The old Buddhist Monk lay dying in his dark tent.

It was a rainy night and the clouds had gathered into a thick sultry fog. . . the grumble of the thunder was light, and here and there the wind stole into the tent, an envoy of the angel of death, already biding his time by the old monk's mat. . .

The old man coughed. A dry, throaty rasp, as the last embers of life began to float slowly out of his bossom. Around him, his nervous family cringed, and muttered pointless words of encouragement. . .

The entrance to the tent parted, as Amber, the monk's youngest son entered. Amber was a full fifty years old now. . .

"Papa, you have a visitor, he hails from afar, he has come to pray. . .

Suddenly the thunder rose to a defeaning pitch, the wind became a race, and the old man seemed unsettled. . .

Lightening lit the tent in a ghastly hue. . .another fearful blast of thunder, and the Minister of God entered. . .

He seemed to be in frightening rage as he darted to the old monk. . . he held a large dark book in his hands and he seized the old man forcefully by the shoulders.

At this there was pandemonium in the tent. . . the family rose upon the minister, a struggle ensued and in the midst of a terrible rage the minister cried out his name -

"I am Noetic, you old man! This is your last chance, accept Jesus Christ now or you will rot away in hell! Accept him! Accept him!"

Presently the tumult died down, as the old man motioned his famility to release the minister.

Noetic heaved a huge sigh of relief, gasped for air and slumped beside the old man.

In a quiet serious voice he said -

"Sir, your soul is important to God. Please accept Jesus now, the time is short"

"Who is Jesus. . . " the Old Monk enquired. . .

"He is the Son of God. He is also God. He came to the earth a long time ago to die for your sins" sputtered the fatigued Minister. "You must accept him as your personal Lord and Saviour now, the time is at hand. . ."

"I don't understand. . ." the old man whispered.

Noetic suddenly rose in a temper fit for Belzebub. "Then you are damned!" he cried.

The old man seemed about to say something, but just then, the Angel cut the thread of life and lifted the gentle soul of Sidhartta Gautama to peace.


_{Oya, Noetic tell us why you insist that People who dont know of Jesus or accept him as lord must go to hell.}

Deepsight. , . quit ur day job. become a playwright. or some kinda job in the arts.

Krayola:

become a playwright. or some kinda job in the arts.

Deep Sight has a rare gift of communication.

I appreciate ur hunger for a healthy debate. I would however take my time in making this analyses.
ur question can be divided into five segments of people:

a. Those who lived before Christ and as such did not have the knowledge of Christ.

b. Those who lived after Christ and still did not hear of the gospel

c. Those who heard of the gospel and received it and backslide.

d. Those who heard the gospel, received it and remained saved.

e. Those who heard the gospel and rejected it.

The bible teaches us what awaits this group of people. Group A were judged in mathew 27:52-53.
The bible records that those who died in holiness in all generations were resurrected. The bible however does not list the criteria for holiness in this context. So while in the generation of moses we can say that the holy ones are those who obeyed the 613 commandments, In the generation of Abraham and other primordial antediluvian generations we can assume that the criteria for holiness was obedience God's inherent convictions disguised as morals. This is largely butressed by the story in Genesis 20.
we also understand that the descendants of Esau, the edomites were also given laws which the bible makes no record of . . . . . this as such is their own criteria for holiness

To all other generations that pre-date Jesus outside of this era, it is pertinent to state that holiness is a measure of their convictions as depicted in their conscience and widely acclaimed as moral values. moral values may vary from society to society, but the conscience is unique and constant.

For those in Group B. . . , brb

Noetic ? in a debate ? No i am signing out, the debate can never be objective.

Deap Sight, continue at your own risk.

NOETIC -

Yes, please carry on. . . i strongly appreciate your categorization of the different groups. . .

But if you don't mind, i would like you address youR category (e) in three groups -

 1. Those who heard, understood, and rejected it and

 2. Those who heard, but could not understand on account of belonging to a foreign culture or belief system

3. The nation of Jews, still practicing Judaism and still awaiting the Messiah even today

I am listening.

@Deep Sight

Your use of words and story telling is remarkable, you are definitely involved in the theatre arts, are you a practitioner in that field?
You do remind me of a very close friend of mine from my days in OAU.

