Cire80:
What's the meaning of Obi in Igbo then. I'm sure you know quite well that every word must not be translated word for word. OK, assuming Obi is an Igbo word, translate it let's see. The Last time I checked, I didn't see any reasonable meaning of Obi in Igbo that relates it to kingship. No non Anioma king uses the Obi title. Only recently I started seeing some writing something like Eze of so so and so, then something like Igwe then Obi on bracket before the name and this is because of the prestige attached to the Obi title. Then you And are you going to ignore the Ovie title which was also corrupted from Ovbie?

Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

Cire80:
I'm not talking about Eze. I clearly wrote Obi. Obi has never been an Igbo title. It's a clear corruption from the original Bini title just. Even the Urhobo version has the same root word. What is the meaning of Obi in Igbo?

Comedian. Edo man tinkering with Igbo words he know next to nothing about.

RedboneSmith:


Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

Thank you.
Was about responding to his twists when I saw your reply.

This cire80 guy go just dey dey cap rubbish about Igbos...

cheruv:
This cire80 guy go just dey dey cap rubbish about Igbos...

who know you? I'll respond to the only reasonable person I see here (Redbone) when I have the time. I don't have time for imposters like you

Cire80:
who know you? I'll respond to the only reasonable person I see here (Redbone) when I have the time. I don't have time for imposters like you

You've been busted severally as an Edo impersonating the great Ika nation...everyone here now knows you as a fraud,so I wonder who's more credible btwn us

RedboneSmith:


Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

Thanks you did Justice to that, but for clarity purposes, I want to explain the 3 meanings of Obi in Igbo language

1..(obi-compoud or courtyard) Just like Redbone rightly pointed out, obi can mean the central head compound of a family and can be referred to as where major family issues are trashed by the family elders e.g one can say obi Nnam meaning my fathers compound or obi Eze meaning king's compound e.t.c ... General obi in this aspect refers to a household living arena that's y someone can say in Igbo "ebem bi" meaning where I live.. The "bi" meaning "live" is just a verb of the noun "obi" meaning "compound" or courtyard. It is also worthy to note that obi as a living quarter in Igbo has rank or levels... N that's why we have what is called "isi obi' meaning " head compound" where extended family members leave there own individual "obis" and gather to discuss issues or take council from the most senior member of the family or kindred who is usually the most senior male member of such family who inherited the original ancestral compound from where the other family members dispersed from... This now leads to the second meaning of obi in Igbo land

2...(obi- kingship) ... If you understand the first explained meaning of obi, you would have figured its relationship with kingship in Igbo context... Obi as with regards to king is more pronounced in kingship because the kings palace is where the elders of different kindreds and family clans of a particular village or town, leaving there own "isi obis (a kindreds head compound)" to gather at "obi Eze ( Kings court or compound)" representing their individual kindreds to discuss issues pertaining to the kingdom. Looking closely one can see the correlation between the meaning of obi as associated with kingship in igboland.Therefore the kings obi is seen as the obi of all obis in the community or one can rightly substitute the name of the community or kingdom to be for instance Obi of Agbor or Obi of Onitsha... One can now see how individual obis rose to the level of isi obi as with regards to kindreds and then graduated to highest level of the obi Eze as with regards to the king... One can also explain it to be like this ... The individual obi is just man lording over his household, isi obi is the male head of a kindred lording over the households dt made up the kindred why the obi Eze is the kings court ruling over their entire houseldholds in the kingdom in which the isi obis and individual obis are rightly under it! I hope that explains dt clearly...

3... ( obi- heart).... This also has a relationship with being "head" as with the above explained two meanings . in Igboland it is believe and rightly that human heart is the main engine of the human body and therefore seen as the centre life source of the human being and that's y in Igbo language the heart is called obi with its regard as the life source or head dt governs whether one is alive or dead... Normally when one is being checked to be alive or dead u check the heart beat.. Therefore the heart is the centre ruling other parts of the body therefore it is called obi in Igbo but the difference between this obi and the previous two is in its pronunciation . in pronouciation it tends to go down y the previous two sounds goes up in pronouciation.


I hope I did Justice to that and cleared none igbos who think obi king title has no Igbo origin!

RedboneSmith:


Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

now, it makes lots of sense that Ovie is a cognate of Ogie or Ojie but Obi is not a place. That there is a place called Imen Obi
doesn't mean Obi title is a location or Palace. And the closest term for Palace in Ika and Anioma is Ogua and not Obi. An average Ika man doesn't know what Obi means as regards a palace. And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace. Obi Eze and the Anioma Obi title don't have any correlation whatsoever. You should have asked the people that have the Obi title to explain to you the origin of the word before making such speculation.

Oduduwaa:
Ovie Of Isoko

ALL THESE WOMANIZERS MARRYING MANY WIVES IN THE NAME OF TRADITIONAL RULERS

Oduduwaa:
Obi of Igbo

With the Benin Abe Sword of Office and beads.

slowpoke
this is Obi of Onitsha and not Obi of Igbo

Oduduwaa:



The british should av just left us the way we were then.... Na dem mess up dis country


I thought ohaneze ndi igbo was an umbrella organisation for all igbos?

