God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. That's my favourite prayer and what I believe every human should abide by.
I won't say I'm a Christian or not a Christian, heck, my parents are pastors but I've come to understand christianity today especially in Nigeria is that we worship man and power. We don't know what we practice. I believe christianity shouldn't have been introduced in Nigeria. However, the Universe is too complicated and full of mysteries that we wouldn't have a creator. I'm not a brain dead Christian btw. Being raised in a Christian home have brought me so much pain and yet joy in understanding the cause of my pain, being the fact that I was raised by two religious blinded fanatics who do everything wrong and claims God told them to, through that I've come to understand that we've got this whole Christian thing wrong.
I believe God exists and he created all things but we are the masters of our fate. God won't come down to wipe our butt when we use the toilet, God won't come down to read your books or make you pass your exams, we are our own masters. Atheism is the most beautiful thing to ever counter religion, it's man asking questions and finding answers.
An atheist I've come to respect is Morgan Freeman. I will finally ask this question: What if tomorrow we find out that there's no heaven or hell and the soul dies when we take our last breath, would you be good?

There will be NO CONSCIENCE. There will be no good or bad to be.

Blonchilli:

An atheist I've come to respect is Morgan Freeman. I will finally ask this question: What if tomorrow we find out that there's no heaven or hell and the soul dies when we take our last breath, would you be good?

are you considering atheism or do you just like their ability to question things?

coming to your post, heaven or hell isn't our moral standard... if you do good because you just want to avoid hell and enter heaven then you are way too far from the truth.. if your parents are truly pastors and this is not a cooked up story, then you need to understand the difference between love and doctrine... Christianity nowadays tells people not to do things because they'll burn forever in hell... such a Christian will never love God... which was the first greatest commandment Jesus gave us aside loving our neighbours as ourselves. when they forever threaten people with hell, people will never love God.. So yes... if there is no heaven or hell, people would still do good... we get our morality from God.. the idea of hell wasn't in the old testament yet you find people like Abraham, David etc being close to God because they loved him... loving God and doing good is worth it... its definitely worth it...

please don't mind my atheist meme... I'm no atheist

That's the flaw of religion. It presupposes that humans are incapable of being or doing good without the threat or fear created by religion. But that has been shown to be wrong. Christians are more likely to be imprisoned than atheists. They are more likely to be racists, and children raised in religious homes are less compassionate than their counterparts in secular homes....
All these point to the fact that religion has failed to make people better... So without hell or heaven the good people will be good and the bad will be bad

in as much as I hate religion I can't deny its power in forcing moral on some people. they are simply like police (though using lie punishment and reward system, but what does it matter, something must be used) psychologically balanced people have ability to be good without religion just like obeying law without police but this is Africa, so unfortunate

Yeah, Whether heaven and hell is real or not, I would still be a good man cause I've got a working conscience and I don't want the cops on my heels. The cops call the shots here, not god. And this same reason is why our christian brethren are compelled to keep their morality. Take away the cops and watch the world go asunder as christians could do whatever they want to do, and still get away with it by asking for forgiveness.

So yes, in any event, Non-religious people are likely to be more moral and more rational than religious people.

Yeah I will still try to do what is right at the best of my ability. But if there were no God, subjective morality would be true, thus morality would be so meaningless that my belief that murder is wrong would be just as arbitrary as the fact that we've evolved five fingers rather than six.

Richirich713:
Yeah I will still try to do what is right at the best of my ability. But if there were no God, subjective morality would be true, thus morality would be so meaningless that my belief that murder is wrong would be just as arbitrary as the fact that we've evolved five fingers rather than six.

do you know definition of the word "Murder" is subjective?

Murder: the "unlawful" premeditated killing of one human being by another.

the word "Unlawful" is actually subjective and changes from place to place

Pastafarian:


do you know definition of the word "Murder" is subjective?

Murder: the "unlawful" premeditated killing of one human being by another.

the word "Unlawful" is actually subjective and changes from place to place

U talking about legal definitions, I'm talking in general - murder is the unjustified killing of another human being.

