I have already told u why I am not an atheist https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-279631.0.html
I also told u why I am not a muslim https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-280415.0.html
I think it is fair i tell u why I am a christian

let me start by stating that I did not inherit christianity, was not born a christian neither was i a miracle seeker who turned to christianity (I have nothing against this group of people, just feel the need to make the clarification). I am a rational believer of the christian faith, which explains why I can CONFIDENTLY debate and defend my beliefs, quite unlike the atheist who CANNOT produce a scientific or intellectual evidence to support their belief/disbelief in the non-existence of GOD, or the muslims who cannot simply state why exactly they are muslims. . . . . this thread is not about the atheist or muslims. . . . It is simply to educate everyone about why I am a christian.

So as usual I objectively asked myself, why EXACTLY am I a christian? The following are the intellectually rich reasons I could come up with.



1. The fair reward:

I believe u know what christianity is all about. Its simply about my acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as my Lord and GOD and the acceptance of His Gift of Salvation.
In return Jesus expects me to reflect the works of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
—Galatians 5:22-23   and also to abide by His new commandment stated in John 215:12 . . .to love one another as He has loved us.

So when as a faithful christian I die, and also fulfill all of these commandments above (bear in mind that grace not works is the basis of gaining eternity with GOD)  for it is written in hebrews 9:27 that . . .
it is appointed unto men to die once, after this judgement follows.

what do I get as a reward for my faithfulness?
I gain eternity with God. . . .where there is no sorrow, tears, sickness, fear or anything.
Where all that rules and reigns is LOVE.

I believe that this reward is fair and just. Simply because, the requirements of attaining this reward does not involve me doing anything against the dictates of my conscience. The reward in itself also removes all the limitations I have ever faced as a person. . .with a chance to reign for eternity with Christ. . .never to die again.



2. Salvation, Reinstitution, Curiosity.

Considering all the religions that exist, there is bound to be one true one. No religion offers the restitution of my sins (islam says I have to go to hell as a faithful muslim to pay for my own sins), No religion offers me a relationship with the maker (a muslim is merely a messenger/slave) No religion offers restitution for my sins. . .Are the requirements of my religion synonymous to my convictions? (i mean the dictates of my conscience) I am also bound by curiosity to believe that we could not just have bumped into this world, there must have been a beginning somewhere. where was this beginning? who made it? when? is there a way I can reach this person?

I dont want to bore u with the details. Only JESUS offers a restitution for my sins. He already paid the price. I have an established personal relationship with Him that enables me call Him Father. He answers me when I call on Him.

His requirements from me do not in any way contradict the dictates of my conscience. His only requirement to me is to love everyone like He loves me.

No other religion or knowledge has been able to establish the beginning of all things. u might argue contrary for islam but see the FAQ below on: is the bible corrupt?

Believe in Jesus makes me a better person, my actions an attempt to make the world a better place and puts me at peace with myself in this world and the one to come.


3. Women Rights/ Human Rights/Works of The spirit.

I love to protect the defenceless. women, children, poor people, orphans, convicted and condemend or ostracised people, including children, prostitutes, destitutes and refugees. I love to do my little bits to make the world a better place. Does my faith/believe in Jesus prevents me from doing this? NO. . . It actually considers them as good deeds.

I hate the incessant violations of human/women rights especially in islamic and atheist (communist) countries. I want to make the world a better place. The bible discourages me from beating my wife (when I marry one), divorce her by mouth 3 times, arrange temporary marriages et al . . ,  it encourages me to love her. The bible discourages me from condoning any form of evil (highlighted above) It encourages me to live above board. The bible (works of the spirit) conforms with my moral and personal convictions.

why would the bible tell me otherwise?

4. A true Helper.

I am encouraged to ask and receive. I am encouraged to seek for help from HIM at all times. He says He shall neither leave nor forsake me. Has He been true to His word? has He answered whenever I call? Has He been my help at all time? Does He inspire, guide and direct me? Do I get personal and exclusive miracles from Him, which otherwise could not have been resolved by any physical or intelligent means? Do I trust HIM based on the events of yesterday to take care of my future? Has HE been faithful to me?

The answer to all those is a bold YES. christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with the father. A relationship is a two way traffic. If the answer to any of the above questions was No. . . then I certainly wouldnt be a christian. He has been faithful, I have nothing to gain by living in denial. . . .If Jesus has not been faithful to me. . . then I am one of the most stupid persons on the planet to remain a christian.

But if all of the above is true. . . do I have any reason to stop being a christian?. . . would u?

medicine and science are limited in their knowledge to the issues of life. when medical knowledge cannot resolve a disease, Doctor Jesus has been faithfull enough to heal as evidenced in the christian community world wide.

5. The real Me is developed.

I discovered my identity ONLY as a conscious/rational christian. I do not intend to share this details as they are very personal.

He continuosly guides and directs me by giving me promises, assurances and re-assurances all of which are backed with fulfilment. He backs them up with personal revelations, that could not have been gotten elsewhere. I have a detailed peace of mind.

I cannot emphasise on this point, as it is very very personal.

6. The Faith Question.

The every day non-christian (atheist) wonders why I am so stupid to express faith in GOD. He refres to such faith as mental and psycological weakness that requires the need for a GOD. I believe that such a person lacks the basic understanding of what faith entails. Faith literarily involves a belief of a future event that does not correspond to present day reality.

Take for instance, an atheist wallowing in poverty in the slums of ajegunle, believes that one-day he will fly to london to seek greener pastures. There is no basis for his belief, cos he is an orphan with no relative, he is jobless and looking at it from an objective point of view, it is impossible for him to obtain a visa, as he does not have the resources to get one. what would he tell the ECO he wants to come and do in the uk?

But he holds on to his beliefs anyway. . . .that's called faith. Its only a pity that his faith is baseless and does not correspond or link to the all faithfull GOD.

I excercise my faith in the ONE who has been faithful since the very beginning.


7. The God/Jesus question.

No one has been able to scientifically prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to intellectually prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to logically prove convincingly that God does not exist.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not Die for me.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus is not GOD.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not resurrect.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus will not return to rapture the saints.

when they do. . .I will take them seriously and question my christian faith.

8. My Cravings are not disposed.

I want to be wealthy and healthy in life, I want to be successful in my endeavours and chosen field.
I want to excel exceptionally. I want to live a long and fulfilling life. does He oppose all of this things? . . . NO

Seek first the kingdom of GOD and every other thing shall follow. All I have to do is Ask in prayer Mathew 7:7. Not forgetting that He already has a good plan for me . . .Jeremiah 29:11

9. what's there to loose

Lets assume I die as an ATHEIST:

if truly I find out that there is no god. . . .then like every other person i have simply passed away.
if I find out that allah is "GOD". . . . .then I have simply found myself on the wrong side of a bllod-thrsty god. . . I go to hell.
if truly Jesus is GOD . . . .then I am hell bound for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

Atheism is a loose-loose situation.



Lets assume I die as a DEVOUT and FAITHFULL MUSLIM:

If I find out that there is no god .  . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that my allah is god. . . . . . I go to HELL FIRE even as a devout and faithfull muslim (sura 19:71-72)
If I find out that Jesus is GOD . . . . .  I go to hell for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

Islam is a loose-loose situation.


When I die as a FAITHFULL CHRISTIAN who enjoys the GRACE of the father:
if I find out that there is no god. . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that allah is "GOD". . . , I go to hell, but bear in mind that all FAITHFULL and DEVOUT muslims who diligently served allah will also be with me in hell (sura 19:71-72).
If I find out that Jesus is INDEED GOD . . . . .I inherit eternal life and reign with HIM for eternity because I have acknowledged His gift of salvation and I am an heir by grace.

Christianity is a WIN-WIN situation. If the bookmakers where to place odds on these three scenarios, which do u think will be the favourite?

10. Jesus Bridged the gap.

What is the gap? The gap is my craving for answer to certain questions that question my christian faith.
some of the questions are: who is God? who created God? where was God's beginning? How was God made?  whats life like after death? what happens when I die? what if there is no GOD? what id GOD's ontology? et all.

But since I acknowledged the gift of salvation from Jesus, I have received a complete understanding of these questions and subjects which explains my confidence and ability to addressing these issues when ever they are raised on this forum.

I could go on and on, cos I have numerous reasons to be a christian.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS/ FRQUENTLY RAISED TOPICS:

1. Your bible is not definite, it is scientifically porous, evolution has all the answers.

I assume that the basis of saying that the bible is porous is because u assume that evolution has all the answers. To the contrary Evolution has no answer. If and when evolutionists are able to answer the following questions, then they will be taken seriously. The questions are:

the commonest law of biogenesis says life begets life. Biology buttresses this.
Yet evolution claims that the first substance of life were formed from non-living substances reffered to as "spontaneous generation". is this not a contradiction?

Darwin claims that all organisms on earth are descent from a common ancestor or a last universal ancestor.Whats the atheist's explanation for the mitochondria gene exception? what is the identity and nature of the last common universal ancestor?

Evolution traces life to phylogenetic tree that that postulates three domains of life namely bacteria, archea and eucaryota. What is the major consensus or common denominator to whom life can be traced to between these three?

Evolution claims that increasing complex chemical reactions that resulted from simpler chemical reactions are the last traces of life.
what was the singular first chemical reaction that kick started life?
and what were the substances that made up this reaction?
what was the structure of the first living things? what was the catalyst of this first chemical reaction? what were the components of this catalyst?

with regards to the pioneer formation of the RNA? how did it happen? which was the very first? what was its structure?

I have repeatedly established on this forum that changes in the earth from the primordial man till now CANNOT be used to buttress evolution.

2. Have you Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelt and Tasted GOD?

I have seen HIM in my dream. . . .and I consider that enough, at least for me.
I have continuously heard HIM. . . He continues to teach, instruct and inspire me on the eternal truths of day to day life.
I have felt, smelt and touched GOD by holy spirit encounters in the mode of worship.

You cannot scientifically establish that God has not spoken to me, or that I have not seen, heard or felt HIM.

3. Where is your scientific proof to establish the existence of GOD?

The resident atheists are yet to come up with their scientific evidence that establishes the non-existence of GOD. As soon as they come up with their scientific evidence, I will also tender mine.

4. Where is your intellectual evidence that establishes the existence of GOD?

The likes of Daviddylan and Olaadegbu have repeatedly established the intelleectual basis/evidence for the existence of GOD on this forum. I do not intend to repeat what they have said at this time.
But as soon as the resident atheists produce their intellectual evidence/basis for the non-existence of GOD, I will furbish u with mine.

I am simply not producing my intellectual or scientific evidences at this time, cos I dont want to encourage mental laziness on the part of our resident atheists. as soon as they are ready, so am I.

5. Where is your logical proof that establishes the existence of GOD?

The logical evidences that support the existence of GOD abounds all over nairaland as established by daviddylan, olaadegbu and other resident christians. I do not intend to brouch this aspect.

but let me establish the inconsistencies of the atheist's ignorantly driven logic.The atheist says that:

The earth and all that is in it could not have been created by an uncreated, unseen, unexperienced and unprovable GOD,. . . . but could have come into existence by an uncreated, unseen, unexperienced and unprovable "big bang".

If at all there is a GOD, He is a summation of ALL that exist. . . . but God does not exist neither can HE create.

There is no God . . . .but all the evil in todays world can be traced to GOD.

the theist is not serious because he cannot scientifically prove GOD's existence . . . .I (atheist) am intelligent, though I am yet to scientifically prove God does not exist.

The burden of proof is on the theist . . . . why do I(atheist) have to prove anything, I (atheist) am just intellectually bankrupt.

6. Why does ur bible oppose science and medicine.

There is no single scripture that says "christians dont go to hospitals". paul also asked timothy to use medicine for his stomach.

You also cannot separate God from science. Any attempt to do so, is an attempt to create a new religion. science is man's way of seeking answers to every day's questions, it does not negate anything about GOD. At least science has not been able to prove the non-existence of GOD.

christianity does not oppose/negate medcine but it acknowledges the limits of medical knowledge. This acknowledgement is usually followed by divine interventions called miracle.

7. Your bible is false. That we (atheist/evolutionists) dont know now does not mean we would know in the future. Meanwhile errors in ur bible have been established.

You have continued to search and research fallacies to butress evolution for over a hundred years, yet you are still ignorant about the beginning of life. I believe u will never know.

It is pointless on my part to refute ur claim on the faults of the bible. If the bible is false, whats the alternative?

8. I was once like u. . .I was once a christian. . . reading the bible, preaching, defending christianity until I found out the truth. The bible was written by barbaric men,  . there is no GOD.

My dear, u were NEVER a christian. Christianity is not centered around the bible but around JESUS. Thats why christianity is a relationship with HIM. If u had a relationship with HIM, u would never have left ur faith, He would have guided and led u. u were simply a CHURCH GOER, who sought after human acceptance. good luck with ur new found faith.

9. If God is perfect, He would not ask for worship. why is God egoic?

This is an intellectually bankrupt statement/assertion. what does perfection mean? who is GOD?

If u refer to the christian ontological definition of GOD, then God is not subject to human intellectual capacity. He said "your ways are not my ways, neither are ur thoughts mine".

If u consider the literal meaning of perfection, it only fits into the definitive concept of whoever is defining perfection. So if u can define perfection and tell me why GOD should subscribe to ur own definition of perfection, then I will agree that GOD is NOT perfect.

10. God is one-sided. He supported Abel not Cain. He blessed Jacob not Esau. He supported Isaac not Ishmael.

I have repeatedly asked the postulators of this thought to rationally explain it, no one has so far been able to do so. Let me start by saying that I believe that GOD is fair to all, at least untill the earth/world is judged.

Cain offered the worst of his goods as sacrifice, Abel offered the best of his flock. . . why then should cain's sacrifice be acceptable? why then should cain be prefered to Abel?

Jacob and Esau were both blessed in abundance. Infact Esau had far more than Jacob, that explains why jacob bowed to esau seven times (Gen 33:3), his entire household bowed to esau in verse 6 and 7, and Esau refused Jacob's gifts in Gen 33:11-15 . Jacob also called Esau my master thrice. Esau was more blessed. The only difference was that Jacob carried the convenant that established the physical and spiritual israel.

God promised Abraham and Sarah a covenant child. God made NO promise to haggai. Abraham and haggai had ishmeal, thus how/why should ishmael inherit the covenant? Isaac is an offspring of the covenant bearers Abraham and sarah. This is simple common sense.

If u however feel that God is one sided . . . .why are u not on HIS side?

11. How can u explain the many genocides, killings and ethnic cleansing that happened in the OLD TESTAMENT. the GOD of OT is a murderer, killer and a dangerous guy. If God is good, then He is not God, If God is Love then He is not God . . . or whatever.

The OT is a very interesting book. However like any other book, it is up to the reader to deduce ANYTHING he/she wants to from the book. while ur deduction from the OT is God is a bad guy, that is not my deduction.