I also dont like the way igbos give eze ndi igbo in other states like in Ondo state

An average Igbo man likes big name(Title), they go as far as Turkey to have Eze talkless of states in Nigeria,
they don't joke with the title

Na person wey feel say him pocket get weight dey find title



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSf-r_SI7MI

Cire80:
Are these kings Monarchies? And why is the Obi title only in Anioma and Kingdoms affiliated with Anioma. Could it be this?

If the Ovie title of the Urhobos was corrupted from this Edo word Ovbie, then it makes lots of sense that Obi was also from this same word. The Urhobos eliminated the letter B while the Aniomas eliminated the letters B, E

Obi means ''Heart'' ''Center'' ''Head'' or ''Engine'' in Igbo


Obi is simply the head-controller...

Obi-ama means capital in Igbo, eg the Obi-ama of Nigeria is Abuja, Buhari is the Obi of Nigerians

Cire80:
now, it makes lots of sense that Ovie is a cognate of Ogie or Ojie but Obi is not a place. That there is a place called Imen Obi is not doesn't mean Obi title is a location or Palace. And the closest term for Palace in Ika and Anioma is Ogua and not Obi. An average Ika man doesn't know what Obi means as regards a palace. And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace. Obi Eze and the Anioma Obi title doesn't have any correlation whatsoever. You should have asked the people that have the Obi title to explain to you the origin of the word before making such speculation.

You said: "And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace."

Let me re-iterate: Obi in Igbo means palace. The word (obi) has layers of meaning, all of them interconnected. At its most basic level, it refers to the centre of authority in a household or a clan. By extension it refers to, yes, a palace.

But since my words are not good enough, I will attach shots taken from two Igbo dictionaries in my archives. The first shot is from a wordlist prepared by colonial anthropologist Northcote Thomas (who started working in the Igbo field in 1898) and published in 1913. The second is from a dictionary prepared by noted linguist Roger Blench, one of the most prolific scholars in the field of "Igboid" linguistics.

(NB: I see some posts here saying Obi means heart. That is a different obi, and it is accented as óbì. The 'Obi' in question here is òbí. They are different words.)

True, we do not use obi to mean palace in Ika, Aniocha and Oshimili. We use egua/ogua (Ika) or ogwa (Aniocha-Oshimili). And this is a local rendition of the Edo word for palace, eguae.

But isn't it a bit strange that you were willing a few days ago to accept that ovbi, a Bini word for child is the source of Obi when ovbi doesn't mean child in Ika or Enuani, but will not entertain Obi the Igbo for palace being etymologically related to Obi the word for king because Obi as palace is not used in Ika-Enuani? This, quite frankly, betrays an implicit bias that many of us (not just Ikas, but also a great many of us in Aniocha-Oshimili) show when discussions of our dual or tripartite heritage (Edo and Igbo, or Edo, Igbo and Igala) are being had.


Anyway, from a historical-linguistic standpoint, it is not difficult to explain why Anioma uses a different word than obi to mean palace, while possibly retaining (with a slight semantic change) the word (obi) for other uses. This often happens when a language draws heavily from two language-stocks (like Ika and Aniocha drew from Edo and Igbo), and inevitably leads to situations where there are two differently-sourced words meaning the same thing. Sometimes both words are retained like that; sometimes one of the words goes out of use; sometimes one of the words undergo semantic change to refer to something else, but usually remains close to the original meaning.

This happened a lot in the English language, when English began to mix with French following the Norman Conquest. Eg: the English took the French words for pig and lamb (pork and mutton), but modified their meanings, so that pork amd mutton don't mean pig and lamb in English, but only the dead meat of these animals. The egua-obi situation is seemingly similar to the pig-pork situation.

I have already asked twice that you try and come up with a reasonable translation of Ime Obi, but you've brushed that aside twice. A historical linguist will easily identify that phrase (Ime Obi) as containing a linguistic relict. A linguistic relict is a word usage that has managed to retain an older meaning of a word after the meaning of the word has changed in other regards.


You said I was making a speculation. I agree. I myself used the word 'plausible' in my other post, and have used the word 'possibly' a number of times in this one. But speculation or not, this is a far better explanation than all the Bini speculations I have heard concerning the origin of the word.

When one sees two words that are:

1. pronounced exactly the same (òbí, òbí),
2. have meanings that are close enough that differences are likely to be only semantic (palace/centre of authority, king),
3. come from languages that are recognised by all professional linguists in the field as belonging to the same language family (the Igboid language family),

one has to hold some bias not to strongly suspect that it was originally the same word.

