I am really interested in understanding how belief persists and how believers surmount inconsistencies in their beliefs. Reading the NT when I was a Christian I was amazed to find Jesus's words in Matthew 5 and Luke 6 about letting your enemies beat you and take your possessions. I'd never heard a minister or pastor recommend it as very good advice from God at all. . . .I wondered how many Christians believe in or practice these nonresistance to evil or harm teachings of Jesus. . .Add to Matthew 5and Luke 6 the beatitudes and the rebuke to the disciple who cut off the High Priest's slave's ear and you can make the case that Jesus taught complete pacifism. Some Christians claim that the teaching to submit to evildoers is no longer binding, or they say that nonresistance to harm or attack can itself be an evil in a given situation. . . .

So to the Christians out there how do you interpret the issue? Specifically the ones below. . . . .

1- Does Luke 6:27-31 command you to submit to beatings, what we call obtaining in Nigerian slang and robbery? If not, why not?

2- Would you submit to a physical assault without resisting/fighting back? If not, why not?

3- If Christians are not to resist beatings, is it also their burden to submit to being murdered? If not, why not?

4- If Luke 6 is no longer binding on Christians, are there other teachings of Jesus which have expired in application? Which ones? How do you know?

5- If pacifism is not the intent of Jesus's teachings, which of his quoted words show this?

6- Should Christian Nations have a military, and should Christians participate?

7- Since Christians argue both sides of pacifism(like you guys do on both sides of every issue)doesn't this indicate that the NT and the recorded teachings of Jesus are an incomplete and ambiguous "revelation" at best? If you are never to pick up arms, in any circumstance, why was this recorded?

Most Christians who I have discussed with who oppose pacifism did so based on a lot of Old Testament rationalization. My take on this is that the Bible is a funny thing parts are dismissed when convenient and then invoked when convenient.

Reading in context,

Luk 6:27  "To you who are ready for the truth, I say this: Love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst.
Luk 6:28  When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer for that person.
Luk 6:29  If someone slaps you in the face, stand there and take it. If someone grabs your shirt, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it.
Luk 6:30  If someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more t'it-for-tat stuff. Live generously.
Luk 6:31  "Here is a simple rule of thumb for behavior: Ask yourself what you want people to do for you; then grab the initiative and do it for them!
Luk 6:32  If you only love the lovable, do you expect a pat on the back? Run-of-the-mill sinners do that.
Luk 6:33  If you only help those who help you, do you expect a medal? Garden-variety sinners do that.
Luk 6:34  If you only give for what you hope to get out of it, do you think that's charity? The stingiest of pawnbrokers does that.
Luk 6:35  "I tell you, love your enemies. Help and give without expecting a return. You'll never--I promise--regret it. Live out this God-created identity the way our Father lives toward us, generously and graciously, even when we're at our worst.

Which plainly teaches a pacifist approach to life. But does that mean we should get ourselves beaten up by an assaulter, murdered in vain or let a robber take everything we possess? That is taking things too far, because Jesus was teaching moral principles here, and not legal ones. The robber, assaulter or murderer is a criminal, and he will face the consequences of his actions;

Ecc 10:8  He who digs a pit [for others] will fall into it, and whoever breaks through a fence or a [stone] wall, a serpent will bite him. [Ps. 57:6.]

Since the Christian lives in the society, the societal protection rules against criminals will also hold for the Christian. I believe Jesus was discussing moral values with respect to conflict resolution here, and not how to deal with criminals, or asking us to go out looking for trouble.

As for the military, isn't the military also under the control of the society in which the Christian lives? Does the military stand on its own? Is it not a JOB for which the guy is paid? I believe soldiers that are Christians should follow their superiors and cleanly - or brutally if necessary - execute their nation's enemy when necessary. Therein lies their loyalty. It's simple business ethics, and not a personal ethic. If that same military guy goes around wasting others, besides as instructed in war, he has long stepped out of line.

So, what is the expected overall conduct of the Christian?

Mat 10:16  Behold, I am sending you out like sheep in the midst of wolves; be wary and wise as serpents, and be innocent (harmless, guileless, and without falsity) as doves. [Gen. 3:1.]

[size=13pt]Mat 10:16  "Stay alert. This is hazardous work I'm assigning you. You're going to be like sheep running through a wolf pack, so don't call attention to yourselves. Be as cunning as a snake, inoffensive as a dove. [/size]

^^ I think you were the one that read the whole passage out of context. . . . .

Luk 6:29 If someone slaps you in the face, stand there and take it.

