Empiree:



****Modified****

It seems to me that you guys always have problems with terms or language used by sufis to describe same thing Allah mentioned in the Quran. Kashf, firasa are what Quran terms "basira" i:e visual acumen, perception. So how is this innovation that came generations later?.

You are incredible newnas

Actually kashf is in d Quran sef, it means removing of veil from the eye. Sura 50 vs 22 fa'kashf'na ankaa gitaaka

emekaRaj:


Actually kashf is in d Quran sef, it means removing of veil from the eye. Sura 50 vs 22 fa'kashf'na ankaa gitaaka

Allahu Akbar. See your life newnas?. This is what you called "bidah"?. Thanks emekaraj

Newnas:


Well, anyone who reads the hadith of Aishah RodiyaLLaahu anha will see that there's no such thing as Bidah in worldly matters.

Whoever innovates into this affair of ours what is not from it, will have it rejected. (Bukharee and Muslim)

Ponder on the bolded, what's "our affair" it's Islam.

Am not even ready to battle you yet. I am just watching drama btw you two. Whoever is the winner should challenge the sufis

I have not submitted my opinion on any of your arguments except to interject intermittently. Well, concerning what you said, we know Islam covers ALL aspects of life including how to eat,m drink, sleep, walk, even how to wear shoes, cloth and the list goes on. But i have not really engaged you yet. Let me fold my hands and watch you further

ikupakuti:
^^^

Good!

#Did the holy prophet (saw) claimed what that sahaba did is bid‘a or is it just your own understanding ? Any back-up from kitab & sunnah to substantiate the accuracy of this your understanding as the definition of bid‘a ?

Imam Ash-shaatibi wrote in his book al-i'tisaam:

فالبدعة إذن عبارة عن: طريقة في الدين مخترعة تضاهي الشرعيّة، يُقصد بالسلوك عليها المبالغة في التعبد لله تعالى

(As for the word) "al-bid'ah" then, is an expression of: A path taken in religion, Which is invented, and resembles/looks(like) the Shari'ah, and by whose practice exaggeration in worshipping Allaah, the Exalted, is intended.

Where did he get this ta'rif(definition) from?

Allaah says in Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 27:

ثُمَّ قَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِرُسُلِنَا وَقَفَّيْنَا بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْإِنجِيلَ وَجَعَلْنَا فِي قُلُوبِ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُ رَأْفَةً وَرَحْمَةً وَرَهْبَانِيَّةً ابْتَدَعُوهَا مَا كَتَبْنَاهَا عَلَيْهِمْ إِلَّا ابْتِغَاءَ رِضْوَانِ اللَّهِ فَمَا رَعَوْهَا حَقَّ رِعَايَتِهَا فَآتَيْنَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنْهُمْ أَجْرَهُمْ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ

Then We made Our apostles to follow in their footsteps, and We sent Isa son of Mariam afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy; and (as for) monkery(i.e not getting married), they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-- only to seek Allah's pleasure, but they did not observe it with its due observance; so We gave to those of them who believed their reward, and most of them are transgressors.
(English - Shakir)

via iQuran

From this, we see that bidah is anything done as an act of worship to get closer to Allaah and seeking his pleasure.....

Abu israa'il was doing that as an act of worship and to seek the pleasure of Allaah, thus it is bidah....

#Can you bring a reference where the holy prophet (saw) called that type of act bid‘a ?

It was narrated from Aa'ishah radiyallaahu anha,

من عمل عملا ليس عليه امرنا فهو رد

Whoever does an act which we've not enjoined regarding it, it will rejected...

From the hadeeth we saw that the prophet rejected everything Abu israail did except for the fasting, so it becomes clear that everything that were rejected were actually bid'aat.....

#Is this the type of proof the scholars quoted by @Newnas banked on ? Any reference to that from them ?

I first heard that proof from an audio, which was actually a phone conversation between some brothers here in Nigeria and shaykh saleem hilaalee.......

#Mind you, thats also a sahaba (salaf), had he done that after the demise of the holy prophet (saw), other sahabas & taab‘in might have emulated him & so on down the line, I hope you get where I driving @ ?

