, was a babe in Christ, you surely dont expect Philip to force feed this new and enthusiastic convert with:
"Erm, you know Mr Eunuch, it's not phyical and literal water, but the water actually is the baptism or immersion with the word of God"

Philip went along at the level the Eunuch was and obliged the Eunuch's request for the physical rite

italo:
This your excuse is too lame. That Philip only baptized the Eunuch because he didn't want to force-feed a babe the true baptism.

Peter's audience in Acts 10:47 already had what you call 'true baptism' yet Peter was the one that brought up the idea that he had to baptize them with water, not the people.

Was Peter also a babe in Christ?

From where did he get this teaching?

Where are the "other places" that They learnt to baptize with water?

Manufacture more lame excuses.

MuttleyLaff:
You, Syncan et al, keep making references to the Apostles and about their water baptisms
and I have, asked all several questions that stay unanswered,
so I'll repeat a few here again, thereby giving you, Syncan et al another opportunity to address them:

How were all those baptisms carried?
Were they full baptism as in full immersion in physical water or not?
How were each or individual physical water baptisms carried out by the Apostles done?

MuttleyLaff:



On the day of pentecost that 3000 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise each of those 3000?

MuttleyLaff:


Final question, in this current dispensation, what is the present format or mode of carrying out and doing water baptism?
What form of physical water baptism do you subscribe to?

italo:
I don't know whether it was immersion or sprinkling that the 3000 were baptized but I know it was with Physical water with the invocation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

How do you say the 3000, St. Paul, Lydia's family, the Jailer's family were baptized? By Spirit, water or word?

I don't know the place.

But I know that, by sprinkling, it could take as low as 5 seconds to baptize one person.
Going by that, the 12 apostles could have baptized 250 persons each, which would make the whole exercise last only 20mins.
Very feasible...regardless of time of the day.
If all 120 believers joined them in baptizing, it would take only 2mins.

Baptism with water, (whether sprinkling, pouring or immersion) with the invocation of the Holy Trinity, as in the days of the apostles.

italo:
Now please answer me questions...including the bold.

MuttleyLaff:
SMH at your "Was Peter also a babe in Christ?"
Must have been some italo cross reading or reading comprehension thing going on there

italo just answer those questions or just let the matter rest,
as you dont really want to bring the Eunuch into this
or ask for the reason why this Eunuch was so bent and insisting of performing this external ritual or rite
because if you do, I might breathe down heavily on you
and drag you, screaming down heavier truth paths, you dont necessarily want to tread, about the Eunuch,
or at least not for now, heavier truths about the Eunuch you dont want to hear or know.

italo:
What meaningless banter!

italo:
You suggested that the Eunuch demanded water baptism because he was only a babe in christ.

italo:
Peter's audience in Acts 10:47 already had what you call 'true baptism' yet Peter was the one that brought up the idea that he had to baptize them with water, not the people.

italo:
So was Peter also a babe in Christ? If not, what is your reason for his demanding it./quote]No, Peter also was not a babe in Christ then but the receipients or audience were.
I have given the reason immediately up there above this

[quote author=italo post=34957301]From where did he get this teaching?

italo:
Where are the "other places" that They learnt to baptize with water?

MuttleyLaff:
I honestly do feel like giving you a bear hug italo.
I just love your forthright honesty and admire your unashamed naivety

Where is or which verse did you find this Trinitarian formula from?
and are you sure of the authenticity of this verse compared with the original text?

MuttleyLaff:

Did John the Baptist perform this your " invocation of the Holy Trinity" version for Jesus too?

MuttleyLaff:


Now, here is me answering any questions you have for me ...including and starting with the bold.

On the day of pentecost that 3000 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
This was for my benefit, as I am trying to gauge or find out:
#1. how much you know about Jerusalem, its topograph, especially in relation to water(s)
#2. what yours and the accepted general view is on the format used and how the water baptism was done or carried out

Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise each of those 3000?
This is the thing italo, baptism is not an exclusive word for water baptism.
There is baptism of Fire, people get immersed in their studies or book, people get immersed in hobbies etc

OK, I know most churches, if not all, practise triune baptism
but you earlier suggested just "the invocation of the Holy Trinity" as carried out by the Apostles
doing baptism with water, either as water sprinkling, water pouring or immersion in water.

italo please note, that Acts 2:41 verse is silent on "water baptism", as it only said they were "baptised"

Acts 2:41
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day--about 3,000 in all.

