the Iranian president yesterday in a confreence called the helocoust a myth and again re-iterate his opinion that Isreal be wiped out of the map.
in his words he said soon the zionist will no longer be in existance.
who is he representing here,God or the muslims?
has a mad man been mistakenly made a president?
what is the realisties of his mission (wiping isreal out of the map)?

Ahmedinajad is a man of peace and Iran stands for truth, justice and human rights!

I share the opinion expressed by a blogger,Jules Crittenden, on this issue which is that this Holocaust deniers conference is a good thing

As he says, "anytime evil bigots display for the world what morons they are without actually killing anyone,that is a good thing"

Mr. Ahmadinejad is being unfairly villified in the West.  What he called for is to wipe out the "Zionist entity" from the map, which is very different from "massacring all Jews in Israel".  What he means is that Israel is an unsustainable state having been founded through terror organizations (Irgun, Hagana, etc.) and the systematic destruction of Arab villages prior in the final days leading to 1948 procalamation of independence.  The population of Palestine was roughly 80% Arab and 20% Jewish of mostly European lineage. Israel realized that it could only start a false "Jewish character" of the land by opressing the Palestinians and making their lives a living hell (hoping they would all immigrate - which they haven't).
It's time that the world opens its eyes and realize that peace in the middle east (and the whole world) will only be possible through justice in the holy land - and this includes freeing the Palestinians from their daily misery of occupation, check points, home demolitions, and targetted assassinations,

PS. Just look how Desmond Tutu's investigation mission to Beit Hanoun (Gaza) was blocked by Israel. Why does Israel consistently frustrate all UN efforts at investigating the massacre of civilians (refer to Qana in Lebanon where more than 70 women and children were murdered in cold blood)? What have they got to hide? The world sees state terrorism in this,

Zexyworm,
from your writeup, i can see u have information and topics like this could be discussed well only by people like you. i want to equally believe that you as a good teacher will equally be a good learner.
if based on the origin and existance of Isreal, they are terrorists, what name do u call liberia? knowing too well how the were brought back from America as liberated slaves.
i always feel i can change things whenever i see some writeups presenting certain leaders and men as saints. who is the iranian president? how does he come to power? what is his back ground? have u been able to have words with iranians and know what they feel? i am not far from them and i practically visit iran at least once every three (3) Months and i know what the situation is with the people and no nigerian can be under such restrictions over such a period of time.
let us look at hamas and hezaboulah, what are they and how far have they gone with voilence since they choose voilence as a solution.
Isreal blocked Desmond Tutu and it become a problem, how many UN resolutions have been failed by hamas and hezeboulah? why is it widely reported about the death of civilian as a result of isreali attack but no one is interested in the immediate course of attack. why the qana problem? why the gaza raids? will it not be wise if one the course and then believe that somebody acted b4 someother person reacts.
are you saying that kidnaping is allowed in UN resolutions? when rockets are fired into a city without target, what do u expect? are u saying those isrealites killed by rockets from hamas and hezeboulah are worthy to die? are u saying they have no rights to exist.
from your presentations, here i know too well that the invicible hands of syria and iran are on these crises and in their fights to instale Islamist radicals all over the arab world.
if we are looking at isreal, what is the problem in lebanon? why the political killings of important office holders? who are behind that? is it not time we begin to accept the fact that these wars are sponsored and no matter how u look at it, most people benefit from times like this.
i want to believe that peace at all levels is the best and several ambers of the UN have called for a peaceful co-existance of Isreal and palastine but hamas as puppet has refused this and in the manner of iranian president isreal off the map but the big question here is, off to where? what is the possibility of waking up in the morning to see that there is no more isreal and that the whole world is at peace again?
if one can be at peace with most of these questions and find reasonable and realistic answers, it will then be easy to conclude on the possibilities and probabilities of all these wishes.

@Chidichris & Zexyworm,

The problem with discussing these issues with the seriousness and objectivity they require is that many are often blinded by certain mindsets and hidden hate filled ideologies that is usually masked by pretending to be christains while supporting oppression, injustices, killing of innocent people etc.

Even some Americans attended the conference, the spiritual leader of the KKK and other non islamic people.

Sunnis and christains formed an alliance in the days of Saddam, today Sunnis and Christains are doing the same in Lebanon where they have indeed sided with the Hezbollah to democratically overthrow the government of Lebanon that is backed by the West.

Christains live in Iraq, Christains live in Lebanon, Christains live in Palestine, Muslims live in Israel.

So, who is fighting who? Who hates who? These are questions that one must honestly answer before engaging in discussions like these but unfortunately, simplistic opinions like all muslims are terrorists, the arabs does not want Israel to exist etc are being conveniently canvassed by the ill informed.

The president of Iran is one of the most intelligent presidents I have heard or seen on TV discussing issues whether technical, religious or political with real confidence and without seeking help from his aides before answering questions.

Even though the call for the destruction of the state of Israel is an improper statement since it means the destruction of everyone in Israel today. I do not believe in the death of any innocent person regardless of the person's race.

Israel has been going against UN's resolutions since time immemorial, the UN has consistently vetoed sanctions or resolutions that comes up at the UN when such resolutions do not favour Israel.

The world needs to focus on the real issues and find a lasting solution to the middle east problem, funny enough many Western nations do not want to tackle the problem head on even though they know where the problem lies.

If the late Arafat (the symbol of the Palestinian struggle when he was alive) could marry a christain and still allowed her to baptize their child in the church, allowed her to still attend mass, hung pictures of Jesus Christ in his home, one begins to wonder if their is any truth in the often cited hatred of the muslims against the non muslims or if certain powers are bent on creating this divide so that their selfish aims and objectives will be met.