Well, it did not happen. Moreover, the sahabas were fierce against innovation after the death of the prophet, the likes of Umar, ibn Abbas, ibn mas'ood as so on, Umar would beat an innovator, umar once threatened to beat a particular salaf(I've forgotten if he was a sahabi or taabi'i) if he does not provide proof for a matter he spoke about, the point is, you can't be followed without proof when you are not hujjah like the prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, ibn Abbas once said

يوشك ان تنزل عليكم حجارة من السماء اقول لكم قال رسول الله صلى عليه وسلم و تقولون قال ابو بكر و عمر؟

Also, the prophet said, Allaah will not let his ummah agree on misguidance

All these points the fact that Allaah will preserve his religion from innovations up to the day of recompense....

#So, this correction from the Nabi (saw) was it out of compassion to the sahaba or to sever a bid‘a act ? Any Proof ?

You are asking the same question in different ways....

Of course to reject his act of bidah and I've already given proof for that....

emekaRaj:


Actually kashf is in d Quran sef, it means removing of veil from the eye. Sura 50 vs 22 fa'kashf'na ankaa gitaaka

The meaning of kashf in that verse is not close to the meaning intended by the Sufis.

A single proof for that is the fact that the verse is talking about the hereafter but the Sufis claim kashf in this world.

This is one thing and that is another. Don't get it mixed up.

Newnas:


The meaning of kashf in that verse is not close to the meaning intended by the Sufis.

A single proof for that is the fact that the verse is talking about the hereafter but the Sufis claim kashf in this world.

This is one thing and that is another. Don't get it mixed up.

Do you then reject Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah when he said:

We do not deny that people may experience some kind of kashf, whether when awake or in their dreams when the soul is less connected to the body, either by means of spiritual practices or otherwise. This is the psychological kashf which is the first type of kashf.


^^^
Is he talking about hereafter in this statement of his?. I noticed you refrained from saying on this. This is third time I brought it up.

You people only focused on external observation of religious text and neglected internal reality. Quran was not revealed only to be read mechanically, rather it was revealed "tibihana likuli shei" i:e to explain ALL things. Quran also said only men of understanding grasped its message.

Newnas:


The meaning of kashf in that verse is not close to the meaning intended by the Sufis.

A single proof for that is the fact that the verse is talking about the hereafter but the Sufis claim kashf in this world.

This is one thing and that is another. Don't get it mixed up.

No...... U got it wrong their, God was talking to the kafir, remember he said, sumun, bukumun, umyun. That they are deaf, dumb, and blind. So on dat day God will remove d viel so they can see d truth.

BUT in this world God gave believers especially awliya lah kashf and ilham. Like Empiree said Kashf is just a word dat means to remove the illusion of dis material world and see its artificiality.

There are diferent type of kashf though.

#As reported by MUSLIM: hadith #1017 also reported by ibn majah, tirmidhi from JABIR bn ABDULLAH:-

He who INTRODUCED some good practice in ISLAM which was followed after him, he would be ensured of reward like one who follow it without their reward being diminish in any respect, also whoever INTRODUCES a bad pracrice in ISLAM will be ensure of the punishment of those who follow it.

AbdelKabir:


وَرَهْبَانِيَّةً ابْتَدَعُوهَا مَا كَتَبْنَاهَا عَلَيْهِمْ إِلَّا ابْتِغَاءَ رِضْوَانِ اللَّهِ فَمَا رَعَوْهَا حَقَّ رِعَايَتِهَا

and (as for) monkery(i.e not getting married), they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-only to seek Allah's pleasure[b], but they did not observe it with its due observance;[/b]

First of all, in this vs you quoted as proof for that IMAM, GOD clearly didnt knock them for the bid‘a of MONKERY but for their lack of staying true to it.
The anecdote of MARYAM (as) points to the fact that MONKERY is not a bad BID‘A in their sharia for NABI ZAKARIAH(as) was her guide in it Q3:35-37, So, in reference to that hadith up there, thats bid‘a hassanah. Meaning a path can be invented to please ALLAH so far it conforms with the sharia. I can provide a list of such from the sahaba, both before & after the demise of the NABI(saw). So, you are yet to backup your understanding of bid‘a.

