[size=18pt]Evolutionary Creation
Denis O. Lamoureux
St. Joseph's College, University of Alberta
(Class Readings. CHRTC 350 Science & Religion)[/size]


Denis O. Lamoureux is an assistant professor of science and religion at St. Joseph's College in the University of Alberta.  His appointment is the first tenure-track position in Canada dedicated to teaching and research on the relationship between scientific discovery and Christian faith.

          Evolutionary creation claims the Father, Son and Holy Spirit created the universe and life through an evolutionary process. This position fully embraces both the religious beliefs of conservative Christianity and the scientific theories of cosmological, geological and biological evolution. It contends that God ordains and sustains the laws of nature, including the mechanisms of evolution. More specifically, evolution is 'teleological,' and features plan, purpose and promise. In particular, this view of origins asserts that humanity evolved from primate ancestors, and during this natural process the Image of God arose and sin entered the world. Evolutionary creationists experience God's presence and action in their lives. They contend that the Lord meets men and women in a personal relationship, which at times involves both dramatic and subtle miraculous signs and wonders.
          The term 'evolutionary creation' to most individuals seems like a contradiction in terms. This would be the case if the words 'evolution' and 'creation' were restricted to their popular meanings. That is, if the former is bound to an atheistic world view, and if the latter refers exclusively to literal 6 day creation. However, evolutionary creation moves beyond the common use of these terms and the simple 'evolution vs. creation' debate. The most important word in this category is the noun 'creation.' Evolutionary creationists are first and foremost thoroughly committed and unapologetic creationists. They believe that the universe is a created reality that is absolutely dependent for its every moment of existence on the will and grace of the Creator. The qualifying word in this term is the adjective 'evolutionary,' indicating the method through which God created the world. This view of origins is often referred to as 'theistic evolution.' However, that categorization places the process of evolution as primary term and makes the Creator secondary as only a qualifying adjective. Such an inversion in the order of priority is unacceptable to evolutionary creationists.
          Within Protestant evangelical circles, evolutionary creation is held by a small but growing number of individuals educated in both science and Scripture. In particular, a majority of these Christians trained in the biological sciences accept this position. The leading evangelical evolutionary creationist today is Howard Van Till. He spent most of his career at Calvin College, an institution considered to be the leading evangelical college in the United States supporting this view of origins. Van Till claims that God created the world 'fully-gifted' from its inception so that all the universe and life would evolve without subsequent Divine interventions. Evolutionary creation best describes the official position of the Roman Catholic Church, though it is often referred to in this tradition as 'theistic evolution.' In 1996 Pope John Paul II made international headlines by claiming that "new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis."
          In order to explain this view of origins to other conservative Christians, evolutionary creationists begin by pointing to the remarkable parallels between human development in womb and the evolution of the universe and life. They underline that God's hand in fashioning of each person individually is similar to His activity in creating every part of the world collectively. Four significant and instructive parallels include:
         • Human development and the evolution of the world are teleological natural processes ordained by God. At conception, the DNA in a fertilized human egg is fully equipped with the information for a human being to develop during a 9 month pregnancy. Similarly, the plan and capacity for the universe and life, including humanity, to evolve 10-15 billion years after the Big Bang was ordained and loaded into the fabric of the cosmos at its inception.
          • Divine action in the creation of an individual human and the entire world is through subtle providential activity. No Christian believes that while in their mother's womb the Lord descended out of heaven and dramatically intervened to attach a nose, set an eye, bore an ear canal, etc. Rather, everyone understands human development as a continuous natural process that God sustains throughout pregnancy. In the same way, evolutionary creationists assert that dramatic Divine interventions were not employed in the creation of the cosmos and life. Instead, evolution is an uninterrupted process that was sustained through time by the Creator.
          • Human development in the microcosm of the womb and the evolution in the macrocosm of the world provide natural revelations authored by the Creator. As the psalmist praises,
          For You created my inmost being;
          You knit me together in my mother's womb.
          I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
          Your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
                                                              Psalm 139:12-14
So too, evolutionary creationists view the evolution of the universe and life as a "knitting" process that results in a world that is "fearfully and wonderfully made." Indeed, the Big Bang "declares the Glory of God," and biological evolution "proclaims the work of His hands" (Ps 19:1).
          (4) Spiritual mysteries are associated with the developmental and evolutionary processes. Humans are distinguished from the rest of the creation because they bear the Image of God and they are sinful. Christians throughout the ages have debated where, when and how these spiritual realities are manifested in the individual. Yet Church history reveals that believers have not come to a consensus on these questions, indicating that these issues are beyond human understanding. In other words, these are mysteries. Similarly, evolutionary creationists believe that both the manifestation of God's Image and the entrance of sin during human evolution are also mysteries. Christian evolutionists firmly uphold these spiritual realities, but admit that understanding their origin fully is beyond our creaturely capacity to know.
          Evolutionary creationists are also quick to point out to fellow conservative Christians that their view of origins offers an expanded and more robust understanding of intelligent design in nature. This version of the design argument for God's existence appeals to more physical evidence than that proposed by young earth creation or progressive creation. At one level, evolutionary creation is in full agreement with these two anti-evolutionary positions in that there is a traditional intelligent design argument which points to the design evident in nature's current structures and operations. This classic approach argues that the incredible beauty and complexity in the organization and function of the creation presently before us reflects the mind of an Intelligent Being. For example, consider the most complex structure known-the human brain. This organ is an electrical circuitry marvel with trillions of synaptic connections, and incredibly most of it develops in the womb beginning from only one fertilized egg. The structure, function and embryological development of the brain offers a breath-taking level of elegant complexity which few deny reflects the work of an Intelligent Designer.