My deduction from the OT is a GOD, who will keep HIS word, deliver HIS promises and protect HIS own, no matter what it takes. Even if it means the destruction of idolatry nations. The OT is a reflection of God's faithfullness to perfect HIS word, promises and assurances in HIS children's lives.

why are u not on HIS side?


12. Does ur bible ever mention "prophet" mohammed.

The bible NEVER mentioned mohammed by name, but he was one of the FALSE prophets Jesus spoke about in Mathew 24.
It has been repeatedly established on this forum that mohammed is a FALSE prophet.

13. Your bible is corrupt. . .I can show u the contradictions.

I agree that the bible is corrupt. . . the corrupt version is called KORAN.

14. Is mohammed the Holy spirit?

I believe that the koran has the sufficient answer. Here is what it says in 2:87

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

Who was the holy spirit that was sent with Jesus? He (holy spirit) could not have been mohammed, since mohammed was not born until 600 years after Jesus.

15. Allah is Jehovah God.

It has been repeatedly established on this forum that allah is an idol with a wife called allat and together they have three daughters. mohammed's father was called abd-allah, meaning slave of allah. who was the allah he was serving,? since he died before mohammed was born?

The contextual interpretation of GOD in other languages might have used the accronym Allah, but historical accounts have established that the islamic/arabian allah is NOT Jehovah GOD.

allah is definitely NOT Jehovah GOD.


16. Do the calculation for me, when did Jesus die? when did He rise up? whats the evidence of His ressurection?

Jesus died and ressurected on the THIRD DAY. The most potent evidence of this ressurection is the psycological impact of the ressurection of Jesus on the disciples.

Remember that all His disciples absconded when He was on trial. Peter aand his cousins went back to their fishing business. How could such a man (peter) now risk his life days later, to preach about a man (Jesus) if He (Jesus) had not ressurected?

Peter saw a ressurected Jesus. Thats why He could risk His life for Jesus, after all they saw Jesus go through.

17. You must be stupid to believe the creation story of Genesis 1 and 2.

In debates there is something called a superior argument. If point A is wron, u simply produce point B as an alternative. So lets assume the bible account is false,  .where is the alternative? who created the earth and its components? when? where? how?

18. I know thousands of christian scientists who support evolution.

I dont know the type of christianity that supports the evolution LIE. since evolution CANNOT be proven (see FAQ 1 above), it is also impossible to link evolution to the creation account.

christians supporting evolution have no scientific reason to, its all an attempt to be politically correct.

19. I can prove to u from the koran that did Jesus did not die.

All I need from the koran to establish that Jesus died and ressurected is in koran 19:33-34 it records Jesus as saying:
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

I can deduce from that passage that Jesus was born, He died and has resurrected.



20. Why is ur God silent and inert?

You cannot prove God is silent. He talks to me, that's enough proof.

To claim God is inert is to have an explanation to how life began on this planet. If u do, please feel free to share with me.

21. How can u foolishly believe that God's covenant with Noah caused the rainbow. Science has proven otherwise.

Scientific evidences that establish that Noah's flood indeed happened have been tendered on this forum, our resident atheists and geologist COULD NOT refute this evidences.

Where is ur scientific evidence to establish that GOD and Noah did NOT have a convenant?
Since it has been scientifically proven that Noah's flood indeed happened, then I believe that rainbow is/was as a result of GOD's convenant with Noah. Can u scientifically prove that GOD exerted no influence on the first formation of the rainbow?

I am allergic to atheist and mohammedans trying to constitute a nuisance.

Feel free to post ur questions . . . .but please dont repeat the ones I have answered.
If u are a muslim, before u post a question, be bold enough to explicitly tell us why u are a muslim:

If u are an atheist, before u post ur question, endeavour to produce ur scientific and intellectual evidence here: 

I believe u now know why I am a christian.

If u want to join in my Christian Faith to accept the gift of salvation of Christ Jesus:

Say with me: Dear Jesus,
I acknowledge u as my Lord,
I acknowledge u as my GOD,
forgive me of my sins, give me a clean and new beginning.
Come into my life and live in me.
Thank u for ur faithfulness. in Jesus Name


Guess what?  . . . . The angels are rejoicing.

@Noetic2: « on: Today at 10:19:54 PM »

I have already told u why I am not an atheist https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-279631.0.html
I also told u why I am not a muslim https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-280415.0.html
I think it is fair i tell u why I am a christian

let me start by stating that I did not inherit christianity, was not born a christian neither was i a miracle seeker who turned to christianity (I have nothing against this group of people, just feel the need to make the clarification). I am a rational believer of the christian faith, which explains why I can CONFIDENTLY debate and defend my beliefs, quite unlike the atheist who CANNOT produce a scientific or intellectual evidence to support their belief/disbelief in the non-existence of GOD, or the muslims who cannot simply state why exactly they are muslims. . . . . this thread is not about the atheist or muslims. . . . It is simply to educate everyone about why I am a christian.

Babs787, on Nairaland, my mother Victoria Mariam, my wife Zainab, are people who did not inherit Islam. Yet today they are good Muslims. Babs787, is enough as evidence to diminsh if not dismiss your "special discovery; no explanation you have given, except being a 'rational believer, whatever that means'", subtle indication of how special Christianity is. Interestingly, as an african, I will say that I did not inherit Islam, too. Afterall, my mother was a greater influence in my life, while I was a child. In a way am also an example of the goodness of Islam over Christianity's 3 gods in one doctrine.

Others and I have stated in writing that the 3 gods in one is a great endictment against Christianity. The One Single God, Who is identified by proper name, Allah is what we opted for. Reason; He is capable of doing all this. Jesus couldn't do all things. Allah is Knower of all things, while Jesus did not even know the time of the hour. Allah never dies, while you say that Jesus died. Who in his/her sane mind will worship a "god" who hasthe same pitfalls, weaknesses as the worshippers?

So as usual I objectively asked myself, why EXACTLY am I a christian? The following are the intellectually rich reasons I could come up with.

And read how easily I expose the half baked reasons. I wonder what intellectuality means then?

1. The fair reward:

I believe u know what christianity is all about. Its simply about my acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as my Lord and GOD and the acceptance of His Gift of Salvation.
In return Jesus expects me to reflect the works of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23

Is this fair reward? But let me leave that alone for a moment so that I can expose how weak your intellectual statements are.
When you are defending your belief in Jesus, you should have used his statements (Gospels) to try to defend it. Not Galatians from Paul. How can you justify this blunder? This is a worse kind of matriculated presentations.

I had thought though that you, a christian by just simply "believeing in the death" you should be free to do whatever you want. Yet still get to heaven? The muslims, not only that they rely on confirmed Mercy of Allah on just true belief in Oneness and worshipping God. They are giving vivid description of Paradise. It is something that they can hope for. Unlike your heaven where you are at best not in hell, but no food, or nothing human mind can capture as enjoyment or fruit and sign of felicity.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
—Galatians 5:22-23 and also to abide by His new commandment stated in John 215:12 . . .to love one another as He has loved us.

Galatians again? Where is Gospel of Jesus? Haa. John 215;12, finally redefining a new law. I guess the old laws are now irrelevant. Yet Jesus said with his own mouth that he did not come to destroy the laws and the prophets and warned no one should after him. But here is your departure from the very injuction. If love your neighbor as yourself is the only ingredient, then what happened to doing good work? Is there a need? If the law is just love one another, why are you listing self control, etc?

So when as a faithful christian I die, and also fulfill all of these commandments above (bear in mind that grace not works is the basis of gaining eternity with GOD) for it is written in hebrews 9:27 that . . .
it is appointed unto men to die once, after this judgement follows.

Where and when did Jesus preached in the Book of Hebrew? I though his preachings were capture in the Gospels?
If I take your one time death on man and apply it to Jesus, it will prove that Jesus was not more than man. This is the reason that we in Islam say that you are an idolater.

what do I get as a reward for my faithfulness?
I gain eternity with God. . . .where there is no sorrow, tears, sickness, fear or anything.
Where all that rules and reigns is LOVE.
[/quote[

What happened to food, etc? None for you. Just imagine how empty your reward is. Nothing human can relate to in it. No homes, no reuniting families together, if you all enter heaven. No nothing.

I believe that this reward is fair and just. Simply because, the requirements of attaining this reward does not involve me doing anything against the dictates of my conscience. The reward in itself also removes all the limitations I have ever faced as a person. . .with a chance to reign for eternity with Christ. . .never to die again.

Let me ask you, do you naturally have self control, love, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness? As a yoruba man, the expression of Surulere is not acceptable, whreas Olrunshogo is what everyone is look for, completely destroys your statement that patience is second nature with you. I bet if there is no law against any of those things you are claiming that is second nature to you, you would no show any sign that you are kind, (your writings against the Islam and Muslims betrays your inner quality. It is no kindness), etc.

@ olabowale

did u make ANY point?

noetic2:

@ olabowale

did u make ANY point?

I think he did . . . the fact that he had no point in itself was a point.

@Noetic2:

2. Salvation, Reinstitution, Curiosity.

Considering all the religions that exist, there is bound to be one true one. No religion offers the restitution of my sins (islam says I have to go to hell as a faithful muslim to pay for my own sins), No religion offers me a relationship with the maker (a muslim is merely a messenger/slave) No religion offers restitution for my sins. . .Are the requirements of my religion synonymous to my convictions? (i mean the dictates of my conscience) I am also bound by curiosity to believe that we could not just have bumped into this world, there must have been a beginning somewhere. where was this beginning? who made it? when? is there a way I can reach this person?

Actually, if I look at your opinion of the statement of Surah Mariam verse 71, as a yardstck of your honesty, I will deem you a big liar. Your quote of this verse is quite wrong. There is no where that Allah says that Muslims will go to Hell, fisrt or at anytime, except the hypocrites among them. But there are verses that say that Muslims true believers will be mercied and go to Paradise directly. I will simply quote the verse you have been shamelessly misquoting to point out your "evil heart". I guess a man with evl in his heart will never enter paradise.

19:70 Muhsin Khan: Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.
19:71 Muhsin Khan: There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.
This very verse proves that you have lied, once again. When will you speak any truth?

I dont want to bore u with the details. Only JESUS offers a restitution for my sins. He already paid the price. I have an established personal relationship with Him that enables me call Him Father. He answers me when I call on Him.

If Jesus paid a price for your sin, I wonder if any christian will enter the lake of fire? But then the Bible states that Jesus mentioned lake of fire while talking to his listeners. The lake of fire is mentioned relative to those who will claim that they are his followers. I do not want to belabor this issue, except that you will also read it in the Bible that in the day of Judgement, some of his followers will be heading to hell/lake of fire. They will want Jesus to intervein. Hwe will not, even as they say that they that they performed many a miracle in his name. Yet at the end these people will end up right there, in the lake of fire! I guess the payment was a mirage.

His requirements from me do not in any way contradict the dictates of my conscience. His only requirement to me is to love everyone like He loves me.

I wonder if Jesus tolf you to lie so much, as I have indicated above? Sorry, it is the very thing, lie that is in your heart/conscience. How can a blatant liar be a lover of his neighbor?

No other religion or knowledge has been able to establish the beginning of all things. u might argue contrary for islam but see the FAQ below on: is the bible corrupt?

I will wait for the smoking gun that you discovered in Quran. Then I am certain that I will find your lies, again.

Believe in Jesus makes me a better person, my actions an attempt to make the world a better place and puts me at peace with myself in this world and the one to come.

Where does the lie fit in your being a better person? I think you are grand standing. So far you have not said anything truthful about Islam. I aught to know; its the religion that I have practiced consistently for over half a century. And I read Quran, daily. At least in the past 10 years.

3. Women Rights/ Human Rights/Works of The spirit.

I love to protect the defenceless. women, children, poor people, orphans, convicted and condemend or ostracised people, including children, prostitutes, destitutes and refugees. I love to do my little bits to make the world a better place. Does my faith/believe in Jesus prevents me from doing this? NO. . . It actually considers them as good deeds.

I hate the incessant violations of human/women rights especially in islamic and atheist (communist) countries. I want to make the world a better place. The bible discourages me from beating my wife (when I marry one), divorce her by mouth 3 times, arrange temporary marriages et al . . ,  it encourages me to love her. The bible discourages me from condoning any form of evil (highlighted above) It encourages me to live above board. The bible (works of the spirit) conforms with my moral and personal convictions.

why would the bible tell me otherwise?

This guy is so pathetic. Your Bible is full of demeaning opinions about women. First the Bible blamed Eve for eating the forbidden fruit, which is a result for being kicked out of the garden of Eden! If I stop here and say no more, your Bible has proven you wrong. But let me say that your Bible cursed women to suffer as a result of this, during the childbearing, in form of labor pain. Adam was shielded from taking any responsibility. It is the woman to be blamed. The Bible also spoke about women becoming "property" of man in marriage. When either are married, there is no permission for divorce, regardless of what the condition that is prevailing in such a relationship. And no remarrying permissable, either.

From Quran, and I want you to do the research for yourself and try to disprove me: Adam and Eve bore the responsibility of going near the tree, equally. Allah also inspired them to seek forgiveness, and they were forgiven, without any residual sin, and there is no original sin to be transferred to teir progenies; man and woman.  No punishment of disobedience by making her experiencing any pain during childbirth. Since are forgiven and the slate is wipe clean of them. Quran gives responsibilities to man and woman equally; in worship and woman is honored to the point that man is warned not to sever the ties with the womb. Read surah Nisaa; Woman. Also, when Muhammad (AS) was asked about who to give and what amount, mother was first, and her share is 3 times that of the father, who gets his single share as the fourth portion.  Women are to keep their family name, even after marriage. And if in case of divorce, which is a natural thing among mankind, man is cautioned not to ask any portion of the dowry back. Islam does not impose inhumane and unattainable conditions in marriage. A wife is not obligated to prepare her husband's meals. I guess I find you lying , again.

But wait, Islam is the first to give equality to women, by allowing them to own properties and forbids the preislamic notion that women are not desireable as a man's offspring. Islam forced the Arabs to never kill their daughters.

4. A true Helper.

I am encouraged to ask and receive. I am encouraged to seek for help from HIM at all times. He says He shall neither leave nor forsake me. Has He been true to His word? has He answered whenever I call? Has He been my help at all time? Does He inspire, guide and direct me? Do I get personal and exclusive miracles from Him, which otherwise could not have been resolved by any physical or intelligent means? Do I trust HIM based on the events of yesterday to take care of my future? Has HE been faithful to me?

The answer to all those is a bold YES. christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with the father. A relationship is a two way traffic. If the answer to any of the above questions was No. . . then I certainly wouldnt be a christian. He has been faithful, I have nothing to gain by living in denial. . . .If Jesus has not been faithful to me. . . then I am one of the most stupid persons on the planet to remain a christian.

A casual read of your piece, exposes your saying that Jesus is your father. Please read the part where you said that Jesus paid the restitution for your sin. Now, if you look above, where you are establishing your relationship with "father", it is important to note that if Jesus is still your father, then you must be the grandchild to the father of Jesus. The reason am deducing this point, is that if the father, is Jesus, by your statement here, you or the bible is lying. We already know that Jesus is different from "father" in the Bible. If they are the same, then they all died, when you said Jesus died. I wonder if a god that dies, and not beyond and above experiencing death is worthy of any worship? Definitely not mine. No wonder the Jews did not believe your Jesus not even as a prophet.