Ultimately, we can never have peace unless their is justice and speaking of justice, in the middle east today there are a lot of injustices metted out against the poeple of Palestine and until these issues are addressed, nothing concrete will come out of any arrangements to force people to be peaceful.

NB: The word christain is used loosely to mean both the Jews and Christains.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is love correcting everything that stands against love.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Afam:

@Chidichris & Zexyworm,
(1) The problem with discussing these issues with the seriousness and objectivity they require is that many are often blinded by certain mindsets and hidden hate filled ideologies that is usually masked by pretending to be christains while supporting oppression, injustices, killing of innocent people etc.

(2) Even some Americans attended the conference, the "spiritual leader of the KKK" and other "non islamic" people.

(3) Sunnis and christains formed an alliance in the days of Saddam, today Sunnis and Christains are doing the same in Lebanon where they have indeed sided with the Hezbollah to "democratically overthrow" the government of Lebanon that is backed by the West.

(4) The president of Iran is one of the most intelligent presidents I have heard or seen on TV discussing issues whether technical, religious or political with real confidence and without seeking help from his aides before answering questions.

@All ,
Using every standard definition of 'objectivity' known; going by the listed quotations above, is it appropriate to think the author is being "objective" and not influenced by his/her own preconceived notion or "faith"? No!. Simply look at the few highlighted portions in the quotations above and you can see obvious 'oxymorons' like "democratically overthrow"; as well as 'prejudicial statements' like "pretending to be Christians", "non-islamic peoples" etc

zexyworm:

Mr. Ahmadinejad is being unfairly villified in the West. What he called for is to wipe out the "Zionist entity" from the map, which is very different from "massacring all Jews in Israel". (what's the difference ) What he means is that Israel is an unsustainable state having been founded through terror organizations (Irgun, Hagana, etc.) and the systematic destruction of Arab villages prior in the final days leading to 1948 procalamation of independence. The population of Palestine was roughly 80% Arab and 20% Jewish of mostly European lineage. Israel realized that it could only start a false "Jewish character" of the land by opressing the Palestinians and making their lives a living hell (hoping they would all immigrate - which they haven't).

@CHIDICRIS AND ZEXYWORM,
It would have been benefitial if zexyworm had kindly given some sources or references for the information that predicated the brief "history" of Israel he gave. However, I will re-post an earlier write-up of mine under the Israel vs Hizbollah thread, with references which I will ask Zexyworm to independently research and present his own finding. The references are government papers and books produced following academic research and are mostly available online; rather than spurious faith-based websites. This is the re-print-->
=================================================================================

@All:
In most of the Pro-Palestine websites, the conclusions or basis for their support is usually predicated on the following statement, which is from one of such websites: "During the 1948 war, 750,000 Palestinians fled in terror or were actively expelled from their ancestral homeland and turned into refugees". This is so ignorant and deceitful because they refused to state that the "1948 war" was actually 'started' by a coalition of Six Arab countries who 'attacked' the new Israeli state who were then forced to 'defend' themselves then, as they are still doing till today.
But why start from 1948?, it is intellectually lazy to do so. In fact if you really want to understand the origin of the conflict, historically, you will have to start from 1200 BC when the dispersion of the Jews from the 'land of Israel' started, with persecution upon persecution in everyland and everycountry. You will discover that the name of this land of Israel was changed to 'Palestine' by one of the Roman Emperors during the early wave of the 'Roman Crusades': he did this because of his hatred for the monotheist Jews who were not polytheist like the Romans and thus named the land after the Philistines, who are polytheists like the Romans and an arch-enemy of the Israelites. You will get to 18th century when trickles of Jews started returning to the then 'Eretz Yisrael' called Palestine and either worked for or 'bought' arid lands from the Arab landowners before turning it to flourishing agricultural lands (this is called the first "Aliyah" or going up: 1840/70). Then get to 19th century when more Jews came back to 'their' land and 'bought' lands (sanctioned by the Turkish governor of the then 'Eretz Yisrael' under the Ottoman Empire and later the British government and the Arabs in the region) to escape the escalating persecution in Europe and rising anti-semitism elsewhere. It is an historical fact , and indeed true, that the first, second and subsequent waves of attacks on the Jews in Eretz Yisrael were initiated by Arabs under influence of the Haj Amin el Hussein- the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (a muslim Nazi ally) in the late 1920s and 1930s, (just as Ahmadinajad of Iran and Assad of Syria are doing today,) because the Jews were legally buying back their lands ironically and flourishing in it.

Arab opposition to Jews was not based only on economic and social issues; it was colored by the traditional Muslim vision of the Jews as second class citizens. All these was before the creation of Israel in 1948, so that conclusion above is obtuse. When we see young boys throwing stones on TV at armed Israeli soldiers, the sympathy is emotionally for the children, but what you don't see on TV is that behind the "boys with stones" are "adult men and women with AK47 and Katyusha rockets" who are the real aggressors.
I  have listed some references below. These are not spurious websites with religious coloration but books that are products of academic researches and government papers from both sides of the divide through which you can trace and get an understanding of the root of the conflict.

