babygirlfl:
actually only one answered

Feel free to pose any relevent or subsidiary questions.

babygirlfl:
Most men wouldn't die for their wife.

You state that as a fact, at best it's your opinion. But one could also ask; would most women die for their husbands? Or are most wives worth dying for?

babygirlfl:
Christ loved the church so much that he died on behalf of the church to atone for their sin. Men where asked to love their wife as God loved the church.

So are men to love their wives by atoning for their sins? Really? You need to provide further insight here, as I cannot fathom what you mean by this. Or should I say, to the extent I can, I cannot believe what you appear to be implying.

babygirlfl:
Please lets not mix Nigerian and English men up. These two group of men are so so so different. I believe the English man loves more genuinely.

Is this like an attempt to detonate the discussion ! You are now introducing race and culture into the mix - when we are talking faith/religion

And again, you really need to be explicit here. I've looked at this statement repeatedly and at best it sounds like a wholesale slur on black men. Not only claiming they are pathologically incapable of genuine love, but as a corollary implying they can't even be christians ! Just say it - "the black man, child of a lesser God !

babygirlfl:
I know English men who married women who are terminally ill of cancer. How many Nigerian men will do that. These men love genuinely. I read the story. It was touching. I shed a tear and marvelled. Only these kind of men deserve to expect submission.

Huh? This is just sentimental. It's marriage, but not for the reasons it was instituted. At best it has therapeutic value for the woman

And again, you don't know how many Nigerian men would or wouldn't do this And again, the bible does not predicate a womans submission on a mans love - or on a womans qualifiying him or his actions as worthy of her submission - which is an error you repeatedly make.

babygirlfl:
Funny enough, these kind of men don't even care about submission. It's the Nigerian cheating man that would force submission.

More emotionalism - you are yet to agree that submission is demanded, or that it is demanded unequivocally, before you move on to whether loving men care about it or not. Or its actual dynamic.

And why does a discussion of what the bible says on submission demand you to characterise Nigerian men as "cheating". Not that cheating obviates the command. One can simply avoid Nigerian "insert spiteful characterisation here" men !

You really have presented nothing to show that submission is not demanded and spent a lot of time slurring black/Nigerian men to prove it's not justified


TV

bukatyne:

What is your definition of 'Submission'?

Since the dictionary definition doesnot apply

Does the bible state that women are to be submissive to the leadership of their husbands and to accord him final authority in their home?


TV

^{...Bukatyne, you are greeting me with qweshun...how Yoruba is that. How is Oga !}

TV01:

Does the bible state that women are to be submissive to the leadership of their husbands and to accord him final authority in their home?


TV

^{...Bukatyne, you are greeting me with qweshun...how Yoruba is that. How is Oga !}

I have given my opinion in my first post on this thread

I asked you a question...

How are you and family?

bukatyne:


I have given my opinion in my first post on this thread

I asked you a question...

How are you and family?

This is your first post on this thread - https://www.nairaland.com/2421673/ladies-what-understand-term-submission#35402011
Please answer as asked so I am clear, or provide a link for me to follow.

Everyone is well thanks, albeit we are wrestling with hayfever.


TV

TV01:


This is your first post on this thread - https://www.nairaland.com/2421673/ladies-what-understand-term-submission#35402011
Please answer as asked so I am clear, or provide a link for me to follow.

Everyone is well thanks, albeit we are wrestling with hayfever.


TV

https://www.nairaland.com/2421673/ladies-what-understand-term-submission/1#35411532

Apologies, it was mine 7th post or thereabout....

Get well soon

bukatyne:


Thanks for the response...

I modified my post but I guess it did not go through...

What are the instances of obedience?

Obedience is acknowledging the man as the head and yielding to his instructions. It can take many forms. Do you have any particular example in mind?

TV01:




You state that as a fact, at best it's your opinion. But one could also ask; would most women die for their husbands? Or are most wives worth dying for?
So are men to love their wives by atoning for their sins? Really? You need to provide further insight here, as I cannot fathom what you mean by this. Or should I say, to the extent I can, I cannot believe what you appear to be implying.