Abu israa'il was doing that as an act of worship and to seek the pleasure of Allaah

The hadith of bukhari in his book of TIBB from ABU SAID L KHUDRI, where some sahaba INNOVATED the recitation of fatiha to cure a scorpion sting (helping people is an act of worship that attracts reward) & was commended by the NABI(saw) points to fact that the NABI(saw) didnt reject the act of ABU ISRAII based on INNOVATION.

#So, you are yet to link that unanimous concensus of the scholars to kitab & sunnah as demanded by Q4:59, that IMAM‘S opinion on bid‘a doesnt tally with the vs you quoted.

#UMAR (ra) is the father of bid‘a hassanah.

What is Bid'ah?

This has been a great problem for the so-called modern day Ahlu Sunnah with all their factions to the fact that each and everyone of them continue to takfiri the other.

# The point is Bid'ah is Bid'ah. There is nothing like it can be divided into parts. And as Nabi says, "Every Bid'ah is misguidance and every misguidance leads to hell". Here there is no room for exception.

# So, its either something is a Bid'ah or its not.

# Does Nabi defined/explain Bid'ah?

Imam Bukhari documents:

Narrated Aisha:

Allah's Messenger (s) said, "If somebody innovates something which is not in harmony with the principles of our religion, that thing is rejected."

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2697
In-book reference : Book 53, Hadith 7
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 49, Hadith 861
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/53/7


# In a more explainable term, Nabi was reported to have says:

Imam Muslim documents:

Jabir reports:

"...Thereupon Allah's Messenger (s) said: He who introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed after him (by people) he would be assured of
reward like one who followed it, without their rewards being
diminished in any respect. And he who introduced some evil practice in Islam which had been followed subsequently (by others), he would be required to bear the burden like that of one who followed this (evil practice) without their's being diminished in any respect.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 1017 e
In-book reference : Book 47, Hadith 26
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 34, Hadith 6466
https://sunnah.com/muslim/47/26

# Is there a need to do any further explanation on these hadith especially the second one? It is self explanatory.


# If you introduce anything into Islam, so far it does not change the principle of anything in the deen, that is never a Bid'ah. It doesn't matter whether Nabi or sahabah/Sahabi practiced it. Ikupakuti has given few examples.


DEDUCTION: Anything that Allah and His Nabi specifically forbid, it is outrightly Haram. And anything Allah and His Nabi did not mention, obviously they did not forget, nobody has the right to forbid it or tag it Bid'ah. This is where Ulama usually bring out opinion and ijtihad based on their understanding of Quran and Sunnah. However, their ijtihad is not bind (must) on anybody to follow.


1. For example, Tasbih (beads) for dhikr.

# Some say it is Bid'ah because Nabi did not use it. That he only used fingers. Our question is: did he forbid it?. Interestingly, some sahabah used pebbles, seeds of dates to count during dhikr.

The basics, the principle remain the same, that is Dhikr e.g Allahu Akbar 33 etc. How you get it done, its left to you.


# Some says, he asked one of his wives to use hands. Did he forbid the "beads" she was initially using or tagged it haram?

# Its a matter of if you are comfortable with fingers, used it. If you are not, use a device. Today we use Microphone, megaphone, loudspeaker to make adhan, and waasi. Those things (adhan, Quran, waasi) remain the same in their basics and principles. Microphone, loudspeaker etc just like Tasbih are just an aiding device to get the job done easily.


2. Surat al-Fatiha for shifa (cure).

In a popular sahih hadith Nabi sent some group of sahabah to a village...The head of the village was stung by a snake or scorpion(?). One of the sahabah recited surah Fatiha on the spot, and the man became healed. When they narrated this to Nabi, he only said with happiness and approval, "how did you know that works in such situation?!


# Nabi did not instruct that Sahabi to practice anything like that. The Sahabi only used his senses PERHAPS based on the basics and principles of the Qur'an that, " We have revealed the Qur'an, in it is cure, and mercy for the believers...".


3. Bilal was confronted by Nabi one day, and asked, "O Bilal, what have you engaged yourself in that I can hear your foot steps in al-Jannah". Bilal replied, "nothing, O Prophet, except that if I make wudhu (ablution) at night or day, I will not stop until I perform nawafil as much as Allah grants me".

Nabi never instructed Bilal to do this.