References:
1) A.D. Gordon, "Our Tasks Ahead" 1920
2) "Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War", London: Oxford University Press, 1985.
3) "Land, Labor and the Origins of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict", 1882–1914, University of California Press, 1996
4) The BALFOUR Declaration
5) League of Nations Mandate
6) Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, Knopf 1999.
7) Mandel, Neville, "The Arabs and Palestine", UCLA, 1976
8 ) The Passfield White Paper
9) The Arab Revolt of 1936
10) The Macdonald White Paper of 1939
11) British Peel and Woodhead Commissions Report
12) UN Debate on Palestine Partition- November, 26, 1947

Havila:

@All ,
Using every standard definition of 'objectivity' known; going by the listed quotations above, is it appropriate to think the author is being "objective" and not influenced by his/her own preconceived notion or "faith"? No!. Simply look at the few highlighted portions in the quotations above and you can see obvious 'oxymorons' like "democratically overthrow"; as well as 'prejudicial statements' like "pretending to be Christians", "non-islamic peoples" etc

Bravo Havila. Brilliant point and cleary put. It's not the first time such people have tried in vain to appear "Neutral". As you have demonstrated, people can easily see through the cherade.

The gospel according to Afam:

The problem with discussing these issues with the seriousness and objectivity they require is that many are often blinded by certain mindsets and hidden hate filled ideologies that is usually masked by pretending to be christains while supporting oppression, injustices, killing of innocent people etc.

Meaning: No one else is objective and serious on discussing these issues except ME, Afam.  I am the only one able to see clearly into and I can even see into the hearts of those who oppose my stand.  I can see that thses Christians are so blinded by hate that they support the killing and oppression of innocent people (By which I mean Palestinians.  I am persuaded that Jews can never be innocent).

The gospel according to Afam:

Even some Americans attended the conference, the spiritual leader of the KKK and other non islamic people.

Meaning: As long as a few Americans, the KKK and other interest groups attended the conference denying a historical fact, then we must believe they are right.  In any case, the outcome will not favour the Jews, so who cares what they arrive at.

The gospel according to Afam:

Sunnis and christains formed an alliance in the days of Saddam, today Sunnis and Christains are doing the same in Lebanon where they have indeed sided with the Hezbollah to democratically overthrow the government of Lebanon

that is backed by the West.

Meaning:  I am still trying to make a point here.  I hope I end up confusing you on these issues as I am.

The gospel according to Afam:

Christains live in Iraq, Christains live in Lebanon, Christains live in Palestine, Muslims live in Israel. So, who is fighting who? Who hates who?

Meaning Since some are so bold as to deny the Holocaust, permit me to deny the fact that the Arabs were the once that attacked Isreal first in 1948 when they wouldn't go by the UN resolution.  Based on this premise, we can conclude that only Isreal is in the habit of breaking the sacred UN resolutions.  This way, I will not be seen as a hypocrite.

The gospel according to Afam:

These are questions that one must honestly answer before engaging in discussions like these but unfortunately, simplistic opinions like all muslims are terrorists, the arabs does not want Israel to exist etc are being conveniently canvassed by the ill informed.

Meaning As the sole depository of information and historical facts, any contrary opinion to mine must be considered ill-informed.  Infact, any one who opposes my stand must be regarded as a muslim-hater.  Please never mind what Ahmadinajad and his hero Khomeni said about wiping Isreal off the map, it was just a slip of the tongue.  I would have sited the fact that the Arabs so love the Isrealis that they willingly lost the 1948 war, but then, we have agreed that the war never took place.

The gospel according to Afam:

The president of Iran is one of the most intelligent presidents I have heard or seen on TV discussing issues whether technical, religious or political with real confidence and without seeking help from his aides before answering questions.  Even though the call for the destruction of the state of Israel is an improper statement since it means the destruction of everyone in Israel today. I do not believe in the death of any innocent person regardless of the person's race.

Meaning Infact I so applaud the intellectual prowess of Ahmedinajad, that his decision to bar Professors from Universities and replace them with Clerics is a concept I plan to introduce into Nigeria.  Ahmed Sani of Zamfara hasn't done enough.  Not to sound politically incorrect, I have rightly tagged his call for Genocide as an improper statement.

The gospel according to Afam:

Israel has been going against UN's resolutions since time immemorial, the UN has consistently vetoed sanctions or resolutions that comes up at the UN when such resolutions do not favour Israel.

Meaning These sole action of Isreal cannot be justified though the Arabs were the first to break such resolution in 1948.  Besides, why should the U.S. always veto such resolutions when it rightly gives the Arabs what they want while trampling on the legitimate desires of Isreal?

The gospel according to Afam:

The world needs to focus on the real issues and find a lasting solution to the middle east problem, funny enough many Western nations do not want to tackle the problem head on even though they know where the problem lies.

Meaning In order words, instead of issuing an "improper statement", the world needs to carry out an "improper action" - Send Isreal into the sea, never mind the fact that historically the land has been Jewish.

The gospel according to Afam:

If the late Arafat (the symbol of the Palestinian struggle when he was alive) could marry a christain and still allowed her to baptize their child in the church, allowed her to still attend mass, hung pictures of Jesus Christ in his home, one begins to wonder if their is any truth in the often cited hatred of the muslims against the non muslims or if certain powers are bent on creating this divide so that their selfish aims and objectives will be met.

Meaning Indeed, Suha Arafat is my epitome of who a Christian should be.  She is so Christian that she publicly declares she hates Jews (her supposedly Lord's brothers), and she will have no greater honour than to have her kids enrolled as suicide bombers to kill Isrealites.  I intentionally left out the fact that though she was raised as a Christian, she converted to Islam.  Besides, what has that got to do with anything.  She hates Jews and that puts her in good company of people like my hero, Ahmedinajad.

The gospel according to Afam:

Ultimately, we can never have peace unless their is justice and speaking of justice, in the middle east today there are a lot of injustices metted out against the poeple of Palestine and until these issues are addressed, nothing concrete will come out of any arrangements to force people to be peaceful.

Meaning  I have always declared that I believe in justice.  Justice for the Palestinians and none for the Isrealis.  The only way to achieve peace is by giving the Palestinians what they want and tell Isreal to go into the sea.  At least, that is where they have lived all their lives even in the days of Christ.