One of the ways Christ showed his love to the church is by dying and atoning for the sins of the church. The bible asked men to love their wife the way Christ loved the church so much so that he died for the church. Men are supposed to love their wife so much as to die for her and even for her sins. Women were asked to submit and Jesus did not die for those worth dying for. He died for sinners.

Is this like an attempt to detonate the discussion ! You are now introducing race and culture into the mix - when we are talking faith/religion

And again, you really need to be explicit here. I've looked at this statement repeatedly and at best it sounds like a wholesale slur on black men. Not only claiming they are pathologically incapable of genuine love, but as a corollary implying they can't even be christians ! Just say it - "the black man, child of a lesser God !

Huh? This is just sentimental. It's marriage, but not for the reasons it was instituted. At best it has therapeutic value for the woman

And again, you don't know how many Nigerian men would or wouldn't do this And again, the bible does not predicate a womans submission on a mans love - or on a womans qualifiying him or his actions as worthy of her submission - which is an error you repeatedly make.

I don't know how many Nigerian men will do it but none have done it so far. I have not said whether or not the bible said a mans love qualifes submission. It's my opinion that only such men deserve submission.

More emotionalism - you are yet to agree that submission is demanded, or that it is demanded unequivocally, before you move on to whether loving men care about it or not. Or its actual dynamic.

And why does a discussion of what the bible says on submission demand you to characterise Nigerian men as "cheating". Not that cheating obviates the command. One can simply avoid Nigerian "insert spiteful characterisation here" men !

You really have presented nothing to show that submission is not demanded and spent a lot of time slurring black/Nigerian men to prove it's not justified

My points was never about submission. My points was about men loving their wife so you are the one that got this all wrong. Remember our discussion started by me quoting when you said nobody have talked about men being asked to love their wife. You are the one bringing submission into it.

5minsmadness:

Obedience is acknowledging the man as the head and yielding to his instructions. It can take many forms. Do you have any particular example in mind?

I don't; thought you would.

Anyways, tell your wife to be what your definition of submission is.... Bible definition, dictionary definition, personal definition and ensures you both are on the same page.

bukatyne:


https://www.nairaland.com/2421673/ladies-what-understand-term-submission/1#35411532

Apologies, it was mine 7th post or thereabout....

Get well soon

Tim asked if you agreed with the Bibles stance on submission - without stating what that stance was. So in your agreeing 100%, I don't know what exactly you are agreeing too.

My question was simply stated, a simple answer to that and we are good to go.


TV

babygirlfl:
One of the ways Christ showed his love to the church is by dying and atoning for the sins of the church. The bible asked men to love their wife the way Christ loved the church so much so that he died for the church. Men are supposed to love their wife so much as to die for her and even for her sins. Women were asked to submit and Jesus did not die for those worth dying for. He died for sinners.

I still see no clear point - about either love or submission

A man loves his wife and is willing to sacrifice himself for her - or her "sins" - does that sacrifice have any redemptive or salvific value akin to that of The Lord? Will a man dying for his wifes sins save her or him? More practically, is a husband a "get out of jail free" card

If a wife commits murder and her husband willing accepts - and is allowed - to take the punishment in her stead, what does that say? Moreso about the wife than the husband? Can a husband demonstrate love in any way other than "atoning" for a wifes sins? Or dying for her.

How does a man love a law-abiding wife !

You see why I questioned the implication of what you stated earlier. It simply makes no theological or practical sense - that I can figure - you really need to explicate.

babygirlfl:
I don't know how many Nigerian men will do it but none have done it so far.

This is something you cannot know, and hence a claim you cannot make. Not least because it's based on something that makes no real theological or practical sense - unless of course you are able to simply explain it.

babygirlfl:
I have not said whether or not the bible said a mans love qualifes submission. It's my opinion that only such men deserve submission.

And that's fine to a degree, but if your position is not biblically derived, why do you conclude the necessity of a husbands willingness to sacrifice himself for a wifes sins like the Lord - from the bible

You appear to be making a non-biblical case using the bible .

babygirlfl:
My points was never about submission. My points was about men loving their wife so you are the one that got this all wrong. Remember our discussion started by me quoting when you said nobody have talked about men being asked to love their wife. You are the one bringing submission into it.