Poster i worder why you want to know about this since you are not a christian for now, that really funny, knowing the fact that this is a christian forum.

nice-guy10:

Poster i worder why you want to know about this since you are not a christian for now, that really funny, knowing the fact that this is a christian forum.

Who made this a christian forum?

mazaje:

I am really interested in understanding how belief persists and how believers surmount inconsistencies in their beliefs. 

I, too, am interested in how 'unbelievers', whatever they are, persist in their unbelief.
The inconsistencies in the materialists worldview, to which a lot of 'unbelievers' like Mazaje subscribe, also puzzles me! Is it likely that it is just human nature?

Mazaje, as a representative of this unfortunate group of beings, perhaps you will be kind enough to give us a bit of insight into how you persist in your unbelief.

The intellectual dishonesty of some unbelievers amazes me.No biblical Scholar theist or nontheist, would take those verses literally especially when read in the whole context.

'fly like a butterfly Sting like a bee.' Mohamed ali.

Was Ali instructing people to attempt to fly and sting people like bees!

beneli:

I, too, am interested in how 'unbelievers', whatever they are, persist in their unbelief.

Can you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies, and societal acceptance?

The inconsistencies in the materialists worldview, to which a lot of 'unbelievers' like Mazaje subscribe, also puzzles me! Is it likely that it is just human nature?

What are the inconsistencies?

Mazaje, as a representative of this unfortunate group of beings, perhaps you will be kind enough to give us a bit of insight into how you persist in your unbelief.

The moment you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural myths written by men about different deities and societal influence then I might begin to consider you as some one that has an idea of he is talking about. . . .

mazaje:

^^ I think you were the one that read the whole passage out of context. . . . .

Luk 6:29 If someone slaps you in the face, stand there and take it.

Nah i think you are the one who has a deliberately fraudulent approach to understanding the bible. Mavenbox astutely explained this verse in a short sentence . . .

Mavenb0x:

Which plainly teaches a pacifist approach to life. But does that mean we should get ourselves beaten up by an assaulter, murdered in vain or let a robber take everything we possess? That is taking things too far, [size=14pt]because Jesus was teaching moral principles here, and not legal ones.[/size] The robber, assaulter or murderer is a criminal, and he will face the consequences of his actions;

You live in a society that is governed by laws. Anyone who slaps you is guilty of assault and must be punished according to the law. The new testament clearly advocates that even christians should submit to laws of the land and constituted authority.

davidylan:

Nah i think you are the one who has a deliberately fraudulent approach to understanding the bible. Mavenbox astutely explained this verse in a short sentence . . .

Even you guys know very well that this teaching is untenable and have decided to abandon it. . . .Jesus was clear when he said what ever he said. . . .If some one slaps you he said turn the other check not report him to the authorities is what was written. . . .Reporting to the authorities is going against the words of Jesus. . . .If some one takes your shirt you are to give him your coat is what was written not report to the authorities. . . . .

You live in a society that is governed by laws. Anyone who slaps you is guilty of assault and must be punished according to the law. The new testament clearly advocates that even christians should submit to laws of the land and constituted authority.

If you read the words of Jesus in context of the supposed time then it will make sense. . . .Jesus was an apocalyptic end of day preacher who was talking about the end of the world that was at hand and was supposed to come during the generation of his followers so why put up a defense? The Kingdom of Heaven was already at hand anyway.

mazaje:

Can you point to the existence of any god that is independent of manmade stories, cultural mythologies, and societal acceptance?

Yes i can.

But then the subjective reality that I would point to is outside of your cognitive abilities to appreciate, anyway, so we’d end up where we started off! This is not meant as an insult by the way. It is a 'fact' that some scientists argue, stating that belief in God is an evolutionary function of the brain and not anything really that special. They say that those of us, who have religious experiences, have parts of our frontal and temporal regions slightly over stimulated! 

But the question was actually about why YOU, Mazaje, persist in your unbelief, in spite of the fact that YOU have no evidence for the Non existence of God.

mazaje:

What are the inconsistencies?

Here are some. Matter cannot spring out of nothingness. Dust can never ever give rise to life even if you give it 5 billion years to do so!  Human consciousness is not explained by biochemistry etc etc. Yet you still hold on to your clearly ridiculous dogmas that somebody less cultured would cast vituperative aspersions on!

mazaje:

The moment you point to the existence of any god that is independent of manmade stories, cultural myths written by men about different deities and societal influence then I might begin to consider you as some one that has an idea of he is talking about. . . .

My friend, I have an idea of what I am talking about, alright. It’s you who needs a bit more cognitive stimulation, in the neurophysiological sense of the words, to get the hang of what I am on about. Otherwise it will continue to elude you!

beneli forget it . . . mazaje wasnt asking questions at all. Merely trying to force his own warped opinions on the bible.

