I am a christian and I get what the op is saying about magical thinking and how it affects how we think and how we react as a society when faced with a problem.
The key point the op is making is that the solutions we come up with to a given problem depends to a large extent on how the problem is defined or perceived by us in the first place. So in a country like Nigeria where most people believe that the spiritual governs the physical we tend to find spiritual answers to every problem since the problem is spiritual by definition.

Take one common example, many of us pray fervently when embarking on a journey of say Lagos to Abuja by road. But when travelling a similar distance between two European cities we tend not to pray at all and when we do, not as fervently.
It is quite easy to see why the same person that begged God for journey mercies while in Nigeria won't even remember to ask God for journey mercy while travelly in a developed country. It is because we have come to dissociate bad roads, bad drivers and unroadworthy vehicles from why a road journey in Nigeria is filled with peril and associate wicked blood sucking spirits with their numerous witches and wizards human agents as the cause of accidents.
So instead of demanding for good roads and holding our government accountable for how our taxes are spent, we worry about not missing our tithe payment lest calamity befalls us.
Instead of insisting that drivers drive responsibly and obey trafic rules, we pray and ask for journy mercies.
Instead of making sure that the vehicle is roadworthy, we just simply cover it with the blood of Jesus.
Yet we wonder why we have more accidents on our roads compared to countries where they don't utter a word of prayer before travelling.

dorox:
I am a christian and I get what the op is saying about magical thinking and how it affects how we think and how we react as a society when faced with a problem.
The key point the op is making is that the solutions we come up with to a given problem depends to a large extent on how the problem is defined or perceived by us in the first place. So in a country like Nigeria where most people believe that the spiritual governs the physical we tend to find spiritual answers to every problem since the problem is spiritual by definition.

Take one common example, many of us pray fervently when embarking on a journey of say Lagos to Abuja by road. But when travelling a similar distance between two European cities we tend not to pray at all and when we do, not as fervently.
It is quite easy to see why the same person that begged God for journey mercies while in Nigeria won't even remember to ask God for journey mercy while travelly in a developed country. It is because we have come to dissociate bad roads, bad drivers and unroadworthy vehicles from why a road journey in Nigeria is filled with peril and associate wicked blood sucking spirits with their numerous witches and wizards human agents as the cause of accidents.
So instead of demanding for good roads and holding our government accountable for how our taxes are spent, we worry about not missing our tithe payment lest calamity befalls us.
Instead of insisting that drivers drive responsibly and obey trafic rules, we pray and ask for journy mercies.
Instead of making sure that the vehicle is roadworthy, we just simply cover it with the blood of Jesus.
Yet we wonder why we have more accidents on our roads compared to countries where they don't utter a word of prayer before travelling.

Wow

You my good sir are on point

Respect

dorox:
I am a christian and I get what the op is saying about magical thinking and how it affects how we think and how we react as a society when faced with a problem.
The key point the op is making is that the solutions we come up with to a given problem depends to a large extent on how the problem is defined or perceived by us in the first place. So in a country like Nigeria where most people believe that the spiritual governs the physical we tend to find spiritual answers to every problem since the problem is spiritual by definition.

Take one common example, many of us pray fervently when embarking on a journey of say Lagos to Abuja by road. But when travelling a similar distance between two European cities we tend not to pray at all and when we do, not as fervently.
It is quite easy to see why the same person that begged God for journey mercies while in Nigeria won't even remember to ask God for journey mercy while travelly in a developed country. It is because we have come to dissociate bad roads, bad drivers and unroadworthy vehicles from why a road journey in Nigeria is filled with peril and associate wicked blood sucking spirits with their numerous witches and wizards human agents as the cause of accidents.
So instead of demanding for good roads and holding our government accountable for how our taxes are spent, we worry about not missing our tithe payment lest calamity befalls us.
Instead of insisting that drivers drive responsibly and obey trafic rules, we pray and ask for journy mercies.
Instead of making sure that the vehicle is roadworthy, we just simply cover it with the blood of Jesus.
Yet we wonder why we have more accidents on our roads compared to countries where they don't utter a word of prayer before travelling.