Continued at http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

Lecture: http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/lecture.html
Book by same author: http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Creation-Christian-Approach-Evolution/dp/1556355815/ref=reg_hu-wl_list-recs

His lecture: http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/lecture.html

why is this worth reading?

Take a goddamn look.

what did u gain from reading it?

I gained something valuable. . . .
Read it and grab yours.

Tudór:

I gained something valuable. . . .
Read it and grab yours.

whats that valuable thing u gained?

BUNCH OF CONFUSED FELLOWS!

That's what all 3 of you, poster and 2 responders above, are.

So, huxley now wants to think there is a creator.

I wonder why atheists are too concerned about how God created the world, when are they going to show us concrete proof of how someone else created the world?

We never claim to know everything about the origin of our world. But you jesus goons with certainty claim to know all because some desert drunkard called moses told you so. How sick is that?

Tudór:

We never claim to know everything about the origin of our world. But you jesus goons with certainty claim to know all because some desert drunkard called moses told you so. How sick is that?

you've run away from the other thread?

What is sick is that you deny that God created the world but cant tell us who created it either.

davidylan:

you've run away from the other thread?

What is sick is that you deny that God created the world but cant tell us who created it either.

So if he denies that God created it he has to show you who created it? why does it have to be created in the first instance?
Seriously let this evolution thingy go.

Chrisbenogor:

So if he denies that God created it he has to show you who created it? why does it have to be created in the first instance?
Seriously let this evolution thingy go.

I have never seen a coin with one side, if you have pls let me know.

to prove that one thing is wrong it must mean you are absolutely certain of what is right. you cant call creationism a myth when you have no credible alternative. The earth didnt drop from nowhere.

Evolution isnt going anywhere . . . i dont see you bawling that others shld let creationism go. It seems you folks are not comfortable when you are on the spot. Its easier to rush into genesis and come here posturing.

davidylan:

I have never seen a coin with one side, if you have pls let me know.

to prove that one thing is wrong it must mean you are absolutely certain of what is right. you cant call creationism a myth when you have no credible alternative. The earth didnt drop from nowhere.

Evolution isnt going anywhere . . . i dont see you bawling that others shld let creationism go. It seems you folks are not comfortable when you are on the spot. Its easier to rush into genesis and come here posturing.

That is a very vacous argument, you can prove an explanation wrong even when you do not have the certain answer.

x² -4x -2 = 0

The answers to the above equation can be tested if they are right without knowing what the real answer is no?

The logic is simple, plug the answer back into the question if we get a zero we know if we are right or wrong.

@davidylan
The above is arrant nonsense!
Why should one have an alternative to the god hypothesis to know its false?
Your problem is you see the world in 2 dimensions. . . . This or that, us or them, creation or evolution.

An alternative isn't needed to point out the petulence and stupidity of creation. If it makes no sense,then it makes no sense.
Your animalistic desire to believe something or somewhat is turning you into a slowpoke.

davidylan:

I have never seen a coin with one side, if you have pls let me know.

to prove that one thing is wrong it must mean you are absolutely certain of what is right. you cant call creationism a myth when you have no credible alternative. The earth didnt drop from nowhere.

Evolution isnt going anywhere . . . i dont see you bawling that others shld let creationism go. It seems you folks are not comfortable when you are on the spot. Its easier to rush into genesis and come here posturing.

What is this FOOL saying? I might not know what 278922819722215*872827125651819 is but I know it is not 5.

toneyb:

What is this FOOL saying? I might not know what 278922819722215*872827125651819 is but I know it is not 5.

You know it's not 5 because those two numbers are too large. There is a sensible reason why you know it's not 5. That argument isn't valid.

toneyb:

What is this FOOL saying? I might not know what 278922819722215*872827125651819 is but I know it is not 5.

