m_nwankwo:

Hi Krayola. Yes I think that two or more people can have similar understanding of God. I used similar as it captures the picture better than using identical understanding. Differences arise not because the will of God changes but the spiritual maturity of the seekers are different. Individuals on the same level spirtually will percieve the will of God in a very similar way. Thus for example if 10 people are at  a similar level of spiritual maturity and each is independently shown  a vision of heaven. Then, when anyone of them describes what was shown to him, the nine others will recognise it as what was also shown to them too. Thus, differences are simply a reflection of the varied maturity of men. When people change inwardly, their perception also changes. Just like on earth, if 10 people have heard and recognised the track "Thriller" by MJ and then Thriller is played independently for each of them, each will again recognise it as Thriller by MJ although the effect on them may vary. It may make some to remember with nolstagia their teenage years, others it will envoke different emotions but whatever the emotion, they know it is Thriller by MJ. If however 10 people claim to recognise Thriller by MJ and yet 9 out of the 10 say that it is pokker face by Lady Gaga, Umbrella by Rhina or even symphony no 9 by Bethoven, then it is clear that the nine have not recognised Thriller by MJ. Best wishes.

Thanks for ur response.  

Picture someone living in, say, 13th century China, and another in 21st Century New york city. They both have different world-views, and different conceptions of the divine, and understand certain symbols differently. If God were to reveal something to them. . .would it be in language or imagery familiar to each of them, or would they see and understand the same stuff in the same way?

Or, if the book of revelation were written today, would there be horses and swords, or jets and missiles?

Chrisbenogor:

I am personally serving you the subpoena viaro you have to appear in court asap!

I'm in trouble now!

viaro:

I'm in trouble now!

Guilty Innocent until proven guilty

Chrisbenogor:

Guilty Innocent until proven guilty

This is even more trouble!

Krayola:

Thanks for your response.

Picture someone living in, say, 13th century China, and another in 21st Century New york city. They both have different world-views, and different conceptions of the divine, and understand certain symbols differently. If God were to reveal something to them. . .would it be in language or imagery familiar to each of them, or would they see and understand the same stuff in the same way?

Or, if the book of revelation were written today, would there be horses and swords, or jets and missiles?

Hi Krayola. Thank you too. What God reveals to the 13th Century Chinese and the 21st New Yorker will be independent and outside the language and imagery familiar to both of them. And if both are at a similar level of spiritual maturity, they will articulate this revelation in such a way that the 13th century Chinese will recognise the description of the 21st Newyoker as the same revealation that he also recieved. If however both are on different level of spiritual development, then the articulation will be different and perharps will reflect their own culture and enviroment. Thus the revelation is completely indpendent of the articulation. The more matured a human being is spiritually, the more is his articulation of the revelation of God closer to the revealtion, and when a human being has achieved the required maturity necessary to enter the kingdom of God, then there is no articulation but only the revelation. Thus such a one can see through the various articulations and still find the revelation of God. Simply a human spirit who has attained the required maturity of the spirit will see the same revelations of God in the teachings of Buddha, Mohammed, Laotze, Zoroaster, Moses, Krishna etc and is capable of separating the revelations of God from articulation of these revelations by the followers of these prophets of God. It is the articulation of these revelations or truths given to mankind by God that is the source of the confusion, not the truth or revelations themselves. In addition if both the chinese and the Newyorker are spiritually matured, then they will see in spirit the same revelation without any articulation or description.

