Maybe this topic is long overdue, it has become a normal thing for us to see debates on this section end up in ways that benefit nobody, its either a stand off between atheists and Christians, or between Muslims and Christians, in the end we really learn nothing from these debates.
One major source of the problems is the prove it concept, I can hardly put it better than Krayola2

Krayola2:
First of all I want you to think of this date –  November 18 1996, and recall everything that you did that day. And then imagine having to prove that what u are thinking of is exactly what u did on that date. I think most of us will agree that u probably can't prove it. Even though u might have some idea of what u did that day, u might even have a diary, but to prove to someone else that ur recollection of everything u did is 100% accurate is impossible.

We also need to realize that theories, or ideas, do not have to be either right or wrong, but that there are degrees of rightness, and degrees of wrongness. For example, can we prove that cigarrettes cause cancer? No. Do we have enough evidence to believe that cigarrettes probably cause cancer? Yes. Should we dismiss all the evidence that shows that cigarettes can cause cancer because it can't be proven? I think not. There used to be very good arguments that smoking does not cause cancer, there still are. The thing is, having a good argument does not make u correct. At the end of the day u have to look at the evidence critically, do the hard work of studying it and understanding it, and then make honest assessments. U study the trend of lung cancer, and see that an overwhelming number of smokers get cancer, and combine that with other scientific knowledge, etc, evaluate everything, and then you can make an informed decision on what to believe.


The thing I noticed with the debates on this forum, is that people want every thing to be proven. That is impossible. The smartest people in the world can't do it, I doubt we are going to do it here. Unless our objective when we sign in to this forum is to come and shout insults at each other all day, we have to get over this “prove this, prove that” mindset. It is a bridge to nowhere. Neither side is 100% right, and neither side is 100% wrong; That I can bet my life on. Some (don't want to generalize so i'm not saying all, but almost all, myself included)  atheists here are wrong about a lot of stuff IMHO, and the religious people are too. We are also both right about a lot of stuff. The task before us is how do we sort thru all our sometimes unfounded presuppositions and biases, and engage in real debate and exchange of ideas; so that when we come to the forum we can actually leave with something; if only just an argument we disagree with, at least it is an argument we have learned.

Is it in anyway possible to come up with a general method with which these debates can be handled, over to you guys  the floor is open.

I think we have to be careful what we say in debates.

When we say stuff like "God doesn't exist". . .that is a strong claim. . We don't know that. that right there kills a a debate right before it starts. Some of us might think that, but for the sake of debating we need to stop saying stuff like that. Just my opinion. 

If we want Christians to listen to us and take us seriously, we have to stop talkin down on them, and their religion. I have never met anyone that stopped being religious because someone else called him silly or deluded. A lot of my professors are very religious. They don't believe in the superstitious/mythical stuff, but they are devout christians. So this idea that religion is for ignorant people is very very misguided.

I have never met anyone that stopped being religious because someone else called him silly or deluded

word

Krayola2:

I think we have to be careful what we say in debates.

When we say stuff like "God doesn't exist". . .that is a strong claim. . We don't know that. that right there kills a a debate right before it starts. Some of us might think that, but for the sake of debating we need to stop saying stuff like that. Just my opinion. 

If we want Christians to listen to us and take us seriously, we have to stop talkin down on them, and their religion. I have never met anyone that stopped being religious because someone else called him silly or deluded. A lot of my professors are very religious. They don't believe in the superstitious/mythical stuff, but they are devout christians. So this idea that religion is for ignorant people is very very misguided.

  I'm voting this the post of the week on NL. I'll also add that we christians are also guilty of similar crimes.

Chrisbenogor:

Maybe this topic is long overdue, it has become a normal thing for us to see debates on this section end up in ways that benefit nobody, its either a stand off between atheists and Christians, or between Muslims and Christians, in the end we really learn nothing from these debates.
One major source of the problems is the prove it concept, I can hardly put it better than Krayola2

Is it in anyway possible to come up with a general method with which these debates can be handled, over to you guys  the floor is open.

  Infact I've popped in in the middle of several threads where a vicious debate is ongoing and said the exact same thing. Inspite of what we all believe, none of us can prove it in the literal, scientific sense so why bother trading accusations and demanding proofs?
   I don't expect the cycle to change. Unless the participants themselves are willing to change - something I wouldn't hold my breath for based on what I've seen so far. This section is full of passionate people - a good thing. It is also full of all too often, unreasonable people on both sides.

Krayola2:

I think we have to be careful what we say in debates.

When we say stuff like "God doesn't exist". . .that is a strong claim. . We don't know that. that right there kills a a debate right before it starts. Some of us might think that, but for the sake of debating we need to stop saying stuff like that. Just my opinion. 