This (answer is not 5) shows that u have the knowledge of mathematics. use that same knowledge of mathematics to find the right answer.

mactao:

You know it's not 5 because those two numbers are too large. There is a sensible reason why you know it's not 5. That argument isn't valid.

I am just trying to illustrate that I don't have to know what or how the universe came in to being to know that the creation myth in the bible is FALSE.

toneyb:

I am just trying to illustrate that I don't have to know what or how the universe came in to being to know that the creation myth in the bible is FALSE.

toneyb, but u honestly have not either produced an alternative or explain how exactly the bible account is false.

noetic2:

toneyb, but u honestly have not either produced an alternative or explain how exactly the bible account is false.

Gen2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
Gen 2:2    By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested  from all his work.
Gen 2:3    And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Gen 2:4     This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens[

According to your creation myth the bible god FINISHED creating the universe on the 6th day and rested. Science has shown that new stars are still constantly being created in the universe.

According to your creation myth the biblegod created the moon as a light producing thing just like the sun but science has shown that the moon is not light, it only reflects light from the sun as we view it here on earth just as the earth does when viewed from the moon. if the biblegod  made the moon to "rule the night" as the bible puts it, why does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky. There are other parts of the bible that talks about the "moon failing to give off its light". The moon can not fail to give off its light because It does not produce any light of its own as science has shown.

According to the creation myth god spends the second day creating this strange thing called the firmament which sperates the waters above from the waters below. This strange structure, which the biblegod calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.  In the bible, the firmament is a solid, dome-shaped structure in which the stars were placed. It separated the waters below from the waters above. Windows in the firmament were opened whenever it rained. Any body with that has a little knowledge of astronomy knows that this is all BULL.

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. The creation myth even says that the earth was created before the sun. . Any body that knows how our solar system functions KNOWS that the earth can not be created before the sun because the sun's electromagnetic force is what keeps our earth and other planets in our solar system in orbit. The creation myth does not even talk about the other planets because the goat herder that wrote it did not even know that there are other planets in our solar system.

What about amimals? All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, lions, tigers, snakes, canivoures birds etc all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by the biblegod.

This same story tells us it took the biblegod one day to create the billions and billions of galaxies, and more multiplied billions of suns in each galaxy. Yet, it took the same biblegod one whole day just to make our sun and moon. The writer of this creation myth thought that the stars were tiny objects that were just hanging in the sky that is why in other bible passages we have about god commanding the stars to fight along side his chosen men in battles against other people that worship other gods. The same goat herders thought that the stars are such tiny objects that hanged in the sky that was why they wrote that the stars will fall down from the sky on the day jesus will return to the earth.  .

They even have vissions of a goats horn reaching high up into the skies and pushing the stars in to the earth and stepping on the stars in the book of daniel. This goes to show you the thought process of the bible writers. Any body with an idea of what the stars really are will not have such "vissions". .

I don't know how the universe came about but the creation myth has been debunked by science. There is only one world, one universe that we live in, and what can be shown to be true by science, MUST ALSO, BE TRUE FOR RELIGION. Present day believers in the bible try to defend the bible by telling us, "The Bible is not a book of science." So the creation story is an allegory which is not supposed to be taken as a literal tale. . They have forgotten that the church and christians have killed so many people in the middle ages who questioned the creation myth back in the days.

toneyb:

According to your creation myth the bible god FINISHED creating the universe on the 6th day and rested. Science has shown that new stars are still constantly being created in the universe.

I have repeatedly told u that this no point.

That the bible is silent on the re-generation of the stars does not rule out the work of God. God rested on the seventh day after creating all animals and plants. didnt these animals reproduce? didnt new plants come forth from the ground?

God made the stars, their continuous re-creation is still the work of God, just like human reproduction.

According to your creation myth the biblegod created the moon as a light producing thing just like the sun but science has shown that the moon is not light, it only reflects light from the sun as we view it here on earth just as the earth does when viewed from the moon. if the biblegod  made the moon to "rule the night" as the bible puts it, why does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky. There are other parts of the bible that talks about the "moon failing to give off its light". The moon can not fail to give off its light because It does not produce any light As science has shown.

The sun gives the moon its light, as such the moon reflects the light it obtains from the sun, the moon is therefore a source of LIGHT.

Do u know the source of the light the sun gives? if eventually science finds out that the sun does not generate its own light but obtains it from somewhere else, does that stop the sun from being a medium of light? The moon just like the sun is the vessel through which we obtain light.

It is irrelevant how long the moon travels. The most important thing is that it is the source of the light we use at night.

2 facts u have failed to refute is that,

1. The sun and the moon are mediums by which we obtain light.
2. The sun rules by the day and the moon rules by night just like God decreed.