I understand your point but l still fail to see how this correlates with winning gold medals at the Olympics or are you saying Nigerians see the Olympic tournament as a spiritual battle? rather than preparing or working hard? Even the example you gave, shows that the religious even though they see things from a spiritual point of view knows what should be done, and would also agree with you on that.
The problem l have with the op is in connecting our religion to our Olympic woes, rather than blaming it on our lack of planning majorly due to bad governance and corruption.

kilo4sure:

I understand your point but l still fail to see how this correlates with winning gold medals at the Olympics or are you saying Nigerians see the Olympic tournament as a spiritual battle? rather than preparing or working hard? Even the example you gave, shows that the religious even though they see things from a spiritual point of view knows what should be done, and would also agree with you on that.
The problem l have with the op is in connecting our religion to our Olympic woes, rather than blaming it on our lack of planning majorly due to bad governance and corruption.

Where the op is coming from will make sense to anyone that have heard Nigerian supporters at a sports event singing " He is a miracle working God."

dorox:


Where the op is coming from will make sense to anyone that have heard Nigerian supporters at a sports event singing " He is a miracle working God."

Yes you are right but Nigerians believing in the miracle working God for football or Olympic games is irrelevant to our failure or success, that is my point. The op seem to have made it relevant. Brazil is a very religious country and some of these players like kaka depend on God for their success, did they fail? even in this Olympic games many individuals believe God is with them, and when interviewed would sing the praises of God, it is a usual thing in sports. Christians usually do this because of the book of proverbs that says ''commit all thy ways to the lord''(may not be the exact quote), but thesame book of Proverbs says ''seeth thou a man diligent in his work, he shall stand before kings not mere men". Christians are aware of both verses and are not to choose one totally at the expense of the other. This seems to be your point but it is different from that of the op. The op somehow wants to show a correlation between the religious and failure.

hopefulLandlord:

Wow
You my good sir are on point
Respect

Bro, how you dey?
Hope things are all going well?

kilo4sure:

I understand your point but l still fail to see how this correlates with winning gold medals at the Olympics or are you saying Nigerians see the Olympic tournament as a spiritual battle? rather than preparing or working hard? Even the example you gave, shows that the religious even though they see things from a spiritual point of view knows what should be done, and would also agree with you on that.
The problem l have with the op is in connecting our religion to our Olympic woes, rather than blaming it on our lack of planning majorly due to bad governance and corruption.

See Plaett.on's post on the first page.

Ranchhoddas:
See Plaett.on's post on the first page.

Plaetton asked if religion is a factor in our failure, and seems to believe it is, do you agree with him? is religion now the cause of our lack of proper planning?

kilo4sure:

Plaetton asked if religion is a factor in our failure, and seems to believe it is, do you agree with him? is religion now the cause of our lack of proper planning?

It seems so. Magical thinking has far-reaching effects.

kilo4sure:

Yes you are right but Nigerians believing in the miracle working God for football or Olympic games is irrelevant to our failure or success, that is my point. The op seem to have made it relevant. Brazil is a very religious country and some of these players like kaka depend on God for their success, did they fail? even in this Olympic games many individuals believe God is with them, and when interviewed would sing the praises of God, it is a usual thing in sports. Christians usually do this because of the book of proverbs that says ''commit all thy ways to the lord''(may not be the exact quote), but thesame book of Proverbs says ''seeth thou a man diligent in his work, he shall stand before kings not mere men". Christians are aware of both verses and are not to choose one totally at the expense of the other. This seems to be your point but it is different from that of the op. The op somehow wants to show a correlation between the religious and failure.

What is relevant is the extent to which such belief is held in the society. Here in Nigeria, public libraries are almost extinct, a relic of our colonial past. The few that remain are more or less museums with a catalog of books that was published no later than the mid 90's. Meanwhile, we have been investing huge sums as a society into building thousands of churches and mosques and stocking our bookshops with religious books as we continue to decimate our educational system.

But yes, you are correct. Brazil is a religious country, they haven't reached the level of religiosity that would make them stop investing in important things like sports and education. That is why they can embark on a project like this; a twenty billion naira science museum.

dorox:


What is relevant is the extent to which such belief is held in the society. Here in Nigeria, public libraries are almost extinct, a relic of our colonial past. The few that remain are more or less museums with a catalog of books that was published no later than the mid 90's. Meanwhile, we have been investing huge sums as a society into building thousands of churches and mosques and stocking our bookshops with religious books as we continue to decimate our educational system.