You deserve a standing ovation for that intro Deep Sight Claps Hands Where did u learn to write like that?

@Deep Sight

Deep Sight:

  1. Those who heard, understood, and rejected it and

  2. Those who heard, but could not understand on account of belonging to a foreign culture or belief system

3. The nation of Jews, still practicing Judaism and still awaiting the Messiah even today

I love the way you have categorized this.  I have always been of the opinion that most people do not reject the gospel just for the sake of it. Most reject it because it simply doesn't make any sense to them at all.  Even for those who previously accepted (most likely by virtue of being born in that religion), I believe that they only reject on the basis that everything no longer made any sense to them anymore, most likely due to some personal experiences or some deep reflection, and not because they wish to be deliberately rebellious. I find it really ridiculous that anyone would seriously believe that anyone else that isn't an adherent of their own faith would have, as a reward, some negative post-death experience.

@Purist

It is called the carrot and stick approach. If you don't accept christ for the good things you will get then you may accept him because of the fear of the bad things that will happen to you if you don't.

banom:

Noetic ? in a debate ? No i am signing out, the debate can never be objective.

Deap Sight, continue at your own risk.

banom can u just get off my back?. . . . dont start stalking me like u do to tpia

Deep Sight:

NOETIC -

Yes, please carry on. . . i strongly appreciate your categorization of the different groups. . .

But if you don't mind, i would like you address youR category (e) in three groups -

 1. Those who heard, understood, and rejected it and

 2. Those who heard, but could not understand on account of belonging to a foreign culture or belief system

3. The nation of Jews, still practicing Judaism and still awaiting the Messiah even today

I am listening.

I will do that soon as I get to category e

Purist:

@Deep Sight

I love the way you have categorized this.  I have always been of the opinion that most people do not reject the gospel just for the sake of it. Most reject it because it simply doesn't make any sense to them at all.  Even for those who previously accepted (most likely by virtue of being born in that religion), I believe that they only reject on the basis that everything no longer made any sense to them anymore, most likely due to some personal experiences or some deep reflection, and not because they wish to be deliberately rebellious. I find it really ridiculous that anyone would seriously believe that anyone else that isn't an adherent of their own faith would have, as a reward, some negative post-death experience.

I will put the above in cognizance when analysing the said category.

Hi Noetic - Top of the day to you. Thank you also for accepting this interview. And also for the great categorizations.

Let me understand what you have said so far. Your Category A - People who lived before christ and therefore did not hear the gospel.

Is my understanding correct that you refer to this category as being taken care of by Christ's visit to the underworld, where he preached he gospel and made judgment?

. . . .Continued

Category B . . .  
To understand what awaits those in category B, one must understand the essential reward attached to the gospel of Christ. The crux of His reward was a place in eternity. . .which was a promise no one was ever given (as far as the bible and xtianity is concerned).
Prior to the coming of Jesus . .  . .if a man dies, his life is over. . .both the body spirit and soul go to the grave, . .suggesting that there is no human life as weknow it after death.
this is butressed by:
a. psalm 115:17-18 17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
      those who go down to silence; 18 it is we who extol the LORD, both now and forevermore.  Praise the LORD.
b. psalm 88: 11-12  Is your love declared in the grave,
      your faithfulness in Destruction ?  12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,  or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

It is deducible but debatable that the dead pre-Christ have no spiritual inheritance with God. The purpose of the gospel is to biuld a bridge between man and God o ensure that life does not end right here on this planet. That explains why
a. hell was not originally made for man. . .but for fallen angels.
b. The gift of eternal life CANNOT be obtained by works or self-righteousness. It is a Gift beyond comprehension that explains why it is obtained by grace and mercy.

Conclusively members of category B get the judged on the same basis of those in category A . .  , simply because they NEVER got to hear about the gospel. They were not aware that Christ came and died. They do not know of the promise of eternal life. . . .  That explain why the last earthycommand of Jesus was that the gospel be preached to all nations.

Deep Sight:

Hi Noetic - Top of the day to you. Thank you also for accepting this interview. And also for the great categorizations.

