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The End Of Christian America by christ4mi(f): 1:51pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
The percentage of self-identified Christians has fallen 10 points in the past two decades. How that statistic explains who we are now—and what, as a nation, in USA they have choose to be realist not idealist. Fairy tales of Bible will soon be over, And we shall celebrate the fall of christianity. The religion of lies and confusion. We choose Democracy, freedom over Crazy ass Christian religion. No wonder America is the best place to visit in the world. Check this for ur own use ''http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002''
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Re: The End Of Christian America by Horus(m): 2:42pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
You may ask, does politics have to do with Christianity? If you closely examine its history and heroes, you will find facts saying that this fabricated religion is nothing but politics. It has been the vehicle that enables the evil one (Azazl) to pursue and reach his political aims. The proof is that everywhere the doctrine of Christianity has been propagated, its recipients became the subjects of that nation which sponsored the teachers. From that point onward, every facet of their lives was governed by and according to the whims of that nation. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 4:43pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
christ4mi: what an obtuse way of thinking. America's foundation is steeped in christianity . . . it is absurd to praise the roof of a house and claim you have no need for a foundation. Why are you "celebrating" the fall of christianity? How has christianity been a problem to you in American society? Do you actually believe that christianity is the very antithesis of democracy and freedom? Do you air head know that the christian founding fathers where the ones who bequeathed you with the democracy and freedom you now stupidly claim you chose? Why is there no "democracy and freedom" in predominantly muslim states, communists like China and North Korea? Surely there is no christianity there so they shld all be "free" right? Is America the best place to visit because it is now kicking out christianity? Is China then a good place to visit since christianity is pretty much under the cosh? You dont seem to be able to utilise the space between your ears very well. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by TayoD1(m): 6:45pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
@Davidylan, |
Re: The End Of Christian America by yarodin: 7:29pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
Christian America but yet they supported Slavery, Racial divisions etc. Abeg they should go sit their ass down somewhere. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by kevd2: 8:10pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
The fact is that Christainity has been hijacked by politicians ever since constantinople, the roman emperor made it a state Religion.The spread of christianity despite heavy persecution during that time was a means by the emperor to unite his kingdom.TRUE CHRISTAINITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS- that is why Jesus never entered political debates during his time, hw always emphasized on the heart and soul of a man.That was also why the jews never accepted him as messiah or recognized him. Over the course of history, christianity has been used as a vehicle for some o the most narcissitic agenda's in History, because any religion require's intellkectual surrender to achiee political aims and is a means of personal or group identity - The catholic church used it as a means of achieving power and land. -Used to justify slave trade. -Even used for Nazi propagand. -Used by the Neoconvicts in america for impearlistic purposes. - used by Nigerian politicians and pastors to loot and decieve the masses. But True Christianity has also brought out the best in Men. Democracy today has christian underpinnings, Great men like Martin Luther King used it to advance great causes.and a lot of good christians over the world are doing great things with christianty. To all the Atheists True Christainity devoid of politics is what jesus christ emphasied on and is still being practiced by many today.Imagine what the world would be if there is no religion today.Christainty fills a void in amns soul that society cannot fix. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by noetic(m): 8:46pm On Apr 08, 2009 |
davidylan: u said everytin. . , , . . |
Re: The End Of Christian America by ScanLess: 10:50am On Apr 09, 2009 |
[b] Dan 2:31-46 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. 46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him. (KJV) [/b] Christianity is the devil's worst nightmare. To all human dreamers; time is running out the day Christians leave America, that Kingdom falls and the Kingdom of the Messiah takes over (completely) Kingdom is a government word,and humans hardly practice governance without politics so it may not be possible to remove politics from Christianity But when Christ comes, government will be perfect but we have to be ready |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 1:52pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
