dayokanu:

That is a valid question most Gayyners would prefer to avoid, obviously the structure inside your club sucks with is not known to the hopeless fans cos I dont know which other teams get slated like Assanal by former players

Flamini, Hleb, Pires, Ade, Ljungberg, Lehmann and now Kolo

Ljunberg? He had to go - he was so past his best that his contract at W/Ham got canceled. Let him say what he wants, we were done with him with all due respect!

Hleb? The person who was praising AW a few days ago that he made the biggest mistake of his career by leaving Arsenal?

Pires? His case was clear - Wenger didn't want him anymore due to age and he felt he had more to offer. No beef with that.

Ade? MOFO extraordinaire - any player whose wage gets doubled twice in quick succession and still says the nonsense he does needs his head examined

Flamini? He left for money/Italian family connection - his current standing (a patching player) shows the wisdom of that move.

Lehmann? The mad German was past it and was always a caustic personality. . . life goes on!

In mentioning those cats, you didn't mention Kanu, Campbell, Lauren, Vieira, Henry, Gilberto and others who left the club on good terms and still speak glowingly of the side.

dayokanu:

Former Arsenal star Freddie Ljungberg last night revealed for the first time the bitterness behind his departure from the Gunners and his fall-out with Arsene Wenger

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1024009/Still-sore-departure-bitter-Ljungberg-lashes-Arsenal-Wenger.html#ixzz0N7l8j7UP

Our elders wisely informed us that success adds weight to the words of a man. A man should never kick against his benefactor unless he is able to control his own destiny. It is important to note that this interview was dated June 2008, shortly before West Ham dispatched with his services. If Freddie had known of the plot being hatched by Luigi Nani to tear up his contract, he wouldnt have been so hasty to castigate Arsene Wenger.  This closet Sodomite called Freddie Ljungberg must now be filled with compunction at the thought that he spoke too soon. As they say, pride goes before a fall.

@ debosky. . .i mostly agree with you, but Wenger isn't infallible. Letting Flamini go was a mistake IMO. . . He showed his worth in that season u almost won the league b4 eduardo got crippled. Fabregas and Flamini held ur midfield together.  The thing is, while wenger can bring up all these young talent, it is only a matter of time before other clubs come and start dangling money in their faces. No player is going to turn down big $$ because some old guy "developed" him. They go where the money is. It is no point taking chances with these youngsters only to let them go the moment they prove they have been worth the trouble.  (pay them what they're worth or lose them)

Arsenal is my favorite club in the EPL and it hurts to see those kids get pushed around by 2nd rate teams. You guys had a bunch of unfortunate injuries last season and the season was almost a disaster. Those kids just couldn't do it. Everyone is getting excited about pre-season games, but those aren't do or die. Everyone knows Arsenal can run circles around any team on a good day. The problem is when three points are at stake and the opponent is willing to actually fight, and shove, and kick for them. Kolo has a point. . .the guys that gave Arsenal that rough edge have left, and no replacements have come in that can fill that void.

Dayo should have watched the Emirates cup where gooners kept singing the Paddy song as if he was right there on the pitch.
Players say all sorts when they leave a club.
Looks foolish isolating only Arsenal!

Krayola2:

@ debosky. . .i mostly agree with you, but Wenger isn't infallible. Letting Flamini go was a mistake IMO. . . He showed his worth in that season u almost won the league b4 eduardo got crippled. Fabregas and Flamini held ur midfield together.  The thing is, while wenger can bring up all these young talent, it is only a matter of time before other clubs come and start dangling money in their faces. No player is going to turn down big $$ because some old guy "developed" him. They go where the money is. It is no point taking chances with these youngsters only to let them go the moment they prove they have been worth the trouble.  (pay them what they're worth or lose them)

Then we might as well sell everyone now because we will NOT be able to pay Man City wages or compete with Madrid wage-wise with their beneficial tax regime. That is the fact.

Some players will turn down big $$ and those are the real talents - Gerrard would've earned more at Chelski had he moved but he remained. Even Torres will make far more in Spain if he chooses to go there. Ade is not worth £150k so forgive me if I don't agree with your pay what they're worth creed.