By the way, what happened to those Christians who are dirt poor? They never asked?

But if all of the above is true. . . do I have any reason to stop being a christian?. . . would u?

Except that none of them is true. I guess you if a single Christian who reads the Bible as must as you do, with the same level of belief as you and even do all those things that you accrued to your reason for emaining a Christian, is a destitute, or experiences less success than you, your proposition of your god and religion is a sham. But there is a load of them all over the world. Take a look at the poverty in the Christian community in Nigeria or any place of your chice. I see a bunch of them in America. God help us, if we beleive in a god that dies, unable to know all things.

medicine and science are limited in their knowledge to the issues of life. when medical knowledge cannot resolve a disease, Doctor Jesus has been faithfull enough to heal as evidenced in the christian community world wide.

You are kidding me. Jesus who could not prevent his own death, according to your Bible, is now a Doctor? Osisi, this dude, Noetic is cheapening your profession. Noetic, I have news for you. A whole bunch of Christians are sick and much have died from their sicknesses. Even in a mundane sick as simple as "Swine Flu!" What kind of a doctor is this?

5. The real Me is developed.

I discovered my identity ONLY as a conscious/rational christian. I do not intend to share this details as they are very personal.

He continuosly guides and directs me by giving me promises, assurances and re-assurances all of which are backed with fulfilment. He backs them up with personal revelations, that could not have been gotten elsewhere. I have a detailed peace of mind.

I cannot emphasise on this point, as it is very very personal.

Easy way to copout; its personal. Brother!

6. The Faith Question.

The every day non-christian (atheist) wonders why I am so stupid to express faith in GOD. He refres to such faith as mental and psycological weakness that requires the need for a GOD. I believe that such a person lacks the basic understanding of what faith entails. Faith literarily involves a belief of a future event that does not correspond to present day reality.

Take for instance, an atheist wallowing in poverty in the slums of ajegunle, believes that one-day he will fly to london to seek greener pastures. There is no basis for his belief, cos he is an orphan with no relative, he is jobless and looking at it from an objective point of view, it is impossible for him to obtain a visa, as he does not have the resources to get one. what would he tell the ECO he wants to come and do in the uk?

But he holds on to his beliefs anyway. . . .that's called faith. Its only a pity that his faith is baseless and does not correspond or link to the all faithfull GOD.

I excercise my faith in the ONE who has been faithful since the very beginning.

I will not make any response concerning your talk withatheist from Ajegunle, except that he his determined to achieve his objective of travelling to England. Allah the Almighty covers everyone, Whom He created. He gives to all. His Mercy in this world, where everyone is provided for, and allowed to change his way from misguidance to proper guidance is available, through freewill.

@Noetic2

7. The God/Jesus question.

No one has been able to scientifically prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to intellectually prove that God does not exist.
No one has been able to logically prove convincingly that God does not exist.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not Die for me.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus is not GOD.
No one has been able to scientifically or historically establish that Jesus did not resurrect.
No one has been able to scientifically establish that Jesus will not return to rapture the saints.

when they do. . .I will take them seriously and question my christian faith.

David, am sure your blindness will not let you see my point. Exactly the same reason Noetic have not even have the decency to quote Mariam verse 71, as it is stated in Quran. I see Atlantic ocean from my window. And each time that amabout to make magrib prayer, I look at the setting of the sun effect on the water. It is always murky. Murky means unclear, dark. And I have asked you to help your conscience and simply perform an experiment to disproof the Quran. You have not done so. And with this, should your words have so much weight as a mstard seed? I think not.

Now, Noetic. If Jesus died at all, which did not happen, he definitely did not die for you. Proof is that you are not from the children of Israel the people he was sent to shepard. Read your Bible again. Now significally, we have seen people who were presumed death and later, came back life. They normally call this penomenon "near death experience." Some people remain in coma for long time and they come out from it. I do not want to beat your dead horse too much.

If Jesus is God, who was this God praying to? His disciples heard him cried, wept, etc to a Greater power the Real God that he petitioned. I am sure you know he prayed many times to a God in the prayers that he made in the Garden of geshemane?maybe you don't know and there lies your reason for assuming that Jesus is God. But wait; who is the Eloi that jesus was complaining to that he forsook him? A god that is compalining that another God forsake him, could not be a real god. Or in your own mind, can he and how many gods are there, then? Can a god be begging himself, praying to himself and finally complained that he forsook himself? What a bunch of moronic statement, if that is a god!

Ressurection will mean a person already died and then got back up. But if a person did not die, say deep in his sleep that no sign of life exist just by looking. Could such a person be considered a ressurected being as he suddenly became conscious after such a deep slumber? Such is the case of Jesus, since he did not have any rigormortis and it is unusual and not Jewish custom that people keep their dead overnight and also rob oil on the wounds of dead people as if to hope that the sores/wounds heal up.

Rapture will happen when Jerry Fahwel wakes up! Haa, unfortunately he died waiting for rapture. Wait my man. You will get old and die off, while you are stil waiting. Your intention to cheat death, will be wasted. Have you ever seen a saint who did not die? Is there a disciple of Jesus still on earth? Could you be more important to Jesus that any of them? By the way, Jesus promised to return before they died off. I guess he had not returned and they are all dead, close to 2000 years now. Another Biblical prophesy that was unfulfilled! A god who can not fulfill promise is no God!

8. My Cravings are not disposed.

I want to be wealthy and healthy in life, I want to be successful in my endeavours and chosen field.
I want to excel exceptionally. I want to live a long and fulfilling life. does He oppose all of this things? . . . NO

The tallest building are in the lands of the arabs. If material success is the yardstick for proof of God in your mind, can anyone blame the hindus, or the japanese in the gods that they worship?

Seek first the kingdom of GOD and every other thing shall follow. All I have to do is Ask in prayer Mathew 7:7. Not forgetting that He already has a good plan for me . . .Jeremiah 29:11

Jeremiah. Is that from the Gospel of Jesus? LOL. This dude lives in fantasy.

9. what's there to loose

Lets assume I die as an ATHEIST:

if truly I find out that there is no god. . . .then like every other person i have simply passed away.
if I find out that allah is "GOD". . . . .then I have simply found myself on the wrong side of a bllod-thrsty god. . . I go to hell.
if truly Jesus is GOD . . . .then I am hell bound for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

I all of my reading the Quran, and in the few years that I read the Bible in High School, the Bible showed more blood letting than what I will find in the Quran. The Old Testament in the time of Moses perished a great civilation known as Egypt. Then the next 40 years in the "desert" was used to ethnically cleansed people and groups all the way to the "promised land." And all through the period of their settling in the promised land to just before Jesus came with his mission, there were wars and more wars. Under David and beyond. Unfortunately, Noetic, you did not mention the fact that if judaism is the right religion, you will be doomed, yet again! In three conditions you are doomed.

And as for me, Jesus is the holder of the key to paradise, since muslims believe that he is a prophet, and he has a God who sent him, we will enter paradise with him. If its Moses, the same condition applies. If its Muhammad, we the Muslims have the same specific chance. You at best have a single chance, except that you blow it, by saying that jesus is god, when clearly he has a Lord (Eloi) whom he cried out to!

Atheism is a loose-loose situation.



Lets assume I die as a DEVOUT and FAITHFULL MUSLIM:

If I find out that there is no god . . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that my allah is god. . . . . . I go to HELL FIRE even as a devout and faithfull muslim (sura 19:71-72)
If I find out that Jesus is GOD . . . . . I go to hell for failing to acknowledge His gift of salvation.

Islam is a loose-loose situation.

You are piece of work by your lies. Here is Mariam and the verse that you misquoted, (71)

19:69 Muhsin Khan: Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allah).
19:70 Muhsin Khan: Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.
19:71 Muhsin Khan: There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.
19:72 Muhsin Khan: Then We shall save those who use to fear Allah and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell).
19:73 Muhsin Khan: And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad SAW who have a hard life): "Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation)."

A person who understands english (I hope you do since you live in England) will be able to tell that the you in verse 71 did not point exclusively to Muslims alone. It is inclusive of all, including the muslims. But yet it did not say inside the Hellfire. It specifically says pass over it (hell). When a person passes over a river, he does so through a means, a permanently fixed structure, a bridge. Passing through a bridge does not mean that you will ford through the water. It does not even mean that you will see the water below. It does not mean that you have to be splashed by the water.

Verse 72 expalin the condition of the believers; as that, even though you are to pass over it, you will be saved from falling or going into it. However, the condition of the disbelievers (christians are among them) is explained that they will have to be in it, as they will fall into it and be left in therein as their home/abode.

When I die as a FAITHFULL CHRISTIAN who enjoys the GRACE of the father:
if I find out that there is no god. . . . .like every one else, I simply pass away.
If I find out that allah is "GOD". . . , I go to hell, but bear in mind that all FAITHFULL and DEVOUT muslims who diligently served allah will also be with me in hell (sura 19:71-72).
If I find out that Jesus is INDEED GOD . . . . .I inherit eternal life and reign with HIM for eternity because I have acknowledged His gift of salvation and I am an heir by grace.

Christianity is a WIN-WIN situation. If the bookmakers where to place odds on these three scenarios, which do u think will be the favourite?

There is no winning in Christianity. It is a lose lose all the way for you. Reason is that you have three gods, man. And which one of them is real and independent of the other two? Think hard before you answer. Jesus is reported in the Bible to reject at least some of you Christians who are therefore condemned to the lake of fire. Incidentally, these people among you are predicted to telljesus that they performed major miracles in his name. I guess these are major believers. Yet they end up in Fire lake. have you performed enough major mracles as in the same level as these people rejected by Jesus? If you havent, you will definitely end up in hell. If you did, you will still end up in hell based on your Bible saying so.

Please give me a single verse of the Quran that says Muslims will be in hell, except the Hypocrites who say he is but truly not! Am waiting, Noetic. This is nonsensical and chaotic! lol.

10. Jesus Bridged the gap.

What is the gap? The gap is my craving for answer to certain questions that question my christian faith.
some of the questions are: who is God? who created God? where was God's beginning? How was God made? whats life like after death? what happens when I die? what if there is no GOD? what id GOD's ontology? et all.

But since I acknowledged the gift of salvation from Jesus, I have received a complete understanding of these questions and subjects which explains my confidence and ability to addressing these issues when ever they are raised on this forum.

I could go on and on, cos I have numerous reasons to be a christian.

Unfortunately for you, the gap that Jesus is trying to bridgefor you does not exist in Islam. Read Surah Fatihah.

Isn't it quite funny yaour first and by implication your most important reason is ''fair reward''. I didn't see anywhere you wrote 'i'm a christian coz i love the lord'' -its quite evident you worship to be rewarded and he doesn't oppose your millionaire dreams. So god is now like the mafia who you keep happy to gain protection and wealth. Well done! (even i would fight the way you do for anything that'll make me rich)
You mentioned the OT is an interesting book and people can deduce what they like yet you claim to love humanity,wome and children rights. CONGRATULATIONS!!! you're now a bonafide christian where HYPOCRISY is trademark.
Only a hypocrite would see the clear genocide,looting stealing and infanticide in your bible and deduce otherwise. . .
''why are you not on his side''- did your god reveal himself to those tribes and they rejected before moses and co. Started their ethnic cleansing?
BTW if you've got no evidence to support your god theory come out plain and say it.no one is gonna crucify you-instead of waiting around for atheists to come prove your god whom they've neva seen.

@Noetic

12. Does ur bible ever mention "prophet" mohammed.

The bible NEVER mentioned mohammed by name, but he was one of the FALSE prophets Jesus spoke about in Mathew 24.
It has been repeatedly established on this forum that mohammed is a FALSE prophet.

The Old testament of of the Jews, whom Jesus came specifically for does not mention Jesus name. I see that the Jews do not accept him. These are the inferences of your piece about Muhammad. I think the Jews willfeel the exact same way about Jesus when they are asked. I have a whole lot of them as business associates. I am sure that if you are correct about Muhammad (AS), the Jews will be correct about Jesus (AS)!

Will it not be ironic that if Muhammad is a false prophet, that his religion holds n for 1400 years and gaining on Christianity after it has long surpassed the Jewish faith! I guess a supposed false prophet ways that is gaining on the supposed truth, after it has already surpassed another truth, is not false afterall. As we observed, from the Quran and the ahadith, we can not see anything that Muhammad is associated with that have been found to be false. Is there any?

But Christian god, Jesus and Prophet Moses of the Jews, none of thesem knew the time of the hour, nor the nature of the soul. I guess neither Moses nor jesus is therefore more knowledgeable than Muhammad.

13. Your bible is corrupt. . .I can show u the contradictions.

I agree that the bible is corrupt. . . the corrupt version is called KORAN.

The Quran (not koran, if you are truly educated) is not been referred to as a version of the Bible. Not by Muslims and when ignorant people refer to it, since the are not Muslims as the Bible, we quickly correct them. I guess you are wrong once again. But wait, tey are talking about corruptions and contradictions in the pages of the Bible.

For example, you claim that the Bible is the immutable word of God. But we find words of Paul in the Corinthians and Galathianss; Count it with me please: 1 Cor 7:25, Paul used the phrase: My opinion. There is no way God is talking here! Next verse; "I think", then Verse 40: Acording to my opinion, and in galathians 5: 2, he said: See, I Paul am telling you, ! If this is your God talking, ten paul is also your god, you big time idol worshipper!

14. Is mohammed the Holy spirit?

No muslim has ever said Muhammad is the holy spirit. Quran did not say it, and the Ahadith did not say it! The Holy spirit is Malaika Jibril. I will give you many names for Malaika Jibril sometimes in the future, if yo can handle it. By the way who is the holy spirit in the bible? Whats his name? You have to give proper name since you hae been bold enough to say that Father is yahweh/jehovah, even though Jesus himself said God is Eloi. I wonder which one of you is lying? Liar.

I believe that the koran has the sufficient answer. Here is what it says in 2:87

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

Who was the holy spirit that was sent with Jesus? He (holy spirit) could not have been mohammed, since mohammed was not born until 600 years after Jesus.

And it is very clear that Angel Gabreil is the holy spirit. As angel (spirit) in human form, he came to tell mary about the impending creation of God to come to arth, as a prophet through her womb, without the aid of a human father. Before the creation of Jesus, Allah has created many beings in many different ways that he chose. I have no idea where you conclude that the Muslims said that the holyspirit who supported Jesus was Muhammad.

But wait, Jesus himself used spirit to describe prophet. The Muslims say that Muhammad was the another comforter. For there must be a previous comforter before there is another comforter. Do you know who was the previous comforter before the another comforter, will actually make sense? I need proper name, please. Can you tell me what Ahamad means? That another name of Muhammad. There are still other names that he has.

Your knowledge is poor, man.

15. Allah is Jehovah God.

Allah is Eoloi.Where you get your Jehovah beats me.