i always wonder at the speed with which davidylan tries to yoke his religion and democracy, which is far older than his religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMOCRACY Democracy is a form of government in which power is held indirectly by citizens in a free electoral system. It is derived from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía (information)), "popular government",[1] which was coined from δῆμος (dêmos), "people" and κράτος (krátos), "rule, strength" in the middle of the 5th-4th century BC to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens following a popular uprising in 508 BC.[2] Democracy has its origins in Ancient Greece.[16][17] However other cultures have significantly contributed to the evolution of democracy such as Ancient India[18], Ancient Rome[16], Europe[16], and North and South America.[19] Democracy has been called the "last form of government" and has spread considerably across the globe.[20] Suffrage has been expanded in many jurisdictions over time from relatively narrow groups (such as wealthy men of a particular ethnic group), but still remains a controversial issue with regard to disputed territories, areas with significant immigration, and countries that exclude certain demographic groups. and in the beginning, the us was not even truly democratic in the first place. . .or would you prefer to ascribe the following to Christian values 18th and 19th centuries i keep telling you, the system of government that is truly linked to your religion is monarchy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Right_of_Kings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_state_in_medieval_Europe anyway, if tomorrow, the world reverts to a single empire as the preferred/popular form of government, you people will find a way to piggyback onto it, and it will be ascribed to judeo Christian tradition, not so? its so odd that the same people who trumpet democracy and Christian values get upset when minorities that are anathema to Christianity (gays etal) start pushing for their rights under a democratic dispensation. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Horus(m): 2:06pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Hence, belief is ignorance and religious beliefs without the facts is ignorance;So demand that anyone attempting to impose upon you their religious beliefs to produce the facts. If you look in the midle of the words be[b]lie[/b]ve and be[b]lie[/b]f you will see the word lie. The most deceptive word in religion is the word "believe" or "belief", Because a person can believe anything and this means that a person can believe,and be one hundrend percent wrong.But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information."To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt. Knowledge can be checked out by one or more of three test: Experience, Evidence and Reason. Knowledge is always logical and it reasons out. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 2:20pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
The Economist Intelligence Unit’s Democracy index is based on five categories: electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture. The condition of having free and fair competitive elections, and satisfying related aspects of political freedom, is clearly the basic requirement of all definitions. oddly enough america placed 17th. . . The organisation looked at a wide range of democratic variables before dividing the 167 countries surveyed into four categories: full democracies, flawed democracies, hybrid regimes and authoritarian regimes. note that this occured under the watch of a 'born again' Christian. "In Britain, too, there has been some erosion of civil liberties but also a shocking decline in political participation," according to the report. maybe since they are catholics, and thus in davidylan's book not true Christians sweden , Iceland(of the lesbian PM) , Norway etal must also be built on 'strong Christian principles', not so?
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Re: The End Of Christian America by Pataki: 3:06pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
oyb:Why did you skip out Netherlands? Can you see how you failed in your arguments as well? At least I have lived in the Netherlands. Obviously, you know the truth, but you are so pigheaded to accept it. oyb:Would the same be said of Islam? Christian values allow for democracy. That is a well established fact. Would your sharia law place room for democracy or for people to start pushing for their rights?? It is rather odd when those who are antipodean to Christianity start opening their gob and ranting out discussions beyond them when the Islamic tenets has never made provisions to substantiate and validate their arguments. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 9:32pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Why did you skip out Netherlands? Can you see how you failed in your arguments as well? At least I have lived in the Netherlands. Obviously, you know the truth, but you are so pigheaded to accept it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands enjoy The Netherlands is a densely populated country. It is known for its traditional windmills, tulips, cheese, clogs (wooden shoes), delftware and gouda pottery, for its bicycles, and in addition, traditional values and civil virtues such as its social tolerance. The country has more recently become known for its rather liberal policies toward drugs, prostitution, homosexuality, and euthanasia. It also has one of the most free market capitalist economies in the world, ranking 12th of 157 countries on one index.[5] i wonder how u, who openly advocated stoning those bloody gays to death could cope over there. ;Dcould that be why you relocated to the UK? . do christian values accomodate the highlighted? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by bawomolo(m): 10:01pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Would the same be said of Islam? Christian values allow for democracy. christian values don't exactly allow for democracy? Europe won't be as "liberal" as it is today if it stayed under the grip of the catholic and orthodox churches. The Greeks weren't christian. It's funny Christians seem to be forget what led Europe into the dark ages before not exactly christian guys like david hume and john locked saved it with reason. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 10:06pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