Say for discussion sake, that immersion in water was used, wow this will be an all day affair, possibly spilling to the next day, dont you think

"Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise each of those 3000?" was a "SMOKE OUT" question.
Used to force someone out of a place, in order to reveal something

italo:
Matt28:19

italo:
No. He wasn't commanded to.

italo:
Did you not see where I showed how 3000 people could easily have been baptized with water in 2mins?

italo:
You still didn't answer my question:

Which baptism did the people I mentioned get?

Water, word or Spirit baptism?

MuttleyLaff:
You're ahead of me in that area,
you do a better work with meaningless banter than me

That and more italo


Ah-ha! There you are. Yes! Very true, Peter brought it up first.
Peter used his discretion to offer it to them without them instigate first.

Barnabaseloka:

You amuse me a lot. Philip and the believers in Jesus followed the instruction on baptism that Jesus gave in Mark 16:15-16 and Mt.28:18. Jesus did not talk about baptism in John 3:5.
What do you understand by one being born again?

MuttleyLaff:
He got his get this teaching same place from where he initially refused to eat with a Gentile

Baba Ijebu, you really want to get your money's worth. Try John the Baptist and Jesus before resurrection for starters

I know the Apostles were initially instructed to water baptise, but not necessarily "baptise with water" after Jesus resurrected italo.
You'll be amazed to know that one gets baptised with other things apart from literal water

italo:
I already answered the bold. Meanwhile you're yet to tell me why you contradict the Bible on Gentiles being saved by their conscience. Still dodging that.

MuttleyLaff:
Ouch! No!! Tell me you didnt go for Matt 28:19
I knew you'll rise to that bait and go for Matt 28:19
but prayed and hope you would have the sense not to

MuttleyLaff:

I didnt think he was commanded to either but was wondering why Jesus didnt command him to "invocation of the Holy Trinity".
He did afterall commanded John to get on with it when John was hesistating water baptising Jesus

MuttleyLaff:


I did see it italo,
I stand to be corrected your sprinkling format is how RCC does theirs
but most churches, if not all, like in pentecostals, practice water immersion and particularly triune water baptism

MuttleyLaff:


It is always the word or spirit baptism italo, without the word or spirit of God no one can enter the Kingdom

MuttleyLaff:


This whole thing, is like already winning a 100m dash race and later waiting or later given a medal for a race already or previously won
It's just an outward exercise, no one can take the fact and truth away that one won the race
The medal, whether gold, sliver or bronze is just an outward symbol or appearance that shows as evidence for something earlier won
It's all wash, a ceremony, a ritual, a rite, an award podium ceremony.

brocab:
As we all know many millions of Catholic's believe in baby baptism-many haven't reached the true baptism of Christ.

John 3:3-5- Jesus said to him "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?"
Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus had said clearly' one must make a choice.

But it seems you Catholic's have a different idea about baptism, none have made a choice, instead you have allowed your parents, to make that choice for you. You all seem to believe your parents made the right decision's, baptising you into the Catholic Church from birth.

So your baptism and the scriptures baptism are totally different.

John 3:3-5-John 3:16-Jesus said: one must believe? And be born again before he can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Barnabaseloka:

When one believes in Jesus at the point of hearing the word of God on repentance and salvation, what will Jesus do in the life of such a person?
I did not contradict the bible. Go and read my post on it. I have answered you on this.

italo:


Lying as usual!

Below is what you said:

Those that died before Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world will be judged by their conscience. But after His death and resurrection, God puts anyone right with Himself through his/her faith in Christ Jesus ONLY.

Here's what St. Paul said after Christ's death:

Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

italo:
Bros. You keep beating around the bush.

italo:
Why did all the apostles baptize with water? Where did they learn it from that they had to do so?

italo:
You keep give all sorts of flimsy excuses.

italo:
"Peter used discretion" "Philip didn't want to force-feed" "Eunuch was a babe" "Eunuch was a babe and more"

italo:
Interesting.

italo:
So are you saying that Peter and all the others who baptized with water were getting it wrong...Yet Jesus or no one else corrected them.

italo:
You know better than Jesus and all the apostles, then.

italo:
Then all things written in the Bible could be wrong and are subject to your ratification.

italo:
Please explain the bold. I'd like to know where they were instructed to "water baptize."

Barnabaseloka:

Yes, I wrote the bolded, but why do you accuse me of lying? I laugh when I read some of your posts. The way you read some passages in the bible and interpret them directly without checking other passages is quite unimaginable. P/s learn to study the scriptures in order to correlate passages with passages.