Let me understand what you have said so far. Your Category A - People who lived before christ and therefore did not hear the gospel.

Is my understanding correct that you refer to this category as being taken care of by Christ's visit to the underworld, where he preached he gospel and made judgment?

u are welcome.

And yes. . .ur understanding of category A, captures my analyses.

noetic15:

. . . .Continued

Category B . . .
To understand what awaits those in category B, one must understand the essential reward attached to the gospel of Christ. The crux of His reward was a place in eternity. . .which was a promise no one was ever given (as far as the bible and xtianity is concerned).
Prior to the coming of Jesus . . . .if a man dies, his life is over. . .both the body spirit and soul go to the grave, . .suggesting that there is no human life as weknow it after death.
this is butressed by:
a. psalm 115:17-18 17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
those who go down to silence; 18 it is we who extol the LORD, both now and forevermore. Praise the LORD.
b. psalm 88: 11-12 Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction ? 12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

It is deducible but debatable that the dead pre-Christ have no spiritual inheritance with God. The purpose of the gospel is to biuld a bridge between man and God o ensure that life does not end right here on this planet. That explains why
a. hell was not originally made for man. . .but for fallen angels.
b. The gift of eternal life CANNOT be obtained by works or self-righteousness. It is a Gift beyond comprehension that explains why it is obtained by grace and mercy.

Conclusively members of category B get the judged on the same basis of those in category A . . , simply because they NEVER got to hear about the gospel. They were not aware that Christ came and died. They do not know of the promise of eternal life. . . . That explain why the last earthycommand of Jesus was that the gospel be preached to all nations.

Thank you. Do i understand you to be saying that for Categories A & B, those who lived before him, and those who lived after him but never heard about him, judgment will rest in the measure of their moral "holiness" according to works?

Deep Sight:

Thank you. Do i understand you to be saying that for Categories A & B, those who lived before him, and those who lived after him but never heard about him, judgment will rest in the measure of their moral "holiness" according to works?

Yes. I hope u remeber that I specifically captured what the bible exemplifies as "holiness" in my first response?

This is fine by me so far.

But before we proceed, just a few posers.

1. In Category A - Those who lived before Christ - how come Elijah was taken up into heaven without any need for Christ going to Hades first? Also note that he appears with Moses beside Christ at the Transfiguration, thus showing that Moses, too was not "in Hades" or "in the Grave". Clearly these guys had been risen to eternal life even without the sacrifice on the cross.

2. Why would God have one rule for the goose and another for the gander? Is God not immutable, unchangeable, adamantine? Does the Bible not say that he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? That accords with his perfection, for that which is perfect cannot change? Why would he give different criteria for salvation at different times? Is that not something like shifting the goal post?

Deep Sight:

This is fine by me so far.

But before we proceed, just a few posers.

1. In Category A - Those who lived before Christ - how come Elijah was taken up into heaven without any need for Christ going to Hades first? Also note that he appears with Moses beside Christ at the Transfiguration, thus showing that Moses, too was not "in Hades" or "in the Grave". Clearly these guys had been risen to eternal life even without the sacrifice on the cross.

2. Why would God have one rule for the goose and another for the gander? Is God not immutable, unchangeable, adamantine? Does the Bible not say that he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? That accords with his perfection, for that which is perfect cannot change? Why would he give different criteria for salvation at different times? Is that not something like shifting the goal post?

Yes Deap Sight my man, continue firing him with those questions, how can unchangeable God keep changing and shifting the goal post where it will be convenient for him to score goal ?

Just wait for Noectic to come in now and tell you that he is God and he has the right to do any thing without being answerable to any one, and if you go further, to let him know the inconsistencies of his God, and or his in existence, he will ask you to prove that God does not exist and threaten you with hell Fireeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee if you fail to accept what he is saying.

lol funny intro

Deep Sight:

This is fine by me so far.

But before we proceed, just a few posers.

1. In Category A - Those who lived before Christ - how come Elijah was taken up into heaven without any need for Christ going to Hades first? Also note that he appears with Moses beside Christ at the Transfiguration, thus showing that Moses, too was not "in Hades" or "in the Grave". Clearly these guys had been risen to eternal life even without the sacrifice on the cross.