If we want Christians to listen to us and take us seriously, we have to stop talkin down on them, and their religion. I have never met anyone that stopped being religious because someone else called him silly or deluded. A lot of my professors are very religious. They don't believe in the superstitious/mythical stuff, but they are devout christians. So this idea that religion is for ignorant people is very very misguided.

You are right its a strong claim, but the attitude of most christians on the forum can make it almost impossible to have a good debate with them. The way they see it, its an all out war, and it is especially not rewarding when you go through the rigors of explaining something and all you get in return is you make no point.
Let me use this to also address the atheists, I totally agree that calling someone deluded will not make a person see any sense in what you are saying. I stopped analysing biblical passages with Christians because it really did not make any sense, instead issues that pertain to our daily lives should be discussed. Just my two cents anyway because I know the practical is very difficult to attain, if someone is out to frustrate Richard Dawkins on this forum they would, it don't matter how much you think you know. In a nut shell lets always find common ground.

JeSoul:

  I'm voting this the post of the week on NL. I'll also add that we christians are also guilty of similar crimes.

  Infact I've popped in in the middle of several threads where a vicious debate is ongoing and said the exact same thing. Inspite of what we all believe, none of us can prove it in the literal, scientific sense so why bother trading accusations and demanding proofs?
   I don't expect the cycle to change. Unless the participants themselves are willing to change - something I wouldn't hold my breath for based on what I've seen so far. This section is full of passionate people - a good thing. It is also full of all too often, unreasonable people on both sides.

Now there she is the only Christian on nairaland that makes me like Christianity, how body?
Wetin you think for this matter, abi make we form panel to come out with report for every thread?

The truth is nobody is really here to convert anybody rather we're all here to debate the right and wrongs of religion. Nobody ever converts as a result of an argument.

Tudór:

The truth is nobody is really here to convert anybody rather we're all here to debate the right and wrongs of religion. Nobody ever converts as a result of an argument.

Again you are spot on tudor, there are people on one side and then there are people on the other side, there is also the people in between, the people who are not so sure it is right for someone to question their beliefs. I was there before, I read and read and read before I even joined to give my opinions on the forum, so even though noetic is being noetic you should realise that other people would read it too and what they will see are two arrogant people if you loose your cool.
I know the practical of this talk is very difficult but do you not think we should try?

Tudór:

The truth is nobody is really here to convert anybody rather we're all here to debate the right and wrongs of religion. Nobody ever converts as a result of an argument.

True talk.  I would take it further and say that when people present arguments here (and elsewhere) it is not necessarily to convince or persuade the other person.  Rather the motivation might be quite ulterior, coming from, for example, a hatred of the other's religion, which in turn might not have anything to do with the religion but rather with the fact that a priest or imam of that religion sexually abused you as a child.  
Okay, I let my imagination run there, but the point that I'm trying to make is that human behaviour has complex motives that are not often ostensible, or even conscious to the person that is behaving in that way.

Tudór:

The truth is nobody is really here to convert anybody rather we're all here to debate the right and wrongs of religion. Nobody ever converts as a result of an argument.

I agree with u. But isn't the point of a debate to better understand something. Isn't is supposed to be about trying to understand and learn. Is it just for the hell of it? there must, imo, be something beneficial that we expect as  result.

Krayola2:

I agree with u. But isn't the point of a debate to better understand something. Isn't is supposed to be about trying to understand and learn. Is it just for the hell of it? there must, imo, be something beneficial that we expect as  result.

Could it be that the result sometimes is just to ridicule people? I mean how can one debate with abuzola?

@pastor
How body? Did you see that religious game thread I put your name there oh lol

Chrisbenogor:

Could it be that the result sometimes is just to ridicule people? I mean how can one debate with abuzola?

We need to learn that this is the internet and no one can stop others from posting. So if we find a post unreasonable or offensive, ignoring it may be the best option. Why start a debate with someone who isn't even goin to give ur arguments a fair hearing (oh, the irony  )

Krayola2:

I agree with u. But isn't the point of a debate to better understand something. Isn't is supposed to be about trying to understand and learn. Is it just for the hell of it? there must, imo, be something beneficial that we expect as  result.

I think you're right. But with these kind of debates people come with a rigid prejudice, NOTHING you say can sway them. It's mainly the neutrals and on lookers that benefit from the debates, they get to know more about both sides and make their decision on which side to belong.

Chrisbenogor:

Again you are spot on tudor, there are people on one side and then there are people on the other side, there is also the people in between, the people who are not so sure it is right for someone to question their beliefs. I was there before, I read and read and read before I even joined to give my opinions on the forum, [b]so even though noetic is being noetic [/b]you should realise that other people would read it too and what they will see are two arrogant people if you loose your cool.
I know the practical of this talk is very difficult but do you not think we should try?

what has noetic got to do with this?

