Image123:
i wonder what you have benefitted since "God" opened your eyes. mtschewwwwwweeeeeeewwwwww.

Lanre747:


All religions can inspire change in a person - but they are man made. Only the law and prophets hold true. I am not interested in human perception of what is good etc. I only pursue the truth. Sorry if this throws a spanner at your works.

Image123:

i wonder what you have benefitted since "God" opened your eyes. Don't be shy to share.

easternguy1:
Isiahs child name was not Immanuel. So what are you saying

Lanre747:


Let me shed light:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

THE LORD shall call him Immanuel... Did He?

Isaiah 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

He did not say "You shall name him Immanuel".
And even if this did not refer to this particular child, your thoughts should lead you to consider that whoever this child was, he would have to be born in the time of Isaiah, NOT hundreds of years later. The NT writers basically retrofitted prophecies, lol.

Thanks

Lanre747:


Let me shed light:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

THE LORD shall call him Immanuel... Did He?

Isaiah 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

He did not say "You shall name him Immanuel".
And even if this did not refer to this particular child, your thoughts should lead you to consider that whoever this child was, he would have to be born in the time of Isaiah, NOT hundreds of years later. The NT writers basically retrofitted prophecies, lol.

Thanks

ayoku777:


There are some prophecies in scripture that can be called "Dual Prophecy". Either because they were fulfilled in two persons in scripture or because they were fulfilled two times in history.

And there are a few prophecies like that in scripture.

This is one;

Gen 26v4 -And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in THY SEED shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Here God is talking about two persons at the same time. About Jacob (Israel) and about Jesus Christ. This prophecy was fulfilled literally or physically in Jacob (Israel), and was fulfilled spiritually or symbolically in Jesus (It also will eventually be fulfilled physically and eternally in Jesus in the age to come).

Both Jacob and Jesus were both the seed of Abraham. Jacob is the seed of Abraham after the flesh; and Jesus is the seed of Abraham both after the flesh and after the Spirit.

Gal 3v16 -Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here is another dual prophecy

1Chronicles 22v9 -Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

v10 -He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

This is also a dual prophecy. This prophecy was talking literally about Solomon; but also symbolically or spiritually about Jesus. The prophecy was fulfilled in both Solomon and Jesus. Solomon and Jesus were both the seed of David, and they both built God a house.

Romans 1v3 -Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 16v18 -And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hebrews 3v3 -For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath BUILDED THE HOUSE hath more honour than the house.

There are many others verses in the old testament that are dual prophecies like these. Prophecies that were literally fulfilled in a biblical character but also fulfilled spiritually or symbolically, and even sometimes also physcially in Jesus.

Its good and needful to know and note that much of the old testaments is the veiled and sealed revelation of Christ Himself, unveiled and unsealed in the new testament.

A lot of the prophecies of the old testament mirror Christ, and what He came to do; is doing, or will do. So even though some prophecies were literally fulfilled in another biblical character, they were also fulfilled or are being fulfilled spiritually and symybolically in Christ Himself.

Many bible characters; Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Immanuel, Cyrus, Zerubbabel, to mention a few; all had prophecies about them that also mirror the Christ. Their lives and/or ministries are old testament types and shadows of the life and ministry of Jesus.

So most times, literal prophecies about these men are also symbolic or spiritual or also physical prophecies about Jesus Himself. Making them dual prophecies.

Shalom

Lanre747:


When people have no valid argument, they mount a personal attack.
Let's not get sidetracked. Have I shown that Isaiah 7 is not about Jesus Christ? Yes.
If you are satisfied, I will move on to another prophecy. If not, please state your case.

gbaskiphylle:

This is one of the reasons I don't like all this theological explanations giving excuses for falsehood...which one is dual prophesy again?...the scripture cited and explained by the op is straightforward...of what benefit was the prophesy of Jesus birth to Ahaz?...When errors are pointed out,we either attack the op or give flimsy explanations instead of looking at the issue objectively...Thanks Op...I totally agree with you!