Actually, I take the teachings of Jesus literally there, though I find it an extremely hard teaching to practice. Yet I believe in the maxim of 'resist not evil'.

beneli:

Yes i can.

Then go ahead and do so. . . . .

But then the subjective reality that I would point to is outside of your cognitive abilities to appreciate, anyway, so we’d end up where we started off! This is not meant as an insult by the way. It is a 'fact' that some scientists argue, stating that belief in God is an evolutionary function of the brain and not anything really that special. They say that those of us, who have religious experiences, have parts of our frontal and temporal regions slightly over stimulated! 

What you are saying here is that your god exists ONLY in your preconceived imaginations. . . .Only your mind and emotions "feel" or detect this god that you claim exists very funny indeed. . . 

But the question was actually about why YOU, Mazaje, persist in your unbelief, in spite of the fact that YOU have no evidence for the Non existence of God.

You have not provided ANY evidence to show that any god exists any where, My evidence for the non existence of any god is that no god can be shown to exists on its own independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies written by men about different deities and societal acceptance along with their claims and influence. . . .

Here are some. Matter cannot spring out of nothingness.

What if matter was uncreated and eternal? I don't know but it is possible because no one knows. . .

Dust can never ever give rise to life even if you give it 5 billion years to do so!

 

Have you lived for 5 billion years to really know this? Dust can never give rise to life but you believe that the voice of an unknown, imaginary and undetected deity who nobody can even describe used words of hebrew to create all the birds we see around eh?. . . .Interesting. . . .

Human consciousness is not explained by biochemistry etc etc.

What best explains human consiousness than scientific studies and explanations? Have your found evidence for the mythical soul yet? Where is your evidence for this?

Yet you still hold on to your clearly ridiculous dogmas that somebody less cultured would cast vituperative aspersions on!
My friend, I have an idea of what I am talking about, alright. It’s you who needs a bit more cognitive stimulation, in the neurophysiological sense of the words, to get the hang of what I am on about. Otherwise it will continue to elude you!

My friend you have NO idea of what you are talking about. . . .I will only believe that you know what you are talking about when you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies, societal acceptance and claims. . . . .

davidylan:

beneli forget it . . . mazaje wasnt asking questions at all. Merely trying to force his own warped opinions on the bible.

Did Jesus not know that slapping another person was an assualt? Did he tell his followers to turn the other cheek, stand there and take it? YES. . .So how is this a warped opinion of the bible?

The vast majority of Christians are completely hypocritical on some of Jesus' teachings. Pacifism is just one of them, Jesus's teaching with regards to wealth is another issue that Christians tend to ignore completely.

mazaje:

If you read the words of Jesus in context of the supposed time then it will make sense. . . .Jesus was an apocalyptic end of day preacher who was talking about the end of the world that was at hand and was supposed to come during the generation of his followers so why put up a defense? The Kingdom of Heaven was already at hand anyway.

This is very true, Based on the NT the message was for the followers of Jesus to endure for an eternal glorius aferlife that was already at hand which was to come during the generation of some of the followers at that time, If you are a slave at that time, be a good one. No need for rebellion because the kingdom was already at time, As a new religion or teaching and the times he would have lived in it makes perfect sense to me to tell people not to repay evil with evil or turn the other Cheek when they are under attack.

teeroy:

A man parading himself to be a pastor with the name, Dr. Paul Ruby Borngreat and formerly with the Believers Loveword Ministry is currently being hunted by the Nigerian Police Force for the theft of a hefty amount of foreign currency. The public and churches in particular are warned to be at alert as this man moves from one church to the other with the intent of defrauding and stealing fom innocent indivioduals.

He was last seen in Abuja in mid- January 2010 but is currently believed to be in the Lagos metropolis. Any member of th public who sees him should either report to the nearest police station or call the following numbers; 07036761985, 08059261828 and 08067713196. There will be an apprecable reward should such information lead to his apprehension.

Find below a recent photograph of him.

And you believe that the pastor can be found here on NL religion section?

@mazaje st Augustine was inspired by the holy spirit to enunciate,the just war theory,

chukwudi44:

@mazaje st Augustine was inspired by the holy spirit to enunciate,the just war theory,

MAYBE THIS FORMER CHRIST EMBASSY PASTOR CUD BE ONE OF THE XTIANS POSTING ON THIS NL RELIGION FORUM ,
WE MUST CATCH THIS THIEF SOON,

^^ and how do you propose to do that?