But yes, you are correct. Brazil is a religious country, they haven't reached the level of religiosity that would make them stop investing in important things like sports and education. That is why they can embark on a project like this; a twenty billion naira science museum.

In other words, the problem is with Nigeria and not religion, or perhaps the way Nigerians practice religion.

kilo4sure:

In other words, the problem is with Nigeria and not religion, or perhaps the way Nigerians practice religion.

True enough my friend. But then again, how do we judge a religion if not be looking at how it is practiced by its adherents?

I dunno why i feel like posting this

dorox:


True enough my friend. But then again, how do we judge a religion if not be looking at how it is practiced by its adherents?

Would it then be by looking at it in just one country Nigeria? You said you are a Christian, so should l judge Christianity only by how you and your church practice it?

Is the writer of this thread really that ignorant or he is trying to just be sarcastic?
Very sorry to ask!
Because its like he is about blaming "religion" for his own failures all over the place.
So much moreover, when did performance at the olympics start to have any bearing with the religious status of the olympics.
And please go and study history, the olympics event was born out of a religion before it became modernized,

Chai, so much for a dismal post
SMH

Those two kids Kingebukasblog and Winner01 have start to derail this fine thread it's a shame that both of U can't even bring out sense I mean common sense in the info U put out...U post something and the picture below don't relate? Are U guys this foolish or what? Don't U see U disgracing Ur religion? What ignorance? Its a shame But I don't blame both of U that's what Christianity causes U don't see Muslims on Nl behaving childish as U guys do on threads Just in the sake of derailing it!!

@op Nice Point U Brought Up There. But wrong topic it should be Why Is Religious Nigeria Under performing In The Olympic

kilo4sure:

Would it then be by looking at it in just one country Nigeria? You said you are a Christian, so should l judge Christianity only by how you and your church practice it?

Since my view is not representative of the general christian population in Nigeria, it would be grossly inaccurate to judge christianity based on my view.
The op is about the majority of religious people in the country that have refused to engage their reasoning ability just because of religion.
Take for example, the average Nigerian will call anybody a liar that claims to have driven a car for hundreds of miles without fuel. But when Daddy G.o Adeboye and Pastor Chris told this same lie in front of a full church, their members forgot how to think and began shouting praises to God for the awesome miracle.
The average christian in the West would instantly say it cannot be true.

dorox:


Since my view is not representative of the general christian population in Nigeria, it would be grossly inaccurate to judge christianity based on my view.
The op is about the majority of religious people in the country that have refused to engage their reasoning ability just because of religion.
Take for example, the average Nigerian will call anybody a liar that claims to have driven a car for hundreds of miles without fuel. But when Daddy G.o Adeboye and Pastor Chris told this same lie in front of a full church, their members forgot how to think and began shouting praises to God for the awesome miracle.
The average christian in the West would instantly say it cannot be true.

Then we are saying thesame thing, perhaps the problem is with those Nigerian Christians.

plaetton:
Please read the op very well.
The op is not suggesting that religion is the direct cause of our underperformance at the Olympics.
No.
Rather, he is asking, as we atheists usually do, why does our over-religiosity, our supposed closeness to divine powers and miracles always fail to show its pre-eminence in major facets of our personal national lives?

Why are we last in economic management, ethics, peace and harmony, science and technology, health and longevity, even the commonest luxury of 24 hr electricity?

Is religion( our existential worldview) a factor in our collective FAILURE as a people?
That is the simple , but critical question.

We atheists already know the answer.

We just like to remind the rest of you once in a while.