malvisguy212:
Please read the previous
verse in Isaiah 7:13, "And he said,Hear ye now, O HOUSE OF DAVID ."
Notice the Lord is not speaking to Ahaz directly, but to the O HOUSE OF DAVID. It is a sign for the " house of David", it is a future confirmation and does not have to be fulfilled right there and then in Ahaz's time.
OK, now notice verse 16 says, "before the child (Jesus) shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good…"
Was Assyria forsaken by the Lord before Jesus knew about good and evil? Yes. Assyria was forsaken before Jesus was born in the flesh! Therefore, this prophesy is not contradictory, but in harmony. The Bible says Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled in Matthew 1:23 and Luke 1:31 with the birth of Jesus.
Other reasons why I believe this "child" refers to Jesus is in
Isaiah 8:14, "And he shall be for a
sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."
This was fulfilled by Jesus in Romans 9:33 and 1 Peter2:8. Isaiah 9:6-7 describes this "child" from Isaiah 7:14 in more detail. Only Jesus fits this
description of this "child".

gbaskiphylle:

This is one of the reasons I don't like all this theological explanations giving excuses for falsehood...which one is dual prophesy again?...the scripture cited and explained by the op is straightforward...of what benefit was the prophesy of Jesus birth to Ahaz?...When errors are pointed out,we either attack the op or give flimsy explanations instead of looking at the issue objectively...Thanks Op...I totally agree with you!

gbaskiphylle:

This is one of the reasons I don't like all this theological explanations giving excuses for falsehood...which one is dual prophesy again?...the scripture cited and explained by the op is straightforward...of what benefit was the prophesy of Jesus birth to Ahaz?...When errors are pointed out,we either attack the op or give flimsy explanations instead of looking at the issue objectively...Thanks Op...I totally agree with you!

gbaskiphylle:

This is one of the reasons I don't like all this theological explanations giving excuses for falsehood...which one is dual prophesy again?...the scripture cited and explained by the op is straightforward...of what benefit was the prophesy of Jesus birth to Ahaz?...When errors are pointed out,we either attack the op or give flimsy explanations instead of looking at the issue objectively...Thanks Op...I totally agree with you!

Image123:


Don't be ridiculous, there is no personal attack. You should not be ashamed of your testimony and its benefits. "i wonder what you have benefitted since "God" opened your eyes. Don't be shy to share.
Do not attempt to detract from the main issue, which is where you are going or taking us. You are trying to tell us that Jesus is unreal or useless, that the New Testament is unnecessary, that we should stick to the Old Testament. Something like that. You'd really have to be crazy to think that i will take that without your telling me its benefits. What are you selling to us? You claim and pray that God should open our eyes, so you tell us what you have enjoyed than us since God supposedly opened your eyes. Tell me, why i should leave Jesus and all that He has done for me, and follow you and your interpretations/conclusions. It is that simple. Don't just come and confuse everybody with english and greek. Tell us where you are taking us to.

ayoku777:


What is flimsy about the explanations of dual prophecy? You can say you don't agree with the explanation but not that it is flimsy.

I showed clearly from scriptures prophecies that were referring to two people at the same time, or that were fulfilled by two people in scripture. Those are what is called dual prophecies. Prophecies that were both direct to individuals and also messianic.

If you've not heard of it before then do more study of the bible, with an open, objective mind; not with a mind on a fault-finding mission.

The dual prophesy of Christ birth in the prophesy of Isaiah to Ahaz doesn't have to be of any relevance to Ahaz, because that part was not for him, but for those who will be reading it many years later in the scripture when it is unveiled.

Did Cyrus the persian have any idea also that what he was doing to Babylon was a prophecy from God about him; and also a type and shadow of the ministry of the Christ that was to come?

Did Zerubbabel have any idea too? Did Aaron the high priest too?

All these men are types and shadow of the life and ministry of Christ. And they didn't have any idea for the most part that they were. It is under the new testament that we see all these mysteries that were sealed and veiled under the old testament now unsealed and unveiled.

Even the bible characters that were given those prophecies couldn't see its connection to the coming Messiah, even though the prophecies given to them were also partly messianic prophecies about the coming Christ.

A prophecy can be fulfilled by two people in scripture. Many prophecies of what happened literally to some bible characters were also a prophetic foreshadow of what happened to Christ much later. E.g Jacob and Jesus; Solomon and Jesus etc

Such are called dual prophecies.

Just as the birth of that child was a sign to Ahaz that God would save and deliver Judah from the hands of the kings of Syria and Israel; it also secondly foreshadows how that the virgin birth of Christ was also a sign of God's salvation plan for the world.