A. Jesus stated clearly in John 3:13 , . . . .that NO ONE has been to heaven except for Himself who descended from heaven.

B. For the prupose of this thread I will define heaven as THE ABODE OF GOD AND HIS HOLY ANGELS, WHERE JESUS ASCENDED TO.
Given this definition. . . . did Elijah ascend into heaven? . . . . .the answer is NO . . . . .why not? . . . .below are two reasons why Elijah or moses never saw heaven until Jesus resurrected.

reason 1: There are three kinds of heaven recorded in the bible. the first heaven is the heaven I defined above, where God resides. (hebrews 8:1, deuteronomy 26:15 and 2corinthians 12:2)
The second heaven recorded in the bible is the outer space. This refers to the planets, the sun, moon, stars (Genesis 26:4, psalm 8:3, deuteronomy 26:62, Isaiah 13:10, deuteronomy 1:10)
The third kind of heaven described in the bible is the sky and clouds above us, which we can visibly see. The sky where birds fly and rain drops from. Genesis 7:11-12 talks of windows of heaven opened for rain and flood. we know that rain drops after being formed in the atmosphere. . .this atmosphere is also called heaven in the bible.
The birds are also called birds of heaven (Jeremiah 16:14 and Job 35:11 paints a good picture) . . . . . those are the three kinds of heaven described in the bible.

reason2: when Elijah was taken away by the whirlwind . . . .several men (50) went out looking for him to ensure he was safe (2 kings 2:17). This shows that quite unlike our present belief, these people believed that Elijah was taken to a different place and not heaven, God's abode like we assume today.
Their belief is strengthened by the fact that Elijah eventually sends a letter to the reigning king of Israel many years after his whirlwind ascension (2 chronicles 21:12-15).
The king who recieved the letter was king Jehoram. Jehoram was the son of King Jehosaphat. Jehosaphat ruled during the life of Elisha's prophethood. . . . . that was after Elijah's ascension.
Are letters sent from heaven?. . , .Elijah was simply in the outer place in an unknown land, recorded as heaven.

3. The bible never recorded moses or Elijah descending from heaven on the mount of transfiguration. Considering the words of Jesus in john 3:13 . . . .they came from hades. . .the place of the dead.
The transfiguration as recorded in the bible (luke 9 and mathew 17) makes no mention of either Elijah or Moses descending from heaven.

2. Why would God have one rule for the goose and another for the gander? Is God not immutable, unchangeable, adamantine? Does the Bible not say that he is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? That accords with his perfection, for that which is perfect cannot change? Why would he give different criteria for salvation at different times? Is that not something like shifting the goal post?

where did u get that from?
Salvation was offered once to the living. . and that gospel is still being spread today.

Interesting arguments, Noetic, please continue, i am listening.

Who delivered the letter?

@Pastor AIO

Since you asked, we aren't told. We must thus assume it was delivered through the normal means - messengers - since it would have been stated if it were otherwise like the one said to have been delivered to John at Patmos.

manmustwac:

You deserve a standing ovation for that intro Deep Sight Claps Hands Where did u learn to write like that?  

Don't you know Deep Sight is a lawyer. . .he does this shit for a living. he once told me he specializes in election tribunals, representing Olusegun Mimiko last time around.

. .  . Category C: Those who heard the gospel, received it and backslide.

1. what does it mean to HEAR the gospel? . . . .This simply means hearing the good news of Jesus Christ, His gift of salvation. death, resurrection and eternal life. His redemption and forgiveness of sins, His promises associated to His divinity and the inherent LOVE He symbolises.

what does it mean to RECEIVE the gospel?. . . .This simply means accepting the gift of salvation of God through Christ Jesus, by acknowledging past sins and repenting of them. receiving the baptism by water and the HS baptism.
The most significant basis of receiving the gospel is largely to be saved. Salvation alone does not make one the Son of God. The main purpose of Christ coming is to make us God-like and live in eternity where there are no limitations. But salvation as described above does not give anyone that right. Believing and accepting the gospel does NOT make u the Son of God. . . .it only gives u the POWER (Holy Spirit) to become the son of God (John 1:12)