4. There is no single report that Nabi ever say, "Radi'Allahu anhu/ha/hum" after the mention of any Sahabah, despite the fact that Allah used the phrase in the Qur'an and Nabi himself recited it. The obvious is Nabi never practised or instruct us to practice it.

# We only use our God given common sense to used it to honour the sahabah based on the established principle, being found in the Qur'an.

# Same goes for the phrase, "rahimallah".

Newnas:


@bolded, please clarify what you mean by "that has proof in Islam"
are you saying that sahabah can agree on something and that thing will not have proof in Islam?
please explain.

# A. You once mentioned quoting Ahmad Ibn Hanbali that to get the right understanding of Quran and Sunnah, one must follow the exact understanding of the Sahabah.

# B. Then here you are boldly saying the sahabah cannot agree on wrong doing.


1. Ahlu Sunnah as a whole might agree with that statement (A) but apart from the fact that there is no evidence for it, that has also grossly contradict several ahadith. Here's one where Nabi mentioned in a clear term whom to follow for guidance:


"...For, whoever lives among you shall witness after me
several disagreements. Therefore, follow my Sunnah and
the sunnah of the khulafa, who are rashidun and
mahdiyun. Bite onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of innovated matters. For, verily, every innovation is a bid’ah; and verily, every bid’ah is misguidance.”


This hadith can be found in Sunan of Abi Dawud, “Kitab al-Sunnah (model behavior of the Prophet); Book 42, Hadith 12; Book 41, Hadith 4590
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42


# Nabi did not only mentioned and ordered the Ummah to follow Khulafah, but even described their specific characteristics to be rashidun and mahdiyun. So, why should we follow " the Sahabah" as if all of them were khulafah, who were rashidun and mahdiyun.

Shaykh Dr. al-Fawzan explains in his Sharah Aqeedah Wastia, pg. 165: “The Rashid is he who knows the truth and practices it. His opposite is the deviant, and that is he who knows the truth but does not practice it.His statement (mahdiyin) means those whom Allah guided to the truth.”


# We know for a fact that some sahabah apostatised after Nabi, and innovated into Islam severely.


# The so-called AhluSunnah guy might be a jerk, but he's articulate here saying about following sahabah, "that has proof in Islam" - meaning anything that anyone of them bring must have proof in Islam.

There are records where a Khalifah ordered people to do innovation, and some of his fellow sahabah refused to do it. For example, Uthman forbid people performing Umra and Hajj together. Here's his fellow sahabah who opposed him:

Imam al-Nasai documents:

Ibrahim ibn Yahqub – Uthman ibn Umar – Ismail ibn Muslim – Muhammad ibn Wasi – Mutarif:

Imran ibn Hussein said to me, “The Messenger of Allah performed "Umrah and Hajj together, and we performed 'Umrah and Hajj together with him, and whoever says anything different, that is his own personal opinion.”

Source: Sunan al-Nasai, kitab al-Hajj, Book 24, Hadith 2739 www.sunnah.com/nasai/24


In fact, Ali's word was while replying Uthman was: “I will never abandon the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, on the word of anyone from mankind

emekaRaj:


There are diferent type of kashf though.

You dey mind him. See, ibn tayimiya said what you just said here. But this brother shied away from commenting on that. They are just threading religion. They don't know it just like self proclaimed alhusunnah guy

@albaqir

No one could have said it better. One funny thing is that, we all know the truth but so far its coming from an ‘opponent‘, we wont want to accept it out of sentiment.

GOD is the TRUTH!!! Q31:30

We should learn to take the message & leave the messanger.

ikupakuti:
#As reported by MUSLIM: hadith #1017 also reported by ibn majah, tirmidhi from JABIR bn ABDULLAH:-

He who INTRODUCED some good practice in ISLAM which was followed after him, he would be ensured of reward like one who follow it without their reward being diminish in any respect, also whoever INTRODUCES a bad pracrice in ISLAM will be ensure of the punishment of those who follow it.

You should have given us the Arabic version of the hadeeth, سن was used, not بدع so translating it the way you did is rather deceptive, the correct thing should be "enact", that's by the way tho....

A consequence of this hadeeth is the hadeeth of Abu hurayrah: Whoever calls people to true guidance, will have a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without that detracting from their reward in the slightest. And whoever calls people to misguidance, will have a (burden of) sin equal to that of those who follow him, without that detracting from their sins in the slightest.’