Chysler:


Thanks you did Justice to that, but for clarity purposes, I want to explain the 3 meanings of Obi in Igbo language

1..(obi-compoud or courtyard) Just like Redbone rightly pointed out, obi can mean the central head compound of a family and can be referred to as where major family issues are trashed by the family elders e.g one can say obi Nnam meaning my fathers compound or obi Eze meaning king's compound e.t.c ... General obi in this aspect refers to a household living arena that's y someone can say in Igbo "ebem bi" meaning where I live.. The "bi" meaning "live" is just a verb of the noun "obi" meaning "compound" or courtyard. It is also worthy to note that obi as a living quarter in Igbo has rank or levels... N that's why we have what is called "isi obi' meaning " head compound" where extended family members leave there own individual "obis" and gather to discuss issues or take council from the most senior member of the family or kindred who is usually the most senior male member of such family who inherited the original ancestral compound from where the other family members dispersed from... This now leads to the second meaning of obi in Igbo land

2...(obi- kingship) ... If you understand the first explained meaning of obi, you would have figured its relationship with kingship in Igbo context... Obi as with regards to king is more pronounced in kingship because the kings palace is where the elders of different kindreds and family clans of a particular village or town, leaving there own "isi obis (a kindreds head compound)" to gather at "obi Eze ( Kings court or compound)" representing their individual kindreds to discuss issues pertaining to the kingdom. Looking closely one can see the correlation between the meaning of obi as associated with kingship in igboland.Therefore the kings obi is seen as the obi of all obis in the community or one can rightly substitute the name of the community or kingdom to be for instance Obi of Agbor or Obi of Onitsha... One can now see how individual obis rose to the level of isi obi as with regards to kindreds and then graduated to highest level of the obi Eze as with regards to the king... One can also explain it to be like this ... The individual obi is just man lording over his household, isi obi is the male head of a kindred lording over the households dt made up the kindred why the obi Eze is the kings court ruling over their entire houseldholds in the kingdom in which the isi obis and individual obis are rightly under it! I hope that explains dt clearly...

3... ( obi- heart).... This also has a relationship with being "head" as with the above explained two meanings . in Igboland it is believe and rightly that human heart is the main engine of the human body and therefore seen as the centre life source of the human being and that's y in Igbo language the heart is called obi with its regard as the life source or head dt governs whether one is alive or dead... Normally when one is being checked to be alive or dead u check the heart beat.. Therefore the heart is the centre ruling other parts of the body therefore it is called obi in Igbo but the difference between this obi and the previous two is in its pronunciation . in pronouciation it tends to go down y the previous two sounds goes up in pronouciation.


I hope I did Justice to that and cleared none igbos who think obi king title has no Igbo origin!

It doesn't because all the parts of Anioma that has the Obi title don't use Obi in the sense you just elaborated it. All parts of Anioma that use the Obi title ie. Ika and Aniocha use Ogua, an Edo word, and not Obi. Which means if they wanted to use Palace as a title of their kings, they would automatically adopt Ogua as title. Obi means heart in Anioma but if the Edo word Ovbi which means child is not plausible as the origin of the title, if you consider the role the Oba played in the institution of Obi title, I don't see how see how heart will be. And the fact you elaborated on many possible meanings shows you're not sure of what you're saying. You're only guessing which one would be the possible origin of the title.

RedboneSmith:


You said: "And Obi in Igbo doesn't mean Palace."

Let me re-iterate: Obi in Igbo means palace. The word (obi) has layers of meaning, all of them interconnected. At its most basic level, it refers to the centre of authority in a household or a clan. By extension it refers to, yes, a palace.

But since my words are not good enough, I will attach shots taken from two Igbo dictionaries in my archives. The first shot is from a wordlist prepared by colonial anthropologist Northcote Thomas (who started working in the Igbo field in 1898) and published in 1913. The second is from a dictionary prepared by noted linguist Roger Blench, one of the most prolific scholars in the field of "Igboid" linguistics.

(NB: I see some posts here saying Obi means heart. That is a different obi, and it is accented as óbì. The 'Obi' in question here is òbí. They are different words.)

True, we do not use obi to mean palace in Ika, Aniocha and Oshimili. We use egua/ogua (Ika) or ogwa (Aniocha-Oshimili). And this is a local rendition of the Edo word for palace, eguae.

But isn't it a bit strange that you were willing a few days ago to accept that ovbi, a Bini word for child is the source of Obi when ovbi doesn't mean child in Ika or Enuani, but will not entertain Obi the Igbo for palace being etymologically related to Obi the word for king because Obi as palace is not used in Ika-Enuani? This, quite frankly, betrays an implicit bias that many of us (not just Ikas, but also a great many of us in Aniocha-Oshimili) show when discussions of our dual or tripartite heritage (Edo and Igbo, or Edo, Igbo and Igala) are being had.


Anyway, from a historical-linguistic standpoint, it is not difficult to explain why Anioma uses a different word than obi to mean palace, while possibly retaining (with a slight semantic change) the word (obi) for other uses. This often happens when a language draws heavily from two language-stocks (like Ika and Aniocha drew from Edo and Igbo), and inevitably leads to situations where there are two differently-sourced words meaning the same thing. Sometimes both words are retained like that; sometimes one of the words goes out of use; sometimes one of the words undergo semantic change to refer to something else, but usually remains close to the original meaning.