Afam:

@Chidichris & Zexyworm,

1. The problem with discussing these issues with the seriousness and objectivity they require is that many are often blinded by certain mindsets and hidden hate filled ideologies that is usually masked by pretending to be christains while supporting oppression, injustices, killing of innocent people etc.

2. Even some Americans attended the conference, the spiritual leader of the KKK and other non islamic people.

3. Sunnis and christains formed an alliance in the days of Saddam, today Sunnis and Christains are doing the same in Lebanon where they have indeed sided with the Hezbollah to democratically overthrow the government of Lebanon that is backed by the West.

4. So, who is fighting who? Who hates who? These are questions that one must honestly answer before engaging in discussions like these but unfortunately, simplistic opinions like all muslims are terrorists, the arabs does not want Israel to exist etc are being conveniently canvassed by the ill informed.

5. The president of Iran is one of the most intelligent presidents I have heard or seen on TV discussing issues whether technical, religious or political with real confidence and without seeking help from his aides before answering questions.

6. Even though the call for the destruction of the state of Israel is an improper statement since it means the destruction of everyone in Israel today. I do not believe in the death of any innocent person regardless of the person's race.

7. Israel has been going against UN's resolutions since time immemorial, the UN has consistently vetoed sanctions or resolutions that comes up at the UN when such resolutions do not favour Israel.

8. The world needs to focus on the real issues and find a lasting solution to the middle east problem, funny enough many Western nations do not want to tackle the problem head on even though they know where the problem lies.

1. The problem with discussing these issues with the "seriousness and objectivity" they require is that many are often blinded by certain mindsets and hidden hate filled ideologies that is usually masked by political correctness, passivity and religious bias while condoning oppression and justifying killing of innocent jews on spurious allegations of Isreali disdain for UN resolutions.
Such individuals destroy whatever attempt at "serious and objective" discussion by using personal insults to force their irrelevant and ignorant oppinions on others in the name of debate.

2. This is a tacit recognition that the conference was mainly a religiously motivated attack on the Isreali nation. However, the author of the post ridiculously attempts to lend his puerile argument some form of "credibility" by including well known racists and non-muslim anti-semitists (who do not refer to themselves as christians) as part of the conference.

3. The so-called "alliance" between sunnis (hezbollah) and christians in Lebanon is nothing more than a marriage of convenience. Hezbollah is attempting to use the christian "alliance" to gain popular support to remove the present pro-western government in order to install a puppet for Syria and Iran!

4. It is quite clear except to the intellectually blind that the REAL war is not one about Palestine but a religious war to root out the Jews from their ancestral lands. This same nations presently pretending to be agitating for a Palestinian nation have palestinian refugees in their own countries they have refused to resettle whereas the Isrealis have since made their own Palestinian refugees full citizens. Where were these nations when the West witheld aid from Hamas?

5. It is naive for this author to make such sweeping generalisations on Ahmedinajad based on a few seconds of news clips on CNN. Quite clearly Ahmedinajad has never appeared on Nigerian TV, one wonders how this author saw or heard ahmedinajad on TV to be able to regard him as an intelligent leader. For the leader of a nation that hangs 16 yr old children for "crimes" against chastity, muzzles the free press, sacks university lecturers for being too liberal, endorses the sexual abuse of babies and remains a significant support for terrorist groups!
Ahmedinejad does not need help from aides to answer questions about his hatred for Isreal or the USA, 5 yr old Iranian children are being trained to do just that!

6.It is amazing how Isreal is vilified for defending herself against aggression from terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas, is accused of killing innocent civilians and yet a call for the destruction of the state of Isreal by Ahmedinajad is merely treated as an improper statement. What if Ehud Olmert had threatened to destroy Iran? would we all merely be accusing him of making improper statements? While the author pretends to be on the side of justice by claiming he does not believe in the death of any "innocent" preson regardless of race, it is clear that muslims led by ahmedinajad take it as a religious duty to wipe out the Jewish race! Unfortunately, the Isreal-Hizballah conflict has helped us redefine the real meaning of "innocent civilians" - it is clear the phrase does not apply to Jews!

7. Is this the same UN that has remained a lame duck in tackling the crisis in Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia? While the UN cries herself hoarse over the "unilateral"decision of the US to go to war in Iraq, thousands of women and children are being slaughtered daily in Darfur! Of what use have the UN resolutions been to the thousands of Darfur refugees? Is this the same UN that kept giving vital military information to hizballah during the Isreali-Lebanon conflict?
Is this the same UN that have failed to provide adequate protection for Isreali citizens, has failed to call Ahmedinajad to order over his constant claims to wipe Isreal off the map and refuses to do anything about rockets with ball bearings being fired at defenceless Isrealis? Was this the same UN that could not muster enough UN troops to patrol the Isreal-Lebanon border? Is this the same UN that caved in to Syrian demands not to patrol its border with Lebanon so as to ensure continuous supply of weapons to hizballah?
This same UN is the one we are supposed to take its "resolutions" sacrosant?

8. In the minds of islamic jihadists, the real "solution" to the self inflicted middle east crisis is to completely wipe out the Jewish race and then start an agitation to wipe out the civilised world! Unfortunately when the western nations decide to face "real issues" (as defined by politically correct hypocrites), they are roundly accused of "unilateral" decisions! Funny enough, this same individuals do not seem to see ahmedinejads "improper" statements as real issues, they would rather chase shadows accusing Isreal of non-existent violations of UN resolutions that are also do not seem to be binding on her enemies!

davidylan:

3. The so-called "alliance" between sunnis correction - this should be Shites (hezbollah) and christians in Lebanon is nothing more than a marriage of convenience. Hezbollah is attempting to use the christian "alliance" to gain popular support to remove the present pro-western government in order to install a puppet for Syria and Iran!