It has been repeatedly established on this forum that allah is an idol with a wife called allat and together they have three daughters. mohammed's father was called abd-allah, meaning slave of allah. who was the allah he was serving,? since he died before mohammed was born?

And we see that all idols were eradicated out of Masjid Haram, the place where Kaaba is. Does an idol (man made) eradicates itself? Tis this not a lie, again, my your unpure heart? Below is the verses of Surah Najm where the pagan arab idols are mentioned. They were not mentioned in any relevance to the Muslims, but in rebuking the pagans! You Noetic2, and your kind are pagans of a different sort; you have been given book before.

Please have the human decency to read the hilighted of Surah Najm:


53:1 Muhsin Khan: By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).
53:2 Muhsin Khan: Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
53:3 Muhsin Khan: Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
53:4 Muhsin Khan: It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.
53:5 Muhsin Khan: He has been taught (this Quran) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].
53:6 Muhsin Khan: Dhu Mirrah (free from any defect in body and mind), Fastawa [then he (Jibrael - Gabriel) rose and became stable]. [Tafsir At-Tabari].
53:7 Muhsin Khan: While he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] was in the highest part of the horizon,
53:8 Muhsin Khan: Then he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] approached and came closer,
53:9 Muhsin Khan: And was at a distance of two bows' length or (even) nearer,
53:10 Muhsin Khan: So did (Allah) convey the Inspiration to His slave [Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel) ].
53:11 Muhsin Khan: The (Prophet's) heart lied not (in seeing) what he (Muhammad SAW) saw.
53:12 Muhsin Khan: Will you then dispute with him (Muhammad SAW) about what he saw [during the Mi'raj: (Ascent of the Prophet SAW over the seven heavens)].
53:13 Muhsin Khan: And indeed he (Muhammad SAW) saw him [Jibrael (Gabriel)] at a second descent (i.e. another time).
53:14 Muhsin Khan: Near Sidrat-ul-Muntaha [lote-tree of the utmost boundary (beyond which none can pass)],
53:15 Muhsin Khan: Near it is the Paradise of Abode.
53:16 Muhsin Khan: When that covered the lote-tree which did cover it!
53:17 Muhsin Khan: The sight (of Prophet Muhammad SAW) turned not aside (right or left), nor it transgressed beyond (the) limit (ordained for it).
53:18 Muhsin Khan: Indeed he (Muhammad SAW) did see, of the Greatest Signs, of his Lord (Allah).
53:19 Muhsin Khan: Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs).
53:20 Muhsin Khan: And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
53:21 Muhsin Khan: Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
53:22 Muhsin Khan: That indeed is a division most unfair!
53:23 Muhsin Khan: They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord! Noetic2 o; where is it that the Quran states that any of these idols is Allahs's daughter? Or is the wife of Allah in this verse? Have you have no shame?

53:24 Muhsin Khan: Or shall man have what he wishes?
53:25 Muhsin Khan: But to Allah belongs the last (Hereafter) and the first (the world).
53:26 Muhsin Khan: And there are many angels in the heavens, whose intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He wills and pleases.
53:27 Muhsin Khan: Verily, those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
53:28 Muhsin Khan: While they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and verily, guess is no substitute for the truth.
53:29 Muhsin Khan: Therefore withdraw (O Muhammad SAW) from him who turns away from Our Reminder (this Quran) and desires nothing but the life of this world.
53:30 Muhsin Khan: That is what they could reach of knowledge. Verily, your Lord it is He Who knows best him who goes astray from His Path, and He knows best him who receives guidance.
53:31 Muhsin Khan: And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise).

Here clearly Allah talks about evildoers, disbelievers going to hell. And bellievers going to Paradise. The greatest sign of doing good is true belief in islamic monotheism.

53:32 Muhsin Khan: Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152,153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2)].

David you need to read this, so that you can for ever keep quite. Sins are listed as in Surah An Am verses 153 and 3. Illegal sexual intercourse is a sin, too. And you see that the small or minor sins He Almighty says he will overlook them. What a comfort. Do you have anything like that, except the "stale blood?" Should that not be dried up since over 2000 years now? Funny, man. Funny iea you have there.


53:33 Muhsin Khan: Did you (O Muhammad SAW) observe him who turned away (from Islam).
53:34 Muhsin Khan: And gave a little, then stopped (giving)?
53:35 Muhsin Khan: Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees?
53:36 Muhsin Khan: Or is he not informed with what is in the Pages (Scripture) of Musa (Moses),
53:37 Muhsin Khan: And of Ibrahim (Abraham) who fulfilled (or conveyed) all that (what Allah ordered him to do or convey),
53:38 Muhsin Khan: That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another.
53:39 Muhsin Khan: And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).
53:40 Muhsin Khan: And that his deeds will be seen,
53:41 Muhsin Khan: Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense.
53:42 Muhsin Khan: And that to your Lord (Allah) is the End (Return of everything).
53:43 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who makes (whom He wills) laugh, and makes (whom He wills) weep;
53:44 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who causes death and gives life;
53:45 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female,
53:46 Muhsin Khan: From Nutfah (drops of semen male and female discharges) when it is emitted;
53:47 Muhsin Khan: And that upon Him (Allah) is another bringing forth (Resurrection);
53:48 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who gives much or a little (or gives wealth and contentment),
53:49 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) is the Lord of Sirius (the star which the pagan Arabs used to worship);
53:50 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who destroyed the former 'Ad (people),
53:51 Muhsin Khan: And Thamud (people). He spared none of them.
53:52 Muhsin Khan: And the people of Nuh (Noah) aforetime, verily, they were more unjust and more rebellious and transgressing [in disobeying Allah and His Messenger Nuh (Noah) ].
53:53 Muhsin Khan: And He destroyed the overthrown cities [of Sodom to which Prophet Lout (Lot) was sent].
53:54 Muhsin Khan: So there covered them that which did cover (i.e. torment with stones).
53:55 Muhsin Khan: Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt.
53:56 Muhsin Khan: This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old.

How is it that Muhammad (AS) is then a false prophet, when he went to heavens and back, in a part of a single night? Even Obama accepted that fact.


53:57 Muhsin Khan: The Day of Resurrection draws near,
53:58 Muhsin Khan: None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it).
53:59 Muhsin Khan: Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)?
53:60 Muhsin Khan: And you laugh at it and weep not,
53:61 Muhsin Khan: Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.).
53:62 Muhsin Khan: So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone).

If the above is true, and I see no reason it should not be, then the idolators are those who worship anything other than Allah.

The contextual interpretation of GOD in other languages might have used the accronym Allah, but historical accounts have established that the islamic/arabian allah is NOT Jehovah GOD.

Ignorance is a mother! The one who knows the meaning of a word, best is the person whose mother tongue is word is spoken. Is there a possibility for a non Arab to know the meaning of a word, more than an arab? Is there a possibility for a non Yoruba to knowthe meaning of yoruba word more than a yoruba person? Can a person who has no igbo bloodline be better in igbo idiomatic expression than a person whose family is deeply rooted in igboland, and he/she grows up in that tribe.
This is your case and the cases of those Muta Mushrikun, who think they know more of arabic word root than Arabs!

Sometime, earlier this year, I was having a dialogue with a christian pastor who said something about Allah being an idol. When I pressed him hard, he had to admit that it is the only Deity that the Arabs did not have a stature to represent it. They knew, even then, just like my people the yoruba know that Allah is Eledumare. Yet neither of the two people in their paganic mindset had a symbol to say this is Allah or Eledumare. The arabs had all their idols being represented. But not Allah. The yorubas have their idols in their physical representations, too. But not Eledumare.

allah is definitely NOT Jehovah GOD.

Absolutely. While Allah does not have His name starting with lower case "A", we know that when your human god, Jesus cried out, he did not say Jehovah or yahweh. He said Eloi, which is very close to Allah. And the differences, is in their semitic pronounciations.

I got to amuse myself: Where is Jehovah or Yahweh in Allehluyah, or however you people write it? Considering that language is a pronounciation/verbal medium, is it impossible that we see that Eloi is Allah, and Allehluyah is equal to Yaa Allah, except that the yaa is at the end in Alehluyaa?

Mr Olabowale sir. You still dey. E don reach 3 days. Plus one day.

How have you been?

Tùdor:

Isn't it quite funny yaour first and by implication your most important reason is ''fair reward''. I didn't see anywhere you wrote 'i'm a christian coz i love the lord'' -its quite evident you worship to be rewarded and he doesn't oppose your millionaire dreams.  So god is now like the mafia who you keep happy to gain protection and wealth. Well done! (even i would fight the way you do for anything that'll make me rich)

Tudor, what would ur reaction have been if u had seen love there? I do love the Lord because He loves me first. But considering that my audience are atheists and mohammedans, it is imperative that it is not the basic point of my reasons.

what difference does that make to u?

Do u know what the fruits of the spirit are? One of them is called Love. . . .that was my first point.

You mentioned the OT is an interesting book and people can deduce what they like yet you claim to love humanity,wome and children rights. CONGRATULATIONS!!! you're now a bonafide christian where HYPOCRISY is trademark.
Only a hypocrite would see the clear genocide,looting stealing and infanticide in your bible and deduce otherwise. . .
''why are you not on his side''- did your god reveal himself to those tribes and they rejected before moses and co. Started their ethnic cleansing?
BTW if you've got no evidence to support your god theory come out plain and say it.no one is gonna crucify you-instead of waiting around for atheists to come prove your god whom they've neva seen.

you are fast becoming very less objective.

did I deny the "events" of the OT? I simply told u my deduction from those events.

olabowale:

@Noetic
The Old testament of of the Jews, whom Jesus came specifically for does not mention Jesus name. I see that the Jews do not accept him. These are the inferences of your piece about Muhammad. I think the Jews willfeel the exact same way about Jesus when they are asked. I have a whole lot of them as business associates. I am sure that if you are correct about Muhammad (AS), the Jews will be correct about Jesus (AS)!

Will it not be ironic that if Muhammad is a false prophet, that his religion holds n for 1400 years and gaining on Christianity after it has long surpassed the Jewish faith! I guess a supposed false prophet ways that is gaining on the supposed truth, after it has already surpassed another truth, is not false afterall. As we observed, from the Quran and the ahadith, we can not see anything that Muhammad is associated with that have been found to be false. Is there any?

But Christian god, Jesus and Prophet Moses of the Jews, none of thesem knew the time of the hour, nor the nature of the soul. I guess neither Moses nor jesus is therefore more knowledgeable than Muhammad.


The Quran (not koran, if you are truly educated) is not been referred to as a version of the Bible. Not by Muslims and when ignorant people refer to it, since the are not Muslims as the Bible, we quickly correct them. I guess you are wrong once again. But wait, tey are talking about corruptions and contradictions in the pages of the Bible.

For example, you claim that the Bible is the immutable word of God. But we find words of Paul in the Corinthians and Galathianss; Count it with me please: 1 Cor 7:25, Paul used the phrase: My opinion. There is no way God is talking here! Next verse; "I think", then Verse 40: Acording to my opinion, and in galathians 5: 2, he said: See, I Paul am telling you, ! If this is your God talking, ten paul is also your god, you big time idol worshipper!


No muslim has ever said Muhammad is the holy spirit. Quran did not say it, and the Ahadith did not say it! The Holy spirit is Malaika Jibril. I will give you many names for Malaika Jibril sometimes in the future, if yo can handle it. By the way who is the holy spirit in the bible? Whats his name? You have to give proper name since you hae been bold enough to say that Father is yahweh/jehovah, even though Jesus himself said God is Eloi. I wonder which one of you is lying? Liar.


And it is very clear that Angel Gabreil is the holy spirit. As angel (spirit) in human form, he came to tell mary about the impending creation of God to come to arth, as a prophet through her womb, without the aid of a human father. Before the creation of Jesus, Allah has created many beings in many different ways that he chose. I have no idea where you conclude that the Muslims said that the holyspirit who supported Jesus was Muhammad.

But wait, Jesus himself used spirit to describe prophet. The Muslims say that Muhammad was the another comforter. For there must be a previous comforter before there is another comforter. Do you know who was the previous comforter before the another comforter, will actually make sense? I need proper name, please. Can you tell me what Ahamad means? That another name of Muhammad. There are still other names that he has.

Your knowledge is poor, man.


Allah is Eoloi.Where you get your Jehovah beats me.


And we see that all idols were eradicated out of Masjid Haram, the place where Kaaba is. Does an idol (man made) eradicates itself? Tis this not a lie, again, my your unpure heart? Below is the verses of Surah Najm where the pagan arab idols are mentioned. They were not mentioned in any relevance to the Muslims, but in rebuking the pagans! You Noetic2, and your kind are pagans of a different sort; you have been given book before.

Please have the human decency to read the hilighted of Surah Najm:


53:1 Muhsin Khan: By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).
53:2 Muhsin Khan: Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
53:3 Muhsin Khan: Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
53:4 Muhsin Khan: It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.
53:5 Muhsin Khan: He has been taught (this Quran) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].
53:6 Muhsin Khan: Dhu Mirrah (free from any defect in body and mind), Fastawa [then he (Jibrael - Gabriel) rose and became stable]. [Tafsir At-Tabari].
53:7 Muhsin Khan: While he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] was in the highest part of the horizon,
53:8 Muhsin Khan: Then he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] approached and came closer,
53:9 Muhsin Khan: And was at a distance of two bows' length or (even) nearer,
53:10 Muhsin Khan: So did (Allah) convey the Inspiration to His slave [Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel) ].
53:11 Muhsin Khan: The (Prophet's) heart lied not (in seeing) what he (Muhammad SAW) saw.
53:12 Muhsin Khan: Will you then dispute with him (Muhammad SAW) about what he saw [during the Mi'raj: (Ascent of the Prophet SAW over the seven heavens)].
53:13 Muhsin Khan: And indeed he (Muhammad SAW) saw him [Jibrael (Gabriel)] at a second descent (i.e. another time).
53:14 Muhsin Khan: Near Sidrat-ul-Muntaha [lote-tree of the utmost boundary (beyond which none can pass)],
53:15 Muhsin Khan: Near it is the Paradise of Abode.
53:16 Muhsin Khan: When that covered the lote-tree which did cover it!
53:17 Muhsin Khan: The sight (of Prophet Muhammad SAW) turned not aside (right or left), nor it transgressed beyond (the) limit (ordained for it).
53:18 Muhsin Khan: Indeed he (Muhammad SAW) did see, of the Greatest Signs, of his Lord (Allah).
53:19 Muhsin Khan: Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs).
53:20 Muhsin Khan: And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
53:21 Muhsin Khan: Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
53:22 Muhsin Khan: That indeed is a division most unfair!
53:23 Muhsin Khan: They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord! Noetic2 o; where is it that the Quran states that any of these idols is Allahs's daughter? Or is the wife of Allah in this verse? Have you have no shame?