The OP asked a valid question. Why is religious Africa underperforming at the Olympics and indeed every other indice of human development. Instead of the theists to reflect on the questions, there are going on the attack and comparing us to other continents.
Religious Africa is underperforming generally because we waste so much time in unproductive activities, instead of developing ourselves, individually and collectively, couple with the fact that we lack ability long time planing and foresight. We want instant and huge gratification with little planing and work. This is exactly what our brand of religion offers and why people spend more time with religious affairs than with actual productive activities.
A typical religious Nigerian will spend an average of two hours everyday in prayers. The average Christian would attend mid week service on Wednesday, night vigil on Friday ( making Saturday morning useless), then probably fellowship, choir practice or other church activities for the rest of Saturday. Some attend cell meetings or fellowships during the working days. If you add up all the time an average Nigerian spends on religious activities, I am sure it is not less than 25% of his/her waking time.
Now let's interpolate this time wastage with others from other parts of the world.
Athletes from other spend less than 10% of their waking hours on religious affairs, those from Europe and Asia even spend less. So obviously they put in more physical effort at trainings than our African based athletes. Furthermore, other athletes starts training for the next Olympics immediately the present Olympics ends. We Africans generally start preparing for the next competition a few months to the games. How do we hope to compete.
This same over religiosity affect all facets of our lives. I was miffed while university that science and technology students who should be spending most of their waking hours at research and study, waste lots of time with religious activities. You expect these students to compete with others from other parts of the world or lead Nigeria's technological development?

wirinet:

The OP asked a valid question. Why is religious Africa underperforming at the Olympics and indeed every other indice of human development. Instead of the theists to reflect on the questions, there are going on the attack and comparing us to other continents.
Religious Africa is underperforming generally because we waste so much time in unproductive activities, instead of developing ourselves, individually and collectively, couple with the fact that we lack ability long time planing and foresight. We want instant and huge gratification with little planing and work. This is exactly what our brand of religion offers and why people spend more time with religious affairs than with actual productive activities.
A typical religious Nigerian will spend an average of two hours everyday in prayers. The average Christian would attend mid week service on Wednesday, night vigil on Friday ( making Saturday morning useless), then probably fellowship, choir practice or other church activities for the rest of Saturday. Some attend cell meetings or fellowships during the working days. If you add up all the time an average Nigerian spends on religious activities, I am sure it is not less than 25% of his/her waking time.
Now let's interpolate this time wastage with others from other parts of the world.
Athletes from other spend less than 10% of their waking hours on religious affairs, those from Europe and Asia even spend less. So obviously they put in more physical effort at trainings than our African based athletes. Furthermore, other athletes starts training for the next Olympics immediately the present Olympics ends. We Africans generally start preparing for the next competition a few months to the games. How do we hope to compete.
This same over religiosity affect all facets of our lives. I was miffed while university that science and technology students who should be spending most of their waking hours at research and study, waste lots of time with religious activities. You expect these students to compete with others from other parts of the world or lead Nigeria's technological development?

Exactly, you are very correct. Just like l said there's probably a flaw in the way the average African practice religion, of course there should be a way to balance things. The book of Proverbs even says... Seeth thou a man diligent in his work, he shall stand before kings not mere men. Even so, Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and unto God what belongs to God.
The problem might be with us Africans, for even before the missionaries came, we were still in our own little world without any sort of powerful invention, and there's no proof that without religious activities we would be better than other nations. Afterall in terms of the Olympics you wouldn't say the lack of preparation of the athletes was due to religion, would you? When we performed better in Atlanta 96, were we any less religious? Are we more religious than the Britons were when they experienced their industrial revolution? The problem is not religion but the African man and his inability in most cases to use things properly.

wirinet:

The OP asked a valid question. Why is religious Africa underperforming at the Olympics and indeed every other indice of human development. Instead of the theists to reflect on the questions, there are going on the attack and comparing us to other continents.
Religious Africa is underperforming generally because we waste so much time in unproductive activities, instead of developing ourselves, individually and collectively, couple with the fact that we lack ability long time planing and foresight. We want instant and huge gratification with little planing and work. This is exactly what our brand of religion offers and why people spend more time with religious affairs than with actual productive activities.
A typical religious Nigerian will spend an average of two hours everyday in prayers. The average Christian would attend mid week service on Wednesday, night vigil on Friday ( making Saturday morning useless), then probably fellowship, choir practice or other church activities for the rest of Saturday. Some attend cell meetings or fellowships during the working days. If you add up all the time an average Nigerian spends on religious activities, I am sure it is not less than 25% of his/her waking time.
Now let's interpolate this time wastage with others from other parts of the world.
Athletes from other spend less than 10% of their waking hours on religious affairs, those from Europe and Asia even spend less. So obviously they put in more physical effort at trainings than our African based athletes. Furthermore, other athletes starts training for the next Olympics immediately the present Olympics ends. We Africans generally start preparing for the next competition a few months to the games. How do we hope to compete.
This same over religiosity affect all facets of our lives. I was miffed while university that science and technology students who should be spending most of their waking hours at research and study, waste lots of time with religious activities. You expect these students to compete with others from other parts of the world or lead Nigeria's technological development?