This happened a lot in the English language, when English began to mix with French following the Norman Conquest. Eg: the English took the French words for pig and lamb (pork and mutton), but modified their meanings, so that pork amd mutton don't mean pig and lamb in English, but only the dead meat of these animals. The egua-obi situation is seemingly similar to the pig-pork situation.

I have already asked twice that you try and come up with a reasonable translation of Ime Obi, but you've brushed that aside twice. A historical linguist will easily identify that phrase (Ime Obi) as containing a linguistic relict. A linguistic relict is a word usage that has managed to retain an older meaning of a word after the meaning of the word has changed in other regards.


You said I was making a speculation. I agree. I myself used the word 'plausible' in my other post, and have used the word 'possibly' a number of times in this one. But speculation or not, this is a far better explanation than all the Bini speculations I have heard concerning the origin of the word.

When one sees two words that are:

1. pronounced exactly the same (òbí, òbí),
2. have meanings that are close enough that differences are likely to be only semantic (palace/centre of authority, king),
3. come from languages that are recognised by all professional linguists in the field as belonging to the same language family (the Igboid language family),

one has to hold some bias not to strongly suspect that it was originally the same word.

My reasons for agreeing that the word Ovbi is origin of the title despite the fact that Ovbi doesn't at present have any meaning in Anioma is because of the role the Oba played in Instituting the Obi title and the fact that all the Kings with the Obi title are said to be descendants of the children of the Oba that went into exile for one reasons or the other. Tell me how the title Ovbi Oba doesn't make sense when literally speaking they were children of the Oba. Even the Igbos here can't dispute that because I heard them say many times that the Oba lorded his children on Igbo aborigines of Ika.

And your explanation about semantic change is another speculation which I'm sure you're aware of your bias here. There's no proof that any part of Anioma once used Obi in the sense of a place of gathering. As for your question about Imen Obi, I'll tell you that there are times that translating something word for word without knowing the history and origin of that thing is misleading. This is where your bias started from. You'll need to find out about the origin of the Imen Obi before you can get the correct meaning. Every royal term in Ika has a story and history surrounding it. You can't possibly attach any meaning to this without knowing the history surrounding it's first usage. So here is another speculation.

The dictionary you posted was simply talking about the Anioma Obi title. Some part of the explanation of the dictionary only described the Obi title as it's used in Anioma and no part of the East except those that have Anioma influence. Maybe now that has added to the meaning of the word. The mistake most Igbos do here is the assumption that any word shared between Anioma and the East must have an Eastern origin because they're majority but it's wrong. Many of the shared place names in Anioma and the East have Anioma origin. For example, many of the Ubulu bearing South East Communities have Anioma origin. I have to find out about the Abohs and others. But Igbos are meant to believe that once they see a shared community name between Anioma and the East, the Anioma communities are automatically the ones that adopted the name. This is wrong. Even some Edo words have Ika/Anioma Origin. and some Igbo words have Ika and other Anioma origin. But why do these guys think that no word comes from Anioma/Ika? I guess that's just one of the downside to being a minority. And any word we used must have Eastern or Edoid origin? Some of these words are indigenous Ika/Anioma words/names being adopted by the Binis and some adopted by the East.

Some words are of uncertain origin like Money is Igho in Bini, Egho in Ika and Ego in Igbo. Watch the way it's changing. There are many of such example that Edo and Igbo have similar word for something and Ika has something in between the Edo and Igbo for such word. It's possible some of the words have Ika origin.

And sometimes when Igbo and Edo have similar word for something, we either adopt the Igbo or the Bini variant for example, Egogo and Agogo, Okute and Okuta and many many other examples. It's also possible some of these words have Ika/Anioma origin.

Cire80:
all the Kings with the Obi title are said to be descendants of the children of the Oba that went into exile for one reasons or the other. Tell me how the title Ovbi Oba doesn't make sense when literally speaking they were children of the Oba. Even the Igbos here can't dispute that because I heard them say many times that the Oba lorded his children on Igbo aborigines of Ika.

Come on, you know very well that not ALL the Obis claim to be descendants of the Oba. The Obi of Ubulu-Uku makes no such claim, and Ubulu-Uku is probably one of the most ancient kingdoms in Anioma with over 26 kings on its kinglist. The Obi of Owa also doesn't claim to be a descendant of the Oba. Obi Efeizomor II has written a book where he reiterated what had been recorded in the Intelligence Reports, that the royal line traces its descent from Nri. The Obi of Ogwashi-Uku, another prominent kingdom also traces his descent from Nri.

In Oshimili, claims of descent from the Oba is even less. Our monarch in Illah, Obi Ogbelani most definitely does not claim Bini Oba descent.

So your statement that all Anioma Obis trace their descent from the Oba of Benin is quite extreme. Evidently, you are looking at a culturally heterogenous zone with Bini-tinted lenses, and consequently your views are likely to be quite coloured.

And your explanation about semantic change is another speculation which I'm sure you're aware of your bias here. There's no proof that any part of Anioma once used Obi in the sense of a place of gathering. As for your question about Imen Obi, I'll tell you that there are times that translating something word for word without knowing the history and origin of that thing is misleading. This is where your bias started from. You'll need to find out about the origin of the Imen Obi before you can get the correct meaning. Every royal term in Ika has a story and history surrounding it. You can't possibly attach any meaning to this without knowing the history surrounding it's first usage. So here is another speculation.