53:24 Muhsin Khan: Or shall man have what he wishes?
53:25 Muhsin Khan: But to Allah belongs the last (Hereafter) and the first (the world).
53:26 Muhsin Khan: And there are many angels in the heavens, whose intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He wills and pleases.
53:27 Muhsin Khan: Verily, those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
53:28 Muhsin Khan: While they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and verily, guess is no substitute for the truth.
53:29 Muhsin Khan: Therefore withdraw (O Muhammad SAW) from him who turns away from Our Reminder (this Quran) and desires nothing but the life of this world.
53:30 Muhsin Khan: That is what they could reach of knowledge. Verily, your Lord it is He Who knows best him who goes astray from His Path, and He knows best him who receives guidance.
53:31 Muhsin Khan: And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise).

Here clearly Allah talks about evildoers, disbelievers going to hell. And bellievers going to Paradise. The greatest sign of doing good is true belief in islamic monotheism.

53:32 Muhsin Khan: Those who avoid great sins (see the Quran, Verses: 6:152,153) and Al-Fawahish (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) except the small faults, verily, your Lord is of vast forgiveness. He knows you well when He created you from the earth (Adam), and when you were fetuses in your mothers' wombs. So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allah and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2)].

David you need to read this, so that you can for ever keep quite. Sins are listed as in Surah An Am verses 153 and 3. Illegal sexual intercourse is a sin, too. And you see that the small or minor sins He Almighty says he will overlook them. What a comfort. Do you have anything like that, except the "stale blood?" Should that not be dried up since over 2000 years now? Funny, man. Funny iea you have there.


53:33 Muhsin Khan: Did you (O Muhammad SAW) observe him who turned away (from Islam).
53:34 Muhsin Khan: And gave a little, then stopped (giving)?
53:35 Muhsin Khan: Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees?
53:36 Muhsin Khan: Or is he not informed with what is in the Pages (Scripture) of Musa (Moses),
53:37 Muhsin Khan: And of Ibrahim (Abraham) who fulfilled (or conveyed) all that (what Allah ordered him to do or convey),
53:38 Muhsin Khan: That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another.
53:39 Muhsin Khan: And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).
53:40 Muhsin Khan: And that his deeds will be seen,
53:41 Muhsin Khan: Then he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense.
53:42 Muhsin Khan: And that to your Lord (Allah) is the End (Return of everything).
53:43 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who makes (whom He wills) laugh, and makes (whom He wills) weep;
53:44 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who causes death and gives life;
53:45 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female,
53:46 Muhsin Khan: From Nutfah (drops of semen male and female discharges) when it is emitted;
53:47 Muhsin Khan: And that upon Him (Allah) is another bringing forth (Resurrection);
53:48 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who gives much or a little (or gives wealth and contentment),
53:49 Muhsin Khan: And that He (Allah) is the Lord of Sirius (the star which the pagan Arabs used to worship);
53:50 Muhsin Khan: And that it is He (Allah) Who destroyed the former 'Ad (people),
53:51 Muhsin Khan: And Thamud (people). He spared none of them.
53:52 Muhsin Khan: And the people of Nuh (Noah) aforetime, verily, they were more unjust and more rebellious and transgressing [in disobeying Allah and His Messenger Nuh (Noah) ].
53:53 Muhsin Khan: And He destroyed the overthrown cities [of Sodom to which Prophet Lout (Lot) was sent].
53:54 Muhsin Khan: So there covered them that which did cover (i.e. torment with stones).
53:55 Muhsin Khan: Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt.
53:56 Muhsin Khan: This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old.

How is it that Muhammad (AS) is then a false prophet, when he went to heavens and back, in a part of a single night? Even Obama accepted that fact.


53:57 Muhsin Khan: The Day of Resurrection draws near,
53:58 Muhsin Khan: None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it).
53:59 Muhsin Khan: Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)?
53:60 Muhsin Khan: And you laugh at it and weep not,
53:61 Muhsin Khan: Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.).
53:62 Muhsin Khan: So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone).

If the above is true, and I see no reason it should not be, then the idolators are those who worship anything other than Allah.


Ignorance is a mother! The one who knows the meaning of a word, best is the person whose mother tongue is word is spoken. Is there a possibility for a non Arab to know the meaning of a word, more than an arab? Is there a possibility for a non Yoruba to knowthe meaning of yoruba word more than a yoruba person? Can a person who has no igbo bloodline be better in igbo idiomatic expression than a person whose family is deeply rooted in igboland, and he/she grows up in that tribe.
This is your case and the cases of those Muta Mushrikun, who think they know more of arabic word root than Arabs!

Sometime, earlier this year, I was having a dialogue with a christian pastor who said something about Allah being an idol. When I pressed him hard, he had to admit that it is the only Deity that the Arabs did not have a stature to represent it. They knew, even then, just like my people the yoruba know that Allah is Eledumare. Yet neither of the two people in their paganic mindset had a symbol to say this is Allah or Eledumare. The arabs had all their idols being represented. But not Allah. The yorubas have their idols in their physical representations, too. But not Eledumare.



Absolutely. While Allah does not have His name starting with lower case "A", we know that when your human god, Jesus cried out, he did not say Jehovah or yahweh. He said Eloi, which is very close to Allah. And the differences, is in their semitic pronounciations.

I got to amuse myself: Where is Jehovah or Yahweh in Allehluyah, or however you people write it? Considering that language is a pronounciation/verbal medium, is it impossible that we see that Eloi is Allah, and Allehluyah is equal to Yaa Allah, except that the yaa is at the end in Alehluyaa?

Why dont u ask and highlight ur questions, instead of going into this meaningless adventure?

All of a sudden u have so much power to type, yet u cannot convincingly tell me why u are a muslim.

go and answer the direct questions I asked u from ur submission. And please ASK me direct questions. . . . I am NOT interested in ur opinion on the points I wrote.

davidylan:

I think he did . . . the fact that he had no point in itself was a point.

he is actually used to constituting a nuisance on every thread. He could not refute ANY of the reasons why I am not a muslim, neither could he answer the questions I asked him. The guy is pathetic.

Use your objectivity. . . .Did i mention 'deny' anywhere in my post?

#11 on: Today at 08:13:08 AM »
Quote from: davidylan on Today at 01:52:00 AM
I think he did . . . the fact that he had no point in itself was a point.

he is actually used to constituting a nuisance on every thread. He could not refute ANY of the reasons why I am not a muslim, neither could he answer the questions I asked him. The guy is pathetic.

David what other point shoulI provide, after I have pointed out that your leader, Noetic2 in his chaotic rants, he forgot to mentioned that Islam is completely different and separate from Christianity, without any single convergence. Islam does not have three gods, nor was the Quran written in Aramaic or hebrew or Yiddish! Islam did not give Jesus any honor while debasing the other prophets. Islam in essence presented them the way Allah their Lord God actually sent them.

You and Chaotic Noetic2 are in fantasy land. People in fantasy always live in fantastic dreams. Your being a Christian is not my problem. You are free to choose any religion that you want, or none at all. Its a free will to worship or not to worship. Its a free will to pretend to worship when your process in the day of judgement will be rejected.

But you must be challenged when you come up with lies and passing them as truth! Whats fair rewards in lying on Jesus son of Mary (AS) a prophet of his Lord, by putting him in the position of that Lord. Is it fair to Jesus, a servant and creation like others before him or to His Lord, Whom you have cheapened away from His sole position?

Allah says in the Quran that "who is worse in injustice than a person who speaks lies against his Creator? Did Jesus create any human being? No! Did he say even in the Bible that he will be the one who decides who goes to Paradise or Hellfire? A being who does not know when the time of the Hour is, can never be the Lord of that Hour! That belongs to the One who knows the Hour; Allah!

How couls I have made any point, when your Blind eyes can see where I quoted Mariam verse 71, exactly as it appears in the English translation. Unlike Noetic chaotic false quote, that very verse has nothing about Muslim must go into hell! Those of you conclude that Muslims are bound to hell are liars! If you liar about a think that 1.5 B people can disproof you on, is your testimony ever worthy of consideration? But it is not just the Muslims evidence that is against you on this. Every human being who can read and are sincere enough to speak the truth will be against you. President Obama says that Jesus is his lord. No body is concern about his statement, because in his mind he is correct. But the same man was able to state that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses (AS) all prayed together in Jerusalem. Now tell me if he lied?

How is it that this is possible, since they existed many centuries apart? The miracle of Allah in Islam made it possible. This event is recorded, the first leg in Surah Isra. Its very first verse. Then the heavenly journey part is what is recored in Surah Najm, Chapter 53 above! If what Obama said from the Quran is true, one wonders if the miracle is recorded for Moses who is a toraic prophet, or for Jesus who is an Injil prophet or for Muhammad who is the Quranic prophet? The answer is very clear. I further asked who was the leader at the "prayer" in Jerusalem? The fact that they prayed together in Quranshows that they agreed on the same principle! Who led whom is easy to know, since there was no time that Jesus or Moses disagreed with Muhammad, I will first assume that it is Muhammad that was the leader. But even the fact that they prayed together was not mentioned in the Quran, but in Ahadith. The same ahadith that mentioned Muhammad as the leader. If Muhammad was not a speaker of truth, Moses and Jesus had their chance, both at this event to escoriated him! But then they did not. You guys need to get the Quran and the ahadith to know the truth.


As to idolatry and three daughters of Allah, as stated by chaotic noetic, I wonder where that came from. I read Surah Najm, at least once while putting my response together. I provided all the verses and hiligted the part of the paganic idols of Arabs. There is no single time that Allah says that any of them is a child, daughter of His! Surah 112 completely destroys any misreading that Allah may have even a son! I guess it is easy for you guys to just lie than speak any truth. Lie on God, lie on His Angels, lie on His Messengers or Prophets. Some of the Messengers and or prophets you disregard altogether. You cheapened Moses Book and Prophethood to a one line "Love your God and Neighbors like yourself!" Is this a fair assessment of what Jesus said, when he said that he did not come to destoy the laws and the prophets, and cautioned all against such act after him? Your saying that you follow Jesus or he is your lord on one hand, but on the other dismissed his commandment, at least as I have stated about the laws and prophets before him, is an indication of your very opposition of what comes out of your mouth. And your disregarding Jesus, direct.

Is there any reason to even respond to you? Yes. If you rae not challenged, somebody and you the author of lies may believe it in your polluted mind that you have spoken the truth. The statement that if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is a master of that gimmick. He used it to get his ways. The same man that God Almighty has forced some truth from his lips, about late Saddam and WMD! At least Cheney has some agenda. Whats yours? Many have passed without being able to fulfill the same ambition: you will pass just like them. Then you will meet your Maker. It will not be Yahweh or Jehovah or Jesus!

But Allah says that none of the people of the book will completely die, except that he/she at time of death know the true position of Jesus; the Jews actually knowing that he was a prophet to them, and the Christians knowing that he was just a prophet, not a son or God!

Finally, Muhammad (AS) and Quran have nothing from the Jews or the Christians except that it told te truth about the past prophets. The information that you will find in the Quran is unlike what you will find in the Bible. A similitude of that is if I were to tell the story of Adunbi war, whie you tell the same story. Stylistically we will be very different. If my bloodline was involved in its planning and the prosecuting of that war, I am sure going to have more information, because of the authenticity of my source. This is the case with Quran, versus your Bible. While both had the story of Joseph (AS) for example. The details are like night and day. While the Quran sheds lights on many things, the Bible did no such thing!

One finds in the Quran that Joseph prayed that he goes to Jail, instead of performing the illegal sexual act. Joseph before heinterpreted the dream of the King and accpted to be the Treasurer, wanted his nae cleared, by asking the authority to fore the wife of his former master to confess the truth about the whole sexual accusation. Joseph's shirt, containing his body scent and sweat, mixed with his father's love for him was a source of which Allah used to give back Jacob (Israel) sight. I could also educate you that Joseph had a standing instruction that when the Children of Israel are leaving Misra (Egypt), they should exhume his body and carry it along! But wait they spend 40 years in the wildreness/desert with that body. It neither was decayed nor was it producing any bad odor. W must not even forget that this prophet died hundreds of years before his nations of people set out of Egypt. This very phenomenon goes to show how accurate the verse of the Quran that says that the dead Prophets, Shuadahsbodies are not eaten by the earth. A more recent example was during the time of the death of a companion of Prophet Muhammad. I think it was Abbass bin Abu Mutalib; as he had been dead for many many years, but they needed to move his body to another place. So they dugged him up, and find that his body was still as intact and his cloth was not soiled or being eaten up.

In the process of being moved, somebody incidentally scratched his foot. The open skin began to ooze out blood as if he was still alive!

The opposite condition is your Bible, which gives very few information, laced with lies from men. No wonder that you need to have personal interpretation of the Biblical verses, since man have so much embellished it to satisfy his own agendas. Is it possible that a thing protected from Allah be equal to a thing from Allah allowed to be influenced by the desires of man? If Muhammad (AS) was a false prophet, and he met with Jesus and Moses, and neither was able to accuse him of any falsehood, is it not in emptiness that you make such a statement? Who will know false prophet; Jesus or you?

I now ask you, where is a single false statement that Muhammad ever made. There are over 6000 verses in the Quran. Just one falsehood, I will like to read from you. If you are unable to do so, then you sir mr. noetic with chaotic mind is a darn liar!

I get it, Muhammad should have lied to satisfy your lust for cheap escape of personal responsibility for your own condition, towards the day of Judgement. He Muhammad (AS) Allah states in Surah Najm, above that he does not say anything out of desire! Read it again: and you are too young to be blind! Should a prophet not speak the truth? Jesus spoke the truth. He said to his Israelite audience; your lord and my lord is bt One God! There is no statement where Jesus that he was a Lord or God that the israelites must worship, the One who got them safely out of Egypt while He destroyed the mighty Pharaoh!

I am wasting my time with you, since there is no truth coming from your mouth!

Now to answer your Question: I am a muslim because my soul first acknowldege the Lordship and Godship of my Creator Allah. As I was born into the era of Muhammad's prophethood (AS), with the completion of the Islamic process of the only acceptable religion from man, I find that my natural inclination is to this religion. I came out of a womb of a woman, who at my birth was still a christian. He reared be. But throughout her effort and influence to make me a good person, I never once agreed wiith a 3 gods in 1 formula! I knew it as wrong when I was a little boy. I knew it as a wrong path leading to failure in the day of Judgement. In all throughout my life journey, I come in contact with Christians; men and women. Heck I was married to one, and I have two grown sons with her. I knew her ways of worship is not something I want. My soul disagrees with all the multiple gods, the cross, the convoluted and corrupt book, and the fact that there is no order in this religion called Christianity are all part of my never want to be one. I know their women can throw down now. Why not. They believe that you can do whatever you want as long as you believe in the blood, thats alright.

For me, showing me the twin/bad boys, so easily and quickly is not enough. I want my polished diamond to be wrapped in soft silk. Then another layer, and yet another, etc. I want to be the one who can unwrap it, since I am not interested in community chest/property!