Flamini was a 'mistake' but one of those you can't prevent. He was almost sold to B'ham the season before, so there's not much you can expect. He had a good final season but decided to walk off - again, the exact same way he came to Arsenal by walking off from Marseille so I am not surprised.

Arsenal is my favorite club in the EPL and it hurts to see those kids get pushed around by 2nd rate teams. You guys had a bunch of unfortunate injuries last season and the season was almost a disaster. Those kids just couldn't do it. Everyone is getting excited about pre-season games, but those aren't do or die. Everyone knows Arsenal can run circles around any team on a good day. The problem is when three points are at stake and the opponent is willing to actually fight, and shove, and kick for them. Kolo has a point. . .the guys that gave Arsenal that rough edge have left, and no replacements have come in that can fill that void.

Kolo spoke about 'leaders' not players with edge - I think those are two very distinct things.

debosky:

Clichy is still a young player and incidentally got into the PFA team of the season in 07/08. . . besides he's a LB I'm talking about CB gaffes here.

Yes, Clichy got into the PFA of 07/08 but we all know how Arsenal  fans moan and groan when his mistakes lead to a goal. Does that make him a bad player, NO!

LB, CB, DM, RB they are all expected to do their jobs which is to defend. clichy gaffes are on the LB and they also lead to goals.

debosky:

In those five years, point to one season Kolo has covered himself with glory and shown he is an exceptional individual in a bad team. Even in those 5 years, we've seen Sagna, Fabregas and even Adebayor showing quality performances. .  . we cannot really say the same about Kolo.

Then why did the coach still stick with him?

debosky:

Then he is going to fail at City, since he was taken there to be the arrow head as a 'premiership experienced world class defender', or so Hughes believes. The coach takes ultimate responsibility, but we can critique players on an individual basis too.

You cannot assume he will be a failure at Man City based on your assertion that he is brought in as an arrow head with experience. He might excel because he has the quality and experience that he lacked at Arsenal, and the club is ambitious and willing to do anything to see that they win something or atleast become rlevant in the scheme of things a la top 4 in the league.

Buying players is no guaranty of winning but it gives some sorta drive and confidence.

HNIC,

You would do well to tell me a club whose former playes slate as much as they do Arsenal I gave 5 examples from the top of my head.

coded guy:

Yes, Clichy got into the PFA of 07/08 but we all know how Arsenal  fans moan and groan when his mistakes lead to a goal. Does that make him a bad player, NO!

Where did I say Kolo is a bad player? I am simply saying Kolo was a significant deficiency in defence, especially in pressure situations. I did not want him to leave so he obviously has many good qualities.

LB, CB, DM, RB they are all expected to do their jobs which is to defend. clichy gaffes are on the LB and they also lead to goals.

No doubt, but it's VERY clear that most of our flaws are in CENTRAL defence. No one has said we need a new LB or RB, but better CBs!!

Then why did the coach still stick with him?

Previous quality, lack of ample replacements, loyalty, hope for improvement. . . .who knows? It is also clearly obvious that after 'trialling' him for six months since he asked to leave in January that Wenger believes he is past his best and hence should be sold.

You cannot assume he will be a failure at Man City based on your assertion that he is brought in as an arrow head with experience. He might excel because [b]he has the quality and experience that he lacked at Arsenal, [/b]and the club is ambitious and willing to do anything to see that they win something or atleast become rlevant in the scheme of things a la top 4 in the league.

Is that Kolo's quality or the quality of players around him? Is Dunne, Onuoha or Richards better than Gallas? What is the so called quality around him? Is Bridge better than Clichy or Sagna? Quality indeed - let them be ambitious and I wish him well, except against us.

Buying players is no guaranty of winning but it gives some sorta drive and confidence.

We have examples of that at the club and we are still in the business of buying players. People are so short sighted that they forget this same Wenger bought Ade & Walcott in one January, bought Diarra and Gallas on deadline day once and numerous other deals. This same Wenger is accused of not buying based on a SINGLE transfer window.  