Chrisbenogor:


@pastor
How body? Did you see that religious game thread I put your name there oh lol

Indeed I did. And have you noticed that on this thread there has been no mention of mysticism or traditional religions and I have contributed.

I bet you don't notice that I am more likely to contribute to a thread (seriously, without jesting) if you are involved or if Krayola is involved, or a couple of other people. I don't really enjoy giving myself headache which is inevitable with other people.

Pastor AIO:

Indeed I did. And have you noticed that on this thread there has been no mention of mysticism or traditional religions and I have contributed.

I bet you don't notice that I am more likely to contribute to a thread (seriously, without jesting) if you are involved or if Krayola is involved, or a couple of other people. I don't really enjoy giving myself headache which is inevitable with other people.

Why are religious people not like you and Jesoul


Oya if you were God what will you do tell us in that thread.

Chrisbenogor:

Wetin you think for this matter, abi make we form panel to come out with report for every thread?

Make I submit my application: I read pretty much every hotly debated thread in the religion section. A "report/review" thread would be loads of fun! We have something like that in the movie section.

Pastor AIO:

I bet you don't notice that I am more likely to contribute to a thread (seriously, without jesting) if you are involved or if Krayola is involved, or a couple of other people. I don't really enjoy giving myself headache which is inevitable with other people.

True for me too. Honest debaters are around . . . riffraffs like Abuzola unfortunately drown them out.

JeSoul:

Make I submit my application: I read pretty much every hotly debated thread in the religion section. A "report/review" thread would be loads of fun! We have something like that in the movie section.

True for me too. Honest debaters are around . . . riffraffs like Abuzola unfortunately drown them out.

Ha, I totally agree we should have a review panel made up of active readers from all sects and beliefs, who else should I try to conscript? As for Simons role ( american idol ) David has got my vote!
Emmm that 20 movies are coming up oh, I am having serious problems, right now the dilema is between in Dog day Afternoon and the Devils Advocate

I have said so many times that religious debates ALWAYS end in stale mate. This is because as i had also explained religion plays a central role in our lives, it is the fortress within which we live, and anything that as much as attempt to rock that foundation will be vehemently resisted.

Now having said that, atheists cannot help matching Christians in their own game. They affect and disturb our lives, in the bus, in the streets, even in our homes, they will not allow you to sleep. They are the ones that feels it is their religious obligation to convert every other person. No other religion is that aggressive ( in terms of conversion). Christians call others ( non believers) all sorts of Names, from sinner, to demon possessed, to anti christ, atheist return in kind by calling them deluded, ignorant and unintelligent. At least you do not find atheists and jews, hindus, buddhist, etc having a go at each other.

i believe in Live and Let Live. I had never tried to convert anybody to atheism, even my wife is a christian, and we get along fine as long as she does not see it as an obligation to convert me. I will not even attempt to convert my son. But if he asks questions, i will answer as best as i can and let him choose his own destiny. Whether he is a cele, born again or a Muslim, that will not diminish my love for him.

Chrisbenogor:

Ha, I totally agree we should have a review panel made up of active readers from all sects and beliefs, who else should I try to conscript? As for Simons role ( american idol ) David has got my vote!

  hehe, I think once we build it they will come  . David's blunt & direct approach here on NL is unrivaled, he will make for an excellent & comical judge 

Emmm that 20 movies are coming up oh, I am having serious problems, right now the dilema is between in Dog day Afternoon and the Devils Advocate

  No rush jare. It took me a couple days to compile mine. Haven't seen Dog day aft.  but Devil's Advocate    frightening movie.

this is the major problem . . . "debate" has a different definition on this section. It simply means a one-sided attack on the bible.

As far as i learnt in school, a REAL DEBATE is a two-way street . . . the atheist comes here with copy-paste poorly articulated "arguments" he got from someone else's website then proceeds to bombard the christian with insulting demands for "PROOF". Ask him to prove his own point of view and he starts complaining of a deadlock.

Ok. We are guilty of all charges.

Are u guilty of any?

wirinet:

Now having said that, atheists cannot help matching Christians in their own game. They affect and disturb our lives, in the bus, in the streets, even in our homes, they will not allow you to sleep. They are the ones that feels it is their religious obligation to convert every other person. No other religion is that aggressive ( in terms of conversion).

  Eya I apologize if christians in your community have taken an unfortunate route in their attempt to 'convert' you.