Richirich713:


U talking about legal definitions, I'm talking in general - murder is the unjustified killing of another human being.

the word "Unjustified" also varies from place to place

Unjustified "not shown to be right or reasonable"

"right" and "reasonable" isn't same everywhere

Wilgrea7:


are you considering atheism or do you just like their ability to question things?

coming to your post, heaven or hell isn't our moral standard... if you do good because you just want to avoid hell and enter heaven then you are way too far from the truth.. if your parents are truly pastors and this is not a cooked up story, then you need to understand the difference between love and doctrine... Christianity nowadays tells people not to der in hell... such a Christian will never love God... which was the first greatest commandment Jesus gave us aside loving our neighbours as ourselves. when they forever threaten people with hell, people will never love God.. So yes... if there is no heaven or hell, people would still do good... we get our morality from God.. the idea of hell wasn't in the old testament yet you find people like Abraham, David etc being close to God because they loved him... loving God and doing good is worth it... its definitely worth it...

please don't mind my atheist meme... I'm no atheist

I'm not an atheist but I admire their ability to question things. Seeking the truth matters more than anything else and not following blindly. As for heaven and hell I believe what's important is living one's life without expecting a reward, doing what's right irrespective of faith and doctrine.

Pastafarian:


the word "Unjustified" also varies from place to place

"not shown to be right or reasonable"

"right" and "reasonable" isn't same everywhere

Opinions on when killings are justified vary, doesn't mean there isn't a thing like objective truth, just means there's disagreement. U guys keep thinking that if morality is objective, everybody should be in agreement - I have no clue how that follows.

Richirich713:


Opinions on when killings are justified vary, doesn't mean there isn't a thing like objective truth, just means there's disagreement. U guys keep thinking that if morality is objective, everybody should be in agreement - I have no clue how that follows.

if "Murder" is objective and absolute, then every society should be in agreement

I'm afraid I don't see how that doesn't follow, educate me

Blonchilli:

I'm not an atheist but I admire their ability to question things. Seeking the truth matters more than anything else and not following blindly. As for heaven and hell I believe what's important is living one's life without expecting a reward, doing what's right irrespective of faith and doctrine.

How do you as a person know what's right without Faith?

Richirich713:


Opinions on when killings are justified vary, doesn't mean there isn't a thing like objective truth, just means there's disagreement. U guys keep thinking that if morality is objective, everybody should be in agreement - I have no clue how that follows.

True .They just don't get it .

Pastafarian:


How do you as a person know what's right without Faith?

There are millions of people around the world who are making the world a better place without any religion attached to it. Will Smith for example said he's neither a Christian, Muslim, or scientologist but you can't argue the good he has given to humanity. So many public figure (Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Morgan Freeman) have publicly claim not to be affiliated with any religion but you can argue the good, knowledge and help they've brought to humanity without being all religious.
P.S don't mind my reference to celebrities, in Nigeria we are yet to see a successful bussinesman, sports person who don't say his smallest achievement is God's doing or not religious

Pastafarian:


if "Murder" is objective and absolute, then every society should be in agreement

I'm afraid I don't see how that doesn't follow, educate me

People disagree over whether God exists, whether there is an afterlife, whether the universe is a simulation, whether humans evolved, whether reality is an illusion, yet we don’t conclude from this that there is no objective truth about these matters. It may be difficult to know whether God exists. But whether he exists is not simply a matter of opinion. The mere fact that there's disagreement over an issue doesn't mean there's no objective truth regarding that issue. Humans are not infallible, we disagree over tons of things.

Richirich713:


U talking about legal definitions, I'm talking in general - murder is the unjustified killing of another human being.

He's asking what are the possible justifications of killing. These justifications vary by place and time. For example, a firing squad killing a convicted murderer is justified in Nigeria. But in Norway, they have scrapped capital punishment because its considered unjustifiable.

randomperson:

He's asking what are the possible justifications of killing. These justifications vary by place and time. For example, a firing squad killing a convicted murderer is justified in Nigeria. But in Norway, they have scrapped capital punishment because its considered unjustifiable.

As I said we disagree over when killings is justified, but the fact that we disagree doesn't mean there no objective truth.

Richirich713:


As I said we disagree over when killings is justified, but the fact that we disagree doesn't mean there no objective truth.

No, we don't agree when my killings are justified. That's why I used the Norway and Nigeria analogy. In Nigeria it's justifiable to kill a murderer after conviction, in Norway it's not.
And, yes, the fact that we disagree rubbishes the notion of an objective truth. If the disagreement was born out of dishonesty and we actually believed the same thing maybe u could be right... But our honest beliefs are actually different, if there was an objective truth, our beliefs about morality would be the same

Richirich713:


People disagree over whether God exists, whether there is an afterlife, whether the universe is a simulation, whether humans evolved, whether reality is an illusion, yet we don’t conclude from this that there is no objective truth about these matters. It may be difficult to know whether God exists. But whether he exists is not simply a matter of opinion. The mere fact that there's disagreement over an issue doesn't mean there's no objective truth regarding that issue. Humans are not infallible, we disagree over tons of things.