I am a muslim because my soul agees with the religion. The food of my soul is worship of that One Whole Lord/God without a partner! I am very comfortable in my skin that One Master is definitely better than 3 competing with themselves, or even not. If you don't believe me, go ask people who are in partnership in an organization. How is it possible that there gods are in agreement all the time? A god that has a son is a useless god, and actually not a God! I wonder what the purpose of having that son is? Is it to take over after his demise, or what exactly?

Only a man without a beneficial knowledge of God will say God is three in one or He has a son. Allah says in Surah Mariam that everything in heavens and on earth comes to Him, only as servant/slave! That includes Jesus!

olabowale:

Now to answer your Question: I am a muslim because my soul first acknowldege the Lordship and Godship of my Creator Allah. As I was born into the era of Muhammad's [/b]prophethood (AS), with the completion of the Islamic process of the only acceptable religion from man, I find that [b]my natural inclination is to this religion. I came out of a womb of a woman, who at my birth was still a christian. He reared be. But throughout her effort and influence to make me a good person, I never once agreed wiith a 3 gods in 1 formula! I knew it as wrong when I was a little boy. I knew it as a wrong path leading to failure in the day of Judgement. In all throughout my life journey, I come in contact with Christians; men and women. Heck I was married to one, and I have two grown sons with her. I knew her ways of worship is not something I want. My soul disagrees with all the multiple gods, the cross, the convoluted and corrupt book, and the fact that there is no order in this religion called Christianity are all part of my never want to be one. I know their women can throw down now. Why not. They believe that you can do whatever you want as long as you believe in the blood, thats alright.

For me, showing me the twin/bad boys, so easily and quickly is not enough. I want my polished diamond to be wrapped in soft silk. Then another layer, and yet another, etc. I want to be the one who can unwrap it, since I am not interested in community chest/property!

I am a muslim because my soul agees with the religion. The food of my soul is worship of that One Whole Lord/God without a partner! I am very comfortable in my skin that One Master is definitely better than 3 competing with themselves, or even not. If you don't believe me, go ask people who are in partnership in an organization. How is it possible that there gods are in agreement all the time? A god that has a son is a useless god, and actually not a God! I wonder what the purpose of having that son is? Is it to take over after his demise, or what exactly?

Only a man without a beneficial knowledge of God will say God is three in one or He has a son. Allah says in Surah Mariam that everything in heavens and on earth comes to Him, only as servant/slave! That includes Jesus!

This is incredibly ridiculous. Are u educated at all?

I did not ask why you are not a christian. I asked u to tell me why u are a muslim or ask questions about my christian faith.

So the ONLY reason why u are a muslim is because ur soul agrees to it. This is the height of illiteracy.
what are the merits and demerits of islam?

How do u convince a person who has no knowledge of religion that islam is the ideal religion? why EXACTLY are u a muslim?
cant u give answers that reflect intelligence, rationality and logic? An answer that is easily comprehensive and NOT evasive?

must u use christianity to lend credence to islam? what sort of a religion is it that has no credit on its own, but must discredit another?
can u just tell me why u are muslim, without any reference to christianity?

No am not educated at all. Alhamdulillah, I have enough sense not to accept 3 gods and foolishly as an educated man like you, to turn around and make them 1! Mathematically, it does not add up. Emotionally it is not acceptable. No sane mind will accept it. God is not the Author of Confusion I say. He will not make Himself three as if performing magic and allows one part to die! Incredible education, Noetic; it is chaotic!

If I took 3 Million pounds from Prince charles or his mother and return 1 Million back to them, using Christian analogy, they will cry foul! They will take me to court. No lawyer, except a muslim who wants to awake their ignorant minds as they have believed that there is 3 in 1 will represent me. The Christian Judge will turn around and be practical in this case, whereas, a moment ago he was praying to 3 gods in 1!

If I do 1/3 work and say it is full work, because it is 3 in 1, I will be terminated for lying. I now put the onus on you to proof that you have not accepted a lie as truth. maybe ignorantly, since I see your writing as that of ignorant fellow.

Do you know what a soul is, Noetic2? It is chaotic that you do not know that it is that part of self that is the receptive of consciousness! I simply stated that my spirit/soul agrees to it. It drives me to it. It makes the process easy on my body. While you sleep through the night, my soul rest not, except that I make my morning prayer. I wake up and drawn to salah, immediately. Like I said, since you have no understanding, how would you know what it means to be one with one soul? I am happy that my soul is able by Allah's mercy on me, to overcome my bodily desires.

I find your lies as I find the stories in the fairytale novels. In the days when I used to read them, I get captivated by them, but yet, you know that there is no truth in them. A true believer in Allah needs not to have the same esoteric reasons that you listed, since it is Allah's Mercy that allows the soul and body to agree in His worship!

While you are conningly inviting us to disbelief, in the same way the people who have their altars and their gods do, Allah has made our hearts firm in His belief. And you complained that I am discreditting Christianity to support the authenticity of Islam. I am as guilty as much as you. But not more. My proof is that while I spoke the truth from your Bible; you on the otherhand shamelessly went about misquoting Mariam verse71! You on the other hand misquoted Surah Najm. Both qoutes I have presented to you, for your conscience to at least dialogue with you!

While I proved that your Bible have verses that say the exact opposite what others say, you went about calling the Quran Bible! What an absolute nonsense! It is absurd that you make such a statement. Has it ever reached your hearing that a Muslim calls the Quran, Bible? Which part; theJewish Torah or is it the Christian Gospel? You found the acts of apostles, or the letters of Paul, etcin the Quran?

If your Bible is found to have imprints of Mr. Paul, must you be dishonest to want to drag down the Quran, out of your glearing envy?

To call Muhammad (AS) a false prophet is the height of ignorance. You have been on that height all through, mr noetic. It is chaotic that you have such a lying Soul! You dont have to be Muslim, you can die as a christian or choose any other religion. Islam is fine without you.You want hell? Thank God you live in England. Its summer and it is hotter than the winter! Hell will be hotter.

noetic2:

13. Your bible is corrupt. . .I can show u the contradictions.

I agree that the bible is corrupt. . . the corrupt version is called KORAN.

Lol . . . Noetic I very much enjoyed your post and found the above quote to be most hilarious   

noetic2:

@ olabowale

did u make ANY point?

davidylan link=topic=281109.msg3992369#msg3992369 date=1244422320:

I think he did . . . the fact that he had no point in itself was a point.

  Lol . . . 

Alhaji,
how have you been? I have surely missed you

@Jesoul: Thanks. How have you been? I hope the family is well?

Interestingly, a liar was able to seduce you to accepting his premise! Is Quran a Bible? Read it. A poet like you is expected to appreciate written materials.Compare the Bile side by side with the Quran. There is no resemblance. Even remotely. Incidentally he says the Koran. Q is not next to K. If a person calls me Olajide, should I accept it as my name? Even if a person calls me Olawale, is that my name? Can a sane mind, the matriculated kind say that Q is K and U is O? Except a dishonest mind will make such leap of fate.

olabowale:

@Jesoul: Thanks. How have you been? I hope the family is well?

All is well sir . How is my Olayiwola?

olabowale:

Interestingly, a liar was able to seduce you to accepting his premise! Is Quran a Bible? Read it. A poet like you is expected to appreciate written materials.Compare the Bile side by side with the Quran. There is no resemblance. Even remotely. Incidentally he says the Koran. Q is not next to K. If a person calls me Olajide, should I accept it as my name? Even if a person calls me Olawale, is that my name? Can a sane mind, the matriculated kind say that Q is K and U is O? Except a dishonest mind will make such leap of fate.

that is by leap years and galaxies the truest thing I have seen you write on NL

@noetic
whats so evil about being an atheist?

noetic2:

let me start by stating that I did not inherit christianity, was not born a christian neither was i a miracle seeker who turned to christianity (I have nothing against this group of people, just feel the need to make the clarification). I am a rational believer of the christian faith, which explains why[b] I can CONFIDENTLY debate and defend my beliefs[/b], quite unlike the atheist who CANNOT produce a scientific or intellectual evidence to support their belief/disbelief in the non-existence of GOD

It is one thing to "defend" and "debate" your believes but it is another thing to come out and tell lies in the process of "defending" and "debating" your beliefs all you have done so far is tell LIES including throwing the bible itself under the bus. . It is good to debate your faith but when you spend all you time attacking others then you should know that you are doing your self and your faith a disservice. I will only spend my time pointing out your lies and misinformation.

1. The fair reward:

I believe u know what christianity is all about. Its simply about my acknowledgement and acceptance of Christ as my Lord and GOD and the acceptance of His Gift of Salvation.
In return Jesus expects me to reflect the works of the spirit as stated in Galatians 5:22-23

You have forgotten that you are dealing with a book that is very internally contradictory. Jesus himself said that salvation is not his to grant or give but his fathers and it is dependant only on his fathers will, if he chooses to grant he grants if he doesn't he refuses.

Joh 6:65  And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Jesus says it in black and white that salvation is not his to give but his fathers and that depands on the will of the father.

Php 2:13
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.  

3. Women Rights/ Human Rights/Works of The spirit.

I love to protect the defenceless. women, children, poor people, orphans, convicted and condemend or ostracised people, including children, prostitutes, destitutes and refugees. I love to do my little bits to make the world a better place. Does my faith/believe in Jesus prevents me from doing this? NO. . . It actually considers them as good deeds.

When you openly lie like this with a striaght face then your lies have to be exposed. There is NOTHING like women's right in Christianity, Women have no right when they lived under the laws of the god of the bible who you believe in. The bible god VERY CLEARLY says that men are greater than women and women are the weaker sex. When he was placing monetary value on human beings the price of the man was twice that of the woman.Leviticus 27:3-7. Under the laws of your bible god mentrating women were considered a taboo and should not even be looked at. Leviticus 18:19 Goes onto say that even LOOKING at a menstruating woman is wrong. women hands were to be cut off without mercey if they try to save their husbands from his attackers. Disobedient Children were to be stoned to death. And keep in mind that your same god said that all his laws are perfect.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

Under the divine injunctions of your bible god innocent women were killed, raped and innocent children burnt alive and offered as a burnt offering to the god you believe in according to the bible.

I hate the incessant violations of human/women rights especially in islamic and atheist (communist) countries. I want to make the world a better place. The bible discourages me from beating my wife (when I marry one), divorce her by mouth 3 times, arrange temporary marriages et al . . ,  it encourages me to love her. The bible discourages me from condoning any form of evil (highlighted above) It encourages me to live above board. The bible (works of the spirit) conforms with my moral and personal convictions.

The countries that uphold and give women the highest rights are atheist countries (Finaland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Slovenia, Cezch Republic). Southern Nigeria is mostly populated by Christian and women have better rights as far as i am concerned in China than in southern Nigeria. The bible does not give women equal rights but instead tells them to keep quite and not to speak in churches, they are never to usurp the powers of men. There are so many Christains that will not attend Churches that are headed by women because the bible tells them so. The bible has always placed men ahead of women and women were subjugated under the laws of the bible.

4. A true Helper.

[b]I am encouraged to ask and receive. I am encouraged to seek for help from HIM at all times. He says He shall neither leave nor forsake me. Has He been true to His word? has He answered whenever I call? Has He been my help at all time? Does He inspire, guide and direct me? Do I get personal and exclusive miracles from Him, [/b]which otherwise could not have been resolved by any physical or intelligent means? Do I trust HIM based on the events of yesterday to take care of my future? Has HE been faithful to me?

The answer to all those is a bold YES. christianity is not a mere religion. It is a relationship with the father. A relationship is a two way traffic. If the answer to any of the above questions was No. . . then I certainly wouldnt be a christian. He has been faithful, I have nothing to gain by living in denial. . . .If Jesus has not been faithful to me. . . then I am one of the most stupid persons on the planet to remain a christian.

But if all of the above is true. . . do I have any reason to stop being a christian?. . . would u?

If Christianity is true then you should expect Christians to be better protected than non Christians, You will expect christians to be happier, richer and live more healthy lives than non christians, since christians claim that they are in a loving relationship with a god or father that loves them and will always protect and provide for them, There is absolutely NO evidence to show that. Christains suffer harm, diseases, divorces, accidents, death just like non christians. Christians are not richer than non christians, they do not live longer lives than non christians and are not even more moral than non christians. Your assertion above is what i call delusion at its best.

The world around is completely different from what you are saying. Infact when the list of countries where people are most happy, fullfilled and more forward looking in life was published atheist countries came out most in the top 10. There is no evidence to show that there is any "helper" that helps the christians. if there is it will be seen, christians will suffer less, live longer, they will be happier and have more possesions than non christains but that is not the case.

10. Jesus Bridged the gap.

What is the gap? The gap is my craving for answer to certain questions that question my christian faith.
some of the questions are: who is God? who created God? where was God's beginning? How was God made?  whats life like after death? what happens when I die? what if there is no GOD? what id GOD's ontology? et all.

But since I acknowledged the gift of salvation from Jesus, I have received a complete understanding of these questions and subjects which explains my confidence and ability to addressing these issues when ever they are raised on this forum.

I could go on and on, cos I have numerous reasons to be a christian.

You have never answered any of such questions, all you do is throw some lies here and there and run away.

2. Have you Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelt and Tasted GOD?

I have seen HIM in my dream. . . .and I consider that enough, at least for me.
I have continuously heard HIM. . . He continues to teach, instruct and inspire me on the eternal truths of day to day life.
I have felt, smelt and touched GOD by holy spirit encounters in the mode of worship.

You cannot scientifically establish that God has not spoken to me, or that I have not seen, heard or felt HIM.

Moslems and people of other faiths see their deities in their dreams, Why is it that your god only appears to you in your dream? is it not the same god that was publicly addressing the ancient jews in the bible? is it not the same god that was leading his chosen men in wars with his great sword of slaughter? why is he now only "appearing" to people in their dreams?   . Every believer of one god or the other has touched ,felt and smelt his/her god in one way or the other and it is up to you to prove that they are lying.

5. Where is your logical proof that establishes the existence of GOD?

The logical evidences that support the existence of GOD abounds all over nairaland as established by daviddylan, olaadegbu and other resident christians. I do not intend to brouch this aspect.

but let me establish the inconsistencies of the atheist's ignorantly driven logic.The atheist says that:

The earth and all that is in it could not have been created by an uncreated, unseen, unexperienced and unprovable GOD,. . . . but could have come into existence by an uncreated, unseen, unexperienced and unprovable "big bang".

If at all there is a GOD, He is a summation of ALL that exist. . . . but God does not exist neither can HE create.

There is no God . . . .but all the evil in todays world can be traced to GOD.

the theist is not serious because he cannot scientifically prove GOD's existence . . . .I (atheist) am intelligent, though I am yet to scientifically prove God does not exist.

The burden of proof is on the theist . . . . why do I(atheist) have to prove anything, I (atheist) am just intellectually bankrupt.

I agree that the atheist can not scientifically disprove the existence of god, pls go ahead and prove or provided scientitic ecidence for your god. you have the all might and all knowing holy spirit in you so you should be able to do this pls dont embarass me. tel the holy spirit to give you the evidence so that you can show us, you can fast and pray for 7 days.

