davidylan:

Which is why you cant point to a single one of them in the last 2 days? You started this thread, why have you fled like the ignorant coward you truly are?

Deep Sight:

Thanks Noetic, i am still listening, but please do take some time out to address the verses i pointed out. Note that contrary to what you said, they are not "just one or two"  verses but more than 12! When we have that many clear references within scripture to Jesus not being God, then surely there is an issue to be discussed that goes beyond "twisting" the scripture, which David has accused me of.

Still listening. . .

I will also address your points. . .

Cheers.

noetic15:



1. The bible (Genesis 1) talks about Elohim making the heaven and earth. Elohim signifies plurality, indicating the presence of more than one being at the point of creation.
The bible starts by stating in its first verse that "in the beginning, ELOHIM created heaven and earth". The bible does not tell us how heaven was created, but I can deduce from this verse that both the heavens and the earth were created at a point in time called the "beginning". This implies that heaven did NOT precede the earth.
The implication of this verse is that there were beings (as described in human language) at the point of creation. This is because Elohim is a plural word. Since the heaven was not created at that point, who were the beings that were present at the point of creation? the bible answers this question itself.
In verse 2 the bible states that "the spirit of God was moving over the formless nature of the earth". who is the spirit of God? is He a person? or a being? . .  . The bible also provides answers. in john 1:12 . . . The bible calls this spirit the power of God given to believers at the point of salvation. The bible also calls those that are led by this spirit the sons of God (romans 8:14).
The implication of the above verses is that at the point of creation, one of the beings present called the holy spirit was not a person or a being but the POWER of God, The holy spirit is simply the POWER of God. what then is God without His power? what makes God, God without His power?
The bible proceeds further at the point of making man. . . .there was a conversation between the plural "beings" present . ,   . .one told the others to let us make man in our own image, the bible does not record any response from the others.

My submission on this events in Genesis one is that Jesus was part of the beings present, but just as we understand that the holy spirit (who was also present ) is not a being, person or figure but the power of God. . .this thread intends to unravel the personality of Jesus.
bear in mind that Jesus boldly asserts that He precedes the point in time called "beginning" (rev 22:13)

2. In john 8:58 Jesus said that "before Abraham was, I am". This statement is subject to several interpretations, but the reaction of the listeners is NOT subject to several interpretations. They picked up stones to stone Him to death. They accused Him of blasphemy.
The implication of this verse is that Jesus BOLDLY asserted to whoever cared to listen that He was/is GOD.

3. From two above one can state that Jesus appeared to the moses in the burning bush and was the one who confidently asserted that He was I AM that I AM.
in 1 corinthians 10:1-12 The bible offers cogent analysis into the ontological divinity of Jesus. the following are deductible from 1 corth 10:1-12
a.  Jesus followed the israelites from Egypt to the promised land (verse 4)
b. Jesus was the rock that was struck by moses which produced water (verse 4)
c. when the children of israel mumurred against God and tempted Him. . . . they were tempting Jesus (verse 9)

4. In john 3:13 implies that unlike any primordial being (including prophets) no man had gone into/outside heaven except for Himself who descended from it.

The implication of the above (3 and 4) is that Jesus preceded the earth, the patriarchs, prophets and all those we know of. it also implies that Jesus preceded the heavens and the earth (rev 22:13).

. . . . .brb

Deep Sight:

David, you are delivering a Master-class in Escapism! For Christ's sake, i quoted 12 verses for you in which the explicit and clear suggestion was made within the Bible that Jesus was not and is not, God. You are yet to address them!

David, I opened a thread for Noetic some time ago, asking him to explain why he thought only Christians would be "saved". Although he did not convince me, please visit that thread and see what a thorough, exhaustive, painstaking job he did in presenting his position, analysing the bible, and defending every article of his faith thereon.