I said nobody disputed the bibles command for men to honour, love, respect, cherish and nurture their wives like their own flesh;

1. Bible based
2. In relation to submission - and more particularly the acceptance/rejection of a command for wives to submit

That is what this thread is about, so I am not sure where you are going with this


TV

TV01:
Stillfire (couldn't quote you due to the error in your quoting me),
I acknowledged that – that is not the point in dispute. It is primarily Christianity and the bibles position on submission. Not even the practicalities or particulars of submission, but if it is actually required. But how can we get to the practicalities or the particulars, when it is wholesale rejected as a command?

This is not our language, you know. The English language is clear on what submission means. I did not define it. Therefore, if there are times the woman gets her way, in the English context she is not practicing a submissive behavior (a behavior that does not speak up or challenge a point) but rather an assertive behavior where sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. Agree or not?

Christianity might try to twist the word but it is sufficient to say on that premise of the English context and definition, Christian women are not submissive because today they have the rights to speak up. And if we were to debate this in the law court, the correct term would not be submission to define the christian woman.

You did not answer my question on why the church has taken a 360 degree in not following Paul's ideology in silencing women in church. That is an exemplary criteria of being submissive as a christian woman.

PreciousBro:


Before i referred you to Ephesians, chapter 5 verses, 22- 24, I already saw 21

I agree, however, I am alluding to the situation whereby conflict arises, a woman should there fore bow/surrender and place that authority to her man.

Two heads can't make a body ,it'd be beastly. I mean, what kinda being would that be even in its appearance.

And again, I was speaking of precedence in marital settings, love Supersedes all , but marriage is a different union that requires teaching. That is why we have different bible pages/scriptures on the emphasis to submit.

Please go further and read 1 peter 3, 1-7" and tell me what you understand there.

I believe it is just too vague and dangerous to conclude that in conflict situations a woman is to surrender to the husband. Conflict takes many forms and I think Coogar has highlighted some of those conflicts such as domestic violence in christian marriages. And I will advise any woman to use her common sense. But apparently many women do not use their common sense because of this submission idea that they are to adhere strictly to their man's whims and caprices.

Precious, Verse 7 tells you to submit also, lol.

bukatyne:


Going by the bolded, my husband is a carnivore and I should be scared when he says... 'baby let me eat you'.

I should even be very scared of Yoruba's popular

'E ma lo ra yin gbo; e ma lo ra yin pe'

You both will use yourselves old; You both will use yourselves for long.

Context matters

Do you watch SUITS and what are you on about with context bull?

Was the post anyway adressed to you? I've told you several times to stop quoting me and mind your own business girl. Gosh.

TV01:

I don't agree here. A mature man - which is the pre-requisite for being a husband, not intelligence - will not let his family affairs be a matter of pride or ego. Funnily enough, when a woman is dragging authority with him, there are more likely to be times of conflict and power play.

Ooh Sorry mehn, but I'm only responsible for what I say not how you interpret it

That power struggle was just me painting a bad scenario in a situation where things get sour to the detriment of the marriage or what not. Because we can't deny the fact that these things do happen, it wasn't me indicating that the man should instigate such happenings just for a test of his woman's ability to submit. Nah

My post also didn't indicate that the pre-requisite to a successful marriage is intelligence based,nor any vain criteria, however, I do note that intelligence in it self is a number in the content of maturity.

Stillfire:


I believe it is just too vague and dangerous to conclude that in conflict situations a woman is to surrender to the husband.

If you look closely dear, we still agree on same note ,because the couple both have in them the ability to reason, in a situation where the husband knows that the wife deserves to have that win ,of course he'd budge in...for peace to reign . Works both ways

stillfire:
Conflict takes many forms and I think Coogar has highlighted some of those conflicts such as domestic violence in christian marriages. And I will advise any woman to use her common sense. But apparently many women do not use their common sense because of this submission idea that they are to adhere strictly to their man's whims and caprices.

Conflict that brings jeopardy to their union , whereby it hammers on both party's ego. And the man isn't taking it easy. A situation beyond amends if one party doesn't give in to the other's authority, well, I guess the submission instinct should represent itself and I know it shouldn't be the man, that's why the divorce rate in the western world lingers. The women don't drop the chicken leg for their men..lol

stillfire:
Precious, Verse 7 tells you to submit also, lol.

