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Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 1:38pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
Wilgrea7: I couldn't disagree more. Eph 2:20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. The Church in particular and Christianity in general is built collectively on the apostles not just paul , the words of each apostle serve as interpretation for the words of Jesus. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 1:54pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
Ubenedictus:Paul didn't style himself to be an apostle to the gentiles Acts 9:15King James Version (KJV) 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 2:00pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
PastorAIO:Okay,may be i should just ask,what is wrong with Paul's teachings?.....,mention one |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:20pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
An2elect2:sorry the apostles not just Paul were the instrument Christ used to reach the gentiles and the remnant Jews. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 2:23pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
I don't see any contradiction between Paul's teachings and james' or with any Apostles........,as someone posted earlier,both Apostles meant same faith but used works here in different contexts,it is of a solid truth that works don't save but faith,otherwise Jesus' death would be in vain,I mean,He should have just left the law to do the work of salvation..........,If you read james' argument in context,it will be glaring he was just talking about professing christians,who claim to have faith,the faith that wrought no works in them.So it is simple,works do not save,that is,there must be an inward transformation(regeneration) in you first,this is done by no means of the will of man but of God,then follows faith in christ(which of course inevitable),and this faith will bring good works,must bring good works(this is to say the works testify the faith and not the reverse).lets see the chain again in order,God quickens/calls/draws a man first,then he seeks God,then he finds God(and as a result have faith in Him),then this faith produces good works. And you must know that no part in this chain pulls off. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:36pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
ITbomb:why does this sound funny. Why have you guys divided Jesus and his apostles.? Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 cor 3 |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by PastorAIO: 2:38pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
owoleola: Are you not following the thread? 1 Like |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Nobody: 2:40pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
owoleola:Can you tell us, if christians are saved by faith alone (that is without works) or by faith with works? |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:44pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
owoleola:And yet he still taught Jews. You are falling in the same dichotomy, no apostle taught gentiles alone or Jews alone, and yes that styling apostle of gentiles comes from the letters of Paul. As the above quote says paul was commission for both Jews and gentiles so were other apostles in matt 28. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:57pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
donteanz: Each apostle was a human being addressing a specific point to specific audience, this means that their points may seemingly Lord contradictory even though they arent. This is why it is important to note that the bible came out from a specific tradition and it makes the most sense in that tradition. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 3:02pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
PastorAIO:I think instead the Christianity taught by the apostles won. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 3:21pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
LoJ:Christians are saved by faith,and this faith wrought works(inseparable i.e i have a faith that produces works),different from christians are saved by faith and works(separable i.e i have faith and i have works).A concentrated acid burns because its a conc. acid,if it does not burn,its not a conc acid.........but not every substance that burns is a conc acid,and that is why the pharisees and those who try to establish their works miss it. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 4:13pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
I find this helpful,coined from desiringGod.org Too often we lack works. Maybe we are not praying, not forgiving someone, not crucifying selfishness to care for others, or not sharing the gospel. We know this is a serious problem, because James said that “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). What’s more serious than dead faith? But there’s a danger here in how we can read this verse. We can miss James’s point. We can think that since faith without works is dead, then if I lack works, I had better start working. I had better start praying, start forgiving, start caring more for others, start sharing the gospel. But that’s not what James is saying. James is saying that since faith without works is dead, then if there are no works, the problem is that to some extent, my faith is dead. And that to correct the problem my faith must be revived. A Heart Without a Pulse To see James’s point, imagine he had said that “a heart by itself, if it does not have a pulse, is dead.” So, if I have no pulse, what’s the problem? A dead heart. And what should I do to get a pulse? Try to revive my heart. If I try to make a pulse without reviving my dead heart, I might be able to create what looks like a pulse. But it won’t be a real pulse, because it won’t come from a living heart. In the same way, if I try to do works without reviving my dead faith, I might be able to create what looks like works. But they won’t be genuine works, because they won’t come from a living faith in Jesus’s person and work and his provision to be working in my working. Abiding and Bearing Jesus taught the same truth in John 15. He said every branch that abides in him will bear fruit (John 15:5). So, if I don’t bear fruit, the problem is that I’m not abiding. Which means the solution isn’t to try to bear fruit; the solution is to start abiding. Fruit comes from abiding. And works come from living faith. But how can faith be revived? Let’s say you don’t share the gospel because you fear what people might think of you. Since this is a lack of works, James would say the cause is dead faith. So how can you revive your faith? Trust His Power Faith is ultimately a supernatural work of God. So start by coming to Jesus Christ as you are, and trust his power to change your heart. Trust him as your redemption and perfect righteousness. Trust him as your Savior, Lord, and Treasure. Confess your lack of works. Receive fresh assurance that you are fully and freely forgiven through his death on the cross and by faith united to the living one who is your righteousness. Confess that your lack of works shows there is deadness in your faith. Ask God to revive, strengthen, and help your faith. Find Promises Then, to strengthen your faith, find which promises from God in the Scriptures you are not trusting. Lack of obedience is caused by not trusting God and his promises. So think about what commands you are not obeying, and what promises from God motivate that obedience. Here is a promise I have used to battle my fear of sharing the gospel. Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets. (Luke 6:22–23) Jesus promises that if I am insulted for his sake, I will be rewarded in heaven with even more joy in him. So if fear of being insulted keeps me from telling people about Christ, it’s because I’m not trusting this promise. I’m not trusting that if I’m insulted, God will reward me with more joy in Christ. Or I’m not trusting that joy in Christ will infinitely make up for the pain of being insulted. Or both. That lack of trust is what James means by dead faith. So how can dead faith be revived? Pray Over the Promises Faith comes as we hear God’s word (Romans 10:17), the good news of what Jesus has accomplished for us, and as we pray for God to help our unbelief (Mark 9:24). So, ask God to help your unbelief, renew your rest in Jesus’s person and work, and pray over promises that motivate whatever works you are lacking. So, for example, if you are struggling with evangelism, pray over the promise of Luke 6:22–23. Think deeply about it. Maybe pray over other passages that reinforce that promise, like Matthew 28:18–20 and 1 Peter 4:14. Keep doing this in reliance upon God until he strengthens your faith so you believe that if you are insulted God will reward you with more joy in Christ, and that joy in Christ will far surpass the pain of any insults. Feel the difference? When the Holy Spirit shows up, your faith is no longer dead. It’s been revived. And your revived faith will make you want to share the gospel with others. Because you know that any insults you receive will bring more joy in Christ forever. We wouldn’t try to create a pulse without reviving the heart. So don’t try to create works without reviving your faith. Steve Fuller is lead pastor of Grace Church Abu Dhabi and writes at Living by Faith. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by In4matic: 6:34pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
owoleola: I can show you clear deviations from christs message. And also historical records that showed paulinism developed distinctly from christianity until much later
Can you quote ANY part of the bible (outside the letters of paul) that corroborates the above?
I'm not aware paul was an appostle. There are only 12 appostles. At the death of Judas, Mathias was chosen after appointment AND PRAYERS. When was paul appointed?
Please what's that 'legalism'? Never heard of it. I'm talking scripture here. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Wilgrea7(m): 7:20pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
Ubenedictus: Ephesians was written by Paul.. nevertheless.. pastor Aio has cleared a misconception.. please refer to his post.. also... the church should have been built on Jesus .. not the apostles.. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by In4matic: 7:32pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
Ken4Christ: Lol. So Christ himself is now the confusionist because what he taught is glaringly different from what paul taught? Be careful not to ADD TO THE GOSPEL. For what christ said is self explanatory without any vagueness. Paul used the gospel of christ to spread christianity in anyway possible so far as he converts the unconverted. Even he himself admits to using shrewd means but he shrugs it off by saying "so what? So far as the gospel is preached" Evang paul built, but not d blueprint that christ had in mind. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by In4matic: 7:55pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
Also Ken4Christ, I want to draw your attention to a misconception also propagated by paul. The misconception is this galatians you quoted that says "cursed is anyone that hangeth on a tree". If you read the law it is gotten from in the old testemant it was referring to SUICIDE! Cursed is anyone who hangs his own self on a tree. To take a life he did not give himself. So, - Did jesus hang himself? - Was jesus hung? (you know what hanging means now? By the neck? I'm sure you do) 3. Was it a tree or a crucifix? (crucifix is a roman means of torture consisting of crossed wooden beams to which prisoners/ offenders are IMPALED with nails until they BLEED TO DEATH). This is a far cry from hanging where a rope strangles the neck. Hanging is a quicker death. Christ lasted over 3 hours on it ruling out that he was hung. Peter and james were also Cruxified. Peter upside down and james diagonally. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ken4Christ: 10:10pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
In4matic: Apostle Paul did not propagate any misconception. He quoted what the Law said. And the Law was not necessarily referring to someone who committed suicide but to a criminal judged by the law. Jesus took our sins upon him and for that moment, he was the criminal in the mind of justice. Be hung on a tree is not limited to using a rope. The cross was made from a tree. Jesus was hung on the cross with nails. He became a curse for the Jews so they can be redeemed from the curse of the law. The verses below is proof that the law was not talking about suicide. Deuteronomy 21:22-23, 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by malvisguy212: 10:14pm On Aug 02, 2017 |