bawomolo: The first statement in bold is based on what? The last one? I happen to be a Christian whose values actually PROMOTE democracy. So how can it then be said that Christian values DO NOT promote Democracy? We all know for a fact that it seems part of human nature to want to impose one’s will on others. Basically, human nature to be in wield power in one form or another, over the next man, and since most all Christians happen to be HUMAN BEINGS after all, does that then mean all human attributes exhibited by Christian humans have more to do with Christianity itself ? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by asha80(m): 10:20pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
The statement in bold is based on what? I happen to be a Christian whose values actually PROMOTE democracy. So How can it then be said that Christian values DO NOT promote Democracy? Are you speaking for yourself or are you speaking of christianity in general? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by bawomolo(m): 10:21pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Kobojunkie: You as a person isn't an adequate enough sample size. Christianity in Europe achieved it's political peak when Europe was ran by monarchies and fiefdom's. The theocracies of Europe weren't democratic, they typically opposed labor rights and land ownership for peasants. The catholic church at some point owned 30 % of the land in Poland (a long time ago of course). Monarchies were seen as having divine rights while the Pope or the bishops of the orthodox church were the boss of the Monarchs. Europe didn't evolve into what it is today until the enlightenment era. Did the christian church propose the magna carta? The concept of democracy is old and advanced without Christianity. The igbo's had a form of democracy and sure weren't christian. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 10:23pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
asha 80:Well, before you can speak of Christianity in general, you have to at least be willing to show where Christianity itself states that democracy is not a part of our values. If a group of Christians choose to impose their will on others, while another group chooses to push for democratic values, can we conclude than that all of Christianity pushes to impose its will on others? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 10:26pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
bawomolo: That still does not prove your statement to be factual. It just shows that you seem to be willing to judge ALL of Christianity by the ills of a group which you have chosen to focus on, never mind that at other times in history, other groups of Christians have shown themselves to be more in favor of democracy claiming it to be part of their values rather than imposing their will on the masses. Even during the inquisition, there was a large group of Christians, maybe not as organized who fought to have the ills invoked on the people by those who claim to be Christians stopped. They fought against the organized church and thousands of these Christians were slaughtered, was there sample size not large enough? What I detest the most is how people make it seem as if some NEUTRAL powers came in to save the day, when in fact it was Christians who ushered in the age of enlightenment and other Christians who died fighting for the end of all the death and ills in the name of religion. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by asha80(m): 10:28pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
ok |
Re: The End Of Christian America by bawomolo(m): 10:35pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Kobojunkie: I'm not arguing about Christians who were in favor of democracy, all i'm saying is that the Christian leadership (especially the Catholic church) didn't embrace democracy nor was it responsible for the advancement of it. Ideas such as freedom of expression and freedom of religion that we experience in democracies today were typically challenged by the Christian establishment of the time. Even Martin Luther supported the discrimination of the Jews. The church had no problem with the colonization or enslavement of Africans as long as attempts were made to baptize them. This isn't to say all Christians are against freedom of the individual. There is little evidence that shows Democracy thrived based on the Christian doctrine. We would just agree to disagree but Christianity can't lay claim to democracy |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 10:35pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
religion and democracy are mutually or at best 80% exclusive a lot of the freedoms a true democratic society allows are anathema to both Islam and Christianity people like to trumpet about freedom, but what they really mean is freedom to do things they don't find offensive we all witnessed the hulabaloo on the homosexuals thread, did we not. would allowing homosexuals full expression etal go in line with Islamic or Christian values? the same can be said about prostitution. from a purely democratic perspective, there is nothing wrong with prostitution as long as it is regulated by the governement (to control STDs, etal) . would any christain be comfortable living in a nation in which prostitution was legal. christians have fought against pornography. if i remeber correctly kobojunkie was extremely bothered by BBA. it was in a long ago thread. . .she was almost calling for its censorship/proscription, and some other folks were pointing out that that can't be done in a democratic dispensation |
Re: The End Of Christian America by bawomolo(m): 10:36pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
when in fact it was Christians who ushered in the age of enlightenment John Locke , David Hume , Thomas Huxley and the likes were predominantly not christian. They were free-thinkers. The works from Greek and Iberian (muslim) civilizations were ignored or destroyed by christians during the dark ages. You seem to have a bias here. OYB - you have been dropping knowledge lately. i respect your objectivity. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 10:41pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