According to the creation myth god spends the second day creating this strange thing called the firmament which sperates the waters above from the waters below. This strange structure, which the biblegod calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.  In the bible, the firmament is a solid, dome-shaped structure in which the stars were placed. It separated the waters below from the waters above. Windows in the firmament were opened whenever it rained. Any body with that has a little knowledge of astronomy knows that this is all BULL.

once again, u have made no point.
what other explanation do u have for rain?

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes. The creation myth even says that the earth was created before the sun. . Any body that knows how our solar system functions KNOWS that the earth can not be created before the sun because the sun's electromagnetic force is what keeps our earth and other planets in our solar system in orbit. The creation myth does not even talk about the other planets because the goat herder that wrote it did not even know that there are other planets in our solar system.

I must confess that u have a limited knowledge of the bible. This is forgiveable because u are an atheist.

Here is what the bible says in Genesis 2:
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
      When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-

Genesis 1 is God's view of creation. He dwells in the spirit and has made all things perfect in 7 days. Genesis 2 is man's view of creation.
From the verses above we can both see that plants did not grow until photosynthesis took place.

What about amimals? All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, lions, tigers, snakes, canivoures birds etc all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by the biblegod.

This is a mere assumption, which u have failed to substantiate.
The animals did feed according to their natural instincts, however the bible did not lay emphasis on their feeding mode. There is also no reason to believe otherwise.

This same story tells us it took the biblegod one day to create the billions and billions of galaxies, and more multiplied billions of suns in each galaxy. Yet, it took the same biblegod one whole day just to make our sun and moon. The writer of this creation myth thought that the stars were tiny objects that were just hanging in the sky that is why in other bible passages we have about god commanding the stars to fight along side his chosen men in battles against other people that worship other gods. The same goat herders thought that the stars are such tiny objects that hanged in the sky that was why they wrote that the stars will fall down from the sky on the day jesus will return to the earth.  .

Again u are wrong. As far as God was concerned, the stars have been made, just like animals, plants and man.
You are yet to refute the fact that God indeed created billions of stars in one day.

They even have vissions of a goats horn reaching high up into the skies and pushing the stars in to the earth and stepping on the stars in the book of daniel. This goes to show you the thought process of the bible writers. Any body with an idea of what the stars really are will not have such "vissions". .

How does this relate to the creation story?

[b]I don't know how the universe came about [/b]but the creation myth has been debunked by science.

Thank u for ur honesty. Nothing stops u from believing the bible.

The creation myth has not been refuted by science. Not only has there been no scientific refutation, there has also been no alternative.

There is only one world, one universe that we live in, and what can be shown to be true by science, MUST ALSO, BE TRUE FOR RELIGION. Present day believers in the bible try to defend the bible by telling us, "The Bible is not a book of science." So the creation story is an allegory which is not supposed to be taken as a literal tale. . They have forgotten that the church and christians have killed so many people in the middle ages who questioned the creation myth back in the days. 

Science has not established how the universe came into existence. Until then, I will stick to my bible.

noetic2:

I have repeatedly told u that this no point.

That the bible is silent on the re-generation of the stars does not rule out the work of God. God rested on the seventh day after creating all animals and plants. didnt these animals reproduce? didnt new plants come forth from the ground?

God made the stars, their continuous re-creation is still the work of God, just like human reproduction.

Is this one of your pathetic apologies?  Ok lets look into the bible and see what the writer said about plants and animals.

Gen1: 11  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen1:12And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed [is] in itself according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good

The writer here talks about the biblegod telling the plants to reproduce.

Gen 1:21So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

The bible god tells the animals to also reproduce according to their kind. Where is the bible gods injunction on the stars to continually reproduce ?

The sun gives the moon its light, as such the moon reflects the light it obtains from the sun, the moon is therefore a source of LIGHT.

Only that your bible says that god created two lights. The sun and the moon. The writer of the creation myth clearly thought that the moon produces its light that is why in another part of the bible it says that the moon will fail to give off its light. The moon can not fail to give off its light because it does not produce any light of its own.

Do u know the source of the light the sun gives? if eventually science finds out that the sun does not generate its own light but obtains it from somewhere else, does that stop the sun from being a medium of light? The moon just like the sun is the vessel through which we obtain light.

Are you kidding me? The sun produces its own light. Energy from the Sun, is responsible for the form of sunlight that we see here on earth. the sun procuces its own light. The bible does NOT talk about the moon bein a vessel with we obtain light, the bible talks about the moon producing its own light just like the sun. It say god made two lights. The moon is not light.

It is irrelevant how long the moon travels. The most important thing is that it is the source of the light we use at night.

. The moon was made to rule over the night according to the creation myth just as the sun was made to rule over the day. why does the moon spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

2 facts u have failed to refute is that,

1. The sun and the moon are mediums by which we obtain light.
2. The sun rules by the day and the moon rules by night just like God decreed.