If there was absolute morality and god has actually given the absolute laws of morality, then there should be no disagreement about what the laws are. If I asked u what is god's law about slavery, what would be your response?

randomperson:

No, we don't agree when my killings are justified. That's why I used the Norway and Nigeria analogy. In Nigeria it's justifiable to kill a murderer after conviction, in Norway it's not.
And, yes, the fact that we disagree rubbishes the notion of an objective truth. If the disagreement was born out of dishonesty and we actually believed the same thing maybe u could be right... But our honest beliefs are actually different, if there was an objective truth, our beliefs about morality would be the same

In other words society decides what is right and wrong, meaning apartheid in south africa was not immoral, which makes morality is arbitrary and very inconsistent considering how people condemn other societies.

randomperson:

If there was absolute morality and god has actually given the absolute laws of morality, then there should be no disagreement about what the laws are. If I asked u what is god's law about slavery, what would be your response?

I hold to objective morality, not absolute. And evens if morality was absolute I don't see how it follows that we would all agree on what is right and wrong.

I would say that slavery in OT was about indentured servitude not chattel slavery and it was specifically existed to benefit the poor. U can read more here: http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

I don't know why atheists keep thinking that Christians only serve God for the reward they can get from Him as well as from fear of being thrown into hell.

True love for God is based on His love for us. I love God so much that I can never imagine life without Him. His goodness towards me cannot be estimated. His love for me is unconditional. If God loves me so much as to send His only begotten Son, His Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, to die in my place so that I can live, the little I can do to appreciate His great sacrifice is to love and worship Him in return. I don't care if hell or heaven exists. All I care about is to be found in Him, to please Him and be with Him. His love for me is the beginning and end of my decision to follow Him, not heaven, not hell.

Add to that, perfect love casts out all fear. If you love God so much what does the fear of hell have to do with it? Nothing.

If there was nothing like heaven or hell, I would still love God and do good to please Him. Many would still be good and many would still be bad.

skeendyke:
I don't know why atheists keep thinking that Christians only serve God for the reward they can get from Him as well as from fear of being thrown into hell.

True love for God is based on His love for us. I love God so much that I can never imagine life without Him. His goodness towards me cannot be estimated. His love for me is unconditional. If God loves me so much as to send His only begotten Son, His Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, to die in my place so that I can live, the little I can do to appreciate His great sacrifice is to love and worship Him in return. I don't care if hell or heaven exists. All I care about is to be found in Him, to please Him and be with Him. His love for me is the beginning and end of my decision to follow Him, not heaven, not hell.

Add to that, perfect love casts out all fear. If you love God so much what does the fear of hell have to do with it? Nothing.

If there was nothing like heaven or hell, I would still love God and do good to please Him. Many would still be good and many would still be bad.

You have simply being scared into loving God...

Richirich713:


In other words society decides what is right and wrong, meaning apartheid in south africa was not immoral, which makes morality is arbitrary and very inconsistent considering how people condemn other societies.



I hold to objective morality, not absolute. And evens if morality was absolute I don't see how it follows that we would all agree on what is right and wrong.

I would say that slavery in OT was about indentured servitude not chattel slavery and it was specifically existed to benefit the poor. U can read more here: http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

Apartheid in south Africa was condemned by majority of south Africans who happened to be black. The only reason apartheid happened is because the rich white minority lorded it over the black majority. So u are just proving my point.

You would say slavery in the bible was so and so... But u cannot give one bible verse to support that assertion. Slaves could be beaten to death, could be bought and sold under the law of Moses. It was wrong in every way possible.
If you're arguing that morality is objective not absolute then u are shooting yourself in the foot. Because if it was objective it won't keep on changing

randomperson:

You have simply being scared into loving God...

It is hard for you to imagine that there is no fear in love. King David is a good example of someone who loved God so much that he said he would rather be in the house of God, to spend much time on His Presence. He said he thirsted so much for God and followed hard after him. This same David, you know, never knew anything about heaven or hell, or mansions in heaven or any of that. He loved God with all his might. Why? He had seen the goodness of God in his life many times and for that he loved God.

We love because God loved us first....

If you love your earthly father, is it because you are scared he will punish you for your wrong someday? As a toddler, a child, a teenager, an adult?

Fear is slavery...love brings freedom

skeendyke:


It is hard for you to imagine that there is no fear in love. King David is a good example of someone who loved God so much that he said he would rather be in the house of God, to spend much time on His Presence. He said he thirsted so much for God and followed hard after him. This same David, you know, never knew anything about heaven or hell, or mansions in heaven or any of that. He loved God with all his might. Why? He had seen the goodness of God in his life many times and for that he loved God.