OYB - you have been dropping knowledge lately. i respect your objectivity. who me? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 10:42pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
bawomolo:WOW!! We reduce all the works done during the age of enlightment to just a small group who are not put down as Christians? So Christians cannot be free thinkers?? Come on dude!!! This has nothing to do with bias but more to do with you trying real hard to somehow push your claim that religion is against democracy!! Anywho, if you want to believe that, that is fine by me!! |
Re: The End Of Christian America by bawomolo(m): 10:46pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
oyb: yeye man, you no sey your head dey swell Kobojunkie: many of the leaders of the Enlightenment era were not Christians. David hume was a deist, the list goes on. Although he was a bishop, the church made a great opposition to the works of Charles Darwins. The principles of freedom of the individual and freedom of thought till this day is opposed by the Christian Establishment. In the US, Northern states like Vermont and Massachusetts are theoretically more democratic than their more christian counterparts in the good ole Bible Belt. We are talking about Christianity and not religions in general. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 10:47pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
oyb:But, nothing about democracy DEMANDS that Christians/muslims not be able to vote what they believe in a democracy? Isn’t the whole point of a DEMOCRACY that the people be allowed to vote their view on issues, regardless of the views of another party or person? oyb:Prostitution has NOTHING to do with DEMOCRACY!! I am not sure what in the world you are getting at but I think you are mixing seriously different concepts up here in your bid to make some vague point. oyb:Isn’t it the essence of democracy to have the people elect those who they, the people, CHRISTIANS OR MUSLIMS OR NON, choose to represent their views/values? oyb:I am sorry @Oyb, what does BBA mean? OFCOURSE I will be freaken bothered by some stuff and not others. What the frell are you going on about now? I am not allowed to vote my view in a DEMOCRACY? democracy definition de•moc•racy (di mäk′rə sē) noun pl. democracies -•cies 1. government in which the people hold the ruling power either directly or through elected representatives; rule by the ruled 2. a country, state, etc. with such government 3. majority rule 4. the principle of equality of rights, opportunity, and treatment, or the practice of this principle 5. the common people, esp. as the wielders of political power |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 10:52pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
going by this, freethinking and Christianity are well mutually exclusive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_thinking Modern movements oh well, maybe kobojunkie is right. . . |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 11:05pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
in the homosexuals thread, it was also pointed out that democracy is about protecting the rights of minorities. Kobojunkie: in the homosexuals thread, it was also pointed out that democracy is also about protecting the rights of minorities. i even forgot. . . another point that i made. . .if civil rights had been put to a vote. . . Kobojunkie: perhaps i was rambling here. . . Kobojunkie: bba - big brother africa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Obscenity under a democractic dispensation, though voters may find pornography objectionable, it constitutes free speech. that was why i said that when people talk about freedom, what they really mean is freedom to do things THEY do not find offensive/anathema |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Kobojunkie: 11:12pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
oyb:So far so good, but protecting the rights of the minority has nothing to do with imposing the views of the minority on the majority, just so you know. oyb:Essentially, under your democratic dispensation, I have no right to speak out freely against what I find objectionable because that freedom does not pertain to people like me? So, they are free to do as they choose but I am not free to do what I choose, which is speak out against their actions? I have no right to be offended by the actions of another because in your idea of a democracy, I lose my right to do so? Ok. Why in the world is it government by the people if the people are limited in what they can be outraged/ offended/ take offence with? I still have no idea why you are in some twist trying to tie the two together, only in the end it seems you are deviating even further from the definition of democracy. Are you in essence saying we are not allowed to be human in a democracy? |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Hauwa1: 11:32pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
Poster, I don't think Christianity is ever going to end in America. Some of them not observing chrinstianity are waiting till old age. God to churches on Sunday and see, still filling up. White pple are still carrying it on, just that some are trying to separate being a christian with being religious. |
Re: The End Of Christian America by Nobody: 11:37pm On Apr 09, 2009 |
i am simply saying this - in a democracy, while we have the right to object to things like pornography, that is all we can do. we cannot make them go away. in countries like china or the middle east, where there is much less freedom than in the us, you would probably not have to worry about your children surfing on porn sites or dating sites etal, because the governements heavily censor the internet. that most definitely is not the case in america, is it? as a christian, are you comfortable with that sort of freedom? |
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