Wenger will buy players when he deems fit, let Kolo worry about his game with City and leave us alone.

For the love of Gawd Debo. I dont believe you are the one making these statements about Kolo, but will exenorate TH14 by saying he didn't know how to be a good captain.

Kolo has left Arsenal and has said what prolly he would not have said while at Arsenal because of loyalty and respect. He is getting the flak for it from you.

Gallas is still at Arsenal, and when he spoke his mind everyone turned at him and his captaincy was even taken from him. I guess no player should speak their minds about Arsenal especially if its supposedly a negative comment regardless of if the player has left the club or not.

You guys should remember that they are also humans and might not say anything as long as they are at the club, but would be free to do so once they have left.

Toure has Left, all of a sudden he is crap and the major problem in your defense, What about your coach that has continually refused to strenghten the team with experienced players year in year out and they(the players) have continued to give their all only to eventually come out trophiless because of lack of depth in the squad.

Am still surprised you called Kolo CRAP. Not that he was an exception player, but i think he gave his best for the club called ARSENAL and should be allowed to bare his mind.

when you leave Arsenal and talk, you become a Judas
almost all the players leaving are Judases

If Debosky happened to be a player in Arsenal, i wonder what his departing remarks will be

" im so grateful to Arsene for making my stay here as barren as it could, more. . .more grease to ur elbow"

these gaynners need some medical attention!
Debosky is almost going mental with all these jagbajantis
i tire for the guy

Sharrap TK.

Kolo may still be playing for Asec Mimosa if we didn't rescue him so how can Kolo complain of being barren?

Gilberto, Vieira, Henry, Kanu, Lauren and other great ex-players are not complaining.

It is simply fashionable to bash Arsenal in the press so there's no issue there - we expect it but we will not tolerate falsehood.

debosky:

Sharrap TK.

Kolo may still be playing for Asec Mimosa if we didn't rescue him so how can Kolo complain of being barren?

Gilberto, Vieira, Henry, Kanu, Lauren and other great ex-players are not complaining.

It is simply fashionable to bash Arsenal in the press so there's no issue there - we expect it but we will not tolerate falsehood.

this group of players did not go five seasons without a league title while at arsenal. they had nothing to complain about unlike kolo toure.

Bertie went 4 seasons didn't he? He even encouraged players to sign for Arsenal.

Kolo is talking bollocks - that remains a fact.

debosky:

Sharrap TK.

Kolo may still be playing for Asec Mimosa if we didn't rescue him so how can Kolo complain of being barren?

Gilberto, Vieira, Henry, Kanu, Lauren and other great ex-players are not complaining.

It is simply fashionable to bash Arsenal in the press so there's no issue there - we expect it but we will not tolerate falsehood.

ok sir
i don hear you

Good boy!

debosky:

Then we might as well sell everyone now because we will NOT be able to pay Man City wages or compete with Madrid wage-wise with their beneficial tax regime. That is the fact.

 

relax. . .u don't have to draw ridiculous parallels to make ur point. Even Barca can't compete with Madrid and Man City's recent splurge. . My point was that u can't compete for honors with a bunch of underpaid kids. No one is denying the talent, but it takes more than that to bag trophies.

debosky:

Some players will turn down big $$ and those are the real talents - Gerrard would've earned more at Chelski had he moved but he remained. Even Torres will make far more in Spain if he chooses to go there. Ade is not worth £150k so forgive me if I don't agree with your pay what they're worth creed.