Very good points. Your post reminded me of this quote.



I think what the theists on this thread are neglecting to acknowledge is that there are different levels of religiosity.

When a person attributes his successes to god(s) (like many athletes and celebrities around the world still do) yet did all of the work himself, and understands that without training and hard work he would not have made it, he's what I'd call moderately/casually religious. The type of person to ace an exam and say "Thank God" knowing full well it was their many hours of studying that got them there. The vast majority of religious people in the developed countries fall into this category.

Religion is a source of comfort for them, which they relay their achievements and gratitude through, but when push comes to shove they don't truly believe god miraculously steps into people's lives and does things without them having to do what it physically takes to make them happen -- except perhaps in very rare cases.

In other words, their level of religiosity is nothing like the brand of fervent miracle-touting, night vigil holding, holy-ghost fire summoning, Nigerian religiosity. Their behaviors (praying rarely or only before certain events, not taking prayers as seriously, investing way more time in training/studies than church, fully embracing secular ideas and lifestyles, not screaming for Holy Ghost fire to consume their enemies) show they are further into the realm of reason, but still have god/religion as an emotional crutch.

cloudgoddess:

Very good points. Your post reminded me of this quote.



I think what the theists on this thread are neglecting to acknowledge is that there are different levels of religiosity.

When a person attributes his successes to god(s) (like many athletes and celebrities around the world still do) yet did all of the work himself, and understands that without training and hard work he would not have made it, he's what I'd call moderately/casually religious. The type of person to ace an exam and say "Thank God" knowing full well it was their many hours of studying that got them there. The vast majority of religious people in the developed countries fall into this category.

Religion is a source of comfort for them, which they relay their achievements and gratitude through, but when push comes to shove they don't truly believe god miraculously steps into people's lives and does things without them having to do what it physically takes to make them happen.

In other words, their level of religiosity is nothing like the brand of fervent miracle-touting, night vigil holding, holy-ghost fire summoning, Nigerian religiosity. Their behaviors (praying rarely or only before certain events, not taking prayers as seriously, investing way more time in training/studies than church, fully embracing secular ideas and lifestyles, not screaming for Holy Ghost fire to consume their enemies) show they are further into the realm of reason, but still have god/religion as an emotional crutch.

Nice one, although god/religion and the realm of reason are not mutually exclusive.

kilo4sure:

Nice one, although god/religion and the realm of reason are not mutually exclusive.

This I agree with and it it exactly the point that I have been driving at. But if we refrain from calling out the idìocy and hypocrisy of of holding such ridiculous beliefs because the people holding them identify as christians, then we would be helping the atheist who are quite comfortably and happy to point at the ridiculousness of having magical thinking.

dorox:


This I agree with and it it exactly the point that I have been driving at. But if we refrain from calling out the idìocy and hypocrisy of of holding such ridiculous beliefs because the people holding them identify as christians, then we would be helping the atheist who are quite comfortably and happy to point at the ridiculousness of having magical thinking.

Lol you are right, though sometimes l Wonder, since we have so many atheists in Nigeria like we see on Nairaland, and since they believe religion is anti science or limits potential, l would prefer if they begin to show us the way in Nigeria by becoming much more productive than the religious in Nigeria in all spheres of life, that is what Nigeria needs now and not just talk, talk or condemnation of religion. I say this because while in school, l knew a dedicated choir mistress in the medical department, she was quite excellent as a medical practitioner and in her department, even better than most of her non religious colleagues, it is obvious that her dedication to the work of God hardly prevented her from being the best at what she does. What about Michael Faraday? or the monk Gregor Mendel, these people had active religious lives but it never stopped them from utilizing their time in other ventures. Hope you get my drift? The most important thing is to use your time wisely(religious or non religious).