Again, yes, it is a postulation. Without written records that go far back in history, all we can do is postulate based on the information we have. What I have done all along is apply tested rules of historical linguistics on the question at hand. And to the best of my ability, i have done that objectively.

Bias is actually when you reject a theory without a better theory to replace it with, or without an error-proof argument as to why the theory is wrong. We probably wouldn't be having this argument if my theory favoured a Bini origin no matter how weak it sounded.

Please, what do you mean the dictionary was talking about the Anioma Obi title? The dictionaries clearly state that Obi is "King's house" or "palace", which has been my argument all the while, and which is something I have always known based on my experiences in the east. How is that talking about Anioma when we both know Anioma uses a different word for palace?

You said Igbo don't call palace Obi, and that is the only reason I showed you those dictionaries. The only reason.

There is no mystery in the Ego, Igho, Egho issue. Linguists know Yoruba, Edo and Igbo are related languages descended from a common protolanguage. They are calle YEAI languages;and you can look it up.

What this means is that just as Urhobo/Isoko, Bini, Esan have inherited some words in common from Proto-Edoid, Edoid, Igboid and Yoruboid have also inherited some words in common from proto-YEAI. One example is the word for money

Owo (Western Yoruba), Ogho (eastern Yoruba), Igho (Edoid), Egho (Ika), Ego (many Igbo dialects).

The relationship is easy to see; gh, in proto-Yoruba changing to w in Western Yoruba dialects.

The Ika form is informed by the location of Ikaland on the frontier between Edoid and Igboid, and not because the word was coined by Ika. None of the participating groups coined it. They inherited it in common.

RedboneSmith:
There is no mystery in the Ego, Igho, Egho issue. Linguists know Yoruba, Edo and Igbo are related languages descended from a common protolanguage. They are calle YEAI languages;and you can look it up.

What this means is that just as Urhobo/Isoko, Bini, Esan have inherited some words in common from Proto-Edoid, Edoid, Igboid and Yoruboid have also inherited some words in common from proto-YEAI. One example is the word for money

Owo (Western Yoruba), Ogho (eastern Yoruba), Igho (Edoid), Egho (Ika), Ego (many Igbo dialects).

The relationship is easy to see; gh, in proto-Yoruba changing to w in Western Yoruba dialects.

The Ika form is informed by the location of Ikaland on the frontier between Edoid and Igboid, and not because the word was coined by Ika. None of the participating groups coined it. They inherited it in common.

We never had anything like money during proto-Igboid or proto-Yoruboid period. Many of those terms emerged during slave trade.

Abagworo, like many Africans, you underestimate your ancestors. Comparative linguistics is a tool that has widely been used to assess the level of social development of many preliterate peoples. Linguistics like Robert Armstrong have applied it to African languages with very interesting results. In proto-YEAI times we had already attained the Neolithic stage of development, i.e, we were living in stone-age farming villages.

Apart from planting yams and beans, we kept livestock like goats and chicken and paddled canoes. We did buying and selling in markets (Yes, markets) and used money. What we don't know is what items served as money. It certainly wasn't cowries or manillas. Those came much later.

RedboneSmith:


Come on, you know very well that not ALL the Obis claim to be descendants of the Oba. The Obi of Ubulu-Uku makes no such claim, and Ubulu-Uku is probably one of the most ancient kingdoms in Anioma with over 26 kings on its kinglist. The Obi of Owa also doesn't claim to be a descendant of the Oba. Obi Efeizomor II has written a book where he reiterated what had been recorded in the Intelligence Reports, that the royal line traces its descent from Nri. The Obi of Ogwashi-Uku, another prominent kingdom also traces his descent from Nri.

In Oshimili, claims of descent from the Oba is even less. Our monarch in Illah, Obi Ogbelani most definitely does not claim Bini Oba descent.

So your statement that all Anioma Obis trace their descent from the Oba of Benin is quite extreme. Evidently, you are looking at a culturally heterogenous zone with Bini-tinted lenses, and consequently your views are likely to be quite coloured.



Again, yes, it is a postulation. Without written records that go far back in history, all we can do is postulate based on the information we have. What I have done all along is apply tested rules of historical linguistics on the question at hand. And to the best of my ability, i have done that objectively.

Bias is actually when you reject a theory without a better theory to replace it with, or without an error-proof argument as to why the theory is wrong. We probably wouldn't be having this argument if my theory favoured a Bini origin no matter how weak it sounded.