I will summarize the verses you quoted in simple terms:
1. Paul made the Jews to understand that God would accept them only if they obeyed the law given to them and not by having the law.
2. He went ahead to point out that if Gentiles who did not have the law obeyed what were written in the law by nature, they would be accepted by God and justified.
3.The Jews who had the law were no different from the Gentiles who did not have the law, yet obeyed it by nature.
4. If the Gentiles obeyed the law, though not having the law, it showed that the law had been written in their hearts.
5. Their conscience also would bear witness of the law written in their hearts in that what they did would either excuse them or accuse them.
6. The jews and the Gentiles, therefore were without excuse in God's sight.

When I said those that died before Jesus paid for the sins of the world, being judged by their conscience, I talk of the Gentiles. Now ANYONE (whether a Jew or a Gentile) is put right with God through FAITH in Christ only, not by the law anymore. I will support this with few scriptures.
Rom.3:9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they (Gentiles)? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin.
20. Therefore, by the DEEDS of the law, NO FLESH will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ, to ALL and on ALL who believe. For there is NO DIFFERENCE.
23. For ALL (Jews and Gentiles) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
24. Being JUSTIFIED freely by His GRACE (not law) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Then, Paul told the Jews that anyone who obeyed the law would be justified by God. But now, he has made us know that it is only through our FAITH in Jesus that both Jews and Gentiles will be justified. If you want more passages, I will be willing to post them also.

I ask you again: What will Jesus do in the life of someone who hears the word of God, repents and believes in Him?

MuttleyLaff:
My guy, instead of dishing up mouthfuls that can make some gag with a throw up closely behind,
sometimes it's safe and better this way, handing out bits & bite snacks to nibble on

It is difficult to break an old habit, that is why
They learned it from Jesus before He died and resurrected

The person who is truly sincere about knowing the truth finds it, the other finds and sees excuses.

Yes, toned down to suit your palate.
I dont want to over-tantalize your taste buds

MuttleyLaff:
Got a bit of your attention there, have I?

No, I am not saying such, I had never said such nor anything close or like that.
Why would Jesus correct when He hasnt died and resurrected yet, when He isnt yet in glory?
Why are you expecting that?

Nope, I dont but I know about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire in Luke 3:16

Luke 3:15-16
¹⁵Everyone was expecting the Messiah to come soon, and they were eager to know whether John might be the Messiah.
¹⁶John answered their questions by saying, “I baptize you with water;
but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am
—so much greater that I’m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the straps of his sandals.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire

Whatever is written in the Bible is not wrong. I cant vouch same for the translations though.
An example, is your favourite "Matthew 28:19"
where insertions or additions to the original text were made, to end up with what we presently have as "Matthew 28:19"

Seems you forgot to add or put "initially" in between "they were" and "instructed to "water baptise""
They were initially instructed to baptise with water just as John the Baptist was doing in

John 3:22
²²Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people
²³At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there;
and people kept coming to him for baptism.
²⁴(This was before John was thrown into prison.)
²⁵A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew over ceremonial cleansing.
²⁶So John’s disciples came to him and said,
“Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
And everybody is going to him instead of coming to us.”
²⁷John replied, “No one can receive anything unless God gives it from heaven.
²⁸You yourselves know how plainly I told you, ‘I am not the Messiah. I am only here to prepare the way for him.’
²⁹It is the bridegroom who marries the bride, and the best man is simply glad to stand with him and hear his vows.
Therefore, I am filled with joy at his success.
³⁰He must become greater and greater, and I must become less and less.
³¹“He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else

John 4:1
¹Jesusa knew the Pharisees had heard that he was baptizing and making more disciples than John
²(though Jesus himself didn’t baptize them—his disciples did).

italo:
So Jesus taught the apostles to baptize with water

italo:
but he never told them to stop it, that it wasn't necessary.

italo:
He left the job for you

italo:
I see where the problem is.

We are following what Jesus and his apostles/Church taught and practised...including translations...

Little do we know that many of those aren't correct/necessary.

You're the chief teacher/interpreter of Christianity.

You correct even Jesus' teaching.

italo:


1. Paul wrote that about Gentiles living after Jesus' death...because he spoke in present and future tense, saying:

Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Do you want to edit the scripture and insert past tense there so that Paul can use the verses to talk to people who lived before Christ?

2. My answer to your question: Jesus will touch him.

3. What will Jesus do to the soul of one who never hears about Christ but does good according to conscience...and dies?