Gerrard is an exception to the rule, and u can't make that the standard. It's like asking Rooney to leave Man U for Chelsea, or Messi to leave Barca for Espanyol.  There are a few players that will turn down money. . .and those that do it do it because they already have it really good where they are. . .not because they don't care about the money. At some point a raise doesn't really mean much. . .but players that are not at that level yet run at the money. I don't blame Adebayor, or Flamini or any of those guys. All of us be boys and we know wetin dey . .Its all about the money. . .no one owes any club jack shit!!  I'm sure Torres gets paid really well, if not he'd be looking for a new club.

debosky:

Kolo spoke about 'leaders' not players with edge - I think those are two very distinct things.

aight. . .u`re right. . . But I was assuming he meant leaders that can take one for the team. . u know, push people around, get up in people's faces and make the team rally around him. kinda like Vieira used to do. Fabregas  is one of the ones left that I see with that kind of character (when he was injured the team looked like a joke).  .the rest mostly get pushed around. Think of characters like Vieira, Ashley Cole, and tell me guys like that wouldn`t make a world of difference. If Wenger was going to let those guys go, he should have thought, not just of talent, but getting players that bring those other qualities to the team.


Its nothing against Arsenal. . .I just think Wenger got some things wrong. I think he`s legendary but that does not make him flawless

I feel every one that has gunners blood in his/her system should thank Baba God Ade left Arsenal, did any one see the goaal he missed in mancity's shirt over the weekend? Senderous would convert that chance without stress, as for kolo, he has done his part, he should focus on his new team, gunners till the end of time, and to all the beef folks, notin do u,

Krayola2:

 rally around him. kinda like Vieira used to do. Fabregas  is one of the ones left that I see with that kind of character (when he was injured the team looked like a joke).  .the rest mostly get pushed around.

@Krayola2
Did u say, the team looked like a joke when Fab4 was injured
May I humbly let you know that we didn't lose a single match when Fab4 was injured!
Nasri ably deputised

Krayola2:

  Think of characters like Vieira, Ashley Cole, and tell me guys like that wouldn`t make a world of difference. If Wenger was going to let those guys go, he should have thought, not just of talent, but getting players that bring those other qualities to the team.

Did u just mention Cashley in  the same line as Paddy
While Paddy was never replaced, Please,Gael'who cares about cashley' Clichy has been a great left back for us and we are happy that Arrow left us

See,i can't blame y'all for thinking you all know the problems of Arsenal.
While a lot of footie analyst slagged Kolo Toure as a useless defender and called Adebayor a 'miss10 score 1' striker when they were with us,
This same set of people are now describing them as the 'cornerstone' of Arsenal.
Like we won what with them around last season.
Like I always say, until we win silverware, even the likes of Phil Brown would continue to have a go at Arsenal!

@ HNIC.   haha,  This is Arsenal we're talking about, right? "U didn't lose a single match" is a colorful way of saying "u didn't win as many mtches as u needed to". Arsenal racking up draws is nothing to be excited about. U used to win trophies. . . now u're happy u didn't lose games?

And I mentioned Ashley Coles character. Clichy is excellent and I even want Barca to come and kidnap him. It isn't about talent. . .No one denies that Arsenal has tonnes of talent. I'm saying thats not all it takes

Arsenal lost abot 5 games while Fabregas was fit last season to Hull, Stoke, Villa, when he was injured, the losing streak stopped.Arsenal practically went out of contention with fabregas on the field.

See,i can't blame y'all for thinking you all know the problems of Arsenal.
While a lot of footie analyst slagged Kolo Toure as a useless defender and called Adebayor a 'miss10 score 1' striker when they were with us,
This same set of people are now describing them as the 'cornerstone' of Arsenal.
Like we won what with them around last season.
Like I always say, until we win silverware, even the likes of Phil Brown would continue to have a go at Arsenal!

u seem not to know the problems of Arsenal urself.   .   .
nobody is saying u shldnt sell
sell everything if u like, but who are the people coming in?

eversince the selling spree began, who and who have you been buying?
whats ur scorecard since u started selling?
dont u guys get tired of supporting absolute wengay rubbish?

does supporting Arsenal mean u shld close ur eyes to the ills affecting the club?
u dont wanna tell us all is well with ur club.  .   . and if all is not well, then tell us wht you think is wrong cos u only see the disparaging remarks, u dont see the point we try to make.
tell us why u have been abysymal in 5 years
just 3 points will do

Krayola2:

@ HNIC.   haha,  This is Arsenal we're talking about, right? "U didn't lose a single match" is a colorful way of saying "u didn't win as many mtches as u needed to". Arsenal racking up draws is nothing to be excited about. U used to win trophies. . . now u're happy u didn't lose games?