It becomes clearer what the intended meaning of that hadeeth putting it in its right context, if you are interested in reading the full thing, here https://sunnah.com/muslim/12 check hadeeth 1017a

From the full context we see that the sub narrator said:

Then a person from among the Ansar came there with a money bag which his hands could scarcely lift; in fact, they could not (lift). Then the people followed continuously, till I saw two heaps of eatables and clothes, and I saw the face of the Messenger (ﷺ) glistening, like gold (on account of joy). The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: He who sets a good precedent in Islam, there is a reward for him for this (act of goodness) and reward of that also who acted according to it subsequently, without any deduction from their rewards; and he who sets in Islam an evil precedent, there is upon him the burden of that, and the burden of him also who acted upon it subsequently,

Nowhere did the messenger mentioned good precedent as act of worship.

So applying that hadeeth, one who plants a tree and others followed him in that will have a his reward and those who followed him....

The prophet was clear cut when he said: وإياكم ومحدثات الأمور فإن كل محدثة بدعة وكل بدعة ضلالة

Beware of newly invented matters, for verily EVERY newly invented matter is bidah and EVERY bidah is misguidance.....

This is clear cut, use clear cut narrations to explain ambiguous ones, those who do this are the honest ones....

First of all, in this vs you quoted as proof for that IMAM, GOD clearly didnt knock them for the bid‘a of MONKERY but for their lack of staying true to it.
The anecdote of MARYAM (as) points to the fact that MONKERY is not a bad BID‘A in their sharia for NABI ZAKARIAH(as) was her guide in it Q3:35-37, So, in reference to that hadith up there, thats bid‘a hassanah. Meaning a path can be invented to please ALLAH so far it conforms with the sharia. I can provide a list of such from the sahaba, both before & after the demise of the NABI(saw). So, you are yet to backup your understanding of bid‘a.

Since you agree with the definition of bidah to be an act done in the religion to seek closeness to Allaah which was not legislated for them, we are making progress....

Now, the last part you want to use as your reason for "bidah hasanah" I say, the shareeah of Muhammad is different from the shareeah of eesa, what is prohibited in ours might be allowed in theirs and what was prohibited for them might be allowed in ours, example the Jews don't stay home, eat, and so on with their wives when they are menstruating, that's their shareeah, in ours you can do everything with her except intercourse...

Now as for innovation in the shareeah of Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, he said


وإياكم ومحدثات الأمور فإن كل محدثة بدعة وكل بدعة ضلالة

He also said

من عمل عملا ليس عليه امرنا فهو رد

Another very beautiful hadeeth is

ما تركت شيئا يقربكم الى للله الا امرتكم به

I have not left anything at all that will take you closer to Allaah except that I have commanded (enjoined) you with it....

That's a clear cut hadeeth! No single thing, you see that, no single thing will take you close to Allaah except that the prophet explained it....so if you do any other thing you've not been commanded with فهو رد it will be rejected....not only that it will take you far from Allaah and close to shaytaan, because it's misguidance.....

The hadith of bukhari in his book of TIBB from ABU SAID L KHUDRI, where some sahaba INNOVATED the recitation of fatiha to cure a scorpion sting (helping people is an act of worship that attracts reward) & was commended by the NABI(saw) points to fact that the NABI(saw) didnt reject the act of ABU ISRAII based on INNOVATION.

Actually that falls into sunnatut taqreeriyyah.......an action done in front of the prophet without him objecting it, as for today that the prophet is no longer alive, who will legislate it for them as permissible?

#So, you are yet to link that unanimous concensus of the scholars to kitab & sunnah as demanded by Q4:59, that IMAM‘S opinion on bid‘a doesnt tally with the vs you quoted.

It does, another hadeeth is

من احدث في امرنا هذا ما ليس منه فهو رد

It was made clear specifically that whoever innovates into this matter of ours which is not part of it, will have it rejected....

It was specific, so the matter here is Islam and we use Islam to get close to Allaah, innovating into it means you want to get close to Allaah through that means and what did the prophet said about that?