Where is it in the said verse that the words read literally,that man should submit ?

It even exposes the female folk more ,alluding to their nature as weak and how we should take care of you people ,just like what we have been doing since Adam knew how to drink juice from Eve's cup

Except you want to figuratively phrase your own version, I believe that verse highlighted on love more.

freecocoa:
No, let me vex, it cut deep.

He said if his sister decides to marry a crack addict, then that's her cross, forgetting that, only a stup1d person would marry an addict.

Yet he says intelligence isn't a factor, talk about having it twisted.

What is the man later becomes a crack addict or drunk after marriage as it happens many times because I can see some people saying if she married one she should deal with it however that isn't always so, some people pick up bad habits after marriage .

Should she then submit to a man who's essentially not in his right senses

adebisicutie:


What is the man later becomes a crack addict or drunk after marriage as it happens many times because I can see some people saying if she married one she should deal with it however that isn't always so, some people pick up bad habits after marriage .

Should she then submit to a man who's essentially not in his right senses

I believe you should be able to understand that, that post is referring to a woman who knew she was marrying an addict.

What I am saying is, anyone who is deemed fit for decisions making should make the decision, why should a man who's not in his right senses lead? How can he lead anyone?

freecocoa:
I believe you should be able to understand that, that post is referring to a woman who knew she was marrying an addict.

What I am saying is, anyone who is deemed fit for decisions making should make the decision, why should a man who's not in his right senses lead? How can he lead anyone?

Ok I get you . That's Precisely my point , I won't give my money to an addict , a drunk or a financially irresponsible man and yes it's very possible he developed those traits after marriage . I won't let someone ruin my life and that of my kids .

Also that someone is more intelligent doesn't mean he is more intelligent in all areas, in fact you will hardly find a couple where one partner is more intelligent in all areas . So even if a woman marries a woman who's more intelligent that her overall she may be more intelligent than him in some aspects . However some men are too egotistical to admit that they are not as intelligent in a certain aspect , so they would rather make a bad decision than let their wife who is better in that area handle it and that's difficult for w woman to watch handle since she will also suffer from the consequences of his bad decision.

I think most women would have no problem with submission as long as the man loves her like Christ loves the Church. I believe that's why those 2 were put together. Why would I have problem submitting to someone I know will always put my needs above his like Christ did with us. The problem with submission in today's marriage is that it's very one sided , you can't be having affairs, getting back from work at the same time as your wife and still never helping out around the house and many other things that don't depict love and be suprised she's finding it hard to submit to you

Also some would argue that submission comes first so the woman should submit regardless and the man would change however we have seen that that rarely ever happens. Most of our mothers and grandmothers were submission yet it didn't change the men from adulterers who were often inconsiderate. Many of the drunks and financially irresponsible men ruined their families financially despite the wife's submission so the younger generation has learnt to apply common sense

adebisicutie:


Ok I get you . That's Precisely my point , I won't give my money to an addict drunk or a financially irresponsible man and yes it's very possible he developed those traits after marriage . I won't let someone ruin my life and that of my kids

I think most women would have no problem with submission as long as the man loves her like Christ loves the Church. I believe that's why those 2 were put together. Why would I have problem submitting to someone I know will always put my needs above his like Christ did with us. The problem with submission in today's marriage is that it's very one sided , you can't be having affairs, getting back from work at the same time as your wife and still never helping out around the house and many other things that don't depict love and be suprised she's finding it hard to submit to you

Yea, that's the point. I agree with you on that, leaving the Bible and christ part out.

...I'm back...hard rowing session tonight. I absolutely hate the thought of it and dread it's approach - do it once a week. But I'm always tremendously pleased when I complete it, and can scarce walk for a few minutes afterwards. I do 10'000 metres. Long ting. Red bream and salad to replenish. Now back to our discussion;

Stillfire:
This is not our language, you know. The English language is clear on what submission means. I did not define it.

That is simply an unhelpful and reductionist approach. We have the whole of the scriptural narrative regards the husband and wife dynamic. At the very least we can see that the flip side of the submission coin is love.