To further clarify, the christains in support of the hezbolla demonstration (with the support of Syria and Iran) are not a majority of Lebanese christains. The government enjoys the support of Christians, Druze, and Sunnis in Lebanon. Along with the US and Europe.
Try as hezbolla have done to try to paint the predominately Shite demonstartion as a coliation of all Lebanese, they fail as badly as the US has done in trying to paint the forces invovled in the invasion of Iraq as a coliation.

@ Mariory,

Thanks for the correction.

Where were present day Isrealis before some white people in the comfort of their homes decided it will be a good idea to take away Palestinian land and give it to Jewish people?

I liken the plight of the Palestines to taking away my father's land and giving it to some AA's on the basis of justice by some whites trying to cover their asses. It doesn't make sense, Jews have been driven from that land for hundreds of years, they really have no legitimate claim to it. Personally, I do not care but I wonder how many people running their mouths here (Davidylan) will give up their father's land to African Americans if for some reason Americans decide it's time for them to go back home.

It's the same people like Davidylan who will criticize Robert Mugabe for taking away white people's land in Zimbabwe and giving it to black farmers. Or wouldn't you?

@ Donzman

I only restrained myself from telling you to shut up!

Why did you pick on Davidylan? Am i saying anything different from what others have already said or alluded to?

Back to your post!

Donzman:

Where were present day Isrealis before some white people in the comfort of their homes decided it will be a good idea to take away Palestinian land and give it to Jewish people?

Nice question! The Isrealis where scattered around the world in AD70 when Isreal was conquered by the invading Titus army and Jerusalem burnt down! Which white people gave the land back to Isreal? The Jews simply returned to their land and reclaimed it, stop regurgitating popular Islamofascist falsehood!

Donzman:

I liken the plight of the Palestines to taking away my father's land and giving it to some AA's on the basis of justice by some whites trying to cover their asses. It doesn't make sense, Jews have been driven from that land for hundreds of years, they really have no legitimate claim to it. Personally, I do not care but I wonder how many people running their mouths here (Davidylan) will give up their father's land to African Americans if for some reason Americans decide it's time for them to go back home.

What are their fellow Arab brothers doing about the "plight" of the palestinians? Are palestinians not mere pawns used in the political chess game by arab states to attempt to carry out their religious obligation, the destruction of Isreal?
You shot yourself in the foot by rightfully asserting that Jews were driven from that land hundreds of yrs ago (Jewish ancestral land that arabs now lay laim to!). Now why do you think they no longer have any legitimate right to reclaim the land? Why do you think the world court decided to return Bakassi to Cameroun? Would you agree that Cameroun now has no legitimate right to reclaim Bakassi since in your warped judgement, Nigerians had been living there ever since?

There is no correlation btw the Jews and the African Americans, the Jews were not sold as slaves and history rightfully regards them as owners of the Jewish lands! Unless the African American can conclusively prove that my fathers land was once rightfully his, why should i give it up?

Donzman:

It's the same people like Davidylan who will criticize Robert Mugabe for taking away white people's land in Zimbabwe and giving it to black farmers. Or wouldn't you?

I support 100% Mugabe's taking land away from white farmers! Stop saying nonsense there!

@Davidylan

How can you honestly say anyone holds any legitimate claim to land after being off it for almost 2000 years?, How long do you have to off a land for your claim to it to become invalid?

There is no correlation between the Jews and the African Americans, the Jews were not sold as slaves and history rightfully regards them as owners of the Jewish lands! Unless the African American can conclusively prove that my fathers land was once rightfully his, why should i give it up?

Where is this history you speak of?, The same history that tells us that they were invaded and their land occupied for close to 2000 years. If that history is what I'm going to go by, my conclusion is that Jews hold no legitimate claim to that land. The issue even becomes complicated when you take into account the fact that most of the guys claiming to be jews are more European than the next English man.

You're right the AA's should not be compared to Jews. The AA's have been off their land for a mere 300 years which gives them even more legitimate claim to any land in Africa. What claim does the Jewish man have that the land he took from an Arab is his?, How is the Jewish man's claim any more legitimate than the AA's?, Do they have their family names inscribed on the land? The Jewish claim to Israel isn't anymore legit. than the AA's claim to any land in West/Central/South Africa. The only claim the Jews have is that they occupied this piece of land about 2000 years ago. AA's only claim is that they lived somewhere around here about 300 years ago. Whose claim is more legitimate again?

1800 years is too long a time to bear any legitimate claim to any land and it is even complicated when you take into account that most people who claim to be Jewish are more European than Middle-Eastern genetically. If the Jews have a legitimate claim to Palestinian land then any AA has a legitimate claim to your father's land, undisputable. I personally do not think anyone has a claim to my father's land, that gives you an idea of what I think concerning the middle east.

@ Donzman

You have said nothing to prove your point. Your single point is that since the jews have been off THEIR (note!) land for 1800 yrs, they no longer have any right to such land!

But wait, for how long was Bakassi a part of Nigeria before Cameroun took us to court over it? Wont you say Cameroun had forfeited that land since it had been Nigerian territory for so long and the people already considered themselves Nigerian?

By what theory do you propose that Isrealis MUST genetically be similar to Arabs of middle eastern origin? What of the North Africans that are as white as the Frenchman or the German? Do we assume that we can no longer regard them as legitimate Africans?

As for the history of the jews, it is all there in black and white for you to read if you would be sincere enough to search! But unfortunately as is usual for those who would rather argue in the blind, you will choose to assume that history does not exist.