وإياكم ومحدثات الأمور فإن كل محدثة بدعة وكل بدعة ضلالة

All newly invented matter is bidah(which conforms to the definition of imam shaatibee) and all bidah is misguidance.....

Remember the prophet said:

ما تركت شيئا يقربكم الى للله الا امرتكم به

UMAR (ra) is the father of bid‘a hassanah.

Umae used that in the linguistic sense, not the shareeah meaning and what points to that is the fact that, the prophet himself led taraweeh, so can you call that bidah into this matter of ours?

^^^

"Quran competetion", is there any dalil for it?. But we do it today and give prices. Thiis is bid'ah(innovation). Is it bid'at hassanat or not?. Has this lead us to misguidance since it establishment in the 60s?.


Note, we dont care about mubah here in case you want to bring that up.

AlBaqir:


[b]DEDUCTION: Anything that Allah and His Nabi specifically forbid, it is outrightly Haram. And anything Allah and His Nabi did not mention, obviously they did not forget, nobody has the right to forbid it or tag it Bid'ah. This is where Ulama usually bring out opinion and ijtihad based on their understanding of Quran and Sunnah. However, their ijtihad is not bind (must) on anybody to follow.


1. For example, Tasbih (beads) for dhikr.

# Some say it is Bid'ah because Nabi did not use it. That he only used fingers. Our question is: did he forbid it?. Interestingly, some sahabah used pebbles, seeds of dates to count during dhikr.

The basics, the principle remain the same, that is Dhikr e.g Allahu Akbar 33 etc. How you get it done, its left to you.


# Some says, he asked one of his wives to use hands. Did he forbid the "beads" she was initially using or tagged it haram?

# Its a matter of if you are comfortable with fingers, used it. If you are not, use a device. Today we use Microphone, megaphone, loudspeaker to make adhan, and waasi. Those things (adhan, Quran, waasi) remain the same in their basics and principles. Microphone, loudspeaker etc just like Tasbih are just an aiding device to get the job done easily.


2. Surat al-Fatiha for shifa (cure).

In a popular sahih hadith Nabi sent some group of sahabah to a village...The head of the village was stung by a snake or scorpion(?). One of the sahabah recited surah Fatiha on the spot, and the man became healed. When they narrated this to Nabi, he only said with happiness and approval, "how did you know that works in such situation?!


# Nabi did not instruct that Sahabi to practice anything like that. The Sahabi only used his senses PERHAPS based on the basics and principles of the Qur'an that, " We have revealed the Qur'an, in it is cure, and mercy for the believers...".


3. Bilal was confronted by Nabi one day, and asked, "O Bilal, what have you engaged yourself in that I can hear your foot steps in al-Jannah". Bilal replied, "nothing, O Prophet, except that if I make wudhu (ablution) at night or day, I will not stop until I perform nawafil as much as Allah grants me".

Nabi never instructed Bilal to do this.

Even children in junior high would understand this simple analysis. But our people already has their mind stuck on any bida'a is Haram

emekaRaj:


Even children in junior high would understand this simple analysis. But our people already has their mind stuck on any bida'a is Haram

Did you know that i once gave them example cited by albaqir about sura fathia. They still go ahead like "bid'a is bid'a yet they have no dalil for "Quran competetion" which originated in Malaysia and championed by Saudi today. Saudis see it as good invention was the reason they stick to it. Why not reject that as innovation?. Instead they would bring up "mubah" in the matter

Empiree:
Did you know that i once gave them example cited by albaqir about sura fathia. They still go ahead like "bid'a is bid'a yet they have no dalil for "Quran competetion" which originated in Malaysia and championed by Saudi today. Saudis see it as good invention was the reason they stick to it. Why not reject that as innovation?. Instead they would bring up "mubah" in the matter

U sef, u get energy oo, and time. It's going to be an endless argument because its not like they dnt get it but they choose not to, because pride has gotten into them, they see it as losing.

emekaRaj:


U sef, u get energy oo, and time. It's going to be an endless argument because its not like they dnt get it but they choose not to, because pride has gotten into them, they see it as losing.

I know they are waste of time but it is good to charge at them sometimes to keep them within their limit

Abdelkabir: http://Sunnah.com/muslim/12 1017a

Dont joggle them. These are two different hadith, 2 different authors 2 different meanings!