I know my use of 'all' on the extreme and I was about to modify that. Most would make more sense. But Ogwashi doesn't have a well defined monarchical system of Obis hip. The book purportedly written by the Obi of Owa was highly influenced by Onwuatuegwu. The Obi was just the figurehead writer. The reason a Igbo origin was ascribed to Odogwu was because it's a popular Igbo word. There was no history of a certain Odogwu from Nri that founded Owa. The story has always been of a certain Odugun the son of the founder of Ute Okpu from Bini being the founder of Owa. The people that conducted the intelligence report thought since Odogwu is a popular Igbo name, then Odugwu must be an Igbo man and Onwuatuegwu ascribed Nri to him. The people that conducted this intelligence report were ignorant that Odugun also means warrior in Edo. it's Edogun in Bini and Odugun in Esan. In fact, it's Edogun in Ute and Owa dialects of Ika language. The Nri version is a recent version of the origin of Owa. If I may ask, Who conducted the intelligence report you referred to? Owa people unanimously rejected the Obi's book because of the obvious Onwuatuegwu bias and influence and they also rejected the intelligence report and conducted a fresh intelligence report where they said the founder of Owa was Edogun from Bini and not any Odugwu from Nri. Which makes it another case of no definite agreed origin. I'm not on any side of the argument for now, just so you know. I'm just pointing out something to you.

Yes, I agree that something like this can't be discussed without bias and speculations. I completely agree with that. The reason for this argument is the Igbos that keep misleading people of how Obi is an Igbo title when it obviously doesn't exist in any of the East except those that have Anioma influence. I've never seen any Anioma say that Obi is an Edo word. In a situation where the origin of something is not completely known, coming up with a speculation and throwing around is misleading. For me, either of the side may be correct but I will never mention the Edo origin of Obi in my comments( despite it being more plausible to me) no matter the point I'm trying to make because of the existence of the Igbo version and I expect these guys to do that as well. Because I'll only bring up this Edo version when and only when they say Obi is an Igbo title.

You said I wouldn't be having this debate if you had given an Edo origin even if it didn't make sense? This shows you don't know me at all. I'm not misleading and I don't allow myself to be blinded by prejudice like most Igbos here. I've said that I hold you in high esteem despite the fact that we've argued a lot on Nairaland. I see some similarities in us that's why I said that. I comment based on personal conviction and never to mislead or pursue any agenda. When you said Ovie is a cognate of Ogie and not a corrupted form of Ovbie, didn't I agree with you on how that makes more sense ? I'll only dispute that if I have a more reasonable proof that it's actually from Ovbie and not Ogie. When probs was writing about how all of Ika and Ukwani are Edo with just a little Igbo influence, didn't I condemn his objectivity despite the fact he was arguing on the same line with me?

And what do you mean being biased is rejecting something without a superior argument? I gave you my reasons for rejecting it. My reasons for rejecting it makes lots of sense. Obi doesn't mean Palace in Igbo. Even if it does, it doesn't mean Palace in Anioma. From my research, It means a place of gathering in the family. Each household have an Obi. I've forgotten some things about this but the kingship part wasn't in the meaning. The dictionary you posted was from a research that was conducted which Anioma was part of the scope. They included the Anioma meaning of Obi in the dictionary. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Doesn't it make sense to you that Oba can give an Ovbi Oba title to Anioma kings when literally speaking most(if not all) of the first and Early kings (NB: first and early) to use the Obi title were direct descendants of children of the Oba?

Please I modified somethings in the post you quoted before you quoted it. An

RedboneSmith:
There is no mystery in the Ego, Igho, Egho issue. Linguists know Yoruba, Edo and Igbo are related languages descended from a common protolanguage. They are calle YEAI languages;and you can look it up.

What this means is that just as Urhobo/Isoko, Bini, Esan have inherited some words in common from Proto-Edoid, Edoid, Igboid and Yoruboid have also inherited some words in common from proto-YEAI. One example is the word for money

Owo (Western Yoruba), Ogho (eastern Yoruba), Igho (Edoid), Egho (Ika), Ego (many Igbo dialects).

The relationship is easy to see; gh, in proto-Yoruba changing to w in Western Yoruba dialects.

The Ika form is informed by the location of Ikaland on the frontier between Edoid and Igboid, and not because the word was coined by Ika. None of the participating groups coined it. They inherited it in common.

I didn't say it has Ika origin. I said some of these words shared between and Igbo and Ika have Ika origin but once they see any Ika words used in any part of the East, they conclude it must have an Eastern origin. I only used the Egho for another example and to make another point. And I hope you know that Owo is somehow Edoid.

RedboneSmith:
Please, what do you mean the dictionary was talking about the Anioma Obi title? The dictionaries clearly state that Obi is "King's house" or "palace", which has been my argument all the while, and which is something I have always known based on my experiences in the east. How is that talking about Anioma when we both know Anioma uses a different word for palace?

You said Igbo don't call palace Obi, and that is the only reason I showed you those dictionaries. The only reason.

You and I know how dictionaries are written. They pick a word and compile all the possible meanings of that word. Anioma was in the scope of the research and they included Obi being a place where the founder of a community and the Kings Palace because that's how it's being used in Anioma.