By what theory do you propose that Isrealis MUST genetically be similar to Arabs of middle eastern origin? What of the North Africans that are as white as the Frenchman or the German? Do we assume that we can no longer regard them as legitimate Africans?

You might want to take a look at North Africans and the Frenchmen again, the average North African is definitely not as white as the average Englishman. You have no point there, try again! What do they have to do with this argument anyway?, Being African does not equal being black. Scientists have a good idea of what Jewish people looked like prior to the current breed of Europeans. They look very much like Arabs and there are still some Jewish people who look like that today. I have a Jewish professor here who is visiting from University of Jerusalem, at first sight you would have sworn he was Arab. Arabs and Jews are brothers and Europeans differ significantly from them.

As for the history of the jews, it is all there in black and white for you to read if you would be sincere enough to search! But unfortunately as is usual for those who would rather argue in the blind, you will choose to assume that history does not exist.

I never told you that history didn't exist. History is there for us all to read and in my opinion, when you're off a land for 1,800 years then you have no right to displace to current inhabitants.

But wait, for how long was Bakassi a part of Nigeria before Cameroun took us to court over it?

I still do not understand why the ICJ ruled that Bakassi belonged to Cameroun when the majority of inhabitants are Nigerians. Even at that, Bakassi wasn't a part of Nigeria for anything close to 1000 years talk less 1,800.

@ Donzman

Keep shifting the goalposts each time, you only end up shooting yourself in the foot! So all that is required to lose all rights to my land is to leave it for 1800 yrs?

Donzman:

You might want to take a look at North Africans and the Frenchmen again, the average North African is definitely not as white as the average Englishman. You have no point there, try again! What do they have to do with this argument anyway?, Being African does not equal being black. Scientists have a good idea of what Jewish people looked like prior to the current breed of Europeans. They look very much like Arabs and there are still some Jewish people who look like that today. I have a Jewish professor here who is visiting from University of Jerusalem, at first sight you would have sworn he was Arab. Arabs and Jews are brothers and Europeans differ significantly from them.

If being African does not mean being black, then why must being Jewish equal being Arab-looking?
Which scientists are you refering to here? Proof please?

davidylan:

If being African does not mean being black, then why must being Jewish equal being Arab-looking?

Because Arabs and Jews are "brothers". The people who occupied present day Israel before the Jews were driven out looked Arab. For you to claim back to land, you have to look like them somehow atleast to make the claim somewhat reasonable.

Donzman:

Because Arabs and Jews are "brothers". The people who occupied present day Israel before the Jews were driven out looked Arab. For you to claim back to land, you have to look like them somehow atleast to make the claim somewhat reasonable.

At least we are agreed on one thing, the Jews are the ancestral owners of the present day Isreal! We agree they were driven out at one point in history.

Now the new twist you add is that they suddenly lose all rights to their land because:

a. they left it over 1800 yrs ago so no longer have a right to reclaim it from usurpers - how come arabs who were never owners of a land that had belonged to jews for more than 4000 yrs suddenly have more claims over the land?

b. the "present day jews" do not resemble the ancient jews. - How did the ancient jewish traditions along with the torah survive if the present day jews are merely Europeans from other parts of the world?

davidylan:

At least we are agreed on one thing, the Jews are the ancestral owners of the present day Isreal! We agree they were driven out at one point in history.

Now the new twist you add is that they suddenly lose all rights to their land because:

a. they left it over 1800 years ago so no longer have a right to reclaim it from usurpers - how come arabs who were never owners of a land that had belonged to jews for more than 4000 years suddenly have more claims over the land?

b. the "present day jews" do not resemble the ancient jews. - How did the ancient jewish traditions along with the torah survive if the present day jews are merely Europeans from other parts of the world?

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/12/6769.pdf for a study on the genetic make-up of current Jews vs. other middle easterners.

Ok, first off, you're acting like Jews dropped out of heaven and landed on this "ancestral land". Weren't there people on those lands before the Jews conquered them and started occupying it?, What suddenly makes that land the Jews' but not those they drove out to occupy it at first. Like I said, the ones the Jews drove out to occupy the land do not have any right to it now and the Jews who were driven out for a long period of time do not have any right to it neither. The present (as of 1948) occupants atleast, have the right claim to it. You don't come back claiming land that was taking away from you for almost a millenium.

It might as well be the right thing to do but the moral of the story here is that I can understand why Palestinians are pissed. This is their ancestral land and suddenly people who you drove out almost 2000 years ago want it back, doesn't make sense.

Israelis AND Palestinians practice terrorism everyday. Both are terrorists and I would rather we didnt fund Israel (since we already do not fund Palestine already) and let both slug it out. That my tax dollars contribute to such nonsenses pisses me off.

Why david cares so much about the Israeli plight is beyond me. Add to the fact that most present day Israelis in Israel today are European jews who have been shown not to even be the descendants of the jews who lived on the land thousands of years ago (they where CONVERTED to Judaism much like most Christains of today where converted). Its like saying the Hausas of today have a claim to the land of Saudi Arabia. The European Jews of today are not the Jews that lived in present day Israel and Palestine thousands of years ago. And if they where a British Mandate doesnt make them carving up the land and creating a jewish state morally right just as carving up Africa to different nation states wasnt morrally right.

So all these argument back and forth justifies the PRESIDENT of the ISLAMIC republic of Iran to call for the state of Israel to be wiped off?

Like I always say we cannot reverse history or Indians would tell Americans of European origin and Blacks to leave their land since they took it from Indians forcefully.