Religion in China
According to the most recent demographic analyses , an average 80% of the population in China, that is hundreds of millions of people, practice some kinds of Chinese folk religions and Taoism, 10–16% are Buddhists, 2–4% are Christians, and 1–2% are Muslims.



Check China's medals on the Table and you'd see why your thread makes ZERO sense.

kilo4sure:

Lol you are right, though sometimes l Wonder, since we have so many atheists in Nigeria like we see on Nairaland, and since they believe religion is anti science or limits potential, l would prefer if they begin to show us the way in Nigeria by becoming much more productive than the religious in Nigeria in all spheres of life, that is what Nigeria needs now and not just talk, talk or condemnation of religion. I say this because while in school, l knew a dedicated choir mistress in the medical department, she was quite excellent as a medical practitioner and in her department, even better than most of her non religious colleagues, it is obvious that her dedication to the work of God hardly prevented her from being the best at what she does. What about Michael Faraday? or the monk Gregor Mendel, these people had active religious lives but it never stopped them from utilizing their time in other ventures. Hope you get my drift? The most important thing is to use your time wisely(religious or non religious).

You appear to be focused on the proverbial tree instead of the forest. Society is made up of many people that are interconnected to each other such that the action of one person can affect the wellbeing of others not directly connected to that person.
Like the woman in your example, though she is a brilliant medical practioner, have you ever considered what she might have become if she had been nutured in a society that places a premium on education and ecourages children to develope their crtical thinking abilities?
Perhaps she might have been counted as one of those brilliant indivviduals taking the lead in advancing the boundaries of medical practices or any other field.

If looked from this perspective you will realise that even in her relative success the society may have failed her by not creating the space necessary for her to achieve her potential.

dorox:


You appear to be focused on the proverbial tree instead of the forest. Society is made up of many people that are interconnected to each other such that the action of one person can affect the wellbeing of others not directly connected to that person.
Like the woman in your example, though she is a brilliant medical practioner, have you ever considered what she might have become if she had been nutured in a society that places a premium on education and ecourages children to develope their crtical thinking abilities?
Perhaps she might have been counted as one of those brilliant indivviduals taking the lead in advancing the boundaries of medical practices or any other field.

If looked from this perspective you will realise that even in her relative success the society may have failed her by not creating the space necessary for her to achieve her potential.

My problem with atheists is that they believe that religion itself rather than how it is practiced is the problem Nigeria has, even if there was no religion in Nigeria l am not convinced the problems we face as a nation would be gone. Our politicians are corrupt, and the nation is corrupt even with religion, there's no proof that without religion we would be any less corrupt or the society would be better.
Don't get me wrong, l am against dogmatism, fanaticism and ignorance at all levels but atheists speak as though there cannot be a form of religion where all of these are reduced to the minimum. Many atheists even from what l see on Nairaland believe they are more scientific or intelligent than the religious. They blame religions for everything, in my opinion blaming religion for our downfall at the Olympics when we all know why we failed is ridiculous. You can blame some form of religious worldviews in Nigeria for our limitations in science but come on, not the Olympics. Even without religion we may not still perform well at the Olympics, what would you heap the blame on then?
Anyway it was nice having this chat with you all, l think l have made my point about this thread in particular

Ranchhoddas:
It seems so. Magical thinking has far-reaching effects.

Hmm if you truly believe that, then l'm afraid it seems you are the one with the magical thinking here.

kilo4sure:

Hmm if you truly believe that, then l'm afraid it seems you are the one with the magical thinking here.

It is what it is man. You clearly did not grasp plae.tton's first post and I have neither the energy nor the will to type.

Why is Africa underperforming and lagging behind in most determinant factors of progress and advacement: technological, scientific, economics etc...


Being religious does not determine success.

First: to which god are you pleading allegiance to? The nonexistent one or god of the isrealites or

Secondly: god cannot force you to use the sense and brain and fortitude he gave people to advance.

Africa has talent, intelligence, man power, natural resource and other capita. But, they wont use it properly! Corruption and selfishness! And sturborness to use what we learn to advance.

Its not about religion at all.

Lol