If the book of revelation is written today, it will be exactly the same as we have it for revelation is a a spirtually transmitted writing, that means that the blessed "author" of the book of revelation simply pens down what was shown to him spiritually without any articulation by the brain. Thus the horses, swords, etc are spiritual realities which makes no sense to the man who cannot use his spirit, it is one reason why the book of revelation is an enigma both to believers and scholars. Best wishes.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Krayola. Thank you too. What God  reveals to the 13th Century Chinese and the 21st New Yorker will be independent and outside the language and imagery familiar to both of them. And if both are at a similar level of spiritual maturity, they will articulate this revelation in such a way that the 13th century Chinese will recognise the description of the 21st Newyoker as the same revealation that he also recieved. If however both are on different level of spiritual development, then the articulation will be different and perharps will reflect their own culture and enviroment. Thus the revelation is completely indpendent of the articulation. The more matured a human being is spiritually, the more is his articulation of the revelation of God closer to the revealtion,  and when a human being has achieved the required maturity necessary to enter the kingdom of God, then there is no articulation but only the revelation. Thus such a one can see through the various articulations and still find the revelation of God. Simply a human spirit who has attained the required maturity of the spirit will see the same revelations of God in the teachings of Buddha, Mohammed, Laotze, Zoroaster, Moses, Krishna etc and is capable of separating the revelations of God from articulation of these revelations by the followers of these prophets of God. It is the articulation of these revelations or truths given to mankind by God that is the source of the confusion, not the truth or revelations themselves. In addition if both the chinese and the Newyorker are spiritually matured, then they will see in spirit the same revelation without any articulation or description. 

If the book of revelation is written today, it will be exactly the same as we have it for revelation is a a spirtually transmitted writing, that means that the blessed "author" of the book of revelation simply pens down what was shown to him spiritually without any articulation by the brain. Thus the horses, swords, etc are spiritual realities which makes no sense to the man who cannot use his spirit, it is one reason why the book of revelation is an enigma both to believers and scholars. Best wishes.

Thanks again. I appreciate your time and patience.

Outside of belief, what do u think the relationship between spiritual development and practice (how one lives one's life) is?

When u talk of spiritual maturity, is there a relationship between that and intellect, culture, exposure, or can one mature spiritually without exposure to any of the "prophets" and their teaching? What about someone with no religious background whatsoever?

Can a child born and abandoned and raised by wolves mature spiritually? how ?

When u say "Kingdom of God" what exactly do u mean? a place, a state of being, state of mind?

Is spiritual maturity a criterion for access to the "Kingdom of God"?

Sorry if i'm asking a lot of questions. . . can't help it.

Hi Krayola. I will give my view on your questions later today. One of my students is having a problem with his experiments, I have to go and see if I can find a solution to the problem. Talk to you later.

no problemo. . .

Hi Krayola. These are my views to the questions you raised.

Outside of belief, what do u think the relationship between spiritual development and practice (how one lives one's life) is?

Spiritual development is not some abstract term. The activities of any human being (irrespective of what he believes) is a reflection of his level of spiritual development. Activities of man include his actions, words, thoughts, motives and his intuitions. The activities of one who is spiritually developed is penetrated by selfless love of God, his fellow men and indeed all creatures. Unfortunately, the average person cannot see thoughts, motives, and intuition and bases his or her judjement only on physically visible actions and words, and often makes the wrong judgement with attendant disapointment and misery. Most people can outwardly appear good but are evil if you can gain access to their thoughts, motives and intution. A spiritually developed person is both inwardly and outwardly good and will not consciously bring harm to another human being. Such a one only wishes the best for his fellow human being, rejoices in their success and shares in their failures or misery. Just like you can easily deduce the nature of a seed by the fruits it bears so it is that one can deduce the maturity of himself as well as his fellow men by looking at their activities. Our activities mark us for what we are irrespective of what we say that we are or believe that we are.

When u talk of spiritual maturity, is there a relationship between that and intellect, culture, exposure, or can one mature spiritually without exposure to any of the "prophets" and their teaching? What about someone with no religious background whatsoever?

Spiritual maturity has no relationship to the intellect, culture, exposure or religion. Spiritual maturity refers to the maturity of the spirit and this maturity is measured on how ones activity is in sync with the will of God.The spirit of man has the faculties that will enable it to recognise the will of God. These faculties are gifts which God bestowed on every spirit so that it cannot go astray on its journey through different planes of creation.The faculties will lead the spirit to all the necessary schooling it needs for its development, these same spiritual faculties ensures that all human beings have atleast on one occasion listened directly from a prophet of God and in some cases from the son of God himself. The knowlege of such experiences is buried in the spirit and the channels for it to be transmitted to the earthly brain is damaged, thus people are not conscous of such experiences. Thus even present day atheists have on one or several occasions listened directly form a prophet of God or even Jesus, the son of God.