And I mentioned Ashley Coles character. Clichy is excellent and I even want Barca to come and kidnap him. It isn't about talent. . .No one denies that Arsenal has tonnes of talent. I'm saying thats not all it takes

I don't know what you mean by the above comment, but Arsenal have always drawn more games than the average top 4 team - even in the invincibles season, we drew 12 games just like this season. They key for us is not losing.

Krayola2:

 

relax. . .u don't have to draw ridiculous parallels to make ur point. Even Barca can't compete with Madrid and Man City's recent splurge. . My point was that u can't compete for honors with a bunch of underpaid kids. No one is denying the talent, but it takes more than that to bag trophies.

Who are the 'underpaid' kids at Arsenal?  

Gerrard is an exception to the rule, and u can't make that the standard. It's like asking Rooney to leave Man U for Chelsea, or Messi to leave Barca for Espanyol.  There are a few players that will turn down money. . .and those that do it do it because they already have it really good where they are. . .not because they don't care about the money. At some point a raise doesn't really mean much. . .but players that are not at that level yet run at the money. I don't blame Adebayor, or Flamini or any of those guys. All of us be boys and we know wetin dey . .Its all about the money. . .no one owes any club jack shit!!  I'm sure Torres gets paid really well, if not he'd be looking for a new club.  

Again, if it's all about money like you say, then we can't keep any player cos there are bigger wages out there. Again, what is this thing about being 'well paid'? Who is not well paid at Arsenal? Was it Ade whose wage doubled twice in two seasons?  

Flamini claims he didn't leave for money, but it seems he did. The club has to make wise decisions in the end - if you give Flamini ridiculous money for one season, what do you do for Cesc and others? When does it become unsustainable?

aight. . .u`re right. . . But I was assuming he meant leaders that can take one for the team. . u know, push people around, get up in people's faces and make the team rally around him. kinda like Vieira used to do. Fabregas  is one of the ones left that I see with that kind of character (when he was injured the team looked like a joke).  .the rest mostly get pushed around. Think of characters like Vieira, Ashley Cole, and tell me guys like that wouldn`t make a world of difference. If Wenger was going to let those guys go, he should have thought, not just of talent, but getting players that bring those other qualities to the team.

All this talk is debatable and is a matter of perception. Who 'rallies' Utd? Who 'rallies' Barca?  

Its nothing against Arsenal. . .I just think Wenger got some things wrong. I think he`s legendary but that does not make him flawless

Undoubtedly he does - anyone who has read more than a few of my posts can see the catalogue of issues I've pointed out. Heck I even made a thread about my grouse with Wenger in 07 so I am very much aware of his flaws.

tkb417:

u seem not to know the problems of Arsenal urself.   .   .
nobody is saying u shldnt sell
sell everything if u like, but who are the people coming in?

eversince the selling spree began, who and who have you been buying?
whats ur scorecard since u started selling?
dont u guys get tired of supporting absolute wengay rubbish?

does supporting Arsenal mean u shld close ur eyes to the ills affecting the club?
u dont wanna tell us all is well with ur club.  .   . and if all is not well, then tell us wht you think is wrong cos u only see the disparaging remarks, u dont see the point we try to make.
tell us why u have been abysymal in 5 years
just 3 points will do

You are wicked

dayokanu:

Arsenal lost abot 5 games while Fabregas was fit last season to Hull, Stoke, Villa, when he was injured, the losing streak stopped.Arsenal practically went out of contention with fabregas on the field.

DDK looks at it from another Fabregas angle. Interesting.

@ Krayola

Debosky will always draw up ridiculous assetions to justify AW's flaws.

coded guy:

@ Krayola

Debosky will always draw up ridiculous assetions to justify AW's flaws.

What flaws have I justified? Kolo was as much a part of the problem as anyone - that is a fact. RVP is not reluctant to say we need to strengthen, but it's only after a pay packet doubling that Kolo talks? Am I supposed to take that drivel seriously?? The same Kolo less than 2 months ago saying we can win by keeping the side together and had already decided to leave when making those comments? 