PastorAIO:you got it wrong bro, if you don't understand context you ask, when the Bible say study to show they self approved, it mean you must know the author intention and knew the audience. yes, same message, but their audience are DIFFERENT, Paul audience is the hearthen while James audience is the jews. Paul message to the hearthen: you cannot be save by work. while James message to the Jews: you cannot show that you are save without work. Paul to the hearrhen: How can a person be saved? By faith alone (Rom. 3:28) James to the Jews: How can a person show that he is save ? how can he show his faith ? by work ( James 2:18) Paul: a person is not save by work ( Paul reject work as the mean of salvation) James: a save person will performed good work, ( James understood work as the RESULT of salvation) a save person does good work because he IS save, NOT because he WANTED to be save, he is ALREADY save. both Paul and James turn to the life of Abraham to illustrate their point. the emphasis Paul make was that Abraham put his trust on God, thus, Abraham was justified by faith alone. Abraham was NOT justified by the work of the law, but by faith when he believe God. james emphasized on that work that is outwardly shown and demonstrate ( the evidence of a saving Faith) James 2:18 say : But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." SHOW me your faith without deeds, and I will show you MY FAITH BY MY DEED. this is because Paul say faith is a personal belief that take place in the heart and mind and cannot be seen, God knows our faith but their is no way other people can recognized it unless is being shown by good work. while Paul is dealing with the necessity of faith with God. James is concern of such faith before men and how the believers can prove the evidence of their faith. PAUL AND JAMES COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER. 1 Like |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by malvisguy212: 8:24am On Aug 03, 2017 |
LoJ:are you you're a Christian before you convert to atheist ? you are mixing the context bro. Paul audience is the hearthen why James audience is the Jews. a Christian is save base on the work of Christ , ro prove the evidence of his faith, he must show his work, this is what James is saying. Paul is telling the hearthen that their work is of no use if they did not have faith in the finish work of Christ. James and Paul complement complem each other . read my reply to pastoraio. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Nobody: 10:09am On Aug 03, 2017 |
malvisguy212:I was a pastor/prophet and now I am no atheist. Where do you source your belief that paul wrote exclusively to the gentiles and James exclusively to the Jews? Why not answer a simple closed question by a yes or no? Are christians (whether Jews or gentiles) saved by faith alone regardless of their works? Yes or No? Greetings. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by malvisguy212: 10:39am On Aug 03, 2017 |
LoJ:you are a pastor before ? but you are not scriptural sound . the Romans are not Jews, they are the hearthen, Paul condemn their work because of lack of faith, good work done by an unsave man cannot earn him salvation, for salvation is something ONLY God can do. in Paul context, he reject work as the means of salvation. work done by the un save are meritorious work, that is, work done try to merit or earn salvation. salvation is of they Lord ( eph 2:10). in Galatians 5:6 paul agree with James when he taught that good work must accompany a saving faith. the reason why Paul use Abraham is because Abraham believe God when he was call. the reason why James use Abraham is because Abraham faith was tested. so James complement Paul. your question does not make sense because you mixed the two context, you assumed that their audience is one which is wrong. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Nobody: 11:16am On Aug 03, 2017 |
malvisguy212: Do you mean the Book of romans applies only to the romans? Great! Then the whole Bible applies to none of us, since it was not directed to any of us. 1 Like |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Ubenedictus(m): 11:43am On Aug 03, 2017 |
Wilgrea7: 1. Your Ephesians was written by Paul and it clearly says that the apostles not just paul form the foundation of the Church. 2. Which misconception did pastor Aio clear, I cant fid it. 3. The bible says the apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built and Jesus is the chief conner stone. If you disagree go and argue with eph 2:20, not with me. Sorry. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 2:44pm On Aug 03, 2017 |
LoJ:Don't be serious with your jokes |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by owoleola: 2:48pm On Aug 03, 2017 |
malvisguy212:That is just it brother,and someone will still not understand this,nawa o |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Wilgrea7(m): 3:56pm On Aug 03, 2017 |
Ubenedictus:the early apostles had some differing views.. not all accepted Paul's doctrine.. there were different denominations of Judaism plus other religions... people who converted had a little bit of that knowledge transferred... but there was somewhat friction betweeen the apostles and paul.. as well as some other unnamed people 2. Which misconception did pastor Aio clear, I cant find it. [/quote] his comment is on this thread.. somewhere close to my first comment 3. The bible says the apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built and Jesus is the chief conner stone. If you disagree go and argue with eph 2:20, not with me. Sorry. the “bible" does not say.. the writers are the ones that say.. the writers may be lying or telling the truth.. but then.. that is an argument for another day |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by malvisguy212: 10:34am On Aug 04, 2017 |
LoJ:you are the hearthen, the book of Romans is directed at you and your kind. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by GodsMopol: 10:43am On Aug 04, 2017 |
donteanz: Well, what do you feel Paul said that contradict what Jesus said. Verses, lemme try to link them with together. I believe Pauls teachings are grounded on what Jesus not only that, Paul spent enough time explaining what the death and resurrection of Jesus has done to the Christians |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by Nobody: 11:05am On Aug 04, 2017 |
malvisguy212:Thank you. Greetings |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by malvisguy212: 11:40am On Aug 04, 2017 |
PastorAIO:faith is not alone, work is the evidence of a saving faith. work in this in this context is not the means of salvation because the save is already saved, when he does good work, he is only proving the evidence of his faith OUTWARDLY. Galatians 5:6 say " For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith EXPRESSING itself in love." James and Paul agreed here. Paul: " when you have faith in Christ Jesus" . James: " you must express the faith in love" a saving faith is accompanied by good work. |
Re: Between Jesus And Paul, Who Founded Christianity And It Doctrines. by PastorAIO: 2:57pm On Aug 07, 2017 |
malvisguy212: As indeed Abraham attempted to sacrifice his son as a demonstration of his faith, a demonstration without which the faith is dead... Can we also say that the act of circumcision is a demonstration of Faith, a act without which we know that the Faith is dead? |
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