6. Why does ur bible oppose science and medicine.

There is no single scripture that says "christians dont go to hospitals". paul also asked timothy to use medicine for his stomach.

You also cannot separate God from science. Any attempt to do so, is an attempt to create a new religion. science is man's way of seeking answers to every day's questions, it does not negate anything about GOD. At least science has not been able to prove the non-existence of GOD.

christianity does not oppose/negate medcine but it acknowledges the limits of medical knowledge. This acknowledgement is usually followed by divine interventions called miracle.

If there was ever a divine being that christians can call unto who helps them when they are sick, christians will NEVER go to the hospitals. Was it not jesus that told his disciples that who ever follows him will have the ability to heal the sick? Why was paul unable to heal timothy and told him to use medicine for his stomach. Did jesus disappoint him the way he has disappointed milliuons of christians who are calling unto his name for healing? What are miracles? Can you name Just one miracle that has been medically and scientifically verified? If there is a god that heals and protect christians they will never fall sick in the first place because no loving "father" will allow his children to ever fall sick in the first place he will always protect them from the "spirit" of illness.

8. I was once like u. . .I was once a christian. . . reading the bible, preaching, defending christianity until I found out the truth. The bible was written by barbaric men,  . there is no GOD.

My dear, u were NEVER a christian. Christianity is not centered around the bible but around JESUS. Thats why christianity is a relationship with HIM. If u had a relationship with HIM, u would never have left ur faith, He would have guided and led u. u were simply a CHURCH GOER, who sought after human acceptance. good luck with ur new found faith.

Throwing the bible under the bus.  . The only place where the story of jesus and how he lived his life was told is the bible and no where else in this world. Without the bible there will be no story of jesus for any one to read and believe in. By the way your Moslem friends on the other end always say the same too. They always say that a person was never really a Moslem if he leaves Islam. You guys are all the same.

9. If God is perfect, He would not ask for worship. why is God egoic?

This is an intellectually bankrupt statement/assertion. what does perfection mean? who is GOD?

If u refer to the christian ontological definition of GOD, then God is not subject to human intellectual capacity. He said "your ways are not my ways, neither are ur thoughts mine".

If u consider the literal meaning of perfection, it only fits into the definitive concept of whoever is defining perfection. So if u can define perfection and tell me why GOD should subscribe to ur own definition of perfection, then I will agree that GOD is NOT perfect.

All talk NO substance at all. What does perfection mean to you and how does the bible define it?

10. God is one-sided. He supported Abel not Cain. He blessed Jacob not Esau. He supported Isaac not Ishmael.
I have repeatedly asked the postulators of this thought to rationally explain it, no one has so far been able to do so. Let me start by saying that I believe that GOD is fair to all, at least untill the earth/world is judged.

Cain offered the worst of his goods as sacrifice, Abel offered the best of his flock. . . why then should cain's sacrifice be acceptable? why then should cain be prefered to Abel?

You are lying because the bible says no such thing.

Gen4:2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. Gen4:3In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.  
Gen 4:4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering,  
Gen 4:5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.  

The bible only said that cain brought some fruits of the soil as offering while able brought fat portions from some of the firstborn flocks. The bible NEVER says that cain brought worst of his goods. I don't believe in all these myths of cain and able but read the bible and make sure you are not always caught lying all the time.

11. How can u explain the many genocides, killings and ethnic cleansing that happened in the OLD TESTAMENT. the GOD of OT is a murderer, killer and a dangerous guy. If God is good, then He is not God, If God is Love then He is not God . . . or whatever.

The OT is a very interesting book. However like any other book, it is up to the reader to deduce ANYTHING he/she wants to from the book. while ur deduction from the OT is God is a bad guy, that is not my deduction.

My deduction from the OT is a GOD, who will keep HIS word, deliver HIS promises and protect HIS own, no matter what it takes. Even if it means the destruction of idolatry nations. The OT is a reflection of God's faithfullness to perfect HIS word, promises and assurances in HIS children's lives.

why are u not on HIS side?

Same goes for the koran while your deductions from the koran and allah is bad that is not the deduction of the moslem. The OT god failed to protect his own, he promised the anceint jews that their lands will never be attacked and they will never be defeated again but he failed, they were attacked and defeated over and
over again. So the OT is a reflection of god's faithfullness to perfect HIS word righT?  . What is there to gain on the side of a god that tells his chosen men to kill innocent babies and scarifice them as burnt offering unto him?

21. How can u foolishly believe that God's covenant with Noah caused the rainbow. Science has proven otherwise.

Scientific evidences that establish that Noah's flood indeed happened have been tendered on this forum, our resident atheists and geologist COULD NOT refute this evidences.

The "scientific" evidences that you tendered are not scientific evidence at all and they have been refuted. On the other haan scientific evidence that showed that the Noah's flood never happened were tendered and you ran away with out ever refuting them. In fact not only scientific evidence, Historical evidence were provided that showed that the flood never took place and you did not even attempt to refute them.

Where is ur scientific evidence to establish that GOD and Noah did NOT have a convenant?
Since it has been scientifically proven that Noah's flood indeed happened, then I believe that rainbow is/was as a result of GOD's convenant with Noah. Can u scientifically prove that GOD exerted no influence on the first formation of the rainbow?

Again all talk and NO substance. You on the other hand have to first of all prove or provide just one evidence that light did not refract when it comes into contact with water droplets in the earth's atmosphere prior to Noah's flood. The bible says that god put the rainbow in the sky as a conenant between him and humanity, but rainbows do not only occur in the sky, they occur where ever there is a refraction of water droplet or moisture in the earth atmosphere. Like on beaches or by water waves.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Surfing_Rainbow.JPG/350px-Surfing_Rainbow.JPG  [/img]

16. Do the calculation for me, when did Jesus die? when did He rise up? whats the evidence of His ressurection?

Jesus died and ressurected on the THIRD DAY. The most potent evidence of this ressurection is the psycological impact of the ressurection of Jesus on the disciples.

Remember that all His disciples absconded when He was on trial. Peter aand his cousins went back to their fishing business. How could such a man (peter) now risk his life days later, to preach about a man (Jesus) if He (Jesus) had not ressurected?

Peter saw a ressurected Jesus. Thats why He could risk His life for Jesus, after all they saw Jesus go through.

Do you have a book that was written by peter where he said any of these or do you have book where others said that peter did what you said he did? Mohammed saw angel Gabriel that is why he was also willing to die for his faith. He fought wars and risked his life too.

17. You must be stupid to believe the creation story of Genesis 1 and 2.

In debates there is something called a superior argument. If point A is wron, u simply produce point B as an alternative. So lets assume the bible account is false,  .where is the alternative? who created the earth and its components? when? where? how?

You dont need to have an alternative to know that sango or the other yoruba gods did not create the universe we live in, all you need is just to hear their creation accounts and you will know its false. The same goes for the bible.

Na wa o, see how much some people can write just to argue against God.

@Olabowale

welldorn sir, may the blessing of ALLAH,surround you and ur family

manmustwac:

@noetic
whats so evil about being an atheist?

I have from the very beginning of my discussions/debate with atheists asked for the RATIONALITY of atheism. I just don't get it.

why should a believe/disbelieve which is not established on any evidence (scientific or intellectual) ridicule beliefs that are based on faith?
since no evidence has been produced to support atheist belief/disbelief for the non-existence of GOD, it is safe to state that, atheism is based on FAITH. And this is why it is baffling?

In my opinion atheism is evil inclined, as it is neither logically, scientifically nor intellectually tenable?
why should I spend the whole of my life believing there is no God, only to find out at death that there is one? am I possessed?

What is also illogical is the fact that a person can claim to follow an ideal entity, Jesus son of Mary in this case, but turn around and disregard all his statements, and injuctions that he left!

Is it sensible that the religion that Jesus participated in be abandoned, and just because a completely different one is set up with only his name borrowed for it makes this new religion right? If the Jewish religion in practice today is different from the religion of Moses, can we sincerely say that the Jews are followers of Moses, in the real sense of the word?

If Jesus instructed that the Torah and its prophets be relevant throughout time, and a people who claim to be Jesus followers render the OT irrelevant after being advised as above, can we say that this people are truly following Jesus?

If the position of Jesus was stated loud and clear by him, while he was preaching, is it a sensible thing that his position be exagerated to what it is not, just because he was perceived to have died and risen from death, in a badly calculated 3 days?

Christianity, in my opinion, considering the above, without going to more accusations, is just as guilty as the Atheist. At least the atheists are not pretenders. Pretensions is hypocritical and that is worse. Faith is neither scientifically quantified or qualified. So it is when it comes to applications of intellect or logic to it. If any of these three is an ingredient of Faith, the knowledgeable, the logical and the scientists would have been the primaryand earliest followers of each prophet when the mission was began.

It should be realised that Faith being a conviction in the heart and mind (soul/spirit) without first being driven by logic, science and or knowledge, is what made the lowest of the communities accept their prophets, very easily and much earlier in drove than the powerfuls and influencials.

The fact that christianity is guilty and hypocritical in the claim that it follows Jesus, rather the only obvious thing, the borrowing of his name for a completely different religion is why I should not bother myself with them. How do you dialogue with a person who has already made up his mind that Blue color is yellow? He has decided that the only pigment he sees is yellow when anything blue is brought in!

But when the people who are not color blind like him present overwhelming evidence of truth, he resort to calling them liars or worse. Is there more an unjust person who lied against his Creator? Reducing him to a man, in the personage of a prophet, just because the miracle of that prophet is new and unique?

But every miracle is new and unique. If not, it will not be a miracle and be able to get the attentions of those who witnessed it. I will only from now onward respond to posts that speak falsehood about Islam, whenever I come across them.

olabowale:

What is also illogical is the fact that a person can claim to follow an ideal entity, Jesus son of Mary in this case, but turn around and disregard all his statements, and injuctions that he left!

Is it sensible that the religion that Jesus participated in be abandoned, and just because a completely different one is set up with only his name borrowed for it makes this new religion right? If the Jewish religion in practice today is different from the religion of Moses, can we sincerely say that the Jews are followers of Moses, in the real sense of the word?

If Jesus instructed that the Torah and its prophets be relevant throughout time, and a people who claim to be Jesus followers render the OT irrelevant after being advised as above, can we say that this people are truly following Jesus?

If the position of Jesus was stated loud and clear by him, while he was preaching, is it a sensible thing that his position be exagerated to what it is not, just because he was perceived to have died and risen from death, in a badly calculated 3 days?

Christianity, in my opinion, considering the above, without going to more accusations, is just as guilty as the Atheist. At least the atheists are not pretenders. Pretensions is hypocritical and that is worse. Faith is neither scientifically quantified or qualified. So it is when it comes to applications of intellect or logic to it. If any of these three is an ingredient of Faith, the knowledgeable, the logical and the scientists would have been the primaryand earliest followers of each prophet when the mission was began.

It should be realised that Faith being a conviction in the heart and mind (soul/spirit) without first being driven by logic, science and or knowledge, is what made the lowest of the communities accept their prophets, very easily and much earlier in drove than the powerfuls and influencials.

The fact that christianity is guilty and hypocritical in the claim that it follows Jesus, rather the only obvious thing, the borrowing of his name for a completely different religion is why I should not bother myself with them. How do you dialogue with a person who has already made up his mind that Blue color is yellow? He has decided that the only pigment he sees is yellow when anything blue is brought in!

But when the people who are not color blind like him present overwhelming evidence of truth, he resort to calling them liars or worse. Is there more an unjust person who lied against his Creator? Reducing him to a man, in the personage of a prophet, just because the miracle of that prophet is new and unique?

But every miracle is new and unique. If not, it will not be a miracle and be able to get the attentions of those who witnessed it. I will only from now onward respond to posts that speak falsehood about Islam, whenever I come across them.

This is hilarious.

What religion did Jesus practice? where were His instructions?

Don't laugh too hard, yet, until you think for a critical moment by asking yourself and answering the following qusetions:

From Adam to Jesus; is there a prophet who has no instructions to worship The Creator?
Was Jesus a Prophet?
Was Jesus exempted from worshipping his Creator, while Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, etc were required to worship the Creator?
If Jesus worshipped his Creator, then in what religion methodology did he follow?
Was that methodology different from that of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim to name just a few?
Was Jesus the Creator of heavens and earth, including the Angel Gabreil who was sent to assist him in time of difficulties?
Was Jesus the Creator of Adam, etc?
Wouldn't it foolish, if Jesus was and then in the Bible narration of creation of man, we read that he would be telling himself what he was about to do?
If Jesus worshipped his Creator as we read that the did, even prayed to him, alone and thought his companions how to worship the Creator, did he worship as the Jews do today, by bopping their face toward the "wailing wall?"
Is the religion of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, even Jesus that they worshipped their Creator by still consistently available to us today?
What is the name of that religion?
Is God the Creator not consistent in His way and reliably unchanging God?
Is the religion Judaism?
Is there anything called Jewish people in the time of Moses, since they are called Israelites or Children of Israel?
Was Jew or Judaism ever in existence until the Children of Israel nations were broken down to Israel and Judea?
Is the religion Christianity?
Was Christianity even a religion until after Jesus was "lifted up" by his Creator?
Were Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, etc of the Jewish religion or was it the Christian religion?

I will leave Islam out of it for now. But I will remind everyone that Islam simply means "Submission to the Will of the Creatoor, in worship, etc". Ibrahim's statement in Surah An Am (Chapter 6, one of the last 5 verses) comes to mind.

Instructions left by Jesus, you asked?
Did he say that he should be worshipped, along with his Creator?
Did he say that people should pray to his Mother as the Catholics do?
Did he say that he is God, which will tell us that there are more than 1 gods?
Did he say that he was the Creator, too, which means that there are more than 1 Creator?

There is the instruction, according to the Bible that Jesus said: I am not here to abolish but to fulfill the Laws and the prophets. And any who does or suggest anyone to do so, is the least in heaven.

What is the actual meaning of that statement of Jesus, except it is an instruction? Please, noetic no chaotic explanation or interpretation. We can read english. It is simple and direct instruction.

Did you, the Christian body ever follow this instruction, ever, I said?
Did you not take the statement of Paul and company to overcome that of Jesus, whereby you destroyed the laws and the prophets instead of fulfilling them?

Now when you finish answering these sets of questions, you can laugh hard at yourself, if you still remain a christian.

olabowale:

David what other point shoulI provide, after I have pointed out that your leader, Noetic2 in his chaotic rants, he forgot to mentioned that Islam is completely different and separate from Christianity, without any single convergence.

But islam is heavily dependent on christianity no?

olabowale:

Don't laugh too hard, yet, until you think for a critical moment by asking yourself and answering the following qusetions:

From Adam to Jesus; is there a prophet who has no instructions to worship The Creator?

None of them. They were all asked to worship GOD.

Was Jesus a Prophet?

Jesus is GOD the son. John 10: 30 "I and the Father are one."

Was Jesus exempted from worshipping his Creator, while Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, etc were required to worship the Creator?

Jesus Himself was the creator. John 1:3-4
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

If Jesus worshipped his Creator, then in what religion methodology did he follow?