Every body knows that the sun and the moon are mediums for which we obtain light. But your bible talks about god creating them both as light NOT as mediums but as light, the same bible also talks about The moon failing to GIVE OFF[b] ITS[/b] LIGHT. Which is in accordance with the creation account that the bible god created the moon as light just like the sun.

once again, u have made no point.
what other explanation do u have for rain?

I can't believe what I am reading.  . You believe that rain falls because the windows of this strange thing called the firmament opens according to the bible? Do you really believe that is the explanation for rain?  A scientific model known as the Bergeron process explains how rain forms and falls.

I must confess that u have a limited knowledge of the bible. This is forgiveable because u are an atheist.

Here is what the bible says in Genesis 2:
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
      When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-

I have more knowledge of the bible than you. The problem with apologetics is that you guys pick and chose ONLY what makes sense to you in the bible and throw the rest away. You quickly ran to genesis 2 for support for getting that genesis 1 says something else completely.

Gen1: 11  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen1:12And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed [is] in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1: 13 So the evening and the morning[b] were the third day[/b].

In genesis one it talks about god creating the plants on the 3rd day before creating the sun on the 4th day. But in genesis two it talks about god creating the plants after creating the universe and resting. Even the writers of genesis do not even agree as to when exactly the biblegod created plants. The creation myth even says that the earth was created before the sun. Grin. Any body that knows how our solar system functions KNOWS that the earth can not be created before the sun because the sun's electromagnetic force is what keeps our earth and other planets in our solar system in orbit.

Genesis 1 is God's view of creation. He dwells in the spirit and has made all things perfect in 7 days. Genesis 2 is man's view of creation.
From the verses above we can both see that plants did not grow until photosynthesis took place.

Who told you this? Where is it written in the bible that genesis 1 is the bible god's view of creation and genesis 2 man's view of creation?  .Genesis 1 talks about the plants growing.  "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so"

This is a mere assumption, which u have failed to substantiate.
The animals did feed according to their natural instincts, however the bible did not lay emphasis on their feeding mode. There is also no reason to believe otherwise.

Are you kidding me? Did the bible not say that the bible god created everything to be perfect before adam and eve were decieved to eat from the tree? Death was not yet introduced into the world according to the narrative so there was no need for animals to kill each other because there was no death and god gave all the animals green plants for food.

Gen 1:30  And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground everything that has the breath of life in it I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

There it is for you. The bible god said he ONLY provided plants as food for all the animals in the world. Tigers, lions, vampire birds, mosquitoes. Etc. All had to feed on plants. 

Again u are wrong. As far as God was concerned, the stars have been made, just like animals, plants and man.
You are yet to refute the fact that God indeed created billions of stars in one day.

What is there to refute in the tales of goat herders who said that the stars will fall from the sky on the day jesus will return into the earth. Do you think they had an idea what the stars really were? They sure didn't know that stars are suns of other solar systems. They just thought that stars were these tiny things that were hanging in the sky that is why they wrote that stars in the sky were able to fight along side the chosen men of yahweh when he ordered them to kill off all the unbelievers.

How does this relate to the creation story?

It just gives you and idea of what they thought the stars were. They had visions where a star fell into the earth and was skepped upon.

Thank u for ur honesty. Nothing stops u from believing the bible.

The creation myth has not been refuted by science. Not only has there been no scientific refutation, there has also been no alternative.

Of course what do I expect to hear from a person that believe that rain falls when the windows of the firmament are opend.  .

Science has not established how the universe came into existence. Until then, I will stick to my bible.

. The big bang theory is the scientific explanation  of how the universe came into being. Do you believe in the bible because it is the word of your god which contains the ultimate truth as to how the universe came about or do you believe in the bible because science is yet to finish providing all the answers to the origin of the universe?

toneyb:

Is this one of your pathetic apologies?  Ok lets look into the bible and see what the writer said about plants and animals.

The writer here talks about the biblegod telling the plants to reproduce.

The bible god tells the animals to also reproduce according to their kind. Where is the bible gods injunction on the stars to continually reproduce ?

I believe I answered this question in my last post.

Only that your bible says that god created two lights. The sun and the moon. The writer of the creation myth clearly thought that the moon produces its light that is why in another part of the bible it says that the moon will fail to give off its light. The moon can not fail to give off its light because it does not produce any light of its own.

Now this is RIDICULOUS.

did u write the bible? so what do u mean by clearly thought?

The moon WILL DEFINITELY FAIL to give its light like the bible states. Since it has been scientifically established that the moon derives its light from the sun, one can easily see how the moon will FAIL to produce light. why is that so hard to assimilate?

Are you kidding me? The sun produces its own light. Energy from the Sun, is responsible for the form of sunlight that we see here on earth. the sun procuces its own light.

Where did u deduce the RUBBISH from my last post.