1-that of abu huraira is to call to an already established act.
2-the on that link reads...set good PRECEDENT & that denote something new!

No where did the messanger mentioned good precedent as act of worship

Hmmm...are there some acts that are not of worship that pleases GOD & attract reward ? Think well b4 you answer this o with proof from kitab & sunnah, cos GOD wont give reward for an act that goes against his orders & the whole glory of religion is on obedience to his orders.

I have not left anything at all that will take you closer to allah except that I have commanded (enjoined) you with it....

Yeah! Very clear cut!

1-But did he forget to enjoin those who performed ‘sunnatut taqreeriyyah‘ in those acts ?

2-The other innovations started by the sahabas after his demise, who legislated it for them as permissible ? Where they wrong in respect to that clear cut hadith ? If not, what is the bases for there justification on those innovations ?

Abdelkabir:

من احدث فى أمرنا هذا ما ليس منه فهو رد

وإياكم و محدثات اﻷمور

#Can you please give a concise & comprehensive scope of what these words entail-: أمرنا & محادثات اﻷمور

#Is it only what came from the mouth of NABI (saw) ?

#Or including those that of that of sahabas with no precedents in sunnah ?

#Or including all that conforms with kitab & sunnah even if they were not documented & pls backup your replys with references.

#Was the NABI (as) instructing only his sahaba then only, not to accept new inventions or including later generations ? Meaning no more ‘sunnatul taqreeriyyah‘ for them after his demise ?

#As for UMAR (ra) you do not have to interprete for him. He himself knew what he started anew for him to make such remark. Its not about just leading taraweeh, before his innovation people were being led. And thats not the only innovation of his .

Alennsar:
jazakhallahu khaeran New.nas. BTW where is dat Shia guy dat recommend ruqya for me today? pls come and do Wat you know best oooo

# So, have you seen me?!

# Have you started your Ruqya therapy?

# What do you think I know how to do best?

Yes! bring all your points on. I love this thread

AlBaqir:

# So, have you seen me?!
# Have you started your Ruqya therapy?
# What do you think I know how to do best?

kikikikiki laughing in Greek. salam brother

Alennsar:


kikikikiki laughing in Greek. salam brother

Wa alaykum salam sister.

IN UNDERSTANDING OF THE ANTITHESIS: Completion of ISLAM & BID‘A

There are 3 major VIEWS held by MUSLIMS as to what the above antithesis really denotes.

#1: ONLY what the NABI (saw) SPECIFICALLY instructed to be done in RELIGION. This also include SUNNATU TAQREERIYYAH (acts done in his presence by the SAHABAS using their own personal sense of judgement, intuition based on their understanding of the DEEN) which the NABI (saw) gave approval for or never objected to.

Those who uphold this VIEW believe & maintain that, legislation on matters of DEEN are due to him only i.e his presence is needed for legislation. As such, his demise has truncated further legislations on religious matters & thats what COMPLETION OF DEEN means to them.

#2: The second group uphold the first VIEW & in addition, to what the SALAF did legislated upon after the demise of NABI (saw) which has no precedents in SUNNAH, even though those matters lack direct approval from him.

Those who subscribe to this VIEW believe & maintain that, legislations & interpretation of religion ended with the SALAF era & any understanding in DEEN MUST conform with that of the SALAF.

#3: The proponents of the third VIEW endorse the two aforementioned VIEWS & in addition, to all whatever conforms with KITAB & SUNNAH even if they werent SPECIFICALLY documented as having precedents in HADITHS & the practices of the SALAF.

I personally, subscribe to the third representation as being more in harmony with KITAB & SUNNAH. I believe the advocates of the first 2 VIEWS have alot of Questions to answer from the QURAN & SUNNAH to prove the feasibility of those VIEWS.

#I am going to highlight some of them. Pls, anyone who subscribe to any of the above 3 VIEWS can come in to support or oppose with backup evidence from KITAB & SUNNAH.

#IF you are going to quote a scholar, make sure his opinion is rooted in KITAB & SUNNAH & PLS, lets discuss within the ambit of understanding & civility.