We love because God loved us first....

If you love your earthly father, is it because you are scared he will punish you for your wrong someday? As a toddler, a child, a teenager, an adult?

Fear is slavery...love brings freedom

I love my family, I don't fear them. But they didn't need to threaten me with fire to love them. If God is love why would he plan to burn people in eternity

randomperson:

I love my family, I don't fear them. But they didn't need to threaten me with fire to love them. If God is love why would he plan to burn people in eternity

Your earthly father gives you advice, helps you when in need, gives you his support when you need it but he also cautions you against certain actions that displease him and attract certain consequences. You never go about telling people that you hate your father because he threatened to take actions against you. You still love him and do those things that will make him proud of you. You love your father because he has shown so much love for you.

Why is it, then, that when God cautions you against taking actions that displease Him you label it a threat? You ignore God's love for you. You ignore everything He has done to show His love for you. You ignore the fact that His warning is not aimed at showing His supremacy over you but to show you that He loves you so much that He doesn't want you to end up in destruction.

He doesn't need your permission to destroy you or the world. He can destroy everybody who speaks evil against Him or those who hate Him in the blink of an eye. He doesn't need to wait till you die before He punishes you. However, if He did that then the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is in vain. Christ would only have died for nothing. That's God's love and patience in action, displayed through the death of Christ on the cross.

skeendyke:


Your earthly father gives you advice, helps you when in need, gives you his support when you need it but he also cautions you against certain actions that displease him and attract certain consequences. You never go about telling people that you hate your father because he threatened to take actions against you. You still love him and do those things that will make him proud of you. You love your father because he has shown so much love for you.

Why is it, then, that when God cautions you against taking actions that displease Him you label it a threat? You ignore God's love for you. You ignore everything He has done to show His love for you. You ignore the fact that His warning is not aimed at showing His supremacy over you but to show you that He loves you so much that He doesn't want you to end up in destruction.

He doesn't need your permission to destroy you or the world. He can destroy everybody who speaks evil against Him or those who hate Him in the blink of an eye. He doesn't need to wait till you die before He punishes you. However, if He did that then the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is in vain. Christ would only have died for nothing. That's God's love and patience in action, displayed through the death of Christ on the cross.

My father cautions me but he doesn't threaten me with eternal roasting if I don't obey. That's love. There's no how a person who loves another will burn that person eternally in an inferno. Can your father so that to you? Can you do that to your son?

randomperson:

My father cautions me but he doesn't threaten me with eternal roasting if I don't obey. That's love. There's no how a person who loves another will burn that person eternally in an inferno. Can your father do that to you? Can you do that to your son?

Your father is a loving father who makes sure that he is always there for you. He makes you understand that crime attracts punishment. He never fails to remind you to stay away from crime and bad company. He loves you so much and you know that. However, your father is also an impartial and fair judge who has presided over many trials and passed sentences according to the law.

It happens that you rebelliously keep bad company; you steal and fight on streets and everywhere. You do exactly the opposite things your dad had always warned you against. One day, you were arrested along with others for committing a crime punishable by death. Your father is the presiding judge. It is proved beyond reasonable doubt that you took part in the crime. The verdict is you are guilty. The sentence - death. You are your father's only son. His heir. Would he free you because you are his only loving son and heir or would he sentence you to death knowing that though he loves you he can do nothing about it. The only chance he had to save you was the persistent warning he gave to you to desist from crime and evil company. He is bound by the law to pass sentence in accordance with the verdict and law.

If you were the judge what would you do?

Would you risk being impartial? Would you bring upon yourself the reputation of being unjust even in the face of overwhelming evidence?

Richirich713:


People disagree over whether God exists, whether there is an afterlife, whether the universe is a simulation, whether humans evolved, whether reality is an illusion, yet we don’t conclude from this that there is no objective truth about these matters. It may be difficult to know whether God exists. But whether he exists is not simply a matter of opinion. The mere fact that there's disagreement over an issue doesn't mean there's no objective truth regarding that issue. Humans are not infallible, we disagree over tons of things.

what is objective morality and what is absolute morality?

randomperson:

You have simply being scared into loving God...

You're my new favorite person on nairaland. My favorite person was rokiatu and you know the reason why.lol. Christianity is people being threatened else they burn forever. Same way they're threatened to pay tithe else they rob God when sadly they're being robbed. As for slavery if God approves slavery like he did in the old testament then he certainly approves the killings by religious extremists (Turkey, Nigeria), he approves oppression, bully, inhuman practice to man, rape, assault, battery and brutality and that God cannot be my God.