The bible does NOT talk about the moon bein a vessel with we obtain light, the bible talks about the moon producing its own light just like the sun. It say god made two lights. The moon is not light.

This is completely FALSE.

A light was created in verse 3. Another set of Lights was created in verse 14. The verse 14 lights determine time and season.
The sun and the moon were not made until verse 16. And they were made to govern the day and night. Prior to being made there was day and night already, which was determined by the lights in verse 14.

This simply buttresses my initial statement that the moon is a light vessel. You have not stated anything that refutes ANY biblical claim.
The least u can do is to read the bible.

. The moon was made to rule over the night according to the creation myth just as the sun was made to rule over the day. why does the moon spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

Not even a primary school child should say this. Does the moon not rule over the night?

Every body knows that the sun and the moon are mediums for which we obtain light. But your bible talks about god creating them both as light NOT as mediums but as light, the same bible also talks about The moon failing to GIVE OFF[b] ITS[/b] LIGHT. Which is in accordance with the creation account that the bible god created the moon as light just like the sun.

This is a raw display of IGNORANCE. I cant keep repeating myself.

whats the difference between the light is verse 3, the light in verse 14 and the lights in 16?

You are not allowed to EVADE this question, I demand answers since u claim to know so much about the bible.

I can't believe what I am reading.  . You believe that rain falls because the windows of this strange thing called the firmament opens according to the bible? Do you really believe that is the explanation for rain?  A scientific model known as the Bergeron process explains how rain forms and falls.

Good u mentioned the bergeron process. why is it difficult to common sensically deduce that the cloud where this process formulates is the biblical reference point to a firmament?

I have more knowledge of the bible than you. The problem with apologetics is that you guys pick and chose ONLY what makes sense to you in the bible and throw the rest away. You quickly ran to genesis 2 for support for getting that genesis 1 says something else completely.

The biblical knowledge u have displayed so far has been astonishing. 

In genesis one it talks about god creating the plants on the 3rd day before creating the sun on the 4th day. But in genesis two it talks about god creating the plants after creating the universe and resting. Even the writers of genesis do not even agree as to when exactly the biblegod created plants. The creation myth even says that the earth was created before the sun. Grin. Any body that knows how our solar system functions KNOWS that the earth can not be created before the sun because the sun's electromagnetic force is what keeps our earth and other planets in our solar system in orbit.

I believe I answered this question in my previous post.

Who told you this? Where is it written in the bible that genesis 1 is the bible god's view of creation and genesis 2 man's view of creation?  .

I am surprised u asked, since u have a very GREAT knowledge of the bible. Common sense and literal knowledge should tell any DUMB reader that genesis 1 is an account of the creation from God's view and genesis 2 from human view.

Genesis 1 talks about the plants growing.  "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so"

I believe I have already answered this question in my last post.

Are you kidding me? Did the bible not say that the bible god created everything to be perfect before adam and eve were decieved to eat from the tree? Death was not yet introduced into the world according to the narrative so there was no need for animals to kill each other because there was no death and god gave all the animals green plants for food.

This would be the fifth time I would be asking u to define PERFECTION. There is NOTHING in the bible or in historical records to suggest that the animals lived as vegetarians or lived otherwise before the fall of Adam. So I honestly dont see any point here.

There it is for you. The bible god said he ONLY provided plants as food for all the animals in the world. Tigers, lions, vampire birds, mosquitoes. Etc. All had to feed on plants. 

This is RIDICULOUS.

Are u educated at all? who was God talking to in that verse? the animals or Adam? I cant believe this 

What is there to refute in the tales of goat herders who said that the stars will fall from the sky on the day jesus will return into the earth. Do you think they had an idea what the stars really were? They sure didn't know that stars are suns of other solar systems. They just thought that stars were these tiny things that were hanging in the sky that is why they wrote that stars in the sky were able to fight along side the chosen men of yahweh when he ordered them to kill off all the unbelievers.

IRRELEVANT.

I have already addressed this.

It just gives you and idea of what they thought the stars were. They had visions where a star fell into the earth and was skepped upon.

Of course what do I expect to hear from a person that believe that rain falls when the windows of the firmament are opend.  .

. The big bang theory is the scientific explanation  of how the universe came into being. Do you believe in the bible because it is the word of your god which contains the ultimate truth as to how the universe came about or do you believe in the bible because science is yet to finish providing all the answers to the origin of the universe?

Now this is called SELF DECEPTION. In one breadth u claim not to know the source of life, and now u are screaming evolution.

How many times has evolution been discredited and ridiculed on this forum?

Evolution has never been completely dismissed by you or anyone else. It has only been shown not to have all the answers.

Tudór:

Evolution has never been completely dismissed by you or anyone else. It has only been shown not to have all the answers.

It has been shown to have NO answer at all.