Can a child born and abandoned and raised by wolves mature spiritually? how ?

Yes. There are physically invincible servants of God that will guide the child leading it to recognitions that it needs even in the mist of wolves. There are also other servants of God that will teach the wolves what to do until the child is old enough to fend for himself. It will divert from your questions if I go into details here. Suffice it to say that God never leave us without help no matter the circumstance, our problem is that we have stubbornly closed the channels that will lead us to those servants of God, hence our misery and misfortune.

When u say "Kingdom of God" what exactly do u mean? a place, a state of being, state of mind?

The kingdom of God is a place. It is found in the spiritual creation. The spirit which we are came from the kingdom of God and if it develops according to the will of God will return to the kingdom of God.

Is spiritual maturity a criterion for access to the "Kingdom of God"?

Absolutely,no immature or impure spirit will enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is the abode of matured and pure spirits. Maybe some day, I may elaborate on this. Best wishes.

Thank you so much. I have some more questions but I will wait till another time. I know u have other things to worry about/do and you have been a great sport already.

Krayola:

Thank you so much. I have some more questions but I will wait till another time. I know u have other things to worry about/do and you have been a great sport already.

Thanks for your consideration. Always feel free to ask your questions. Best wishes.

noetic15:

God: one who exhibits all authority (known and unknown), to whom ALL is subject, creator of all creations, all knowing and super-intelligent.
god: a local deity

Thanx for the response, can you now explain what the phrase "Son of God" is within the context of our discussion?

KunleOshob:

Thanx for the response, can you now explain what the phrase "Son of God" is within the context of our discussion?

Son of God simply means God . . , . this is obvious from the reaction of the listeners when Jesus called Himself the Son of God. . .they wanted to stone Him.
When Jesus said "before Abraham was I am". . . they also knew the meaning. Jesus was the "I am that I am" that appeared in the burning bush.

Can u now start answering my own questions?

noetic15:

Son of God simply means God . . , . this is obvious from the reaction of the listeners when Jesus called Himself the Son of God. . .they wanted to stone Him.
When Jesus said "before Abraham was I am". . . they also knew the meaning. Jesus was the "I am that I am" that appeared in the burning bush.

Can u now start answering my own questions?

I think i am going to have to go back to school to take further lessons in English before i can comprehend your use of English. Judging form this it means i am the same person as my father i laugh in tongues.

KunleOshob:

I think i am going to have to go back to school to take further lessons in English before i can comprehend your use of English. Judging form this it means i am the same person as my father i laugh in tongues.

would it not be ridiculous to interpret son to mean the same thing as we have now in english language, considering the context in which it was used?

and when are u going to answer my questions?

noetic15:

would it not be ridiculous to interpret son to mean the same thing as we have now in english language, considering the context in which it was used?
and when are u going to answer my questions?

This is really very evasive, in which context was son used to translate son to father in the bible


On your question of Alpha and Omega, i have already answerd that. On the issue of how many Gods there are in heaven there is one God almighty and he is not three in one God but one single and infinite deity. As i said earlier the son is not the Almighty but a likeness of the almighty so stop confusing issues and read your bible very well.

noetic15:

God: one who exhibits all authority (known and unknown), [/b]to whom ALL is subject, creator of all creations, [b]all knowing and super-intelligent.
god: a local deity  

Young man, you enjoy shooting yourself in the leg. Your defination disqualifies jesus as God. How come your almighty  jesus said he did not  know the last hour. Was he lying or juest playing his usual  human games like eating, crying, dying etc

Please o, just to address the alpha and omega matter. I just want to draw attention to the fact the alpha and omega are nothing other than 2 letters in the greek alphabet.

The only literal interpretation of someone saying they are the alpha and the omega would be that they are letters of alphabet. No reference to any divinity here.

However if we want to understand it as a metaphor for something else then we have a number of choices.

Alpha and omega being the first and the last letters of the alphabet suggests that he is saying that he is there at the beginning and will be there at the end. No reference to any divinity here.