Ofcourse Ahaz couldn't have known how that sign or prophecy was equally partly connected to the Messiah (a messianic prophecy); because the revelation of Christ was sealed under the old. But it was also a prophecy of the coming birth of Christ and it was unsealed in the new testament.

Matthew 1v22 -Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

v23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God's prophecy to Isaac was fulfilled physically in Jacob and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus. And both of them were Isaac's seed. The prophecy was both a literal prophecy about Jacob and a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Also God's prophecy to David was also fulfilled physically by Solomon and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus; and both of them are David's seed.

Its you that need to be objective to see that a prophecy can be talking about two people at the same time. And a prophecy can be fulfilled in two people. Such is a dual prophecy.

The scripture about the birth of this child was both a literal prophecy about the child and also a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Shalom[/s]

Lanre747:


Oga I haven't asked you to do anything yet. All I did was to show that Isaiah 7 is not about Jesus. Your disciples have responded by saying God sends His word and it comes to pass, not once, but twice. That is fine, I know many shall read and understand. Further prophecies to follow sir.

Image123:


They are not my disciples,don't be devilish. i don't care what you say, nor am i interested in buying your stories. You need to state clearly what you have to offer. You're saying in summary to reject Jesus, which is a most foolish proposition. But I'm being gentlemanly and logical and patient to ask you, FOR WHAT? To whom or what are you taking us after Jesus? Because we've seen Jesus, so handsome than anyone. What do you have, better than Jesus? That's not too hard to answer, is it?

Lanre747:



Isaiah 53:2 "He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him."

Glad you agree with me Isaiah 53 can't be talking about your Jesus, because you just told me he fine pass your wife

Darn, and i was going to do a whole thread on it, but it seems we already agree Jesus aint in Isaiah 53 either

Where is He sef?

tartar9:
nonsense! the prophecy clearly refers to Ahaz.if it can be used for more than one person, then it could be used for thousands of persons after Ahaz, what now makes it a prophecy?

ayoku777:


How many virgin births were recorded in the bible for this prophecy to be applicable for thousands of persons?

tartar9:
good! another deception,the correct translation is "young woman" not virgin

ayoku777:


What is flimsy about the explanations of dual prophecy? You can say you don't agree with the explanation but not that it is flimsy.

I showed clearly from scriptures prophecies that were referring to two people at the same time, or that were fulfilled by two people in scripture. Those are what is called dual prophecies. Prophecies that were both direct to individuals and also messianic.

If you've not heard of it before then do more study of the bible, with an open, objective mind; not with a mind on a fault-finding mission.

The dual prophesy of Christ birth in the prophesy of Isaiah to Ahaz doesn't have to be of any relevance to Ahaz, because that part was not for him, but for those who will be reading it many years later in the scripture when it is unveiled.

Did Cyrus the persian have any idea also that what he was doing to Babylon was a prophecy from God about him; and also a type and shadow of the ministry of the Christ that was to come?

Did Zerubbabel have any idea too? Did Aaron the high priest too?

All these men are types and shadow of the life and ministry of Christ. And they didn't have any idea for the most part that they were. It is under the new testament that we see all these mysteries that were sealed and veiled under the old testament now unsealed and unveiled.

Even the bible characters that were given those prophecies couldn't see its connection to the coming Messiah, even though the prophecies given to them were also partly messianic prophecies about the coming Christ.

A prophecy can be fulfilled by two people in scripture. Many prophecies of what happened literally to some bible characters were also a prophetic foreshadow of what happened to Christ much later. E.g Jacob and Jesus; Solomon and Jesus etc

Such are called dual prophecies.

Just as the birth of that child was a sign to Ahaz that God would save and deliver Judah from the hands of the kings of Syria and Israel; it also secondly foreshadows how that the virgin birth of Christ was also a sign of God's salvation plan for the world.

Ofcourse Ahaz couldn't have known how that sign or prophecy was equally partly connected to the Messiah (a messianic prophecy); because the revelation of Christ was sealed under the old. But it was also a prophecy of the coming birth of Christ and it was unsealed in the new testament.