APPROVAL ON FORMING OF OPINION


As far as I know,there is no where the NABI (saw) ever condemned the application of opinion in religious matters. He would rather criticize or condemn the ensuing judgement if it contradicts the KITAB & SUNNAH but not the application of opinion itself. This is a silent approval for personal IJTIHAD. Again, there is no where he ever said such rights are only limited to the SALAF only, whether during his lifetime or after or that it doesnt extend to later generations of MUSLIMS.

1:- HADITH OF UMMU HANI (ra)

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64

As narrated by UMMU HANI bnt ABI TALIB (ra) during the conquest of MAKKAH when she granted asylum to a KAFIR & her brother S. ALI (ra) decleared to kill him. She reported to the NABI (saw) who said ‘O UMMU HANI! We will grant asylum to the one whom you granted asylum‘.

The point here is that, both IMAM ALI & his sister (ra) used their personal opinion as to what is right with both‘s judgment contradicting. The NABI (saw) upheld one & cancled the other without quering them as to why they both decided to legislate on such sensitive religious matter on their own even while he was there with them

^^

Jazakallah khayran. The third view is what is widely held by many Muslims until this new methodology emerged in recent decades. The first and second views restrict many Islamic activities and progression. There are things are are not static at all in islam. Islam is to be understood with TIME since Quran was revealed to serve the past, present and future. This is the opinion of the majority.

To be understood with TME doesn't mean changing legislation or religion. For instance, salat will forever remain 5 daily salat and their number of rakat will never change. Same with Ramadan and zakat and hajj. We cant change their respective times. But other activities may evolve and must be in harmony with Sharia'. This is what many Muslims understood. But if we are to apply first and second views only, then, Islam would remain in 6 century mentality.

Bid'a comes to mind IF a muslim decides to make subh rakat from 2 to 3 or change zhur and asr from 4 to 5 or Maghrib from 3 to 4 or isha from 4 to 6 etc. This is bid'a. All other activities like Mawlud, walimot, group dhirk, group dua, all types of Islamic gathering are born out of necessity. We dont go about nabi didnt gather here and there, sahaba didnt gather here and there, therefore, it is bid'a if we do. Thats nonsense excuse me.

2:- HADITH OF IBN UMAR (ra)

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/13
As narrated by ibn umar (ra) whom his dad ordered to divorce a wife disliked by umar (ra). Ibn umar refused & mentioned it to NABI (saw) who supported the opinion of UMAR but never questioned UMAR on why he relied on his personal observation on whatever it may be to order a divorce nor did he (NABI) questioned ibn umar on why he refused to obey his dad initially.

3:- HADITH OF ABU SAI‘D AL-KHUDRI (ra)

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/76

As narrated by Sai‘d alkhudri, where one among a group of SAHABA treated a bite or sting with FATIHA after negotiating a pay for service by applying his saliva on the affected spot. They later refused the payment until they inquired from NABI (saw) whether accepting such payment is lawful but not whether utilizing FATIHA as a curer is. The NABI (saw) didnt object to or question both & even requested for a cut.

#4:-HADITH OF IBN JABAL (ra)

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/15
As narrated by ibn JABAL (ra) when the NABI (ra) dispatched him to YEMEN as governor, he was asked what would be his source of judgement to which he replied QURAN & then SUNNAH & if he couldnt find IN any of the 2 he would rely on his intelligence on deriving a ruling from the previous 2: and the NABI (saw) was pleased @ his response.

Some people tagged this hadith as DAEEF. Maybe on the basis of isnad but definitely not on the basis of matn. Cos if it was on the basis of matn, then we‘ll ask :

#Did the NABI (saw) ever sent some SAHABA to some certain province ? Yes!

#Without such interogation like that of ibn JABAL ever recorded, what would have being their source of judgement ? Definitly QURAN & then SUNNAH!

#What if no ruling is derived from both, will ‘ibn JABAL‘ have to race down to MADINA from YEMEN to get fatwa ?

#Is that how all the appointed governors after the NABI (saw) ran down to MADINA for IJMA from their respective locality ? NO!

# Was there any written constitution handed to any of them at the point of appointment ? No!

#Is it even possible for @least 5 Governors in their respective localities to pass an identical fatwa on an identical religious matter from their respective opinions ? Very hardly!

# But then, their fatwas will surely have one thing in common & thats conformity to KITAB & SUNNAH!