Or that as alpha and omega are the boundaries of the alphabet then he is a boundary for everything that exists. Still no reference to divinity.


I am reminded also of the reference to 2 adam in early christian christology. Perhaps Jesus is identifying with Adam. Even then there is no reference to divinity.

noetic15:

Son of God simply means God . . , . this is obvious from the reaction of the listeners when Jesus called Himself the Son of God. . .they wanted to stone Him.
When Jesus said "before Abraham was I am". . . they also knew the meaning. Jesus was the "I am that I am" that appeared in the burning bush.

Can u now start answering my own questions?

so when we learn in the book of Job that the sons of God were gathered and Satan was amongst them does that mean that they are all God, and most shockingly of all, so is Satan?

the_seeker:

Young man, you enjoy shooting yourself in the leg. Your defination disqualifies jesus as God. How come your almighty  jesus said he did not  know the last hour. Was he lying or juest playing his usual  human games like eating, crying, dying etc

The young man?

Pastor AIO:

so when we learn in the book of Job that the sons of God were gathered and Satan was amongst them does that mean that they are all God, and most shockingly of all, so is Satan?

noetic?

the_seeker:

Young man, you enjoy shooting yourself in the leg. Your defination disqualifies jesus as God. How come your almighty  jesus said he did not  know the last hour. Was he lying or juest playing his usual  human games like eating, crying, dying etc

this requires a thorough analyses/explanation. . . I am sure I dont want to get involved in educating ur ignorance . . .at least not now.

KunleOshob:

This is really very evasive, in which context was son used to translate son to father in the bible


On your question of Alpha and Omega, i have already answerd that. On the issue of how many Gods there are in heaven there is one God almighty and he is not three in one God but one single and infinite deity. As i said earlier the son is not the Almighty but a likeness of the almighty so stop confusing issues and read your bible very well.

whats the meaning of the above? . . . .are u talking to illiterates? what is the relationship between the Gods in heaven? and what does it mean to be the son of God, with regards to Jesus, and also put into context where He said it in the bible and the reaction of the listeners?

Pastor AIO:

so when we learn in the book of Job that the sons of God were gathered and Satan was amongst them does that mean that they are all God, and most shockingly of all, so is Satan?

So when the bible talks about the manifestation of the sons of God. . . . what was it talking about?
Can u stop peddling lies and mixing up theories. the sons of God who gathered in job, we saw many of them appear in the bible. . .did they accept worship of any form from man?
whats the difference between their sonship and the sonship of Jesus?. . . .

Pastor AIO:

Please o, just to address the alpha and omega matter.  I just want to draw attention to the fact the alpha and omega are nothing other than 2 letters in the greek alphabet.

The only literal interpretation of someone saying they are the alpha and the omega would be that they are letters of alphabet.  No reference to any divinity here.

However if we want to understand it as a metaphor for something else then we have a number of choices.

Alpha and omega being the first and the last letters of the alphabet suggests that he is saying that he is there at the beginning and will be there at the end.  No reference to any divinity here. 

Or that as alpha and omega are the boundaries of the alphabet then he is a boundary for everything that exists.  Still no reference to divinity.


I am reminded also of the reference to 2 adam in early christian christology.  Perhaps Jesus is identifying with Adam.  Even then there is no reference to divinity.

The above assertions are FALSE.

how does being alpha and omega make no reference to divinity? and how does alpha and omega imply presence at the point of events?
have u ever  read john 1:3?

Resurrected!

  Because I stumbled on MNwankwo's post again below . . .

My view is that many simple minded people have a correct perception of God even though they cannot define it or describe it in a way that seems reasonable to others with sophisticated intellect. It is the man with a sophisticated intellect that has problems with understanding the ways of God or even believing in God. When people think too much as scholars do, they create a maze of thoughts that are so loud that they suffocate the calm quiet voice of the spirit.  The spirit alone has the ability to understand the will of God. When this voice of the spirit is unrecognised due to the noise generated by intellectual pondering, then the path to percieving God or and his will is blocked.

   . . . just beautiful. And many of us here would do well to consider this well well.