Matthew 1v22 -Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

v23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God's prophecy to Isaac was fulfilled physically in Jacob and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus. And both of them were Isaac's seed. The prophecy was both a literal prophecy about Jacob and a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Also God's prophecy to David was also fulfilled physically by Solomon and fulfilled spiritually by Jesus; and both of them are David's seed.

Its you that need to be objective to see that a prophecy can be talking about two people at the same time. And a prophecy can be fulfilled in two people. Such is a dual prophecy.

The scripture about the birth of this child was both a literal prophecy about the child and also a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Shalom

ayoku777:


There are some prophecies in scripture that can be called "Dual Prophecy". Either because they were fulfilled in two persons in scripture or because they were fulfilled two times in history.

And there are a few prophecies like that in scripture.

This is one;

Gen 26v4 -And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in THY SEED shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Here God is talking about two persons at the same time. About Jacob (Israel) and about Jesus Christ. This prophecy was fulfilled literally or physically in Jacob (Israel), and was fulfilled spiritually or symbolically in Jesus (It also will eventually be fulfilled physically and eternally in Jesus in the age to come).

Both Jacob and Jesus were both the seed of Abraham. Jacob is the seed of Abraham after the flesh; and Jesus is the seed of Abraham both after the flesh and after the Spirit.

Gal 3v16 -Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here is another dual prophecy

1Chronicles 22v9 -Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

v10 -He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

This is also a dual prophecy. This prophecy was talking literally about Solomon; but also symbolically or spiritually about Jesus. The prophecy was fulfilled in both Solomon and Jesus. Solomon and Jesus were both the seed of David, and they both built God a house.

Romans 1v3 -Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Matthew 16v18 -And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Hebrews 3v3 -For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath BUILDED THE HOUSE hath more honour than the house.

There are many others verses in the old testament that are dual prophecies like these. Prophecies that were literally fulfilled in a biblical character but also fulfilled spiritually or symbolically, and even sometimes also physcially in Jesus.

Its good and needful to know and note that much of the old testaments is the veiled and sealed revelation of Christ Himself, unveiled and unsealed in the new testament.

A lot of the prophecies of the old testament mirror Christ, and what He came to do; is doing, or will do. So even though some prophecies were literally fulfilled in another biblical character, they were also fulfilled or are being fulfilled spiritually and symybolically in Christ Himself.

Many bible characters; Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Immanuel, Cyrus, Zerubbabel, to mention a few; all had prophecies about them that also mirror the Christ. Their lives and/or ministries are old testament types and shadows of the life and ministry of Jesus.

So most times, literal prophecies about these men are also symbolic or spiritual or also physical prophecies about Jesus Himself. Making them dual prophecies.

Shalom

Image123:


Don't be ridiculous, there is no personal attack. You should not be ashamed of your testimony and its benefits. "i wonder what you have benefitted since "God" opened your eyes. Don't be shy to share.
Do not attempt to detract from the main issue, which is where you are going or taking us. You are trying to tell us that Jesus is unreal or useless, that the New Testament is unnecessary, that we should stick to the Old Testament. Something like that. You'd really have to be crazy to think that i will take that without your telling me its benefits. What are you selling to us? You claim and pray that God should open our eyes, so you tell us what you have enjoyed than us since God supposedly opened your eyes. Tell me, why i should leave Jesus and all that He has done for me, and follow you and your interpretations/conclusions. It is that simple. Don't just come and confuse everybody with english and greek. Tell us where you are taking us to.

Image123:


They are not my disciples,don't be devilish. i don't care what you say, nor am i interested in buying your stories. You need to state clearly what you have to offer. You're saying in summary to reject Jesus, which is a most foolish proposition. But I'm being gentlemanly and logical and patient to ask you, FOR WHAT? To whom or what are you taking us after Jesus? Because we've seen Jesus, so handsome than anyone. What do you have, better than Jesus? That's not too hard to answer, is it?

David0:
Even the devil quoted Bible passages to Jesus, Jesus never said he was lying, but Jesus also quoted Bible passages suggesting thr are better options.

Op, stop reading d Bible wt a closed mind. Stop reading d Bible and trying to apply logic like d devil did. U just will never understand that way.

U hv to seek God's own spiritual understanding.

My piece of advise.

chuna1985:
"""v23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us"""

A virgin also gave birth in India and his name is Krishna... I guess this is triple prophesy. Ode.