When Jesus prayed, He prayed to GOD the father  .  . . not because He had to, but so that we may learn to pray.
He taught us to say the Lord's prayer. . . . I am sure even u know that.

Was that methodology different from that of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim to name just a few?

Adam was never asked/called to worship. All that was requested of him was to dwell in GOD's presence in the garden.
Noah was never called to worship. He was told to ask men to repent from their wicked ways and to help save mankind from impending judgement.
Who is ibrahim?

Abraham was a pagan, who left his father's gods to obey the one and only GOD. His faith in an invisible GOD was justified.

Was Jesus the Creator of heavens and earth, including the Angel Gabreil who was sent to assist him in time of difficulties?

YES . . . Jesus made heaven and earth. John 1:3-4
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Was Jesus the Creator of Adam, etc?

Yes He did. see above answer.

Wouldn't it foolish, if Jesus was and then in the Bible narration of creation of man, we read that he would be telling himself what he was about to do?

what are u talking about?

If Jesus worshipped his Creator as we read that the did, even prayed to him, alone and thought his companions how to worship the Creator, did he worship as the Jews do today, by bopping their face toward the "wailing wall?"

All He did was say PRAYERS to GOD like christians do today. I am very sure He never prayed 5 times daily to a blood-thirsty, unforgiving and heartless "allah".

Is the religion of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, even Jesus that they worshipped their Creator by still consistently available to us today?

Do u know the meaning of worship at all?
u keep using the word worship, what does worship mean?

Each men served God as requested by God. Jesus is GOD in human form.

What is the name of that religion?

I have no idea of what u are talking about. But let me state that christianity aint a religion, its a relationship with GOD through Christ Jesus.

Is God the Creator not consistent in His way and reliably unchanging God?

of course He is. But I am very SURE, He is not the allah u worship.

Jehovah GOD is NOT allah.

Is the religion Judaism?

what are u talking about?

Is there anything called Jewish people in the time of Moses, since they are called Israelites or Children of Israel?

How relevant is this question to the topic?

Was Jew or Judaism ever in existence until the Children of Israel nations were broken down to Israel and Judea?

I am not a good student of history neither do I subscribe to judaism. you are asking the wrong person.

Is the religion Christianity?

The word christianity is derived from the word christian . . . .
Christians are those in fellowship with GOD through Christ Jesus.
what were u saying, again?

Was Christianity even a religion until after Jesus was "lifted up" by his Creator?

The Christian faith is based on a mandate stated in mark 16:15-16

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Were Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, etc of the Jewish religion or was it the Christian religion?

I believe I answered that earlier.

I will leave Islam out of it for now. But I will remind everyone that Islam simply means "Submission to the Will of the Creatoor, in worship, etc". Ibrahim's statement in Surah An Am (Chapter 6, one of the last 5 verses) comes to mind.

Regardless of what u think islam means. allah is NOT the creator.

It has been repeatedly established on this forum that allah is a blood thirsty moon arabian god, with a wife called allat and 3 daughters.
allah is NOT the GOD of the bible.

Instructions left by Jesus, you asked?
Did he say that he should be worshipped, along with his Creator?

YES He did . . .
John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. He said this because HE is GOD.

Did he say that people should pray to his Mother as the Catholics do?

why dont u ask the catholics.

Did he say that he is God, which will tell us that there are more than 1 gods?
Did he say that he was the Creator, too, which means that there are more than 1 Creator?

must u recycle questions. I believe I already answered this.

There is the instruction, according to the Bible that Jesus said: I am not here to abolish but to fulfill the Laws and the prophets. And any who does or suggest anyone to do so, is the least in heaven.

This simply implies that while He has fulfilled the laws on our behalf, He does not expect us to live in sin against the law.

why are quoting from the "corrupt" bible? u should be quoting from ur "holy" koran.

What is the actual meaning of that statement of Jesus, except it is an instruction? Please, noetic no chaotic explanation or interpretation. We can read english. It is simple and direct instruction.

what are u talking about? are u saying this in reference to mohammed?

is mohammed a prophet? what makes him a prophet?
did he perform any miracle? did he make any prophecy? does his message connect to those before him?
was his coming prophesied?

Did you, the Christian body ever follow this instruction, ever, I said?
Did you not take the statement of Paul and company to overcome that of Jesus, whereby you destroyed the laws and the prophets instead of fulfilling them?

now, u sound ignorantly deluded. what EXACTLY are u talking about.

Now when you finish answering these sets of questions, you can laugh hard at yourself, if you still remain a christian.

;DI am still laughing . . . These are the type of NONSENSE people are brainwashed with in the mosque.

over 15 of ur mohammedan colleagues replied to the "why I am not a muslim" thread and NONE of you all could state why EXACTLY u are a muslim.
u need to think and rethink again.

@Noetic2: « #28 on: Yesterday at 11:07:21 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 09:34:37 PM
Don't laugh too hard, yet, until you think for a critical moment by asking yourself and answering the following qusetions:

From Adam to Jesus; is there a prophet who has no instructions to worship The Creator?

None of them. They were all asked to worship GOD.

My question and your answer and both left intact for people to see how delutional humans can be.

Quote
Was Jesus a Prophet?

Jesus is GOD the son. John 10: 30 "I and the Father are one."

My first question listed Jesus as a prophet, like other prophets. You didn't break into pieces, since you know that he was listed in the company of noble people. But Allah allows by your silence in the acceptance ofhis prophetic condition brought out the truth. Te believers read your statement and see the truth, separately from the mixture of the lies you are trying to overwhelm us with.

All of a sudden, now in the question immediately above, since I isolated Jesus, he miraculously becomes God the son! Which one is he; God or the son of God, since there is no man/male who is son and father all roll in one? No man mounts his mother while he is the son of the same mother. Or are you the husband of a woman in england, while you are also the son of the woman? I am only responding to your entry; John 10:30, literally. By the way, any verse of the Bible that opposes the posibility that Jesus is a god, will render the Bible corrupt, unsure, hence John 10:30, is unreliable.

Lets try the verse in Mark, which says that Jesus stated that him and his audience have the same single Lord God. How about all his prayers in the garden of Geshemane? How about his cry on the cross; My God, my God, ? I hope you don;t think he was talking about himself? Are you familiar with the yoruba statement :won ro wipe were ni (They think he is a madman)? Only people who are screwed up in the head talk to himself.

Quote
Was Jesus exempted from worshipping his Creator, while Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, etc were required to worship the Creator?
Jesus Himself was the creator. John 1:3-4
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Did God take permission from him, before he started to create? Is there a direct verse in the Bible, the OT or NT that we can check? What you have put forward is blasphamous, to say the least. If Jesus was the Creator, would there be a need for him to tell himself about his intent to create man? Creating "Through" gives us the indication that he was not the Creator, but at best and if the statement is true (not true), he was only a medium. For an entity to be the Creator and at the same time the entity through all things are made is very confusing.

Let me help you; GM makes automobiles. Through Steel/metals, etc GM makes automobiles. Which one is Jesus, Steel/metal or GM? He can't be he two at the same time.

Quote
If Jesus worshipped his Creator, then in what religion methodology did he follow?
When Jesus prayed, He prayed to GOD the father . . . not because He had to, but so that we may learn to pray.
He taught us to say the Lord's prayer. . . . I am sure even u know that.

Am not a christian and frankly I don't care for Christianity. But since we are discussing Christianity, if all you have to do, as it is what Jesus taught you is the Lord's prayer, how long does it take to say it, that you waste 1 hour or more in the church? Such a read that will take 2 minutes, tops, does not need 1 hour plus in the church to say. Or does it? Did Jesus teach you to sing and clap, too? OR you made that up just to make your saying the Lord's Prayer seem rich and worth while? If Jesus stated that its the Lord's prayer that is sufficient, I did not read his name in it. And how convenient that you ignore his injuction about the Laws and the prophets of Old!

Is your attention to Jesus commandment a selective one? Accepting some and rejecting others? I do not want to spend too much time on you, because it is my honest opinion that you may not be a person who reflects. Sorry. Thats my opinion.

olabowale:

@Noetic2: « #28 on: Yesterday at 11:07:21 PM » 
My question and your answer and both left intact for people to see how delutional humans can be.


My first question listed Jesus as a prophet, like other prophets. You didn't break into pieces, since you know that he was listed in the company of noble people. But Allah allows by your silence in the acceptance ofhis prophetic condition brought out the truth. Te believers read your statement and see the truth, separately from the mixture of the lies you are trying to overwhelm us with.

All of a sudden, now in the question immediately above, since I isolated Jesus, he miraculously becomes God the son! Which one is he; God or the son of God, since there is no man/male who is son and father all roll in one? No man mounts his mother while he is the son of the same mother. Or are you the husband of a woman in england, while you are also the son of the woman? I am only responding to your entry; John 10:30, literally. By the way, any verse of the Bible that opposes the posibility that Jesus is a god, will render the Bible corrupt, unsure, hence John 10:30, is unreliable.

If this is allah's way of establishing the "truth", then allah is ignorant and very unintelligent.

Jesus is GOD who lived with us, I have produced the relevant verses that established this.

Lets try the verse in Mark, which says that Jesus stated that him and his audience have the same single Lord God. How about all his prayers in the garden of Geshemane? How about his cry on the cross; My God, my God, ? I hope you don;t think he was talking about himself? Are you familiar with the yoruba statement :won ro wipe were ni (They think he is a madman)? Only people who are screwed up in the head talk to himself.

do u know what ur problem is? u think u can use words and linguistic semantics to prove/disprove a religious cause.
Thats impossible, where are the biblical verses that says Jesus is a prophet?
Is there anywhere He stated that He is NOT God? was not there from the very beginning? did not make the heavens and the earth? we should not pray in HIS name? that He will not return?

just produce a bible verse that establishes each of these questions. You are simply ignorant and the ONLY language u understand as a mohammedan is bullying and violence. you have written over 5000 words, without stating anything intelligent, meaningful or making either a biblical or quranic quotation that justifies any of ur misinformed postulations. You are simply ignorant and misguided.

why should I believe a dead man called mohammed?
why should I believe the words of a man who could sleep with a 9 year old girl?
why should I believe a so-called "prophet" who neither performed a miracle nor made a prophecy?
why should I believe in a man who preached hate and called for amputation, beheading and apostasy for non-subscribers?
why should I believe mohammed at all? his historical antecedents are very very criminal.

I have repeatedly showed u from ur koran (quran 2:87) where the holy spirit was acknowledged to have worked with Jesus. Jesus lived 600 years before mohammed. Yet u ignorantly claim that  mohammed is the holy spirit. u claim that there is no trinity. how then do u explain the presence of the holy spirit (being mentioned) in the koran?

I have also shown u the koranic verse where Jesus said "blessed is the day I was born, the day I will die and be ressurected" koran 19:33-34
And u ignorantly claim Jesus did not die. Are u educated at all?
can u read and understand simple english?

Did God take permission from him, before he started to create? Is there a direct verse in the Bible, the OT or NT that we can check? What you have put forward is blasphamous, to say the least.  If Jesus was the Creator, would there be a need for him to tell himself about his intent to create man? Creating "Through" gives us the indication that he was not the Creator, but at best and if the statement is true (not true), he was only a medium. For an entity to be the Creator and at the same time the entity through all things are made is very confusing.

Let me help you; GM makes automobiles. Through Steel/metals, etc GM makes automobiles. Which one is Jesus, Steel/metal or GM? He can't be he two at the same time.

whats the meaning of these? is this all u have to say?

Am not a christian and frankly I don't care for Christianity. But since we are discussing Christianity, if all you have to do, as it is what Jesus taught you is the Lord's prayer, how long does it take to say it, that you waste 1 hour or more in the church? Such a read that will take 2 minutes, tops, does not need 1 hour plus in the church to say. Or does it? Did Jesus teach you to sing and clap, too? OR you made that up just to make your saying the Lord's Prayer seem rich and worth while? If Jesus stated that its the Lord's prayer that is sufficient, I did not read his name in it. And how convenient that you ignore his injuction about the Laws and the prophets of Old!

Is your attention to Jesus commandment a selective one? Accepting some and rejecting others? I do not want to spend too much time on you, because it is my honest opinion that you may not be a person who reflects. Sorry. Thats my opinion.

You have failed to establish that Jesus was a muslim. since I believe that was the underlying claim behind ur previous post.

Is this the quality of lies that springs out of the mosques, from ur scholars?
I must confess, only an ignorant, uneducated, nincompoop-ish, beclouded and unintelligent person would subscribe to these.

olabowale, I am disappointed.

Mark 12 verse 29; Jesus saying that there is a God that he and his listeners serve or aught to be serving.

Deutronomy 6 Verse 4: An old timer, I am going just say that he is a prophet from the time before Jesus saying that there is a God that he and his listeners serve or aught to be serving.

If by leap of faith, the Christian says that Jesus is God, then by the same amount of leap of faith the Old Testament people will have to say that their Old Testament prophet who made this statement first is also a God.

I guess everyone is a god in the Bible. All you have to do is say and or do something supernatural! But every prophet has some of those, specific to him. Moses pathed a sea and while he saved his people, he drowned his enemies by it!

I wonder why the Old Testament people didn't say Moses or any prophet, including the one that Jesus copied his Deutoronomy statement in Mark was not called God?

But copying is plagiarism, ain't it? Whats so special about a god that is not original that he had to copy another earlier god? Is that god deserving of any worship?

Now before somebody accuses me of using a reverse process to defend Islam at the demise of Christianity, I will simply ask these: Is Christianity not an organized religion, practised by humans, and propagated against intended demise of others, including Islam? If all the answers are simply yes, it should not be surprising that I am applying what Christianity is qualified by to expose its many faults.

Its book is corrupt, since it opposes itself in mant ways; within New Testament, you find verses going against one another. And within the Bible Testaments, the OT is opposing the NT. There is no congruency in it, if we consider Mark 12:29 and Deutoronomy 6:4, as our example. Same exact sentence, spoken by two different people at different times. Could their be inconsitencies, if there is honesty in thoughts? If the earlier speaker is not God, can the later speaker be God? No!

If he were God, his statement would have definitely changed to indicate that he is theGod that the earlier speaker was referring to! In the same form that Judaism was organized after a tribe is the same way Christianity was organized after an individual. Should it not be possible that the two are artificial, and not mandated on humans by God?

But it is interesting to note that Judah, the son of Jacob was actually son of Israel, and could not have been a Jew by religion. He must have practiced the same religion as his father, his grandfather, his great grandfather Ibrahim (AS). (And Ibrahim was not a Jew or a Christian).

Jesus must not have been a Christian! The label Christian came after him. He was observed to prostrate his face in prayer at the garden. Not one time, but many times in one single day; at least evening at night and very early in the morning. No body says that his prayer time coincided with todays Muslims'. But for sure he submitted his will demostrated by his many prayers, supplications "Not as I will but as you will", to his Creator!

If thats not Islam, it is definitely not Christianity and for sure not Judaism. I know about the Jews. Do you know?! Disappointed you shall remain.