So how does one become the son of God? . . . . .simply by exercising the power given to u at the point of salvation. . . . . .Romans 8:14
simply put. .  .when u submit urself to the spirit of God, u become a Child of God. . .but u cannot get that spirit unless u first acknowledge the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

2.  what does it mean to backslide?. . . . .This simply happens when a person stops submitting themselves to the spirit. when they stop doing the will of God as commanded by His spirit. . they stop being a child of God. To backslide is to stop being for God which could also imply to stop believing in the gospel, to loose faith or hope in God through Christ Jesus, to rationally or dogmatically reject the gospel u have once received with a great heart. To stop being in fellowship with God. . . , stop being a Christ-like person as the spirit has always encouraged u to be. To backslide is simply to love the world. . . a world not of Christ.

3. What judgement awaits this people? . . . .Jesus clearly states that such men are NOT fit for the kingdom (luke 9:62). . ,  . .a biblical example of a backslider is Demas recorded in 2 timothy 4:10.

Conclusively those who belong to category C. . . . .will partake in HELL FIRE.

Category D:

Refers to those who hear the gospel, receive and remain saved. .  ,  . i.e they died as God's children whose name are in the book of life.
I have already analysed what it means to hear and receive the gospel. I also stated the basis of salvation and being a child of God,  . ,  . ,  to remain saved and die saved leads to all the rewards Christ promised notably is the God-like ability to live and dwell in eternity without any limitations.

What awaits this group of people?. .  . .The bible is very clear that what these people will inherit from God is beyond human imagination (1 corth2:9). . . .but the bible also telle us that they get. . , Eternal life, a crown of glory, a crown of righteousness, the privilege of seeing God,  the incorruptible crown, crown of rejoicing, crown of life, inheritance with God. .  . .an eternity at peace. (1 thes2:19, 2Tim4:8, 1peter5:4, 1Corth9:25, James1:12, revelation2:10 and several other verse)

Conclusively: this group of people inherit a place with God in eternity.

Hi noetic15,

Your submissions, so far, have been quite interesting.  However, I have some reservations.  Obviously, you got most of your points about the Elijah-Heaven explanation HERE.  That's not a problem at all, save that you didn't take enough time to cross-check some of the writer's points properly.

noetic15:

reason2: when Elijah was taken away by the whirlwind . . . .several men (50) went out looking for him to ensure he was safe (2 kings 2:17). This shows that quite unlike our present belief, these people believed that Elijah was taken to a different place and not heaven, God's abode like we assume today.

2 Kings does NOT allude to Elijah being "taken up" into another place, as you imply.  2 Kings 2:11 clearly states that he went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Check the usage of the word "heaven" in a greek or hebrew translation, and you'll realise it actually refers to God's abode in this context.  Those who were searching for Elijah, according to that passage, were obviously ignorant of Elijah's "divine journey", especially as they thought the whirlwind had literally blown him off to some mountain (2 Kings 2:16), hence their offer to help search for him.  Come to think of it, if the sons of the prophets really believed that Elijah was taken up into another kind of heaven, as opposed to God's abode, and as you and the writer would like to make us believe, then why would they have bothered to organize an exhaustive search for Elijah? (THREE whole days!)  Were they dumb?  Or are you, or the writer in anyway implying that the "mountain" or "valley" talked about in the passage, would pass for some other definition of heaven too?  In fact, the folly of this ridiculous assertion is further made evident by the fact that Elisha - who actually knew better - had told the 50 men to save their breath.  In another situation, we read of Jesus ascending into heaven too (Mark 19:16).  The composition of this statement, in the original hebrew or greek translation, is actually the same as that of the Elijah situation as well, only that this time, Jesus' sitting position in His new abode was emphasized.

noetic15:

Their belief is strengthened by the fact that Elijah eventually sends a letter to the reigning king of Israel many years after his whirlwind ascension (2 chronicles 21:12-15).

I hope you are not of the erroneous belief that the books of the Bible are arranged in a sequential chronoligical order?