Afam,
i like ur presentations and i would want you to go back to the life history of Arafat and the findings after his death, his financial history as linked to the french banks.
we have to be critical sometimes. from reliable sources, most of the leaders of the terrorist groups are drug barons and the best way to continue their business is the continued introduction of problems in different sections of the zone and give diverts the attentions of the authorities.
if u were current with the suicide bomb case that was mearnt to be carried out by a hsuband and wife of iraqi origins in a wedding ceremony in Jordan. the husband exploded but the wife became afriad and was later arrested.
according to the jordianian president, whose interest is a muslim protecting here in a wedding of a fellow muslim killing people who came to witness the wedding.
Abbas came into power after Arafat to try another way of resolving the isreali-palestine problem since war was not benefiting them, but what happened to the road map - the mergence of hamas.
since then how far has hamas gone with voilence?
suicide attacks on the westerners and their interests are daily activities. people encouraging people to kill themselves to inherit the kingdom of God. people fighting God'ss battle. why would someone advise me to die while he leaves.
the most unfortunate thing is that most of the leaders of these radical thoughts have western eductaion and the worst crime u can commit under them was to go for western education in their rulling places.
i have had time with most muslims and they will outrightly condem killing in any ramification. they will make u to understand that it is a very bad thing to destroy the handwork of Allah so i really do not know who is fighting who and whose interest we are fighting for.
the planners of 9-11 shld have thought of lives of different religions, political stands and nationalities. i don't want to believe anyone no matter religion will be happy to hear that his or her loved one died in the incident.
we are aware of world politics and fighting for economic powers but we pray that the wasting of lives shld stop no matter who is involved.
if we understand that we came to the world empty handed and so shall we return, we can allow people to exist where ever they are no matter their beliefs and religion.
white farmers were thrown out of Zimbabwe and today they are enjoying a safer heaven in Nigeria with the obj led administration praying the banks to encourage them through loans and who is saying food will not surplus in nigeria then go and see how hunger have destroyed Zimbabwe with all those lands laying waste.
where ever we find ourselves let us be relaxed and make their our home because it is a transit as one is sure to leave the scene and for msulims 24 hrs after death so while all fighting wealth and lands and other things.
Mugabe brought up a fight against the wests and many gave him surport but today he has refused south africa aid to the dying citizens of zimbabwe which makes one to think what is his interest.

@Havila,

I can see the objectivity in your posts so clearly that I am almost going blind.

By the way I am a practicing christain, not a pretender neither am I a religious bigot who preach hatred under the guise of supporting Israel blindly.

On the president of Iran, I still repeat that he is the most intelligent president I have seen on TV granting interviews, answering questions whether technical, religous or political.


@TayoD,

You have been so so wrong on so many issues on this forum, sometimes, when you are presented with overwhelming facts, you abandon the thread and wait for Afam to write something you will hold one to.

By the way, the meanings you attributed to specific portions of my write up are yours and you have the right to interprete anything the way you like. But again you have still introduced incorrect statements and conclusions which isn't new by the way.

@David Adenuga & Mariory,

I guess I have given you people a reason to post more than one or two lines on a thread here.


@Chidichris,

That Arafat was corrupt did not take away his position while alive. Infact, the Hamas won a free and fair election in Palestine mainly because the people of palestine saw in the PLO a corrupt government while Hamas got involved in community projects, even sponsoring weddings for people who needed to marry but couldn't afford to finance their weddings.

Did Hamas shoot their way to power? No. They were elected by the people of Palestine, isn't that what democracy is all about?

My dear, I have a lot of muslim friends and my head is still intact. I still play football and sometimes I am asked to pray before we play match even though over 80% of them are muslims and they actually join in sharing the Grace and the Lord's prayer.

You tend to forget that when people are deprived of their dignity that there's no limit to what they can do to fight back including killing themselves in what they believed in.

Personally, I will rather die fighting for what I believe in that swallow a whole lot of rubbish all in the name of trying to stay alive. Sometimes, you are better off dead than alive.

On interests, yes I agree that many fight even though its never clear what their real motives are. Have you not heard that old men take decisions to go to wars while young men are sent out to do the actual fighting.

Have you wondered why propsperous arab nations like Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE are not in the forefront of jihad? When the average person is not being stripped of his dignity then such a person can easily try to survive without feeling humiliated or deprived.


@Donzman,

Trying to explain anything to David is like pouring water on a rock and expecting it to melt. The 22 yr old is still enjoying scholarship so still sees everything in 2 dimensions.

When we see a bad referee officiating a match we console ourselves with the fact that the referee can not possibly do more than what he knows, so there is a limit to what one can understand.

@Donzman,

Where were present day Isrealis before some white people in the comfort of their homes decided it will be a good idea to take away Palestinian land and give it to Jewish people?

The Isrealis were scattered all over the world and some of them still remained in Isreal.  So technically, they never completely abandoned that land. The desire of the Jews to return to their land dates as far back as the Babylonian captivity a few hundred years BC.  The desire became stronger after the destruction of Jerusalem and subsequent exile of more Jews in AD 70.  The whole world knew of the Jewish desire to have their land back and those Egyptians (like Arafat) and other Arabs knew the land belongs to Isreal.   The means to achieving their desire was handed to them by no less than the United Nations.

I liken the plight of the Palestines to taking away my father's land and giving it to some AA's on the basis of justice by some whites trying to cover their asses. It doesn't make sense, Jews have been driven from that land for hundreds of years, they really have no legitimate claim to it. Personally, I do not care but I wonder how many people running their mouths here (Davidylan) will give up their father's land to African Americans if for some reason Americans decide it's time for them to go back home.
It's the same people like Davidylan who will criticize Robert Mugabe for taking away white people's land in Zimbabwe and giving it to black farmers. Or wouldn't you?