I still stand by my earlier comment on how many words being used by both Ika /Anioma and the East have Ika/Anioma origin. But these guys erroneously believe that every of these words must have Eastern origin. I agree that majority have Eastern origin but there are some that has been proven to be of Anioma origin. There are also others whose origin has been lost. But these guys don't ever agree on any having Anioma origin. Some Edo words possibly have Ika Origin too. Even some words shared between Edo and Igbo were passed from Edo to Igbo through Ika and some were passed from Edo to Igbo through Ika. Some have original Ika/Anioma original but passed to both Igbo and Edo at different times. I'm saying this because these guys are very quick to point out how a particular word also exist somewhere in the East, how there is an Ubulu and Aboh in the East ignoring the fact that the existence of such words and places might be because of migration and intermigration of people from Anioma to and also those places. Some of the people that migrated to those places might or might not be of Edo ancestry.

Cire80:
You and I know how dictionaries are written. They pick a word and compile all the possible meanings of that word. Anioma was in the scope of the research and they included Obi being a place where the founder of a community and the Kings Palace because that's how it's being used in Anioma.

I still stand by my earlier comment on how many words being used by both Ika /Anioma and the East have Ika/Anioma origin. But these guys erroneously believe that every of these words must have Eastern origin. I agree that majority have Eastern origin but there are some that has been proven to be of Anioma origin. There are also others whose origin has been lost. But these guys don't ever agree on any having Anioma origin. Some Edo words possibly have Ika Origin too. Even some words shared between Edo and Igbo were passed from Edo to Igbo through Ika and some were passed from Edo to Igbo through Ika. Some have original Ika/Anioma original but passed to both Igbo and Edo at different times. I'm saying this because these guys are very quick to point out how a particular word also exist somewhere in the East, how there is an Ubulu and Aboh in the East ignoring the fact that the existence of such words and places might be because of migration and intermigration of people from Anioma to and also those places. Some of the people that migrated to those places might or might not be of Edo ancestry.

Mr. Man stop muddling things up to suit ur every asinine conceptions and speculations... Saying u agree with sometins he said is just another ploy by u with hidden edges to subtly blackmail and coerce him into agreeing with your charade and fiasco submissions from obviously ur isolated cranium

Let me school you, People migrate from a more concentrated and denser areas to other lesser concentrated areas and that is why in history it is always claimed and rigthly that Pple with same name and characteristics of another Pple in a more denser or concenrated area must av come or migrated from that denser area and not the other way round... As people with common ancestry multiply and expand they move from their ancestral lands to other lands carrying the name of the place they r coming from, culture and borrow few things from the aborigines if they met any... East has a more dense and concentration of igbos than in Anioma and ika and therefore it is right to say , the Igbo language, culture, name of towns and so on only came to Anioma and ika because of the migrations from the igbos denser east to these lands and it can never be the other way round... The ubulus find in Anioma must have find Thr way out of east to the present Anioma land and reverse can't be the case....

As for the origin of Obi which is even my surname from my great great grand father... You just did what everybody expected u to do... Whip up sentiments with no ideological backing to suit ur antagonism.

U claim obis are only used in Anioma influenced part of igboland and it is laughable cos in my part we are not in any way close to any of the river line Igbo or had any stint with Bini or Anioma... But our king is known by the obi title and we answer it as names in its kingship meaning form.

Debating this with you only makes one look stupid ...it is tantamount to debating wether the person posting this is alive or dead... It makes no sense

Chysler:
As for the origin of Obi which is even my surname from my great great grand father... You just did what everybody expected u to do... Whip up sentiments with no ideological backing to suit ur antagonism.

U claim obis are only used in Anioma influenced part of igboland and it is laughable cos in my part we are not in any way close to any of the river line Igbo or had any stint with Bini or Anioma... But our king is known by the obi title and we answer it as names in its kingship meaning form.

Debating this with you only makes one look stupid ...it is tantamount to debating wether the person posting this is alive or dead... It makes no sense

What is the name of your town and what's the kingship history of your town? I've seen some cases where people that don't have the Obi title affix Obi in their name. Not all parts of Igboland use Igwe. now even those parts that don't use the Igwe title have started adopting it. Yorubas don't have the Oba title but you see how many kings in Yorubaland are called Oba or affix Oba to their name after their Original title same thing I've noticed with the Igbos. Those that are originally Ezes are now bearing Eze of Okpala, Igwe Okafor. Or Eze of Okpala, Obi Okafor and vice versa. Trace back these communities few decades ago, they don't use the title. and till now, they don't use the Obi title but they try to affix the Obi in their name because of the prestige attached to being an Obi.

Chysler:


Mr. Man stop muddling things up to suit ur every asinine conceptions and speculations... Saying u agree with sometins he said is just another ploy by u with hidden edges to subtly blackmail and coerce him into agreeing with your charade and fiasco submissions from obviously ur isolated cranium

Let me school you, People migrate from a more concentrated and denser areas to other lesser concentrated areas and that is why in history it is always claimed and rigthly that Pple with same name and characteristics of another Pple in a more denser or concenrated area must av come or migrated from that denser area and not the other way round... As people with common ancestry multiply and expand they move from their ancestral lands to other lands carrying the name of the place they r coming from, culture and borrow few things from the aborigines if they met any... East has a more dense and concentration of igbos than in Anioma and ika and therefore it is right to say , the Igbo language, culture, name of towns and so on only came to Anioma and ika because of the migrations from the igbos denser east to these lands and it can never be the other way round... The ubulus find in Anioma must have find Thr way out of east to the present Anioma land and reverse can't be the case....