Y'all will believe anything said against Arsenal as true - heck, Arsene was the one who injected Kolo with malaria to destroy his form - that is Wenger's greatest flaw. 

Dont you know Fabregas has a losing streak in him?

Since he got to Assanal they havent won a league. When he started against USA in confed cup Spain lost,
In the Euro 2008 finals that he started the coach had to haul him off.
fabregas was the first spainard to be substituted  on the night!!!

Clever coaches know Fabregas is a weak link

debosky:

What flaws have I justified? Kolo was as much a part of the problem as anyone - that is a fact. RVP is not reluctant to say we need to strengthen, but it's only after a pay packet doubling that Kolo talks? Am I supposed to take that drivel seriously?? The same Kolo less than 2 months ago saying we can win by keeping the side together and had already decided to leave when making those comments?

Y'all will believe anything said against Arsenal as true - heck, Arsene was the one who injected Kolo with malaria to destroy his form - that is Wenger's greatest flaw.

RVP knows he cant be fit for whole season, so he is justified in not being reluctant in asking to strenghten the team


Where did AW inject Kolo with malaria, his butt i guess, hope he didn't inject something else that has made the African accelerate his leaving.

dayokanu:

Clever coaches know Fabregas is a weak link

and Frankenstein riberry is a world class player abi

@ dayokanu, please tell me u are not one of those people that puts the performance of  team on one player's head. My point about Arsenal without Fabregas was more about their character. U know, how they stand up to refs, their attitude, demeanor on the pitch. Fabregas is one of the few left that seem s to have that steel to his character. Arsenal doesn't have a talent problem. it is an attitude thing. They need one or 2 big strong bullies on the team. Yaya would have been great but that one na story.

@ debosky. . . I don't know how much Arsenal players get paid to be honest, but I know that besides Fabregas, Arsenal players generally bounce the moment a good offer comes their way. it didn't just start this season. It has been the general trend for a while now.

Krayola2:



@ debosky. . . I don't know how much Arsenal players get paid to be honest, but I know that besides Fabregas, Arsenal players generally bounce the moment a good offer comes their way. it didn't just start this season. It has been the general trend for a while now.

This is false – Vieira stayed for 9 years, do you think he didn’t get ‘bigger’ deals in that time? What about Lehmann? Henry? Pires? Ljunberg?

What happens is very simple – Arsene will sell a player when he feels he is able to replace that player and strengthen his side in other areas with the proceeds. He has done that numerous times with Anelka, Overmars, Petit, Silvinho and others.

Players have always left Arsenal and Arsene has rebuilt and won trophies – people can question what has happened in the past 4 seasons and the questions are legitimate, but any analysis ignoring the 7 seasons prior to this barren spell will be incomplete.

It’s too easy to claim Arsenal doesn’t pay good wages but this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, especially when an analysis done 2 years ago showed our wage bill was comparable to Utd’s.

Krayola,

Its not the first time we would see a single player carrying a whole team so its not strange

@Tkb417
When we went on an unbeaten run, we sold too in that season, didn't we
What I am saying is that the man hasn't said he isn't buying
All this would be assessed on August 31.
We would see whether AW would buy to replace our 'superstars', Kolo and Ade
The true picture of the team will be known and I won't fail to criticise the man, if I feel we are not good enough to compete
@Krayola2
Don't become like dem scummies, twisting the original arguement
You described the Arsenal team as a joke in Cesc's absence
and I pointed out to you that we did not lose a single match in his absence.
I didn't say we won anything, we didn't lose any match
With your vivid description of the team being a joke in his absence
One would have thought we lost game after game when he wasn't there

HNIC,

On the contrary most of the losses were with Fabregas on the field.

Fab threw away Assanals league chances last season like he has done in the last 5 seasons

As usual. . . The usual dumb crew on the GUNNERS thread trying to remain relevant by vomiting 'Roaches and Bedbugs. . . !
Pssf, we cool and we aight so it's all good!