See the link here - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-336988.0.html

I charge you to STOP the escapism and address ALL my verses. This thread was opened for you to educate me on the meaning of those verses, and it hardly helps if rather than do that, you simply bring your own verses and demand that I explain them (which I did not shy away from doing, by the way!).

This is a strange approach, because I am not the Christian here, you are. So why are you giving me verses to explain? You should please explain the verses I quoted and stop the somersaults.

Here we go again: If Jesus were God, why would he stop a man from calling him good, insisting - no - "only God is Good?" Did Jesus ("God" become less good by dint of being upon the earth?

Did the import of 1 Tim. 2:5 miss you when it states that “there is ONLY ONE GOD, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Jesus Christ.”

What do you understand by the word “mediator”? Can you realistically claim that a mediator is the same person as one of the entities he is acting as a go-between for? You know that is frankly absurd.

Can you tell me if Jesus is equal to the Father. If he is, can you educate me on what he could possibly have meant when he stated : “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). You earlier answer, you well know, was the height of escapism, asking me to go read the whole chapter. . . which I have done anyway.

Most importantly, can you shed light on Jesus’ repeated references to “his God.” He clearly showed himself to be worshipping God, even praying to God on several occasions. Could God pray to God? Does this make sense to you David?

[b]The most spectacular of all his prayers, for me, is the statement in Gethsemane – “Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt”

This statement shows something cardinal: if Jesus were God, as you lot like to claim, his will, and the will of the Father would be absolutely inseparable! This prayer shows clearly that the Father’s will could be different from Jesus’ will, when he says – “not as I will, but as thou wilt”. For me this is the most damning verse against the idea that Jesus is himself God. Because it shows a clear dichotomy of WILL between the father and the so called “son.” But I expect that in your usual fashion you will disregard Jesus’ own words in favour of your dogma.

In defending this, don’t you even dare bring up the lame line that it was his “human fear” that was speaking. Even mere mortals have shown great courage at the point of execution, or in battle, and you want to convince me that ALMIGHTY GOD, in human form, was not capable of stout hearted courage (especially when he was divine, and knew the purpose of his mission on the cross, and how sacred it was).[/b] Mere men have laid down their lives for their countries, happily and without asking for the cup to be removed from them. Gallantly! Now GOD himself, in human form, is not capable of such courage, to save his creatures?

Face it David: your dogma is more precious to you than the words of Jesus himself, who you call saviour and “God”!

Finally it is most pertinent to note that Jesus showed what sort of relationship he had with God when he says – “I am ascending to your father and my father, my God and your God”. [John 20:17]

This makes it pretty clear that in the same way as God is father for us, he is Father for Jesus, and that in the same way as God is God for us, he is God for Jesus.

No wonder 1 Pet. 1:3 – “Praise be to the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ!”

NOW STOP THE CIRCUS ANTICS, FACE THE VERSES ONE AT A TIME LIKE A MAN, AND DEAL WITH THEM SQUARELY.

Otherwise, I will be forced to call in the more competent Noetic to address this thread.

Now finally, juxtapose your so called verses against these verses of mine, and tell me the skeptic is not justified in seeing contradictions (even though i have shown you your verses are mistranslations and mis-interpretations).

1. The man was astounded. “Worship me. . .?” he muttered, his brows furrowed in deep confusion. . . “But I told them to worship only God. . . I told them not to call me good. . . I told them only God is good. . .[Mark 10:18].

2. Silent, Gabriel regarded the scene below. The worship of the sons of men drifted upwards in various brightly coloured threads and coiled around the spirit of Jesus of Nazereth, holding  him fast in limbo, as his delicate soul was not made for worship. . .

3. The man shook his head and tried to clear his memory.
“I told them” he insisted. “I said it several times. I told them through Paul that there is only one God, and that I was only a mediator [1Timothy 2:5].

4. I told them the Father is much greater than I am [John 14:28].

5. I told them not to hold on to me, because I too have a God, I told them clearly that I worship God, and that I would ascend to my GOD [John 20:17].