Does your post make sense to you btw.

blackcypha:

MAYBE THIS FORMER CHRIST EMBASSY PASTOR CUD BE ONE OF THE XTIANS POSTING ON THIS NL RELIGION FORUM ,
WE MUST CATCH THIS THIEF SOON,

so if a black man commits a crime somewhere, could the criminal possibly be you since you're a black man and also have a black user id.

mazaje:

Then go ahead and do so. . . . .

What you are saying here is that your god exists ONLY in your preconceived imaginations. . . .Only your mind and emotions "feel" or detect this god that you claim exists very funny indeed. . .

You have not provided ANY evidence to show that any god exists any where, My evidence for the non existence of any god is that no god can be shown to exists on its own independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies written by men about different deities and societal acceptance along with their claims and influence. . . .


What if matter was uncreated and eternal? I don't know but it is possible because no one knows. . .


Have you lived for 5 billion years to really know this? Dust can never give rise to life but you believe that the voice of an unknown, imaginary and undetected deity who nobody can even describe used words of hebrew to create all the birds we see around eh?. . . .Interesting. . . .

What best explains human consiousness than scientific studies and explanations? Have your found evidence for the mythical soul yet? Where is your evidence for this?

My friend you have NO idea of what you are talking about. . . .I will only believe that you know what you are talking about when you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies, societal acceptance and claims. . . . .

mazaje:

Can you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural mythologies, and societal acceptance?

What are the inconsistencies?

The moment you point to the existence of any god that is independent of man made stories, cultural myths written by men about different deities and societal influence then I might begin to consider you as some one that has an idea of he is talking about. . . .

@mazaje
i am always LMAO anytime i read your responses to these religious zealots, o boy u neva answer me na philosophy or psychogy or metaphysics u study?

tpia.:

^^ and how do you propose to do that?

Does your post make sense to you btw.



so if a black man commits a crime somewhere, could the criminal possibly be you since you're a black man and also have a black user id.

look the guy is already known with his picture all ova the net , abi u no get eyes to see?
if u go out 2day and c this face in publk wont u be able 2 identify him?

^^

Na geology and minning I study for Naija ohh. . . .I come obodo ibo come study software engineering and management come add engineering managemet join am(Msc). . . .Na IT man i be ohh. . . .

NONVIOLENCE


A snake in the village had bitten so many people that few dared go into the fields.

Such was the Master's holiness that he was said to have tamed the snake and persuaded it to practice the discipline of nonviolence.

It did not take long for the villagers to discover that the snake had become harmless.

They took to hurling stones at it and dragging it about by its tail.

The badly battered snake crawled into the Master's house one night to complain. . .


Said the Master: "Friend, you have stopped frightening people - that's bad"!

Said the snake: "But it was you who taught me to practice the discipline of nonviolence"!

Said the Master: "I told you to stop hurting - not to stop hissing !"

Imhotep, in no small way I like the way you think!

Mavenb0x:

Imhotep, in no small way I like the way you think!

@Mavenb0x
Thanks for the compliments. I myself enjoy reading your posts and the good questions you raise. Thanks.

@imhotep: You're welcome sir. My deepest respect! I know your worldview, but I like how you always endeavour to state your case transparently.

The Master in these tales of yours is not a single person. He is a Hindu Guru, a Zen Roshi, a Taoist Sage, a Jewish Rabbi, a Christian Monk, a Sufi Mystic. he is Lao-tzu and Socrates. Buddha and Jesus, Zarathustra and Mohammed. His teaching is found in the seventh century B.C. and the twentieth century A.D. His wisdom belongs to East and West alike. Do his historical antecedents really matter? History, after all, is the record of appearances, not reality; of doctrines, not of Silence.

Mavenb0x:

@imhotep: You're welcome sir. My deepest respect! I know your worldview, but I like how you always endeavour to state your case transparently.

The Master in these tales of yours is not a single person. He is a Hindu Guru, a Zen Roshi, a Taoist Sage, a Jewish Rabbi, a Christian Monk, a Sufi Mystic. he is Lao-tzu and Socrates. Buddha and Jesus, Zarathustra and Mohammed. His teaching is found in the seventh century B.C. and the twentieth century A.D. His wisdom belongs to East and West alike. Do his historical antecedents really matter? History, after all, is the record of appearances, not reality; of doctrines, not of Silence.

@Mavenb0x

Beautiful. Beautiful . . .

I am glad to see that the stories are making sense to you. There is a great depth to them. . . and interesting things happen when you pray through these stories.

It is said that the shortest distance between a human being and Truth is a story.

@poster, ur questions are off point