For starters, the book of 2 Chronicles is a RECORD of events between the beginning of Solomon's reign (970 B.C.) and the beginning of Babylonian captivity (586 B.C.).  Interestingly, Elijah is described to have lived in the 9th century B.C. in the Kingdom of Israel during the reign of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, who ruled either between 869 B.C. and 850 B.C. or between 874 B.C and 853 B.C., depending on which scholarly historical analysis one follows.  Therefore, it is very wrong of you to assume that the events in 2 Chronicles, including Chapter 21, took place "many years" after Elijah's ascension.

noetic15:

The king who recieved the letter was king Jehoram. Jehoram was the son of King Jehosaphat. Jehosaphat ruled during the life of Elisha's prophethood. . . . . that was after Elijah's ascension.

There is no indication that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. We read at 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 that Jehoram became King of Judah two years before a different King Jehoram became king of Israel. It wasn't until the NEXT chapter at 2 Kings 2:11 (during the reign of this other King Jehoram of Israel) that we read of Elijah's ascension into heaven.

It is important to note that nowhere does the Bible give a specific year for Elijah's translation into heaven. We only know that it happened sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning two years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

2 Chronicles 21:19 notes that Jehoram of Judah began to experience the effects of the condemning words in Elijah's letter two years before he died in the eighth year of his reign, so it is reasonable to conclude that Elijah's letter and his subsequent translation to heaven occurred sometime between Jehoram of Judah's second to sixth year of reign.

Source: http://www.4witness.org/jwscripture/jw_2chron21_12.php#f2b

noetic15:

Are letters sent from heaven?. . , .Elijah was simply in the outer place in an unknown land, recorded as heaven.

Busted.

Purist:

Hi noetic15,

Your submissions, so far, have been quite interesting.  However, I have some reservations.  Obviously, you got most of your points about the Elijah-Heaven explanation HERE.  That's not a problem at all, save that you didn't take enough time to cross-check some of the writer's points properly.

Do me a favour, when ever u want to debate with me or address any issue I raise. . . always drop your pre-conceived notions. This is the second and last time I will tell u this.
I did not get my points from the link in question and I do not expect that u would falsely assert that.  ,  . ,  . though I do concede that I have read some of their (gnmagazine) books in the past.

2 Kings does NOT allude to Elijah being "taken up" into another place, as you imply.  2 Kings 2:11 clearly states that he went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Check the usage of the word "heaven" in a greek or hebrew translation, and you'll realise it actually refers to God's abode in this context.  Those who were searching for Elijah, according to that passage, were obviously ignorant of Elijah's "divine journey", especially as they thought the whirlwind had literally blown him off to some mountain (2 Kings 2:16), hence their offer to help search for him.  Come to think of it, if the sons of the prophets really believed that Elijah was taken up into another kind of heaven, as opposed to God's abode, and as you and the writer would like to make us believe, then why would they have bothered to organize a manhunt for Elijah?  Were they dumb?  Or are you, or the writer in anyway implying that the "mountain" or "valley" talked about in the passage, would pass for some other definition of heaven too?  In fact, the folly of this ridiculous assertion is further made evident by the fact that Elisha - who actually knew better - had told the 50 men to save their breath.  In another situation, we read of Jesus ascension into heaven too (Mark 19:16).  The composition of this statement, in the original hebrew or greek translation, is actually the same as that of the Elijah situation as well, only that this time, Jesus's sitting position in His new abode was emphasized.

1. Can u help me with the usage of the "heaven" word in greek and hebrew? what was the word used in this context. . .  , and how was it refering to the abode of God?

2. 2 kings 2:5 tells that the 50 men who eventually went to look for Elijah were prophets, who had received revelations from God about the "ascension" of Elijah. they told Elisha that Elijah was to be taken up. were they ignorant of Elijah's future? since they had heard from God, why would they go to seek for Elijah again when Elisha came back?
do u read the bible upside down?   

I hope you are not of the erroneous belief that the books of the Bible are arranged in a sequential chronoligical order?

For starters, the book of 2 Chronicles is a RECORD of events between the beginning of Solomon's reign (970 B.C.) and the beginning of Babylonian captivity (586 B.C.).  Interestingly, Elijah is described to have lived in the 9th century B.C. in the Kingdom of Israel during the reign of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, who ruled either between 869 B.C. and 850 B.C. or between 874 B.C and 853 B.C., depending on which scholarly historical analysis one follows.  Therefore, it is very wrong of you to assume that the events in 2 Chronicles, including Chapter 21, took place "many years" after Elijah's ascension.

where did I insinuate this?  can u fit a date to the events of 2 chronicles? . . .  .this would be appreciated.