Noetic you know that is a lie.

noetic2:


Now this is RIDICULOUS.

did u write the bible? so what do u mean by clearly thought?

The moon WILL DEFINITELY FAIL to give its light like the bible states. Since it has been scientifically established that the moon derives its light from the sun, one can easily see how the[b] moon will FAIL to produce light[/b]. why is that so hard to assimilate?

When has the moon ever produced its light?

Where did u deduce the RUBBISH from my last post.

Didn't you just imply that it could later be shown by science that the sun does not produce its own light?

This is completely FALSE.

A light was created in verse 3. Another set of Lights was created in verse 14. The verse 14 lights determine time and season.
The sun and the moon were not made until verse 16. And they were made to govern the day and night. Prior to being made there was day and night already, which was determined by the lights in verse 14.

This simply buttresses my initial statement that the moon is a light vessel. You have not stated anything that refutes ANY biblical claim.
The least u can do is to read the bible.

Did you not say on another thread that the biblegod created some kind of light that can not be understood by the "human organs"? .

Not even a primary school child should say this. Does the moon not rule over the night?

How? With or with out the moon nothing will change at night, take away the sunlight for a year and there will be little light left on earth, take away the moon light with it reflects from the sun for 10 years and it will not affect any part of the develpoed world, Light bulbs rule the night more than the moon will ever do. So how does the moon rule the night? The moon use to rule the night back when there was no electricity, light bulbs are what rule the night now.

Good u mentioned the bergeron process. why is it difficult to common sensically deduce that the cloud where this process formulates is the biblical reference point to a firmament?

Where is this firmament? The scientist are yet to see it, do the windows of the clouds open when it rains? . Scientist have seen the sun, moon, stars and have studied it in great details, where is the firmament that houses the heavens and the stars? The same firmament that seperates the waters below from the waters above, the same firmament whose windows open when ever it rains. Where is it? By the way the bible refers to the clouds as a different entity from the firmament.

The biblical knowledge u have displayed so far has been astonishing. 

What bible knowledge have you displayed other than saying things that the bible does not even say.

I[b] believe[/b] I answered this question in my previous post.

I am sorry you did not even say anything that makes any sense.

I am surprised u asked, since u have a very GREAT knowledge of the bible. Common sense and literal knowledge should tell any DUMB reader that genesis 1 is an account of the creation from God's view and genesis 2 from human view.

Are you know relying on your "common sense" to tell you what is written? . Can you show me where the bible says that genesis 1 is the biblegod's account and genesis 2 man's account. i don't want your common sense because you have non as far as I know. Just show me where it is written in the bible. You did not write the bible and nothing in the bible says anything like that. If there is then show me.

I believe I have already answered this question in my last post.

What was the earth orbiting before the sun and other planets were created? yahweh's head? .

This would be the fifth time I would be asking u to define PERFECTION. There is NOTHING in the bible or in historical records to suggest that the animals lived as vegetarians [/b]or lived otherwise before the fall of Adam. So I honestly dont see any point here.

Again you are lying here.

Gen 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground everything that has the breath of life in it I give every [b]green plant for food." And it was so .

This is RIDICULOUS.

Are u educated at all? who was God talking to in that verse? the animals or Adam? I cant believe this 

What is this? Don't you guys go around saying that the biblegod spoke everything into existence? Who was the biblegod talking to when he said "let the earth bring for plants"? Was he speaking to the earth, the plants, the mythical adam or you? . Did you attend any school? Who was the bible god talking to when he said "let there be light"? Was he talking to you? .

IRRELEVANT.

I have already addressed this.

How have you "addressed this"? You are yet to tell me how the stars will fall into the earth on the day jesus will come or how stars can fight along side humans. Are you not the one mocking the muslims for believing that their prophet was able to divide the moon into two? How is that absurd tale different from you own bible absurd tale of stars fighting along side humans in a war?

Now this is called SELF DECEPTION. In one breadth u claim not to know the source of life, and now u are screaming evolution.

When did i talk about evolution? What is it about evolution that scares you guys so much? I said the scientific explanation for the origin of the universe is the big bang. It is flawed but that is the scientific explanation for now.

How many times has evolution been discredited and ridiculed on this forum?

Discredited by who? Or self acclaimed "scientist" that doesn't even know who to write a scientific paper or who? . Do you want to win a Nobel peace prize and become famous? The discovery institute have been looking for scientist that will discredit the theory of evolution for decades but have yet to find one. You can do them a lot of good. You will become a Nobel laureate and become and instant celebrity if only you take up the challenge and disprove evolution. Let me know when you have written your scientific paper that disproves or discredits the theory of evolution to the NAS.

:-x

Moderator why did you delete my post?

author=noetic2 link=topic=290950.msg4121448#msg4121448 date=1246500440

Now this is RIDICULOUS.

did u write the bible? so what do u mean by clearly thought?