Permit me to stress that it is however a core mandate for us to go out and preach and yes convert (make disciples of all nations), and Jesus gave us an excellent example on how to go about doing this and many of us have strayed from that ideal way. I believe in preaching the gospel and moving on. Jesus didn't try to convince anyone - he spoke and it was up to them to believe him or not. I believe in the same approach, not turning to corner & intimidate & insult tactics and becoming overbearing to the point you leave the very people you're trying to win almost irreconcilably turned off.

wirinet:

I have said so many times that religious debates ALWAYS end in stale mate. This is because as i had also explained religion plays a central role in our lives, it is the fortress within which we live, and anything that as much as attempt to rock that foundation will be vehemently resisted.

Now having said that, atheists cannot help matching Christians in their own game. They affect and disturb our lives, in the bus, in the streets, even in our homes, they will not allow you to sleep. They are the ones that feels it is their religious obligation to convert every other person. No other religion is that aggressive ( in terms of conversion). Christians call others ( non believers) all sorts of Names, from sinner, to demon possessed, to anti christ, atheist return in kind by calling them deluded, ignorant and unintelligent. At least you do not find atheists and jews, hindus, buddhist, etc having a go at each other.

i believe in Live and Let Live. I had never tried to convert anybody to atheism, even my wife is a christian, and we get along fine as long as she does not see it as an obligation to convert me. I will not even attempt to convert my son. But if he asks questions, i will answer as best as i can and let him choose his own destiny. Whether he is a cele, born again or a Muslim, that will not diminish my love for him.

as far as I am concerned, on this religion forum the atheists are the most guilty of this. atheists namely mazaje, toneyb, bindex et all.
I for one learnt to take their game to them.

I believe that regardless of what anyone feels, those neutral who read the threads make sense out of what they read and forms an opinion of it.

davidylan:

this is the major problem . . . "debate" has a different definition on this section. It simply means a one-sided attack on the bible.

As far as i learnt in school, a REAL DEBATE is a two-way street . . . [b]the atheist comes here with copy-paste poorly articulated "arguments" [/b]he got from someone else's website then proceeds to bombard the christian with insulting demands for "PROOF". Ask him to prove his own point of view and he starts complaining of a deadlock.

I have repeatedly told the guilty atheists of the intellectual dishonesty and laziness involved in this mental malady.

davidylan:

this is the major problem . . . "debate" has a different definition on this section. It simply means a one-sided attack on the bible.

As far as i learnt in school, a REAL DEBATE is a two-way street . . . the atheist comes here with copy-paste poorly articulated "arguments" he got from someone else's website then proceeds to bombard the christian with insulting demands for "PROOF". Ask him to prove his own point of view and he starts complaining of a deadlock.

Would you be on our board of Judges ? We can all make the rules for what makes a good debate together no?

davidylan:

this is the major problem . . . "debate" has a different definition on this section. It simply means a one-sided attack on the bible.

As far as i learnt in school, a REAL DEBATE is a two-way street . . . the atheist comes here with copy-paste poorly articulated "arguments" he got from someone else's website then proceeds to bombard the christian with insulting demands for "PROOF". Ask him to prove his own point of view and he starts complaining of a deadlock.

it is always amusing to see davidylan describe his very actions on the Muslim threads in such clear and concise detail

davidylan:

this is the major problem . . . "debate" has a different definition on this section. It simply means a one-sided attack on the bible.

As far as i learnt in school, a REAL DEBATE is a two-way street . . . the atheist comes here with copy-paste poorly articulated "arguments" he got from someone else's website then proceeds to bombard the christian with insulting demands for "PROOF". Ask him to prove his own point of view and he starts complaining of a deadlock.

This fool continues to give himself credit he never deserves, no body is asking you to prove anything because you can not prove anything. . . . .you have confessed yourself that you believe relies only on faith and we know that faith(christian faith) says that you must believe even when the claims it presents make no sense at all. . . . . . .we are not here to ask you to prove anything but to show you that you have NO arguments at all, as long as you continue to use the bible and the deluded relationship you claim to have with the jewish carpenter as your reason to hate others then you should expect a push back.

No body is here to ask you to prove anything because you do NOT know anything. . . . we all know where to go when seeking proof, nobody in his right senses will ask a deluded and know nothing fool like you to prove anything to him. . . . .by the way we are not even here for any debates. . . .debates are about people that have arguments to present, you have no arguments to present at all. . . . . . . in fact you don't even know what you are saying at all. . . .you have said yourself that christianity and its assertions do not make sense and anybody that wants to follow it most do so through faith, so how do you expect any body to debate with you on a position you claim does not make sense to you, a position you know very little about and mostly accept it through faith? . . . . hopeless fool. . . . .