There is no indication that Elijah went up to heaven before he sent the letter to King Jehoram of Judah. We read at 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 that Jehoram became King of Judah two years before a different King Jehoram became king of Israel. It wasn't until the NEXT chapter at 2 Kings 2:11 (during the reign of this other King Jehoram of Israel) that we read of Elijah's ascension into heaven.

It is important to note that nowhere does the Bible give a specific year for Elijah's translation into heaven. We only know that it happened sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning two years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

2 Chronicles 21:19 notes that Jehoram of Judah began to experience the effects of the condemning words in Elijah's letter two years before he died in the eighth year of his reign, so it is reasonable to conclude that Elijah's letter and his subsequent translation to heaven occurred sometime between Jehoram of Judah's second to sixth year of reign.

Source: http://www.4witness.org/jwscripture/jw_2chron21_12.php#f2b

Busted.

The rubbish above requires simple common sense and not rocket science.

1. do u know who king Jehosaphat is? was Elijah around during his reign?
If he wasnt. . ,  .how could he have been around during the reign of his son? did elijah and elisha experience prophethood at the same season?

its ok if u reply my posts. . . but try to think ur points through before pressing the reply button. . . .  , thank u.

Wow. . . noetic15 getting defensive?  That's funny.  I expected you to present a superior argument, not this ad hominem rebuttal.

noetic15:

Do me a favour, when ever u want to debate with me or address any issue I raise. . . always drop your pre-conceived notions.

Honestly, I have no idea what you mean when you say "pre-conceived notions".  What exactly does that mean and how does it apply to this discourse?

noetic15:

This is the second and last time I will tell u this.
I did not get my points from the link in question and I do not expect that u would falsely assert that. 

I'm really sorry for making unfounded assumptions about your post, though I believe anyone would easily commit the same error, considering the striking similarity between your post and the article - words almost verbatim, points presented almost in the same manner, scriptural references almost the same throughout.  Once again, I apologize.

noetic15:

1. Can u help me with the usage of the "heaven" word in greek and hebrew? what was the word used in this context. . .  , and how was it refering to the abode of God?

I'm really sorry, but I cannot help you.  Last time I checked, Google was still free.

noetic15:

2. 2 kings 2:5 tells that the 50 men who eventually went to look for Elijah were prophets, who had received revelations from God about the "ascension" of Elijah. they told Elisha that Elijah was to be taken up. were they ignorant of Elijah's future? since they had heard from God, why would they go to seek for Elijah again when Elisha came back?
do u read the bible upside down? 

Good you mentioned that.  So since they already knew that Elijah was going to be taken, why then did a whole FIFTY of them decide to still go search for him for THREE whole days?

noetic15:

where did I insinuate this?  can u fit a date to the events of 2 chronicles? . . .  .this would be appreciated.

Come on, noetic!  Don't be lazy.  You can easily verify all these by yourself.  Oh, and by the way, I didn't claim you insinuated anything.  I was actually hoping you weren't.
[center]

Purist:

I hope you are not of the erroneous belief that the books of the Bible are arranged in a sequential chronological order?

[/center]
       

noetic15:

The rubbish above requires simple common sense and not rocket science.

1. do u know who king Jehosaphat is? was Elijah around during his reign?
If he wasnt. . ,  .how could he have been around during the reign of his son? did elijah and elisha experience prophethood at the same season?

With this response, you just convinced me that you didn't bother to check the scriptural references presented to buttress the FACT that there are TWO Jehorams in the Bible.

noetic15:

its ok if u reply my posts. . . but try to use your brain before pressing the reply button. . . .  , thank u.

Okay.  Point taken.

@noetic15

noetic15:

I did not get my points from the link in question and I do not expect that u would falsely assert that. , . , . though I do concede that I have read some of their (gnmagazine) books in the past.

You just added this. Why did you modify your post?