6. I told them to know God only, and that God merely sent me [John 17:3].

7. Why on earth would they call me God, when I said all these things!??”

8. Restless, but immovable, he continued his thoughts – “Did I not tell tem clearly that I do not know all things, and that only the Father knows all things [Mark 13:32]?

9. Did Cephas not write that I have a God and Father who I worship [1st Peter 1:3].

10. Did Luke not tell them that I was only a mere man accredited by God [Acts 2:22]

Gabriel remained silent by his side. He seemed helpless and dejected. “They also hold on to your death as their salvation.” He whispered mournfully.

11. “I can’t believe this” the man said. “Did they not record that I prayed to God to avert the cross? Surely they know my prayers in Gethsemane” [Luke 22:42]

“It seems they misunderstood everything” Gabriel offered.

12. “But how could they?” The man was still perplexed. They heard me complain about their plans to kill me simply because of the words God sent me to give them [John 8:40].

13. They heard me ask on the stake that God forgive their act of Killing me [Luke 23.34].

14. They heard me tell the parable of the Vineyard also. That parable should have made it clear!” [Mathew 21: 33-46].

Deep Sight:

[size=20pt]David, this is an embarrasment: you have taken to your heels, unable to address this post? [/size]

Marlbron:

I will use the holy spirit analogy in my primordial post to describe Jesus. remember I said that the holy spirit is the manifestation of God's power as evidenced at the point of creation and in the affairs of men. the holy spirit is not a person or spirit neither is he a being. . . . but is the direct manifestation of God's power and influence.

Ecumenical Councils

It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology was clarified and standardized, so that the formula "Three Hypostases in one Ousia" came to be everywhere accepted as an epitome of the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This consensus, however, was not achieved without some confusion at first in the minds of Western theologians, who had translated hypo-stasis as "sub-stantia" (substance, and see also Consubstantial) and understood the Eastern Christians, when speaking of three "Hypostases" in the Godhead, to mean three "Substances," i.e. they suspected them of Tritheism. But, from the middle of the fourth century onwards the word came to be contrasted with ousia and used to mean "individual reality," especially in the Trinitarian and Christological contexts. With regard to the doctrine of the Trinity, hypostasis is usually understood with a meaning akin to the Greek word prosopon, which is translated into Latin as persona and then into English as person. The Christian view of the Trinity is often described as a view of one God existing in three distinct hypostases/personae/persons. It should be noted that the Latin "persona" is not the same as the English "person" but is a broader term that includes the meaning of the English "persona."

Nestorius’ doctrines (in Nestorius (bishop of Constantinople): Nestorianism.)
What Nestorius actually taught was a prosopic union. The Greek term prosōpon means the external, undivided presentation, or manifestation, of an individual that can be extended by means of other things—e.g., a painter includes his brush within his own prosōpon. So the Son of God used manhood for his,

Marlbron:

Viaro,

I was only quoting Noetic and as you see, we share the same view on the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps we can deal with this issue of the Godhead on a new thread, because I think the muslims have a perception which is easily accomodated.

Marlbron:

Viaro,

I recomment reading John 14 till John 16, to understand fully about the Holy Spirit. The power of the holy spirit is limitless. The power was what Christ bestowed on the apostles. We get these things comfused, hence my equations above.

christ confessed that he was the least in the trinity, and he warned against blaspheming against the holy spirit, because the holy spirit is actually God the Father

Marlbron:


Lets be clear, The Godhead is made of 3 personalities: Father, Word and Spirit and they agree or they are one. I think you chew too much when you a mere man declares that the most important of the 3 cannot manifest, when the least has manifested (Jesus Christ).

Marlbron:


Father = God, Word = God, Spirit = God.

Strange equation, but true.

Deep Sight:

It astonishes me that educated adults will subscribe to a foreign myth such as this which is by far more outlandish and laughable than the yoruba creation myth.