This your comment is laughable. so because people mostly migrate from more densely populated places to less denser populated places, it's not possible for people to ever migrate from Anioma to the East? For your information, there are many towns in the East that trace their origin to Anioma. there are many cultures existing in the East that has Anioma origin. there are also words and names existing in the East today that have Anioma origin. it's even possible that the Ubulu Uku you used for your instance founded those Ubulu communities in the East. some

RedboneSmith:


Sigh.

If you had translated 'Ime Obi' for me, it would have aided this discussion. The 'obi' in 'Ime Obi' is not a person, is not 'a king'; it is a geographical location, and that is a very relevant point to note in all this. But I will come back to that.

Now to Ovbie. As far as I can ascertain, there is no word like that in Bini. The word is Ovbi, and it has nothing to do with kingship. It means child; no connotations of royalty whatsoever.

Ovie is not a corruption of this Ovbie (which is not even a true word to begin with; like I said the word is Ovbi.) Rather Ovie in Urhobo/Isoko is cognate with Ogie in Bini and Ojie/Oje in Esan. They all mean the same thing. Ovbie/Ovbi is not in the picture at all.

Note that I said 'cognate'. There was no borrowing involved. All these languages are related (Edoid languages), and as such inherited certain words in common from their common ancestor language (Proto-Edoid). Of course due to the linguistic phenomenon of sound shifts over the course of centuries, the 'j' in the Esan version of the word now varies as 'g' in Bini and 'v' in Urhobo and Isoko.


Coming to Obi. Based on this, if you want to claim that Obi came from Bini, then ovbi (child) is a very very weird source --- it did not even serve as the source in the Ovie example as you thought.

An Igbo origin for Obi is most plausible, although I will still give Anioma (more specifically Aniocha) credit for semantic innovation in the way the word came to be used in the Anioma area.

'Obi' (same intonation, same everything with Anioma 'Obi' ) in Igboland means the central building or court from which the head of a household, or the head of a kindred or a quarter or a clan lords it over his dependents. In loose terms, 'Obi' is a palace. Seeing any relationship with kingship yet? Referring to someone by something it is closely associated with is a common metonymic device, eg. Pharaoh = Great House.

When you understand that 'Obi' started out as a fixed place/location before it became a person, 'Ime Obi' begins to make sense.

Oga leave long grammar, you too sabi English. Obi simply means the heart of a house or the heart of an extended family compound in ancient Igbo which can equally be used to refer to the head of the family.

Today, we have some ancient communities that bear names like Okoro-obi or Ogbe-obi which means that they are the head of the clans where they are located.

Cire80:
You and I know how dictionaries are written. They pick a word and compile all the possible meanings of that word. Anioma was in the scope of the research and they included Obi being a place where the founder of a community and the Kings Palace because that's how it's being used in Anioma.

If Anioma was in the scope, they wouldn't have entered Obi as 'King's house/palace'. They would have entered it as 'King'. You yourself has said it does not mean 'Palace/King's house' in Anioma.

Again: telling you as someone that has actually lived in the east, Obi means palace/centre of authority among these people.

RedboneSmith:


If Anioma was in the scope, they wouldn't have entered Obi as 'King's house/palace'. They would have entered it as 'King'. You yourself has said it does not mean 'Palace/King's house' in Anioma.

Again: telling you as someone that has actually lived in the east, Obi means palace/centre of authority among these people.

I've spent some time in different parts of the East and I've asked many people what Obi means and the answers I got can't be translated directly as Palace but something close to that. I got many different answers.

When you see the dictionary define Obi as ancestral house of the father (founder) of a village, and Ime Obi and the definition given for it, you will understand that Anioma was part of the scope of the research.

As I'm typing this right now, I'm in a flat with up to 8 Ika people and two Igbo people from two different States and they don't understand what we're speaking. I asked them if they understood and honestly they don't. They're like strangers in our midst.

Our worldview and idiosyncrasies is very different.

gerg:
This your comment is laughable. so because people mostly migrate from more densely populated places to less denser populated places, it's not possible for people to ever migrate from Anioma to the East? For your information, there are many towns in the East that trace their origin to Anioma. there are many cultures existing in the East that has Anioma origin. there are also words and names existing in the East today that have Anioma origin. it's even possible that the Ubulu Uku you used for your instance founded those Ubulu communities in the East. some

You still running round the same centre, I maintain all igbo speaking communities outside east migrated from same source from the east and it can't be the other way round... Pple migrated to areas where they can have vast free land for cultivation, habitation and rearing of livestock... Pple can't leave their land to go and settle in a land where their r already many Pple settling unless is a forced relocation maybe by war or conflicts where they seek asylum and non of such has been heard in the tales of the towns u mentioned and even I have never heard any town in the 5 eastern states saying they migrated from Anioma...