At a time women/wives were basically considered chattel, that was an unheard of novation - not to mention affording women equality by insisting on monogamy. Something some other religions and cultures still don't do today.

Stillfire:
Therefore, if there are times the woman gets her way, in the English context she is not practicing a submissive behavior (a behavior that does not speak up or challenge a point) but rather an assertive behavior where sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. Agree or not?

Totally disagree, for the following reasons;

1. Your language betrays an adversarial approach to family decision making - or indeed, any domestic relationship. "Gets her way", I can't speak for those who approach things thus - burger marriage, processed meat relationship

2. I really don't get an approach that is both reductionist and extreme. So if a woman does not "slavishly" obey her husband, she is not submissive? Is there anything in the bible to indicate that a wife should not have input, discuss, advice or counsel on decisions that affect the family as a whole? Or does the demand of a husband to love, honour, cherish and nurture his wife like his own flesh even remotely suggest treating her like a slave or expecting her to adopt the posture of one?

This is no more than the projection of persistent - and bad - cultural norms or personal sour experiences onto scripture. No one can honestly read the bible, specifically the instructions to husbands and wives and the narrative around spousal relationships from OT to new, and come to the conclusion you've reached - I vehemently disagree sef.

Stillfire:
Christianity might try to twist the word but it is sufficient to say on that premise of the English context and definition, Christian women are not submissive because today they have the rights to speak up

Christianity does not twist, it balances and it contextualises. Marriage does not hinge solely on submission, any more than it hinges solely on love. And Christian wives have always had the right to speak up - that does not mean they are not or cannot be submissive.

Not just, woefully reductionist and unnecessarily extreme, but poor exegesis to form and reject a theology of marriage on the literal/secular interpretation of one word. That's agenda/ideologically driven..fe...fe...fem... !

Stillfire:
And if we were to debate this in the law court, the correct term would not be submission to define the christian woman.

You can debate the literal meaning of submission till the cows come home.That will not give you an accurate rendering of the biblical injunctions or scriptural narrative around marriage.

Stillfire:
You did not answer my question on why the church has taken a 360 degree in not following Paul's ideology in silencing women in church. That is an exemplary criteria of being submissive as a christian woman.

An oversight apologies. I see it as submissive to male leadership in the church - they are not to speak as in to take the lead or assume authority over adult/mature males. 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35, 1 Timothy 2:12.

To me it makes sense and aligns with submission in the home. It's why I don't agree with female elders/pastors - which could give rise to a weird inversion of the authority principle. A church is really just an aggregation of families.


TV

PreciousBro:
Ooh Sorry mehn, but I'm only responsible for what I say not how you interpret it

No worries 'Bro But going by what you wrote below, I think I read you exactly right.

PreciousBro:
That power struggle was just me painting a bad scenario in a situation where things get sour to the detriment of the marriage or what not. Because we can't deny the fact that these things do happen, it wasn't me indicating that the man should instigate such happenings just for a test of his woman's ability to submit. Nah

I believe a man should remain calm and mature in all situations - never give leave to emotion. Although I can see that in real life things could get tense.

PreciousBro:
My post also didn't indicate that the pre-requisite to a successful marriage is intelligence based,nor any vain criteria, however, I do note that intelligence in it self is a number in the content of maturity.

No real qualms here either.

Is it pure intelligence as in ones IQ or how smarty/savvy one is. Is it expertise or knowledge in a particular area? To me intelligence is way over-rated. Especially the way women seem to prioritise it. Its more the kind of thing a woman will feel she must say she desires or is important - no matter how intelligent she herself is. Usually when they engage men they want to be entertained and feted, not discuss particle dynamics


TV

Hahhaha,@TV01, of course a man should always endeavour to maintain that calm ,cool and mature nature before his woman, but intricacies do occur na, you have agreed with me already.

Except you take exception that if such do happen then it is the man's fault ? I don't believe you are in anyway implying men are robots and as such shouldn't turn their hair on, no ?

I've seen men with the coolness of a fridge lose their cool and turn hot like a cooked porridge all because of their nagging unreasonably troublesome wife.

Omo, its epic!

Submission?

I have been married a long time and the last time I heard that term in relation to my person was the bible verse I read at my wedding ceremony. Frankly, I have never given it deep any thought

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