At least you acknowledge the fact that they were driven from that land.  Had they given it up through freewill or sold it to others, then they absolutely have no case.  You are making an argument for the Palestines that is rightly meant for the Jews.  It is the Jews that are being asked to give up their father's land for the Arabs.  Isreal was ready for a 2 state solution but their Arab neighbours felt they could wipe them out in a military sweep in 1948.  Unfortunately for them, they lost the war and are still losing it.  The Arabs have always been the aggressors, though the weaker ones.

"We did not join this movement to become ministers but rather to become martyrs." - Ismail Haniya, Palestinian Prime Minister. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6183409.stm


I guess the quote above goes to show the true position of these Arabs. If the only reason why they are in politics is to kill the Jews, one will not be too far off to assume their aim of claiming sole right to a land that isn't theirs historically, is for the same purpose. These guys do not believe in peace for Isreal and that is why Ahmedinajad couldn't hold his evil thoughts in. Isreal has my full support to do whatever they have to do to stay alive.

Afam:

@David Adenuga & Mariory,

I guess I have given you people a reason to post more than one or two lines on a thread here.

Take your foot out of your mouth. I have no idea what gave you the impression your misinformation is any where as important as you think it is. I no longer have time to keep proving wrong the 100+ lines of nonsense you post on this subject and seem to think constitues intelligent posts.

For others interested please see the Israel vs Hezbollah thread.

We can see the usual apologists for anti-semitism lining up under the banner of objectivity.

On a thread that deals with the apallingly racist agenda being pursued by the cretin,Ahmedinajad,instead of an
unequivocal condemnation,we get the usual cocktail of hubris and obtuse rationalisation of racism and bigotry.

The problem of the Palestinian/Isreali conflict is not helped by the existence on both sides,of religious bigots and racists,but this problem is particularly acute on the Palestinian side.We have in Palestine,the Hamas led Govt,which sees it as a religious duty to remove all infidels from Moslem land .How is Isreal supposed to come to peace with the Palestinian people when the Palestinans have in power, an organisation committed to the destruction of Isreal.

Make no mistake,Palestine is not the only place that is victim to a land dispute.Does anyone remember Tibet in China.When was the last time u heard about a suicide bombing by Tibetans .

The Palestinians are living with the consequences of their failed attempt at a second holocaust of the Jews in 1948.

For a people who have suddenly discovered an attraction to observing UN Resolutions,they should have observed the League of Nations Mandate passed on July 24 1922 or UN Resolution 181 of 1947.

Had they done that they would not be in the present mess.Instead they thought they could use military might,having woefully failed in that they are soliciting pity.Well it is too late.They like every human being on earth have to live with the consequences of the choices that they make in life.

In other to obtain a just and peaceful settlement to the conflict,the Palestinians have to rid themselves of the lunatic elements in their midst of which the likes of Ahmedinajad encourage.It was this loony type of thinking that put them in their present predicament.Only by so doing,can they acheive lasting peace.

Cretins like Ahmedinajad and their conferences don't help the Palestinian cause

@All,
That was a brillinat post from 4Play. I have been trying to add to the comment but everytime I pick the keyboard, I kind of felt weigh-down by the recent political developments in my own Nigeria where it appears obvious that another bunch of looters, fake PhD degree holders, contractors and glorified market men are going to take over in 2007; with credible and dynamic young men loosing out in the power game. It then pushes the Palestine/Isreal issue out of my mind, I just get tired. Seriously!!

@Mr "Objective"
Going by the number of peoples you needed to reply and abuse one way or the other in one 'single' post, you are obviously living in your own little "objective" world where white appears black. Check it out:

Afam:

(1) @Havila,

I can see the objectivity in your posts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

(2) @TayoD,

You have been so so wrong on so many issues on this forum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

(3) @David Adenuga & Mariory,

I guess I have given you people a reason to post more than one,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

(4) @Chidichris,

That Arafat was corrupt did not take,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

(5) @Donzman,

Trying to explain anything to David is like pouring water,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Afam or do i call u mr. objective,
i really wanted to keep religion out of it but since u have mentioned your religion, i want to be straight to u here that u are neither a christain nor a muslim.
if you go by what u claim, u should be able to relate ur religion to the existance of isreal and their relationship with the land in question.
what and how do u judge an intellegent man? what is the difference between intelligence and smart as a criminal.
do you know how clever Hamza Mustapha was or how intellegently he presented himself during the oputa panel.
many criminals how that cleverness in them that before u ask them questions, they will keep their answers down before u finish.
by the way, do u know that Iran is not among the arabs. the worst thing u can call an iranian is an arab. they preffered to be addressed as persians and while saddam reigns he said his uncle made him to understand that The Jews, the persians and the dog are three things not worthy to exist on the surface of the earth.
do u believe that the core arabs like Saudi, bahrain, Kuwait, Jordan, UAE, yemen, qatar, oman try as much as possible to distance themselves from hezeboulah and hamas.
do u know the that your intelligent iran president is doing nothing but trying to introduce islamic radicals on seat of power all over the place and beside other issues present leaders in the zone sees him as a threat to their own position.
what we preach is peace because in times of war no one knows who goes down first.
in your words you preffered dying for a course to living but the big question here is, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU DIED? or are u saying in you whole life u never had a course to pursue.
since u survive by insulting people whose posts go contrary to urs, i have a reason here to say u are fake as ur type will run to lagos whenever there is problem in east and back to east whenever u sense any little problem in lagos yet u preach death.
as a christain, u were not thought that taking away life is one of the sins against God.
what we are saying is since the war has been there without a result why don't they try peace. why can't they continue with the moves of Abbas whose short tenure mark the lowest rate of casualties on both sides.
where they believe in war, i still believe isreal in equal to the task.