The moon WILL DEFINITELY FAIL to give its light like the bible states. Since it has been scientifically established that the moon derives its light from the sun, one can easily see how the moon will FAIL to produce light. why is that so hard to assimilate?

When has the moon ever produced its light?

Where did u deduce the RUBBISH from my last post.

Didn't you just imply that it could later be shown by science that the sun does not produce its own light?

This is completely FALSE.

A light was created in verse 3. Another set of Lights was created in verse 14. The verse 14 lights determine time and season.
The sun and the moon were not made until verse 16. And they were made to govern the day and night. Prior to being made there was day and night already, which was determined by the lights in verse 14.

This simply buttresses my initial statement that the moon is a light vessel. You have not stated anything that refutes ANY biblical claim.
The least u can do is to read the bible.

Did you not say on another thread that the biblegod created some kind of light that can not be understood by the "human organs"?

Not even a primary school child should say this. Does the moon not rule over the night?

How? With or with out the moon light nothing will change at night, take away the sunlight for a year and there will be little light left on earth, take away the moon light with it reflects from the sun for 10 years and it will not affect any part of the develpoed world, Light bulbs rule the night more than the moon will ever do. So how does the moon rule the night? The moon use to rule or proive some form of light back in the days not any more except in places where there is no electricity. light bulbs are what rule the night now.

Good u mentioned the bergeron process. why is it difficult to common sensically deduce that the cloud where this process formulates is the biblical reference point to a firmament?

What is this firmament? The scientist are yet to see how it seperates the waters above from the waters below as the bible says it does, do the windows of the clouds open when it rains? Huh Huh. Scientist have seen the sun, moon, stars and have studied it in great details, where is the firmament that houses the heavens and the stars? The same firmament that seperates the waters below from the waters above, the same firmament whose windows open when ever it rains. Where is it? By the way the bible refers to the clouds as a different entity from the firmament.

The biblical knowledge u have displayed so far has been astonishing. 

What bible knowledge have you displayed other than saying things that the bible does not even say.

I believe I answered this question in my previous post.

I am sorry you did not even say anything that made any sense.

I am surprised u asked, since u have a very GREAT knowledge of the bible. Common sense and literal knowledge should tell any DUMB reader that genesis 1 is an account of the creation from God's view and genesis 2 from human view.

Are you know relying on your "common sense" to tell you what is written? . Can you show me where the bible says that genesis 1 is the biblegod's account and genesis 2 man's account. i don't want your common sense because you have non as far as I know. Just show me where it is written in the bible. You did not write the bible and nothing in the bible says anything like that. If there is then show me.

I believe I have already answered this question in my last post.

What was the earth orbiting before the sun and other planets were created? yahweh's head?

This would be the fifth time I would be asking u to define PERFECTION. There is NOTHING in the bible or in historical records to suggest that the animals lived as vegetarians or lived otherwise before the fall of Adam. So I honestly dont see any point here.

Again you are lying here.

Gen 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground everything that has the breath of life in it I give every green plant for food." And it was so .

According to the tale death had not yet come into the world, so what were the lions feeding on since death had not yet come into the world? yahweh's fingers?

This is RIDICULOUS.

Are u educated at all? who was God talking to in that verse? the animals or Adam? I cant believe this 

What is this? Don't you guys go around saying that the biblegod spoke everything into existence? Who was the biblegod talking to when he said "let the earth bring for plants"? Was he speaking to the earth, the plants, the mythical adam or you? . Did you attend any school? Who was the bible god talking to when he said "let there be light"? Was he talking to you?

IRRELEVANT.

I have already addressed this.

How have you "addressed this"? You are yet to tell me how the stars will fall into the earth on the day jesus will come or how stars can fight along side humans. Are you not the one mocking the muslims for believing that their prophet was able to divide the moon into two? How is that absurd tale different from you own bible absurd tale of stars fighting along side humans in a war?

Now this is called SELF DECEPTION. In one breadth u claim not to know the source of life, and now u are screaming evolution.

When did i talk about evolution? What is it about evolution that scares you guys so much? I said the scientific explanation for the origin of the universe is the big bang. It is flawed but that is the scientific explanation for now.

How many times has evolution been discredited and ridiculed on this forum?

Discredited by who? Or self acclaimed "scientist" that doesn't even know who to write a scientific paper or who? . Do you want to win a Nobel peace prize and become famous? The discovery institute have been looking for scientist that will discredit the theory of evolution for decades but have yet to find one. You can do them a lot of good. You will become a Nobel laureate and become and instant celebrity if only you take up the challenge and disprove evolution. Let me know when you have written your scientific paper that disproves or discredits the theory of evolution to the NAS.

Tudór:

Noetic you know that is a lie.

Tudor u know this is true.